S2 Ep23: Interview: "Son Ngoc Thanh, a Khmer Nationalist" with Matthew Jagel

Lachlan takes you back through the more than 30 hours of Season 2's storyline that took us through 15 years of Cambodian history. Support the show at https://www.shadowsofutopia.com/support.html 

Were the CIA responsible for the coup against Sihanouk? Why did Lon Nol and Sirik Matak finally make a move against the prince? What did Sihanouk’s removal from power mean for the Khmer Rouge? Time Period Covered 1969 - 1970 In the final episode of this season, Lachlan covers the circumstances that surround the plot to remove Norodom Sihanouk from his position as head of state. Lon Nol and Sirik Matak will take advantage of the problem of Vietnamese troop presence on Cambodian land and turn it into a political necessity to oust the Prince. They would make several miscalculations which would mean that this plan would largely backfire, as Sihanouk joins a resistance front with who he thinks are the Khmer Rouge, as well as the Vietnamese and recieving Chinese aid. Lon Nol’s new government will have to resort to terrible measures to try and deliver on their promises. Please consider supporting the show at https://www.patreon.com/shadowsofutopia  Sources Chandler “Tragedy of Cambodian History” and “Brother Number One” Short “Pol Pot” Shawcross “Sideshow” Heder “Cambodian Communism” Sihanouk “My War With The CIA” Osbourne “Sihanouk” Jagel “Khmer Nationalist” Haing Ngor “Survival in the Killing Fields” Kamm “Report from a Stricken Land”

How did Cambodia become the ‘key’ to Nixon’s plan to end the Vietnam War? What was the secret bombing of Cambodia? How many bombs did the US drop on Cambodia? What factors led to the end of Sihanouk’s leadership of the country? Time Period Covered 1968 - 1969 In this episode Lachlan looks at the gradually degrading situation in Cambodia, and the destabilization prior to a change in the Whitehouse that will only make matters worse. We look at Sihanouk’s movies, the Cambodian economy, and the Khmer Rouge as they continue their ‘armed struggle’ across the country. Nixon’s ascension to power in the USA is explored, his plans for a quick end to the Vietnam War, and the role that Cambodia could play in producing this. Bombing, done in secret, is explained, as well as some comments on the general discourse around the idea of ‘bombs over Cambodia’. Check out the YouTube Channel at https://youtu.be/8QdRvpbMr_w?si=vTEurMs6dDEmjjHI Sources Short “Pol Pot” Chandler “Tragedy of Cambodian History” Shawcross “Sideshow” Mark Atwood Lawrence “Concise History of the Vietnam War” Kiernan “How Pol Pot Came To Power” Osbourne “Sihanouk” Heder “Cambodian Communism and the Vietnamese Model” Article Links https://quillette.com/2023/12/07/kissinger-and-cambodia/ https://gsp.yale.edu/case-studies/cambodian-genocide-program/us-involvement/united-states-bombing-cambodia-1965-1973 Support https://www.patreon.com/shadowsofutopia

How many journalists were able to set foot in Cambodia before the revolution, during the revolution and after the revolution? Not many. Elizabeth Becker is one of those people. In 1973 she began covering the war in Cambodia, in 1978 she was part of a three person delegation which saw the first western journalists to enter into Democratic Kampuchea. There she was witness to, as she describes it a "Twilight Zone" version of Cambodia. She also met Pol Pot. The end of her trip ended in tragedy as one member of the delegation was murdered the same night. A fictionalised version of that story is the subject of Rithy Panh's new film Rendez-vous avec Pol Pot, and I got to speak to Elizabeth about her newest book "You Don't Belong Here", as well as her story and work in Cambodia, witnessing the effects of the 1973 US bombing campaign, her tour of Democratic Kampuchea and much more. Please Note At the beginning of the interview, Elizabeth references a review by David Chandler from 1987 and what it meant to hear this critique in the Khmer Rouge Tribunals. She also gives her reasoning behind why she thinks that criticism was given. I feel it is necessary to mention that Chandler later recommended the book in 2009 amongst other praise, and perhaps the reasons why he had been initially critical: "She manages to tell the dramatic sides, the painful aspects, she builds up a very clear and moving picture. She worked in Cambodia in the early 1970s so she got a feel for the country, she understood what had been damaged and how people were affected. It is a very effective book and I believe that it will stand up to the test of time. I had reservations initially because she wasn’t an insider, and like so many writers she goes into the story through the dark side of the Khmers, the spooky nature of the land and people- in this way foreshadowing Philip Short. I don’t buy into that at all. It’s a small reservation I have, but otherwise this is a wonderful book." That recommendation can be found at https://fivebooks.com/best-books/best-books-cambodia/ Please visit https://www.patreon.com/shadowsofutopia to watch the video of the interview.

