176 - Artifact - Jay Gilligan talks creating a show with Erik Aaberg

What happens when you have a clear artistic vision for a new circus school show, but the funding catalog expires, the gatekeepers want something “easy to book,” and the words you use accidentally make it sound like a museum? Captain Frodo sits down with Jay Gilligan to unpack the very real behind-the-scenes story of making Artifact, a contemporary circus and juggling performance built around historical objects, natural history vibes, and the strange power of letting kids experience “real art” in a school gym or library.We talk through why the Swedish school show market matters, how public cultural funding shapes what gets made, and why circus performers can feel both grateful and trapped by the system. Jay breaks down his company’s signature structure of short vignettes and strong visual images, the recurring audience comment “you didn’t do anything,” and the constant challenge of translating an abstract live experience into a concrete pitch that producers and teachers can instantly understand.Then the creation story turns messy in the best way: a bold interactive idea gets rejected on semantics, meetings slowly erode the plan, budget gets spent early, and the team has to commit anyway. The payoff is a premiere that validates the original instinct, plus a practical tool you can steal for your own creative work: gate one (presenters and administrators), gate two (the audience), and gate three (the performer’s need to enjoy the show). Subscribe, share this with a maker friend, and leave a review if you want more honest craft talk from the world of circus, magic, and showmanship.Support the show...After a long abscence our Merch Shop is back! Check out t-shirts, hoddies, and hats! Show yourself as a Follower of the Way of the Showman.You can also "listen" to the Way of the Showman at youtube.If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to  contact me about anyhthing ou can reach me on [email protected] can find out more on the Way of the Showman website.Follow the Way of the Showman on Instagram.If you're compelled to suport the showes and have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

Free tickets should fill a theater, right? Then why do so many “sold out” charity nights play to rows of empty seats, and why do artists keep returning to ticket price as a stand-in for value? Jay Gilligan and I pick up our Malmö hotel-room conversation and follow a single thought experiment, money is no object, until it forces us to talk about the real engine of live performance: commitment.We dig into audience psychology and show business mechanics, from the notorious “scam show” model that oversells seats because sponsors buy write-offs, to the awkward truth that a free ticket is easy to abandon when the weather turns. From there we explore practical alternatives that create real investment without turning art into a cold transaction: scarcity, waiting lists, social responsibility, and the subtle difference between an obligation and a genuine desire to be there.Then we widen the lens to creative process and showmanship. We talk necessity as an artistic discipline: reading a city, understanding what people carry into the room, and making small tweaks that help the same material land with more force. We also unpack repetition, “work in progress” labeling, premieres, and the internal versus external conversation, where every night is still evolving for the performer even when the audience deserves the full experience. If you care about live shows, circus, juggling, magic, theater, or arts marketing, this one is a deep dive into how value is made in the space between performer and crowd.Subscribe for more conversations, share this with a friend who makes or loves live performance, and leave a review with your take: what actually makes you commit to a night out?Support the show...After a long abscence our Merch Shop is back! Check out t-shirts, hoddies, and hats! Show yourself as a Follower of the Way of the Showman.You can also "listen" to the Way of the Showman at youtube.If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to  contact me about anyhthing ou can reach me on [email protected] can find out more on the Way of the Showman website.Follow the Way of the Showman on Instagram.If you're compelled to suport the showes and have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

You can feel the difference between a performer who “does tricks” and a performer who builds a world. We sit down with Malin Nilsson to get inside that world building process: how stagecraft, mentors, and sharp editing turn variety magic into something that feels inevitable, alive, and deeply personal.We talk about the practical psychology of live audiences and why context changes everything. When people buy tickets and come to your theater, you earn a rare kind of freedom: you can be poetic, quiet, political, strange, or tender, because the crowd chose you on purpose. But when you’re booked for corporate events, weddings, and festivals, the job is different, and the showmanship has to be different too. We break down how to match pacing, clarity, and emotional tone to what the room actually needs without watering down your craft.Then we get into the creative engine behind Marlon’s signature style: the wand in the boot, hat manipulation, classic magic archetypes, and the question every long-term artist eventually faces: how does your character age with you? We also dig into collaboration, including what changes when you find a creative partner who can take your material from good to great through ruthless, loving editing.Finally, we go behind the curtain on the touring reality most audiences never consider: suitcases, weight limits, lost bags, prop redesign, and why “packs small and plays big” is not a slogan but a survival skill for working magicians and variety performers.If you enjoy smart conversations about showmanship, stagecraft, performance design, and the creative life, subscribe, share this with a performer friend, and leave us a review.Support the show...After a long abscence our Merch Shop is back! Check out t-shirts, hoddies, and hats! Show yourself as a Follower of the Way of the Showman.You can also "listen" to the Way of the Showman at youtube.If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to  contact me about anyhthing ou can reach me on [email protected] can find out more on the Way of the Showman website.Follow the Way of the Showman on Instagram.If you're compelled to suport the showes and have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

