Eat Your Customer's Pain

This week we start with Justin’s return to Twitter (November 28, so mark your calendars) and then dig into Brian Halligan coming back as HubSpot CEO to “refound” the company. Jordan walks us through why the move worries him, and we end up debating what it says about SaaS in a world where anyone can vibe-code their own CRM. Brian shares what he’s seeing from non-technical Builder Methods members building custom case management systems, and Jordan explains how we’re thinking about MCP at Rosie, including whether to build a chat box inside the app or let customers control it from Claude.Chapters:(00:18) - Welcome and Danny Postma Shoutout (02:00) - HubSpot Refounding and Wartime CEOs (05:31) - SaaS Trends and Vibe Coding (17:00) - Open Source and Custom Solutions (22:30) - MCPs and Anthropic's Trojan Horse (34:21) - AI Costs and NVIDIA Situation (37:15) - Political Backlash and Data Centers (48:20) - AMP Week and Team Culture (58:51) - Builder Methods Coaching Launch (01:06:05) - Agent Reporting and Infrastructure Links Mentioned in this episode:Ben Orenstein on X: "I'm back at @tuple as CEO! The Art of ProductLess Annoying CRM | Simple Contact Management for Small BusinessesStartup to LastGitHub - NYLLON-SOFTWARE/ember-cloudflare: Open Source Slack and Campfire inspired chat with one click deploy to CloudflareCarrd - Simple, free, fully responsive one-page sites for pretty much anythingA road trip through the data center debate — Search EngineRaising an Agent — a podcast by Quinn Slack and Thorsten Ball - AmpAgent Reports: Agents work everywhere. They report here

Amp Code's approach to running a company is potentially changing how software teams work, Justin and Jordan reflect on their own teams and how they compare to the bar Amp is setting for teams working with AI. Brian reveals a new project, Homegrown Systems, a productized service that installs a team of marketing agents inside your own company.Timestamps:(00:10) - Intros (03:20) - AMP as "the new 37signals" (13:20) - Why 37signals worked, and what AMP is questioning (17:36) - Is process just performance theater? (19:03) - How Jordan's and Justin's teams are adapting (24:53) - Junior developers, AI-native hires and token budgets (27:38) - Fiverr thought exercise (33:15) - Reveal: Homegrown Systems (41:29) - Where the demand comes from? (44:18) - How is this different from open-source skills? (47:38) - Who is the ideal customer? (58:21) - First steps for validating a new product (01:00:13) - Speed, decisions and the cost of hesitation (01:05:33) - Hiring versus experiments (01:18:32) - Wrap-up and community shout-outs YOU ARE THE PANEL – send us your thoughts 🗣️🎤 Send us an audio or video message📧 Email us: [email protected]📺 Leave a comment on YouTube 🦋 Reply on Bluesky Links mentioned in this episode:Amp: Coding agent and dev environment built for the frontierRaising an Agent — a podcast by Quinn Slack and Thorsten BallShortcutFiverrHomegrown Systemscoreyhaines31/marketingskillsAgentMailJosh Pigford

Jordan and Brian unpack two MicroConf talks from Rob and Einar that frame the new reality of SaaS: faster building, faster competition, and more ways for products to get displaced. They then get practical about what that means for product strategy, pricing, annual billing, and where AI can actually help a small business stay durable.Timestamps:00:00: Intro and Rob’s MicroConf talk03:30: Should founders be more paranoid?06:17: Einar’s moat talk and what makes software valuable10:13: Where services and productized services fit13:46: Josh Pigford’s AI service model17:26: Giving Grokbot recurring jobs20:21: Claude does the work, Grokbot runs the pipeline23:45: Getting bot output ready for quick approvals27:20: Keeping marketing going between launches33:10: Getting out of your head by building something36:22: Jared’s A Pointlet and Little Desk39:16: Fewer features and simpler annual pricing43:18: Quarterly payments and annual commitments46:14: Brian’s current favorite: Claude Opus 5.549:14: Elon, xAI, and the AI race52:14: Weekend plansYOU ARE THE PANEL – send us your thoughts 🗣️🎤 Send us an audio or video message📧 Email us: [email protected]📺 Leave a comment on YouTube 🦋 Reply on Bluesky Links mentioned in this episode:MicroConfDiscretion CapitalKnowatoaMuse: Meta's personal AI agentIntroducing dots | OpenAIInstinctGrok BotIntroducing Claude DuetAppointletLittle DeskLiveKitopus 5.5Claude FableElon Musk: Full Walter Isaacson Interview on AI, DOGE, the Debt & X | The BuildersBillionaires Palmer Luckey And Ben Lamm Spin Up Startup To Genetically Engineer Military Dogs

