S7 Ep 4: Coming Out as a Late Life Lesbian with Anne-Marie Zanzal

Irina’s discovery of her husband’s sexuality started from accidentally finding a social media account in a locked folder on his phone. Not thinking much of it at first, she enquired him about it, and he burst into tears and said, “I think I am bisexual”. He then shared the account and the rest of his private folder – the contents of which clearly indicated he was attracted to men, as well as women. While feeling betrayed by his withholding such an important piece of information throughout their marriage, she was also impressed by his honesty in sharing his thoughts and emotions during the early weeks and months following the disclosure. She approaches her post-disclosure marriage as a new relationship—one with someone she knows has many good qualities, but whom she is still getting to know.

Today's episode features a presentation of the Minwalla Model of Deceptive Sexuality and Complex Trauma Treatment. In 2006, Dr. Omar Minwalla began to study the signs of Complex Trauma related stress in people whose spouses had committed infidelity. Minwalla’s powerful educational metaphor, the “Secret Sexual Basement”, has made the personal, relational, and sociological abuses that comprise deceptive sexuality accessible to everyone.  By putting the spotlight on the harms of “deceptive sexuality,” Minwalla shows how clinically significant deficits in integrity enable infidelity and can rise to the level of an Integrity Abuse Disorder, which he categorizes as a form of intimate partner abuse.  From here we take Minwalla's model a step further and posit that closeted LGBT+ spouses in mixed orientation marriages have a Secret Sexual Basement of their own. This compartmentalized secret sexual reality not only contains secret sexual behaviors that may or may not be going on, but also contains their hidden or obscured sexual orientation or gender identity. It’s not just that deception is employed to cover infidelity, it’s that, intentional or not, deception may be deployed to cover sexuality itself. In the case of marriage closets, as with infidelity, concealment behaviors, manipulation and deceptive management of straight spouses constitutes patterns of emotional, psychological and relational harm that may give rise to symptoms of complex trauma in straight spouses.  DR. OMAR MINWALLA WEBSITE: https://minwallamodel.com DR. OMAR MINWALLA PODCAST INTERVIEWS Understanding Betrayal with Dr. Omar Minwalla. Part 1 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/helping-couples-heal-podcast/id1462962051?i=1000465644823   Understanding Betrayal with Dr. Omar Minwalla. Part 2 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/helping-couples-heal-podcast/id1462962051?i=1000469245574   Understanding Betrayal with Dr. Omar Minwalla. Part 3 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/helping-couples-heal-podcast/id1462962051?i=1000472914618   Real Talk About Cheating (Tell Me How You’re Mighty with Chump Lady Tracy Shorn)  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tell-me-how-youre-mighty-real-talk-about-cheating/id1703987977   OURVOICES PODCAST EPISODES: Michelle Mays  https://bit.ly/S6Ep13OPOV_YT   Debi Silber https://bit.ly/S4Ep2OPOV_YT   Tracy Shorn https://bit.ly/S6Ep1OPOV_YT   Ryan King https://bit.ly/S4Ep3OPOV_YT   William Dameron https://bit.ly/S2Ep15OPOV_YT   Helen Fitzgibbons https://bit.ly/S2Ep11OPOV_YT

Not only was OurPath Volunteer David Harte surprised to learn his wife was a lesbian, he was surprised that her family already knew she was. “One of her friends told me [my wife] had come out in her early 20’s. That wasn’t accepted by her family at all, hence, when I met her, her family were very encouraging of us getting married and having a child. I didn’t realize they were trying to marry her off.” Ten years later, David has found purpose and healing in paying forward the invaluable support he received from OurPath while in the early days after disclosure.