When the world feels like it’s burning, making a show can start to feel absurd and even selfish. We sit with that discomfort and ask the question out loud: what is the purpose of magic, theater, and live performance when war headlines and daily suffering are only a scroll away? The honest answer is messy, but it leads to something solid: art, culture, sport, and shared stories are part of what makes life worth defending in the first place. I’m joined by Swedish magician and folk-circus force Malin Nilsson, and our conversation moves from big moral pressure to practical creative craft. We talk about the weird psychological effect of instant news, the “impotence” of caring about tragedies you can’t influence, and the climate guilt that comes with a touring life built on flights and constant movement. We also explore whether environmental themes can live inside an act in a way that still feels like showmanship rather than a lecture. Then we get delightfully nerdy about building stronger shows. Malin explains why she now thinks of a magic show more like a concert than a theater play: pacing, contrast, short bits and long bits, talk between “songs,” and the performer as the through line. And yes, there’s also a true story involving a real farm goat, fake horns, and a watch steal that teaches the painful beauty of simplifying an overbuilt idea. If you enjoy thoughtful conversations about showmanship, performance structure, and making meaningful art in hard times, subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review with a few words about what hit you most.LINKS:Find out more about Malin Nilsson here.See Malin's act from Penn & Teller's Fool Us here.Support the show...After a long abscence our Merch Shop is back! Check out t-shirts, hoddies, and hats! Show yourself as a Follower of the Way of the Showman.You can also "listen" to the Way of the Showman at youtube.If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to  contact me about anyhthing ou can reach me on [email protected] can find out more on the Way of the Showman website.Follow the Way of the Showman on Instagram.If you're compelled to suport the showes and have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

A crowd cheering can feel like love, right up until it wrecks the timing of the act. From a Malmö hotel room while props are being prepped, we dig into a surprisingly deep question: what does a performer owe an audience, and what does an audience unknowingly take away from a performer when they bring their own rhythm into the room? We talk about clapping, pacing, silence, and why comedy and juggling depend on the artist setting the beat.Then we zoom out into the bigger life problem of being a working circus artist. Stepping off the normal career track means you often have to explain yourself, defend your choices, and prove the work is real. We get honest about the economics of performing arts, why circus pricing can be wildly different from music gigs, and how easy it is for “the job” to swallow the joy that made you start in the first place. We also wrestle with the messy overlap between hobby, identity, and profession when your curiosity is also your paycheck.The conversation turns into a practical thought experiment with real creative stakes: if money were no object, what would your artistic practice look like? We land on building a team, carving out time, and designing small theatre experiences where the audience is not anonymous. Along the way we take on the attention economy, algorithm-driven distraction, and the idea that the most radical act today might be a room full of people sharing attention on purpose.If you care about live performance, audience connection, juggling, circus, creative work, or making art inside entertainment, this one goes straight to the core. Subscribe, share with a friend who makes things, and leave a review so more listeners can find the show.Support the show...After a long abscence our Merch Shop is back! Check out t-shirts, hoddies, and hats! Show yourself as a Follower of the Way of the Showman.You can also "listen" to the Way of the Showman at youtube.If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to  contact me about anyhthing ou can reach me on [email protected] can find out more on the Way of the Showman website.Follow the Way of the Showman on Instagram.If you're compelled to suport the showes and have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

