Episode 85. SWOPSI: Joel Primack & Robert Jaffe

Societal problems big and small typically have a scientific element, often in a central way, yet most scientists are not directly involved in policy. My guests sought to change that in 1969 when they created the Stanford Workshops on Social and Political Issues, or SWOPSI. SWOPSI was founded by three students, two of whom are with us today: Joel Primack and Robert Jaffe. The third student was Joyce Kobayashi. Also with us today is my uncle Frank, who worked on some of the early SWOPSI initiatives. In this episode, I ask Joel, Bob and Frank: How did they hack Stanford's rules for course credit to create workshops run by graduate students? What were the goals of SWOPSI? How effective were the workshops in tackling local vs. national or international problems? How did SWOPSI help to create programs for scientists to advise Congress on technical issues? Why did SWOPSI perish as an institution at Stanford? How has US military-sponsored research evolved since the Second World War? And is SWOPSI a good model for young scientists today who want to solve societal problems?

Institutions of higher education, especially in the United States, have received a great deal of attention over the past two generations regarding their ideological march to the left, and the impacts, real or imagined, on society at large. Criticism of American universities has sharpened since Oct. 7, 2023, as the Hamas attack on Israel was closely followed by campus protests against Israel. The ensuing turmoil resulted in the temporary closure of campuses, the resignations of college presidents, the cancellations of speakers and commencement ceremonies, and congressional investigations. How did American universities get to this moment? What are the implications for free speech, social cohesion, and democracy? And what are the repercussions for scholarship and science? My guest, Bret Stephens, has written extensively on the state of American universities, illiberalism, and antisemitism. Bret worked as an assistant editor at Commentary magazine from 1995-1996, after which he moved to the Wall Street Journal. From 2002-2004, Bret served as the editor-in-chief of The Jerusalem Post, where he oversaw the most comprehensive overhaul of the paper's content in its 70-year history. He then returned to the Wall Street Journal, where he won the 2013 Pulitzer Prize for Commentary. Bret moved to The New York Times in 2017, where he writes as an opinion columnist. He is also a contributor to NBC News and MSNBC, a contributing editor for Commentary magazine, and the editor-in-chief of SAPIR: A Journal of Jewish Conversations.

What was the Western World's understanding of the origins of humanity prior to the Enlightenment? Why did Christopher Columbus have a Hebrew speaker on his voyages of exploration? Why did the American universities founded before the Revolution have Hebrew in their curriculum? What role did linguistics play in the late 19th century modernization of the Hebrew language? What does the literary critic Edmund Wilson have to do with the science of archeology? Finally, and unrelated to science, how did the soft power of the arts - including music, theater, dance, film, literature, and television - help to shape the relationship between the United States and Israel? With us to answer this eclectic set of questions is Shalom Goldman. Shalom is the Pardon Tillinghast Professor of Religion at Middlebury College.

Archeology is the science that most directly connects us with our past, and no city in the world has been subject to more archeological interest than Jerusalem. With us to explore the archeology of Jerusalem is Jodi Magness. Jodi is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Since 2002, she has been the Kenan Distinguished Professor for Teaching Excellence in Early Judaism in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Jodi's research interests focus on Palestine in the Roman, Byzantine, and early Islamic periods, and Diaspora Judaism in the Roman world. She has studied ancient pottery, ancient synagogues, Jerusalem, Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Roman army in the East. Today we discuss her most recent book, Jerusalem Through the Ages: From Its Beginnings to the Crusades, published in 2024 by Oxford University Press.

Today I speak with Steve Fetter about his work on a variety of nuclear disarmament efforts, including the Black Sea Experiment, nuclear archeology, the risks associated with a single person having the ability to start a nuclear war, ballistic missile defense, the weaponization of space, nuclear energy, and climate change. Steve received an SB in physics from MIT in 1981 and a PhD in energy and resources from the University of California, Berkeley in 1985. Steve has been a professor in the School of Public Policy at the University of Maryland since 1988. Steve also served in government, including five years in the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy during the Obama administration, where he led the national security and international affairs division and the environment and energy division. Steve is a fellow of the American Physical Society and a recipient of their Leo Szilard Lectureship Award, as well as the Joseph A. Burton Forum Award, the Federation of American Scientists' Hans Bethe Science in the Public Service award, and the Secretary of Defense Medal for Outstanding Public Service.