Tom Jones was married to a woman for 22 years and hid in a deep closet in denial. His wife was aware of his same sex attraction early on, but not the depth of it. A positive HIV status and an acute addition to crystal meth deeply impacted their marriage and lives, resulting in divorce. His wife was diagnosed with cancer and passed away just two years following their divorce, requiring Tom to raise their two daughters. Although close at the end of his wife’s life, Tom, now 68, feels they never had to opportunity to truly mend.  In this episode, he shares how he believes his cowardice and inability to accept himself for who he was impacted the lives of his wife, his family, and those around him. He has carried deep remorse for his choices, and wants straight spouses to know they are deserving of accountability and amends.  Like this content? Show your appreciation with a donation directory to the podcast to keep the content coming! bit.ly/OPpodcastDONATE

Filmmaker Vaishnavi Sundar discusses her recently released documentary: Behind the Looking Glass, which delves into the lives and experiences of women whose partners have, or want to, transition. With voices from women worldwide, this film is the first of its kind. Today’s conversation touches on pornography, coercive control, emotional, financial and sexual abuse that for some women, coincide with their husbands identifying as trans.  Vaishnavi is a writer and a self-taught filmmaker from Chennai, India. Through her films, she advocates for the rights of women and girls worldwide. A decade ago she founded Lime Soda Films with the aim of highlighting themes of social justice, women’s empowerment and education. She is the Founder of Women Making Films (WMF) – a platform for female filmmakers to collaborate and create works of art, and has had the privilege of hosting the work of members from more than 20 countries. Behind the Looking Glass film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frffv2sB8zE Website: https://limesodafilms.com Twitter/X: @LimeSodaFilms  

Dr. Ben Schilaty, a social work professor and therapist, explains the Six Stages of Coming Out (first observed by Dr. Vivienne Cass in the 1970's). We explore both the experiences of LGBT+ spouses progressing through these stages, along with the corresponding experiences of straight spouses at each stage. This conversation aims to shed light on the various behaviors straight spouses may observe from their LGBT+ partners, as well as give context to straight spouses' feelings and experiences as their partners work through the coming out process.  Ben is the author of A Walk In My Shoes: Questions I am Often Asked as a Gay Latter Day Saint and cohosts the podcast "All Out in the Open" with his friend Charlie Bird. He is a cofounder of the Gather Conference which offers Christ-centered support to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and those who love them. Website: https://www.benschilaty.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/benschilaty/ Podcast: https://questionsfromthecloset.com

Ray Alex Williams used to go by the name Rachel. A former trans woman, today he refers to himself as a detransitioner. In this episode, he shares his perspective on his own transition process, including his true motivations for transitioning.  Exploring a diversity of essential perspectives like Ray’s can provide wives whose husbands have come out as trans with honest and vital information about gender transition in their own marriages, so they are better able to make fully informed decisions for their own lives.  X: @RayAlexWilliams YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@RayAlexWilliams

When Christine discovered her husband was gay after thirteen years of marriage, at first she felt relief that the disconnect between them had been explained. Anger and grief came much later. But when her oldest child came out as trans a few years later, she felt her grief first. Many straight spouses in mixed orientations marriages have LGBT+ children and face the challenge of reconciling conflicting feelings around those respective comings out. On today's show, our guest talks about the dissonance between her feelings when her spouse came out and when her child came out, and how she worked through the feelings to find acceptance.

When another husband called Wade out of the blue to tell him both their wives were spending time together on a vacation that very moment, Wade Ferris knew the writing was on the wall. With candor and vulnerability, Wade shares his story of learning that his wife of 23 years is a lesbian during the pandemic. A dedicated father and husband, Wade tried for decades to unlock the stalemate and repair the lack of intimacy in his marriage. By his own admission, the disconnect from his wife made him resentful and "not much fun to be around." He went on a mission to correct everything his wife complained was wrong with him, at last becoming what she called, "the perfect husband." But, as he soon found out, this was not enough to save their mixed orientation marriage.  Wade is currently writing a book about the straight spouse experience.   

Podcaster, Writer and coming out Coach Anne-Marie Zanzal shares her journey to coming out as a late-life lesbian after decades in a straight marriage. With the hope of building understanding and healing for straight husbands, she sheds light on the experiences of women coming out later in life and answers their questions.    About Anne-Marie: https://annemariezanzal.com Coming Out and Beyond Podcast: https://annemariezanzal.com/coming-out-stories-beyond-podcast/