295: Wilderness Isn't the Problem

What do decades of practice in wilderness therapy reveal about ethics, transport, and change? In this episode, Will talks with Paula Leslie—former Aspen Achievement Academy field guide, therapist, accreditation reviewer, and longtime educational consultant—for a rare and reflective conversation about the evolution of the field. First introduced to many readers through Gary Ferguson's book Shouting at the Sky, Paula looks back on her formative years, the core lessons that still endure, and the ethical blind spots that only became clear with time. From learning to "do hard things" to understanding autonomy, nervous systems, and family dynamics, she offers an insider's perspective on what wilderness therapy was—and what it has become. The conversation goes deep into the most complex and controversial issues facing wilderness therapy today, including transporting young people to treatment, trauma-informed decision-making, accreditation and safety standards, and the growing recognition of neurodiversity and family systems work. Paula speaks candidly about when wilderness therapy can be transformative—and when it can cause harm if misused. For parents, professionals, and former students alike, this episode doesn't offer easy answers—but it does offer hard-earned wisdom, grounded in decades of lived experience and a commitment to doing better. To connect with Paula Leslie please email her at [email protected] This podcast is supported by White Mountain Adventure Institute (wmai.org), offering adventure inspired retreats for men and facilitated by Will White.  

What is the most controversial program in the history of wilderness therapy? Some might say it's the very program podcast host Will White was compelled to attend as a teenager. In this deeply personal and historical episode, Will shares—for the first time in full—the origin story that shaped his life and ultimately his 35-year career in mental health treatment in outdoor settings. Sent by his parents at fourteen to a "wilderness therapy program" long before the field formally existed, Will describes how the experience built him, challenged him, and exposed him to both mentorship and harm. He also reveals how this same organization later became the center of national protest, legal battles, and cultural upheaval—rhyming in striking ways with the controversies surrounding modern wilderness therapy. This special episode serves as a teaser for Season 26, where Will explores the tangled and surprising origins of wilderness therapy, drawing from his doctoral dissertation Stories from the Elders: Chronicles and Narratives from the Early Years of Wilderness Therapy, his book Stories from the Field: A History of Wilderness Therapy, and conversations from this podcast. If you're curious about the real roots of wilderness therapy—its innovations, its failures, its controversies, and its lasting impact—this episode sets the stage for the most comprehensive historical exploration ever undertaken in the outdoor behavioral health space. This podcast is supported by White Mountain Adventure Institute (wmai.org), offering adventure inspired retreats for men and facilitated by Will White.

How can parents grow alongside a struggling teen or young adult without getting pulled into their anxiety, shutdown, or refusal? In this episode, Will welcomes back Krissy Pozatek to discuss the updated edition of her influential book, The Parallel Process: Growing Alongside Your Adolescent or Young Adult in Treatment. Krissy explains how the mental health landscape has shifted—more anxiety, school refusal, neurodivergence—and why parents can no longer rely on old models of detachment or over-involvement. She outlines her expanded five principles, including her new emphasis on reframing problems so parents stop trying to fix emotions and instead support teens in taking responsibility. Will and Krissy explore what it truly means to "grow in parallel" with a child in crisis, whether at home, in outpatient care, or after wilderness and residential treatment. They discuss how enmeshment and accommodation show up in everyday family life—tech battles, social media, avoidance—and how "choice-based boundaries" can create structure without power struggles. Krissy also reflects on the evolving world of wilderness and nature-based therapy, and why allowing safe struggle is key to resilience. The updated Parallel Process gives parents a roadmap to stay steadier and more grounded so their teens can use the skills they're learning in treatment. To buy Krissy's book or learn about her coaching practice- https://www.parallel-process.com/ This podcast is supported by White Mountain Adventure Institute (wmai.org), offering adventure inspired retreats for men.

What happens when a wilderness guide, therapist, and seasoned mentor decides that traditional treatment programs no longer fit the needs of young adults? In this episode, Will speaks with Andrew "Chappy" Chapman, an innovator who has blended decades of guiding, wilderness therapy work, and young adult mentoring into something entirely new: Belay Life's one-to-one immersive adventure model. Chappy traces his path from SUWS of Idaho to the early days of True North Wilderness Program and later to New Summit Academy in Costa Rica, each step shaping his understanding of how young adults learn, struggle, and change. When the pandemic disrupted his college mentoring work, a single student invitation to Hawai'i became the catalyst for creating a more individualized, adventure-based alternative. Chappy explains how one of his earliest clients described Belay Life as "the anti-program program," capturing its fully customized structure, privilege-from-day-one design, and emphasis on intentional daily living. Will and Chappy explore who this immersive model is best suited for, how it overlaps with but stands apart from wilderness therapy, and why families and young adults are increasingly seeking personalized, experiential approaches to growth. Belay Life website is https://belaylife.com/ This podcast is supported by White Mountain Adventure Institute (wmai.org), offering adventure inspired retreats for men.  