The brutal part of juggling isn’t the hard trick. It’s the simple demand that never changes: once the object leaves your hand, you either catch it or you don’t. From a snowy, sleety Malmö cabaret week at Victoria Theater, we sit down in a hotel room surrounded by ribbons, feathers, and confetti while Jay Gilligan rolls his legendary Ivar Balls, and we ask the mid-career question that every performer eventually faces: does life actually get easier, or do you just get better at carrying it? We get practical about performance pressure, stage presence, and why technical mastery doesn’t erase the feeling of risk. Jay talks about building a professional “floor” where a truly bad show becomes rare, not because you’re perfect, but because you’ve earned tools, timing, and recovery instincts. We also dig into the creative process of making new work, where everything feels equally important at first, then slowly reveals a hierarchy as you perform it again and again. If you self-produce, you’ll recognize the trap: props, music, lighting, marketing, and logistics all scream for attention until the piece finally tells you what it’s really about. Then we widen the lens to the touring life and the human cost: being away from family, sitting alone in hotel rooms, aging into different limits, and the pandemic’s wake-up call that “I can always fall back on street shows” might be a comforting story more than a plan. Underneath it all is a bigger question about meaning, identity, and what work gives us besides money, especially when the end starts to feel closer than the beginning. If this conversation hits home, subscribe, share it with a friend who makes things for a living, and leave a review with the part that stayed with you.Support the show...After a long abscence our Merch Shop is back! Check out t-shirts, hoddies, and hats! Show yourself as a Follower of the Way of the Showman.You can also "listen" to the Way of the Showman at youtube.If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to  contact me about anyhthing ou can reach me on [email protected] can find out more on the Way of the Showman website.Follow the Way of the Showman on Instagram.If you're compelled to suport the showes and have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

You can feel it when an act is more than a list of tricks, but why does that feeling happen? I sit down with Menno van Dyke, artistic director of Circusstad Festival in Rotterdam, to dissect one of my favorite examples of contemporary circus craft: Juggling Tango, his long running collaboration with his wife Emily, a dancer. What starts as a conversation about career beginnings quickly turns into a deep dive on how showmanship, choreography, and structure turn technique into story. Menno shares how he moved from a youth circus in Amsterdam to Fratellini in Paris, including an ambitious plan to juggle on a galloping horse and the practical reasons it didn’t survive the real world of venues, touring, and contracts. From there we track the shift toward building a portable solo juggling act, winning at Monte Carlo’s young artist festival, and working across traditional circus and the German variety scene. Then we get granular on the creative process behind Juggling Tango: choosing Astor Piazzolla, building a solo that transforms into a duo, and solving the brutal problem of making eye contact while keeping juggling solid. We talk timing, personal space, risk management, hidden spare props, and what happens when a ball drops but the music and your partner’s choreography won’t wait. We also explore endings, why a finale can’t be topped, and how acts evolve like living organisms across decades while the circus industry itself keeps changing. If you enjoy smart conversations about circus act structure, performance choreography, juggling, tango, and what makes a piece feel timeless, subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review so more listeners can find the show.LINKS:You can find information about the Juggling Tango act here.You can see a filmed version of it here.And this is a link to the Circusstad festival where Menno is the artistic director. If you click it you will currently (03/26) see me, the incomparable Captain Frodo on the front page.Support the show...After a long abscence our Merch Shop is back! Check out t-shirts, hoddies, and hats! Show yourself as a Follower of the Way of the Showman.You can also "listen" to the Way of the Showman at youtube.If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to  contact me about anyhthing ou can reach me on [email protected] can find out more on the Way of the Showman website.Follow the Way of the Showman on Instagram.If you're compelled to suport the showes and have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

I’m joined by my good friend Menno van Dyke, artistic director of Circusstad Festival in Rotterdam, for a conversation that starts with a recent circus trip to Stockholm and quickly turns into a masterclass on how audiences decide what to believe.We unpack a museum-style juggling show that uses archives, artifacts, and history to pull kids deeper into the craft and to give adults a new way to watch. From there we get honest about the downside of that same technique: skepticism. When the stakes look too high, some viewers assume it’s all a story, which leads to a bigger question about showmanship, credibility, and why “real” physical skills sometimes need more proof than you’d expect.Then Menno takes us behind the scenes of contemporary circus festival programming and how Circusstad Festival Rotterdam helped build a stronger Dutch circus field by creating opportunities for graduates, inviting international companies, and producing new work like a gala night and a family freak show. We finish with the topic we can’t stop nerding out about: the seven minute act. We talk structure, dramaturgy, and why short acts can be harder than full shows, plus how a personal circus video archive becomes a living library for anyone who wants to see what makes great acts endure.Subscribe, share this with a fellow circus lover, and leave a review so more listeners can find the show.LINKS:You can find information about the Juggling Tango act here.You can see a filmed version of it here.And this is a link to the Circusstad festival where Menno is the artistic director. If you click it you will currently (03/26) see me, the incomparable Captain Frodo on the front page.Support the show...After a long abscence our Merch Shop is back! Check out t-shirts, hoddies, and hats! Show yourself as a Follower of the Way of the Showman.You can also "listen" to the Way of the Showman at youtube.If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to  contact me about anyhthing ou can reach me on [email protected] can find out more on the Way of the Showman website.Follow the Way of the Showman on Instagram.If you're compelled to suport the showes and have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

