The Ezra Klein Show: Jensen Huang Thinks A.I. Alarmism Has Gone Too Far

This week, after months in which rogue agents have caused havoc across the internet, tech’s most powerful leaders joined President Trump at the White House to rebrand A.I. At the same time, two of the biggest companies in the field — OpenAI and Meta — released what they say are their most useful (and cutest) A.I. tools to date: personal assistants. To discuss it all, we’re joined by the Times tech reporters Mike Isaac, Erin Griffith and Eli Tan. We’ll discuss how things can be more dangerous and potentially more transformative than ever, and what it’s like to hand your life over to Meta’s Muse.Panelists:Erin Griffith, a reporter for The New York Times who covers start-ups and venture capital.Mike Isaac, a reporter for The New York Times who covers Silicon Valley and artificial intelligence companies.Eli Tan, a reporter for The New York Times who covers Meta and the tech industry.Additional Reading:​​OpenAI Ignored Employees’ Warnings About Safely Testing A.I. ModelsWho Attended Trump’s A.I. Luncheon, and Who Sat WhereF.T.C. Investigates OpenAI and Anthropic Over Potential Consumer HarmsI Gave My Life Over to Meta’s A.I. Agent and Was Blown AwayOpenAI Unveils Dots, New A.I. Agents to Rival Meta’s MuseAnthropic's IPO prospectus shows sweeping AI vision, surging costsHow Meta Uses A.I. Data Centers to Avoid Billions in Federal Taxes We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.  Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

For the next few months on “Hard Fork,” join the guest host Max Read and an array of Times reporters and experts as we zoom out, catch up and try to understand both what’s happening inside the tech industry and what tech is doing to all of us.Meet the HostMax Read has been writing about technology and the internet for more than a decade, most recently in his weekly newsletter, Read Max. His writing has appeared over the years in various publications with the words “New York” in the title, including New York magazine, The New York Times and The New York Times Magazine. He has also recently been dispensing workplace advice as everyone’s “Work Friend.”We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.  Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode, Ezra travels to Nvidia’s headquarters in Santa Clara, Calif., for a wide-ranging conversation with the chief executive Jensen Huang about the future of A.I. and why he thinks predictions of imminent doom are overblown. Guests:Jensen Huang, chief executive of Nvidia Additional Reading:A transcript and video of this episode can be found here.America’s A.I. Leaders Warn U.N. of Possible Peril Absent a Global ResponseAnthropic Releases a New A.I. Model, Opus 5.5, Amid Safety DebateWhat to Know About Recent A.I. Hacks at Google, Anthropic, OpenAI and MetaThe A.I. Party House Where Networking Has a Dark Side We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.  Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we break down why everyone is suddenly talking about A.I. safety, why frontier A.I. companies are asking for regulation and why the Trump administration is rejecting them. And then, to close out this chapter of “Hard Fork,” we answer all your questions about the show, tech and what’s happening next. Additional Reading:The A.I. Researcher Whose Rebellion Is Changing EverythingTop A.I. Leaders Call for Slowing Down A.I. DevelopmentPresident Trump Is on the Line About an A.I. SlowdownMark Zuckerberg Takes Aim at Anthropic in Debate Over A.I. SlowdownThe ‘But China!’ Dilemma Driving the A.I. Race We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.  Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The “Hard Fork” team is away this week. But while we’re away, we’re bringing you a recent episode of “The Ezra Klein Show.”In this episode, Ezra talks with the journalist Jasmine Sun about her recent reporting trip through the Midwest, where she explored how the data center backlash is playing out on the ground.Ezra and Jasmine discuss the strange political coalitions that are coming together to oppose the A.I. infrastructure build out, and why people don’t believe what they’re being told about it. Guests:Jasmine Sun, journalist and writer at jasmi.news Additional Reading:No Data Centers In My BackyardA transcript and video of this episode can be found here. We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.  Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we’re diving into two new reports about the OpenAI-Hugging Face hack. We discuss what’s new and how they fundamentally change our understanding of what happened. Then we’re joined by Ajeya Cotra, one of the investigators at METR, to discuss the rogue agents’ message board and chain-of-thought transcripts and how the world should respond.Guests:Ajeya Cotra, co-author of the METR and Redwood Research report on the OpenAI-Hugging Face hack. Additional Reading:Brief Independent Investigation of Agents’ Behavior, Reasoning and Collaboration in the OpenAI / Hugging Face Hacking IncidentThe Hugging Face Attack Surprised MeThe Hugging Face Incident and the Road AheadNvidia Buys Hugging Face in $12.9 Billion Deal We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, Meta agreed to pay up to $17.1 billion and make major changes to Facebook and Instagram over claims it endangered children with addictive social media platforms. We discuss why it capitulated and what it means for the entire social media industry. Then, Princeton computer science professor Arvind Narayanan returns to offer his thoughts on why banning data centers won’t slow down A.I. progress. And finally, it’s all hats on deck for the final HatGPT. Guests: Arvind Narayanan, professor of computer science at Princeton, and co-author of the “A.I. as Normal Technology” newsletter. Additional Reading: Meta to Pay Up to $17.1 Billion in Landmark Settlement Over Social Media Addiction Claims Mark Zuckerberg Wants to Make Sure His Competitors Share His Pain Arvind Narayanan’s Post About A.I. Data Centers Apple Vision Pro in Surgery: A New Paper Rockstar Finally Breaks Its Silence Over The GTA 6 Leaks, Calls Them ‘Heartbreaking’ Amazon Delivery Drone Dumps Texas Woman’s Parcel Straight Into Her Swimming Pool What if Your Texts Traveled as Slowly as a Carrier Pigeon? A.I. Agents Are Turning Founders Into Insomniacs What is a ‘Meat Proxy’? The New Term For Coworkers Who Blindly Share A.I. Output Chinese Robot Tiangong Clocks Sub-9 second 100 Metres in Beijing Inside OpenAI’s Reboot Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we learned that OpenAI had stopped training new artificial intelligence models while the company reviewed its security measures. Will this encourage other labs to hit the brakes too? Then, the historian Jill Lepore joins to discuss her new book about the artificial state — or, as she describes it, “the rule of humans by machines manufactured by corporations.” And finally, why is Google buying up the data of the defunct Spirit Airlines? It’s time for our new segment “Train of Thought.” Guests: Jill Lepore, professor of history and law at Harvard University, staff writer at The New Yorker and author of the new book “The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State.” Additional Reading: OpenAI Slows Model Training to Bolster Security After Hugging Face Hack A Government for the People, but Not by People Google to Buy Spirit Airlines Business Data for $10 Million A.I.’s New Training Data: Your Old Work Slacks and Emails We Tracked a Shipment of Rare Books. It Ended at an Amazon A.I. Training Facility. We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week we’re talking about Mark Zuckerberg’s latest essay, “The Future Is for Everyone,” which outlines his positive new vision about the potential of A.I. But do we think it’s credible? Then, Pangram’s chief executive, Max Spero, joins us to talk about the breakout success of his A.I. slop detector. And finally, it’s time for our new segment all about math — we’re Running the Numbers. Guests: Max Spero, chief executive of Pangram Additional Reading: The Future Is for Everyone Meta Unveils an Open Version of Its Most Powerful A.I. Model  Meta Ordered to Pay $567 Million in New Mexico Child Safety Case Sick of A.I.-Generated Content? The ‘Slop Janitor’ Is Here to Help. Learning more about Claude's mathematical capabilities Airtable Acquisition Is ‘Kick in the Gut’ for Software Unicorns and Their Backers The Dating Scene That’s Suddenly Dominated by Chip Nerds We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, the White House announced a new framework for regulating A.I. models, but it isn’t letting the public read it. We break down what we know about the rules and what the implications are for the industry and A.I. safety as a whole.  Then, yet another report details new incidents in which A.I. agents have gone rogue. Chris Painter, the president of METR, an independent A.I. evaluation organization, joins to discuss how we get these models under control.  And finally, we're hopping on the Hot Mess Express for the very last time. We’ll rate the craziest tech headlines from the week, including Google’s announcement that Demis Hassabis is stepping into a new role.    Guests: Chris Painter, president of METR.    Additional Reading: White House Readies A.I. Framework to Review Security Risks Inside Trump's AI framework How Do You Measure an A.I. Boom? METR’s Frontier Risk Report Google Shakes Up A.I. Leadership Did an A.I. Music App Just Snitch on the Song of the Summer? This AI Assistant Wants to Make Up for Your Boyfriend’s Incompetence Google Earth’s AI deepfake tool only lasted one day US government map of Africa mislabels every country at global conference Contractor who built Colossus and Colossus II says Elon Musk owes him colossal amount of money   We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.   Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.