Corey shares how he moved from marketing into coding, why he still keeps technical co-founders on some products, and how he thinks about balancing services, software, and content. The group also digs into AEO, paid ads, churn in productized services, and why manual customer research still matters.Timestamps:00:00 - Intro02:20 - Corey Haines and Conversion Factory04:33 - Does everyone still need a technical co-founder?06:21 - How Corey went from marketing to coding10:08 - TrueList, Magister, and Corey’s other products13:01 - Running several products instead of betting on one15:26 - Building a business around a personal brand17:33 - How AI changes testing ideas and building products20:58 - Automated testing across 30 repos24:50 - Spreading the risk across multiple products27:24 - Josh Pigford and the debate over focus31:31 - Why some products grow and then fade34:33 - What to do when growth stalls36:48 - SendFox, focus, and what counts as winning38:52 - Churn and sales challenges in productized services41:40 - Selling AI implementation and SEO services46:14 - The value of talking to people48:29 - What parts of marketing can you productize?50:26 - SaaS marketing has changed—and Google feels it52:52 - Which marketing channels should you try first?56:24 - Finding the first customers for a niche product59:14 - Learning how customers talk and buy01:03:04 - AEO results: more visibility, traffic, and booked calls01:05:24 - AEO beyond your own website01:08:04 - The work AI still can’t skip01:11:50 - Brian’s mix of ads, cold email, and experiments01:16:03 - Growth curves and finding the next marketing channel01:20:32 - Faster MVPs and choosing what to build01:22:28 - Products Brian actually wants to work on01:24:54 - Finding customers and problems worth solvingYOU ARE THE PANEL – send us your thoughts 🗣️🎤 Send us an audio or video message📧 Email us: [email protected]📺 Leave a comment on YouTube 🦋 Reply on Bluesky Links mentioned in this episode:Ruben’s comment on AI and marketingJosh Pigford’s new startupCorey Haines on GitHubMagister Marketing — AI Marketing AgentJason Cohen’s “Elephant in the Room”Brian Casel on selling ProductizeTim Soulo: “The only competitive advantage left is effort.”Conversion Factory — On-Demand Marketing for Tech CompaniesCorey Haines — Marketer, Builder, WriterMarketing Skills for Claude Code and AI AgentsTruelist — Email Validation PlatformMarc Lou on XCharleston AI — AI Engineering, Classes & Repair

Is DHH right in his prediction that handcrafted coding is done, is trying to "be the best" the best strategy, and can you skip the hard work and just do the easy parts of product launching and still find success?Chapters:(00:11) - Welcome to the Panel Podcast (03:04) - DHH's Flamethrower Keynote (09:07) - The End of Handcrafting Code (12:35) - Who Wants It the Most (16:08) - Marketing with AI and Manual Grind (24:56) - Being the Best in Your Category (35:49) - Product Decision Making in 2026 (47:46) - Sam Altman's Advice on Focus (54:01) - Risk and Opportunity in AI (01:00:33) - Building vs Acquiring Businesses (01:19:30) - The Independent Sponsor Model (01:33:16) - Staying in Motion and Shipping Links:DHH keynote at Rails WorldDerrick Reimer on finding business ideasRuben Gamez tweetOlly tweetMicroConf EuropeAngelListTinySeedAmpGrokMuseInstinctGrok BotElevenLabsReception.aiDocuSignFlywriteMimeoMiroEvernoteBending Spoons

We’re joined by Aaron Francis who shares his experience after joining Laravel, Laravel's evolution, marketing strategies, and the future of cloud computing. How is Jev changing the cost and way we use LLMs. And what is the future of education and training on the web?Timestamps:00:00 - Intro03:03 - Aaron's Laracon reveal and why he took the job09:03 - Open source roots, cloud money, and VC-scale growth14:58 - Who Laravel Cloud is actually built for19:07 - Taylor's "best in category" tweet, unpacked22:52 - Ambition and care beat chasing every feature27:02 - Founders need a point of view, not just a new tool31:46 - PHP's culture keep Laravel grounded35:25 - Justin's Vegas Retreat45:10 - Introducing Jev, and how it's different from an LLM58:23 - Rosie, ChatGPT Live, and whether full-stack agents are any good62:16 - "Eat the pain" for your customers as a strategy77:41 - Aaron's Astra 3D office walkthrough demo81:11 - Are courses dead? Where dev education goes nextYOU ARE THE PANEL – send us your thoughts 🗣️🎤 Send us an audio or video message📧 Email us: [email protected]📺 Leave a comment on YouTube 🦋 Reply on Bluesky Links mentioned in this episode:Jev announcement postSyntax: WTF is Jev?Aaron's product - SoloAaron's 3D modeling with Astra90s PC game: Incredible MachineNew Builder Methods pageAaron FrancisIntroducing GPT-Live | OpenAITypeSafe AIFree AI Voice Generator & Voice Agents Platform | ElevenLabsCompare AI Models: Pricing, Context & Benchmarks | OpenRouter

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, and Jordan Gal to dissect Jason Cohen's latest skills, particularly the 'Find Your Carol' AI exercise that reveals how customers truly perceive a business. The trio debates aggressive growth experiments versus refining existing funnels, analyzing why street interviews might outperform traditional UGC ads for prospecting. They also tackle the strategic decision of whether to keep product features bundled or spin them off into separate brands, while reflecting on the changing landscape of SaaS valuations and the challenges of maintaining energy as a solo founder.Chapters:(00:10) - Welcome and Introduction (00:30) - Jason Cohen's Hidden Multipliers (06:46) - Growth Experiment Mode (11:06) - New Ad Formats and Street Interviews (20:05) - Unconventional Marketing Strategies (38:23) - Low Energy and Company of One (45:45) - Building Systems with AI Agents (59:45) - Twitter Story and Workshop Updates (01:10:13) - Spots.fm Marketplace Strategy (01:22:09) - Buying vs Selling a Business (01:31:33) - Separate Brands for Different Markets (01:38:01) - Diversification and Exit Multiples (01:41:11) - ARR vs EBITDA Valuation (01:44:30) - Closing and Feedback Mentioned in this episode:Hidden Multipliers: Jumpstart Growth With Your Existing Budget and Team by Jason CohenFind Your Carol | Skills from A Smart BearCome to Charleston AI for all of your AI needs (r/TrueAnon)OrbanAI — AI agents that run inside your systemsTim Aton (@Tim_Aton) on XCompany Of One: Why Staying Small Is the Next Big Thing for Business by Paul JarvisAndrew Warner (@AndrewWarner) on XWhat Are Orbs? - AmpSpots.fm — Sponsor independent creatorsKit: The Platform for Creators

Jordan says you need to have patience and urgency. Justin says, "focus on the little red box that creates results." Brian is thinking strategically about courses vs. downloadable products.Chapters:(00:10) - Welcome to The Panel (01:18) - Summer Ending and Fall Rush (04:28) - Motivation and Dissatisfaction (09:40) - Revenue Goal of One Million (12:54) - Patient Urgency Concept (21:11) - Focus on What Actually Matters (28:45) - Growing a Company of One (35:33) - Hiring for Customer Success (39:11) - Courses Versus Software Products (46:28) - Doing the Hardest Thing (57:57) - Personal Connections in Marketing (01:14:16) - Competitor Collapse and Lessons (01:19:32) - Brian's Product Strategy Mentioned in this episode:"I want $100 million""You can make it complicated, or you can hit the golf ball."Justin's episode: "Don't over-engineer it"Justin's drawing: "Focus on what matters (the little red box)"Ryan Carson: "How I manage 15 AI agents 24/7 as a solo founder"Brian's Mimeo product"When you bundle too much in your product, your positioning becomes vague"Freshbooks CEO started a secret company to compete with his existing product

What "new" value can we create with AI? Brian, Justin, and Jordan talk about how we can be more creative and ambitious and build things we wouldn't have built before. We also chatted about Grok Bot and xAI's land grab (Cursor acquisition and the SuperGrok Heavy plan). Also... Brian broke up with Claude?!Timestamps:00:00 - Intro03:34 - The sudden rise and appeal of Grokbot11:49 - Claude fatigue and the shift toward chief-of-staff AI agents14:55 - How product experience is replacing model quality in the AI race18:09 - Cursor's speed advantage, pricing pain, and team switching costs26:08 - Enterprise loyalty and why model quality will commoditize43:44 - AI for autonomous entities, trust, and community integration49:11 - Building AI-native vs. consumer vs. professional use cases57:10 - Trust as the bottleneck in sensitive fields like personal finance60:22 - Transistor's video launch, pricing model, and MCP integration66:14 - Jordan's new capital deal and leveraging extra runway72:12 - Customer success hiring and Builder Methods' non-developer expansion90:15 - Wrap upYOU ARE THE PANEL – send us your thoughts 🗣️🎤 Send us an audio or video message📧 Email us: [email protected]📺 Leave a comment on YouTube 🦋 Reply on Bluesky Links mentioned in this episode:Jesse Hanley – Marketer, developer, and creator.Introducing Grok Bot – SpaceXAI's latest release.Shaan Puri on AI Loyalty – A candid take on switching tools.Cursor – The top AI coding agent.Caleb Porzio's Work Notes – Why Cursor outpaces Codex.Amazon’s Anthropic Stake – IPO valuation insights.Polsia – AI that manages operations autonomously.Mostly Technical #145 – Exploring marketing as engineering.

Is there a potential SaaS pocalypse? How can we adapt to changes and leverage new models for growth? Jordan, Justin, and Brian explore the current state of the software market, private equity dynamics, and the impact of AI on valuations.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction02:01 Finding distribution is difficult on FB Marketplace and online12:05 The future of building software with AI and agent-first design16:07 Market entry strategies for new products19:57 Unbundling SaaS and the new software delivery models23:46 The role of internal tools and side projects28:03 The SaaS pocalypse32:00 SaaS valuations and market dynamics36:01 Designing simple interfaces with powerful backend features39:59 The evolving landscape of SaaS and market opportunities51:25 Opportunities in the current market1:03:00 Life updatesYOU ARE THE PANEL – send us your thoughts 🗣️🎤 Send us an audio or video message📧 Email us: [email protected]📺 Leave a comment on YouTube 🦋 Reply on Bluesky Links mentioned in this episode:Mimeo: Own your email marketing stackFlywrite | The writing app with a terminal built inLiveKit PlatformResendButtondown tiiny.host Make IPOs Great AgainTiny Anne Frank The Exhibition Visit the Chicago Museum of Ice CreamMxPxGoldfinger