What if "consulting" in mental health meant more than just placement? In this episode Will speaks with Amanda Thomas, founder of Cobalt Family Consulting, about how she and her team are reimagining therapeutic consulting for families navigating complex emotional and behavioral challenges. Their clinically informed, team-based approach blends therapy, coaching, and systems navigation to meet families where they are—often before residential or wilderness treatment becomes necessary. Drawing on her deep background in wilderness therapy and outdoor leadership, Amanda shares how Cobalt bridges the gap between traditional mental health care and the evolving needs of families today. Together, she and Will explore the growing demand for concierge-style support, the lessons outdoor work brings to modern practice, and how this next-generation model is changing the way families find help and hope. To check out Cobalt Family Consulting- try their website- https://www.cobaltfamilyconsulting.com/ This podcast is supported by White Mountain Adventure Institute (wmai.org), offering adventure inspired retreats for men.    

What do wilderness therapy outcomes really tell us? In this episode, Will talks with researchers Dr. Joanna Bettmann Schaefer and Dr. Laura Mills, two leading researchers studying outcomes in wilderness therapy and residential outdoor treatment. Drawing on data from thousands of adolescents across multiple programs, they reveal what the evidence shows about who benefits most—and who may not—from outdoor behavioral healthcare. Their conversation explores why family engagement is such a powerful predictor of success, how adopted and neurodiverse adolescents often experience different outcomes, and why a teen's sense of belonging in treatment matters. Joanna and Laura also discuss the importance of transparency, ongoing outcome measurement, and listening to those who felt harmed by treatment. For parents, professionals, and anyone seeking facts over assumptions, this episode brings clarity to what outcome research really shows about wilderness therapy today. To find the research discussed in this episode: Dr. Bettman-Schaefer research page- https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joanna-Bettmann-Schaefer To contact Dr. Bettman-Shaefer- [email protected] Dr. Laura Mills research page- https://www.bestnotes.com/our-advisors/laura-mills-ph-d-qm-psych/ To contact Dr. Mills- [email protected]   This podcast is supported by White Mountain Adventure Institute (wmai.org), offering adventure inspired retreats for men.  

Dr. Patricia Hasbach of Northwest Ecotherapy joins Will to explore how clinicians can bring the healing power of nature into their therapeutic work. Drawing from her new book, Prescribing Nature: A Clinician's Guide to Ecotherapy, Patricia shares her journey from traditional therapy settings to incorporating the natural world as an active partner in treatment. She explains the concept of the "ecological self" and how reconnecting clients with nature can reduce anxiety, depression, and stress while deepening connection and meaning. Patricia also offers practical guidance on writing "nature prescriptions," navigating ethical considerations, and developing competence for working outdoors. Through personal stories and research insights, she shows how ecotherapy can transform both therapy and the therapist—helping practitioners step beyond the office and into the living world as part of the healing process. U.S.-based customers can get 20% off and free shipping on Patricia Hasbach's new book when ordering through Norton using this link:  https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324053668?promo=WWHITE20 Dr. Hasbach's website is- https://www.northwestecotherapy.com/ This podcast is supported by White Mountain Adventure Institute (wmai.org), offering adventure inspired retreats for men.  

Why are so many young people struggling—and are adults partly to blame? Dr. Will Dobud and Dr. Nevin Harper return to Stories from the Field to talk with Will about their bold new book, Kids These Days: Understanding and Supporting Youth Mental Health. Building on their past appearances, they explore why youth mental health keeps declining despite unprecedented access to therapy, medication, and awareness—and what adults can do to change the story. Drawing on decades of research and global experience, they challenge the assumption that kids are the problem, pointing instead to the adult-driven systems shaping their world: safety culture, over-intervention, digital overload, and the pathologizing of normal struggle. This episode invites parents, educators, and clinicians to step back, rethink their roles, and consider how adults can foster real belonging, autonomy, and resilience for the next generation. To buy Kids These Days: Understanding and Supporting Youth Mental Health, visit: https://newsociety.com/book/kids-these-days Previous appearances: Dr. Will Dobud - Episodes 109 and 132 Dr. Nevin Harper - Episode 106 This podcast is supported by White Mountain Adventure Institute (wmai.org), offering adventure-inspired retreats for men.

Journalist and bestselling author Florence Williams joins Will to explore how time outdoors can transform our minds and bodies. Drawing from her acclaimed book The Nature Fix and her retreats around the world, Florence shares what first inspired her to study the science of nature's impact on mental health — and how awe, quiet, and sunlight can rewire our brains for calm and connection. They discuss the "three-day effect," the power of forest bathing, and simple daily practices anyone can use to bring more nature into life — even in cities. Whether you're a reader of The Nature Fix or simply someone who feels better outside, this conversation will leave you inspired to step outdoors and notice how nature heals. To learn more about Florence Williams, her books, and retreats check out: https://florencewilliams.com/ This podcast is supported by White Mountain Adventure Institute (wmai.org), offering adventure inspired retreats for men.  

In this week's episode, Will welcomes experiential educator Greg Hitchcock, who shares the story of The Trade—a paid apprenticeship and next-step program for young adults who feel stuck or unsure of their direction. Based on 2,000 acres in New Hampshire, The Trade helps participants learn by doing and earn while growing through hands-on training in the trades, including forestry, woodworking, construction, automotive, hospitality, and more. Apprentices live together in a supportive, therapeutic-style community, earning wages from day one while building life skills, confidence, and independence through real work in the outdoors.  Learn more about The Trade at TradeForLife.org. This podcast is supported by White Mountain Adventure Institute (wmai.org), offering adventure inspired retreats for men.