What if a performance could borrow your memories and hand them back changed? We dive into the hidden link between music, juggling, and dance by exploring the brain’s precuneus—the region that lights up when art stops being “out there” and becomes personal. When you like a piece of music, your brain flips from hearing to identifying. That same switch can flip for movement arts, turning clean patterns and intentional transitions into visual music that feels like your own story.I share why difficulty and risk are only the front door—and how depth begins when patterns breathe long enough for the audience to anticipate change and feel it in their gut. We talk about intrusion versus belonging: why unwanted sound feels like tampering, and why trust, pacing, and context invite people into a receptive state. From a tightwire’s held breath to a 40-minute pole sequence, the work is the same—sustain intention, reveal structure, let the audience do the meaning-making their brain is built for.We also get practical. How do you help non-experts read complex movement the way they read music? Offer onramps. Start with motifs. Pair gestures with sound that supports the narrative. Use language that points without pinning. And above all, commit to flow—because a single drop or restart can break identification the way a pianist stopping mid-phrase can eject you from the piece. When connection holds, even familiar phrases like follow your dreams shed their cliché and land as real prompts for action.Call it showmanship, visual music, or embodied storytelling—the test is simple: did it move the watcher? If the answer is yes, they’ll leave with new memories that feel self-authored, which is the quiet magic of live art. If this resonates, tap follow, share the episode with someone who loves performance, and drop a review to tell us the last time a show truly changed you.Support the show...After a long abscence our Merch Shop is back! Check out t-shirts, hoddies, and hats! Show yourself as a Follower of the Way of the Showman.You can also "listen" to the Way of the Showman at youtube.If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to  contact me about anyhthing ou can reach me on [email protected] can find out more on the Way of the Showman website.Follow the Way of the Showman on Instagram.If you're compelled to suport the showes and have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

Pain stunts can shock anyone. The real question is: how do you turn shock into something people actually want to come back for? I sit down again with Hoverfiel, the Norwegian pioneer behind Pain Solution, to talk about the hard-earned craft of pain-proof performance and why “keeping it real” is more than a slogan. We get into what happens when you refuse illusions, build shows around music cues, and design an act you can carry solo in a gig economy without watering down the material. From there, we dig into the part many sideshow and performance art fans never hear: character work. Hoverfiel explains why relying on puke-and-pass-out reactions is a dead end, and how comedy and tension release can make extreme acts accessible without making them fake. We also talk about pacing, including the deliberate choice to save blood for the end, bringing audiences along a journey where they laugh first, trust the performer, and only then choose how far they want to go. The conversation takes a sharp turn into the Fakir Academy, an unorthodox apprenticeship that starts with a referral from Child Protective Services. We unpack what it meant to mentor young people with self-harm histories, teach technical sideshow skills alongside creativity and structure, and meet self-harm with understanding instead of disgust. It’s a nuanced discussion about mental health, harm reduction, and the limits of what a performer can safely carry, even with the best intentions. If you care about sideshow history, fakir tradition, body modification culture, or the ethics of performance under real risk, you’ll find a lot to sit with here. Subscribe to The Way of the Showman, share this with a friend who loves performance craft, and leave a review so more curious listeners can find the show. What part of the conversation challenged you most?Support the show...After a long abscence our Merch Shop is back! Check out t-shirts, hoddies, and hats! Show yourself as a Follower of the Way of the Showman.You can also "listen" to the Way of the Showman at youtube.If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to  contact me about anyhthing ou can reach me on [email protected] can find out more on the Way of the Showman website.Follow the Way of the Showman on Instagram.If you're compelled to suport the showes and have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo