#1721 Jefferson and Adams: A Fresh Interpretation

Clay's conversation with historian Jim Rasenberger, the author of A Perfect Coincidence: The Extraordinary Friendship and Astonishing Deaths of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson and Adams collaborated on the Declaration of Independence in 1776, served together as diplomats in France for the United States in the 1780s, and cherished each other's friendship. Then the heated politics of their time came between them, until by 1800, they were enemies. Fortunately, they patched their friendship back together when they were safely retired from public life and died on the same day, the Fourth of July 1826, in lovely harmony, one in Virginia, the other in Massachusetts. This episode was recorded on May 22, 2026.

Host David Horton interviews the third president of the United States, Thomas Jefferson, about the days and weeks following the Fourth of July 1776. How quickly did the printed texts of the Declaration circulate? What was the information network of the time that enabled most Americans to read the Declaration (or hear it read in public) within a few weeks? The final copy had to go to an engraver to become the beautiful presentation document we still revere today. At the time, the Founders did not know that the Declaration would become the most important document in the history of human liberty. Meanwhile, George Washington came very close to losing the war — and perhaps the independence movement — after getting bottled up by the British on Manhattan. This episode was recorded on August 14, 2026.

Clay interviews David Osborne, author of the 1992 bestseller Reinventing Government, about the challenges of the American public education system. How well are we preparing young people for the mid-21st century? Why is the United States slipping behind many other nations in educational metrics? David has spent the last few years focused on how we can reinvent public education. His new documentary film Turnaround: The Reinvention of the New Orleans Public Education System chronicles the astonishing success of charter schools in historically problematic school districts. How much does the survival of our republic depend on better schools for all Americans? This episode was recorded on April 27, 2026.

David Horton sits down with Clay Jenkinson to retrace a whirlwind summer of travel, history and adventure. Clay's journey began in May with a trek to ancient Troy and continued across the American West, following the trail of Theodore Roosevelt. Along the way came an unusual Independence Day in Italy, stops in Las Vegas and California, and a meandering journey along the Missouri River in the footsteps of Lewis and Clark.  Clay and David explore the history, surprises and memorable side trips that shaped the journey — and respond to questions and comments from listeners. This episode was recorded on August 6, 2026.

Clay interviews Richard Battle of Texas about his series of books about the can-do spirit of America. Three of the books tell feel-good stories of character and gumption in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. Mr. Battle believes that the current malaise in the American spirit is caused by a weak education system that fails to tell the story of how much America has achieved and against what odds. When we are tempted to criticize America, Mr. Battle asks, "compared to what?" What other country has as much freedom and opportunity as still exists in the United States? He regards George Washington as the greatest American for holding the independence movement together against nearly impossible odds. He forgives Jefferson for his failures in the larger context of his achievement in the Declaration of Independence. This episode was recorded on July 21, 2026.  

Guest host Russ Eagle and Clay talk about the annual Lewis and Clark Cultural tour, just ended, after three days on the White Cliffs section of the Missouri River in Montana and then three days up in the Bitterroot Mountains on the Lolo or Nez Perce Trail. Twenty guests from around the U.S. and the world joined us for Russ' 14th Lewis and Clark tour and Clay's 26th. The weather was perfect. The river was cool, refreshing, and powerful. Clay and Russ discuss Thomas Jefferson, Lewis and Clark, Native American history, and the status and future of America's public lands. Lewis and Clark crossed the continent between 1803 and 1806. The Expedition is the most famous of all American exploration stories until at least the Apollo Moon landing program of the 1960s. The Lewis and Clark Cultural Tour is physically strenuous. Still, everyone made it up the Wendover Death March, and we had a joyous farewell banquet at Lochsa Lodge west of Missoula. This episode was recorded on August 3, 2026.  

Clay interviews Dr. Ben Abbott of Brigham Young University about the crisis of Great Salt Lake. Great Salt Lake is a terminal lake, which means that water comes in but does not flow out. It's a remnant of ancient Lake Bonneville. The volume of the lake is now down by 70% and the surface area it covers is down 60%. Abbott believes we are not more than half a dozen years from the lake's ecological collapse, which would severely damage the brine shrimp industry, expose a large number of toxic chemicals to the Utah winds with devastating effects on human health, and severely impair Utah's important winter ski industry. The good news is that Dr. Abbott believes we can solve this problem and that the people of Utah are sufficiently aware of the crisis to make the lifestyle changes (none dire) that will save and refresh the lake. Ben Abbott says a U.N. agency has recently declared a Global Water Bankruptcy, but that saving Great Salt Lake can serve as a template for a much wider set of water-use reforms in the United States and beyond. This episode was recorded on July 23, 2026.  

Host David Horton interviews Clay about Christopher Nolan's new blockbuster film on Homer's Odyssey. How closely does it follow the Homeric original? What changes in theme and character did Nolan make to turn the ancient poem into a film for our time? What should we make of the culture war dispute over the casting of a Black woman as Helen of Troy and a transgender actor as Sinon of the Wooden Horse episode? Since Homer makes the story a triumphant homecoming of the last of the heroes of Troy, why does Nolan make Odysseus a man of regret for the role he played in ending the heroic age and bringing on the long Greek Dark Ages? Is Matt Damon an adequate Odysseus? How about Charlize Theron as the goddess Calypso? What themes was Nolan attempting to wrestle with, and how successful was he? Does it help to have a deep background in the Homeric epics, or is it best to see the film with little or no familiarity with the epic tradition? This episode was recorded on July 23, 2026.  

Clay and his travel partner, Russ Eagle, interview the world-renowned sleight of hand magician Joshua Jay in Las Vegas. In addition to wowing audiences across the United States, Joshua Jay performs in America's prisons and encourages criminals, including hardened ones, to take up magic. He has just returned from a tour of war-torn Ukraine, where he lightened the burden of the Ukrainian people, fighting for their national survival against Russian aggression. Clay gave Joshua Jay the tuxedo of one of the 20th century's greatest sleight of hand magicians, Channing Pollock, for Jay's museum of magic in northwest Las Vegas, which also includes Houdini's straitjacket and his famous needle swallowing apparatus. This episode was recorded on July 14, 2026.

Clay welcomes Sandra Murray to talk about her 40-year career behind the scenes of major Hollywood film productions. Sandra has worked on over 250 films, including Titanic, King Kong, Les Misérables, and The Lord of the Rings trilogy, most often creating the "Making of the Movie" features that accompany distribution. She has worked with some of the major filmmakers of the last half-century, including her friend Clint Eastwood. The American film industry is undergoing a revolutionary set of changes, not all of them, in her opinion, good. Movie theaters are increasingly empty. Streaming is king. Artificial Intelligence and CGI (Computer-Generated Imagery) are transforming special effects. Independent films are easier and less expensive to make, but much harder to distribute. So many films are produced across so many platforms that there is no longer a common body of movies most Americans have seen. Nobody is quite sure where the film industry is headed, but Sandra Murray shares her insights. This episode was recorded on April 10, 2026.