Today we focus on the Soviet nuclear program with Thomas Cochran. Tom directed nuclear disarmament projects at the Natural Resources Defense Council from 1973 until his retirement in 2016. He has received numerous awards for his work on nuclear disarmament, including the public service award from the Federation of American Scientists and the Szilard Award from the American Physical Society, both in 1987. Tom was elected Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in 1989, and, due to his work, the Natural Resources Defense Council received the AAAS Scientific Freedom and Responsibility Award that same year. Today we discuss the Soviet nuclear weapons program, from Stalin finding out about the bomb to Gorbachev’s unilateral test moratorium. Tom played key roles in the seismic monitoring experiment, visits by US Congressional delegations to sensitive Soviet military installations, the Black Sea experiment, and other adventures in nuclear de-escalation.

Today we explore the history of the field of endocrine disruption with Patricia Hunt. Pat is a Regents Professor in the School of Molecular Biosciences at Washington State University. She is a distinguished researcher and the recipient of many awards; additionally, she works at the forefront of initiatives to communicate complex scientific findings to the public. 

In episode 77, I interviewed William Lanouette about Leo Szilard's work on the atom bomb, with a discussion of the roles that Szilard played until the end of World War II. Today, in part two of my interview with Bill, we focus on Szilard's achievements after the war. Bill is a writer and public policy analyst who has specialized in the history of nuclear energy and nuclear weapons. He received an A.B. in English with a minor in Philosophy at Fordham College in 1963, and M.Sc. and Ph.D. degrees in Political Science at the London School of Economics and the University of London in 1966 and 1973, respectively. Bill then worked as a journalist for Newsweek, The National Observer, and National Journal, and he was the Washington Correspondent for The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. He has also written for The Atlantic, The Economist, Scientific American, The New York Herald Tribune, The Washington Post, and many other outlets. Bill also worked as a Senior Analyst for Energy and Science Issues at the US Government Accountability Office. Bill's first book was Genius in the Shadows: A Biography of Leo Szilard, the Man Behind the Bomb, published by Scribner's in 1992, with later editions published by the University of Chicago Press and Skyhorse Publications. Bill also published, in 2021, The Triumph of the Amateurs: The Rise, Ruin, and Banishment of Professional Rowing in The Gilded Age.

Perhaps the most overlooked scientist who played critical roles in the development of the atomic bomb was Leo Szilard. With us to explore Szilard's numerous contributions to science and society is William Lanouette. Bill is a writer and public policy analyst who has specialized in the history of nuclear energy and nuclear weapons. He received an A.B. in English with a minor in Philosophy at Fordham College in 1963, and M.Sc. and Ph.D. degrees in Political Science at the London School of Economics and the University of London in 1966 and 1973, respectively. Bill then worked as a journalist for Newsweek, The National Observer, and National Journal, and he was the Washington Correspondent for The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. He has also written for The Atlantic, The Economist, Scientific American, The New York Herald Tribune, The Washington Post, and many other outlets. Bill also worked as a Senior Analyst for Energy and Science Issues at the US Government Accountability Office. Bill's first book was Genius in the Shadows: A Biography of Leo Szilard, the Man Behind the Bomb, published by Scribner's in 1992, with later editions published by the University of Chicago Press and Skyhorse Publications. Bill also published, in 2021, The Triumph of the Amateurs: The Rise, Ruin, and Banishment of Professional Rowing in The Gilded Age. In this episode, we discuss all things Szilard: the man, the war, the bomb, the innovations, the collaborations, the accusations of espionage, the conflicts, and even the Martians.

Peter Agre received the 2003 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his discovery of aquaporins. Peter is a Bloomberg Distinguished Professor in Molecular Microbiology and Immunology at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, and he also directed the Johns Hopkins Malaria Research Institute until 2023. Today we discuss the history of malaria research, and Peter reflects on being a scientist. The interview is followed by Peter's keynote lecture for the University of Arizona One Health symposium, which he gave on February 12, 2024.