What role does the Tet Offensive play in the My Lai Massacre? What circumstances in troop deployment and officer training influenced what happened? Why were more than 500 civilians murdered by Charlie Company? Time Period Covered December 1967 - March 1968 In this episode, Lachlan confronts the horrors that occurred in My Lai on the 16th of March 1968. He attempts to answer why more than 500 civilians were killed, what the context of these killings were, as well as the role that officers such as William Calley had in producing the My Lai Massacre.  Please visit https://www.shadowsofutopia.com/support.html  For Photos and Maps of the My Lai Assault please visit https://www.shadowsofutopia.com/episodes/tet-part-two-the-my-lai-massacre ** Be advised of a mistake in the episode. Hugh Thompson did not receive the "Medal of Honour", but a US Army Soldier's Medal. I meant this as a generality but forgot there is a genuine "Congressional Medal of Honour". Apologies. ** Sources The Peers Inquiry of the Massacre at My Lai 1970 Edward Miller The Vietnam War: A Documentary Reader William Thomas Allison My Lai The Vietnam War Geoffrey War and Ken Burns The Vietnam War Mark Atwood Lawrence Anatomy of US and South Korean Massacres In the Year of the Monkey Heonik Kwon

Lachlan sits down with Matt Madden, translator of Chan Samoeun’s Prisoners of Class. The book, having been recently released in English for the first time, is an amazing example of a Khmer Rouge survivor memoir. They discuss Matt’s journey in finding the original book, meeting the author and translating it over many years. The book itself, including amazing details and descriptions of the world of the ‘life slave’ in Democratic Kampuchea, are discussed and thought about, as well as the contributions to the work that Matt has produced. Please go out and get yourself a copy of the book, the best place to do so is from https://www.mekongriverpress.com/ where you can preview the book, get access to the supplementary material, as well as purchase various editions.    Please take the time to leave a rating or review wherever you get it from! 

What did the Tet offensive achieve? How was the Battle of Hue waged? Why were almost 3000 people murdered by the Viet Cong? Time Period Covered 1968 This episode covers the Tet Offensive of early 1968. Lachlan links the media coverage of the event, with the extreme scenes in Saigon, to the reality of the offensive and what the communists hoped to achieve. In Hue, perhaps the most stunning battle of the offensive took place, as for four weeks the city was occupied by the NVA and NLF. During this time, as a brutal campaign of house-to-house combat took place, the communists embarked upon a reign of terror to reshape the city they had taken, at least 2800 civilians were murdered. Sources Edward Miller The Vietnam War: A Documentary Reader Nha Ca Mourning Headband For Hue The Vietnam War Geoffrey War and Ken Burns The Vietnam War Mark Atwood Lawrence Vietnam Max Hastings The Viet-Cong Strategy of Terror Douglas Pike Hue Mark Bowden

How did the CPK develop their plan to genuinely start a war in Cambodia? Why did Sihanouk seek rapprochment with the United States? How did the bombing of Cambodia begin? Time Period Covered 1967-1968 January 1968 will prove to be a pivotal month for the Vietnamese, Cambodian and American interests in the war. This episode details how the Cambodian communist movement finally began an armed struggle against the Sihanouk government. How the United States negotiated a deal to bomb Cambodia, and how the Vietnamese began a counter attack against the Saigon regime. Sources Philip Short Pol Pot: History of a Nightmare David Chandler The Tragedy of Cambodian History & Brother Number One Ben Kiernan How Pol Pot Came to Power and Peasants & Politics in Kampuchea Milton Osbourne Sihanouk Steve Heder Cambodian Communism and the Vietnamese Model Elizabeth Becker When the War was Over Nic Dunlop Lost Executioner ECCC Case 001 Witness Testimony 2009 Shawcross Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon, and the Destruction of Cambodia CIA FOIA

What led to Mao's launching of a 'cultural revolution' in the People's Republic? What were the aims of this movement? Why did perhaps a million people die at the hands of their countrymen in less than four years? Time Period Covered 1964 - 1969 In what could be considered a belated "Part Two" to the episode introducing Maoism and the Great Leap Forward, Lachlan revisits China and attempts to explain the "Cultural Revolution". Officially launched in 1966, this period of chaos, an example of a cult of personality being used to destroy a system and replace it with a kind of perpetual revolution, would lead China into a near state of anarchy. Radical young Maoists, organised into groups of "Red Guards" terrorised those that they considered to be sufficiently counter to the ideological mandate set by Mao. Philip Short Mao Frank Dikotter The Cultural Revolution: A People's History Andrew Walder China Under Mao Richard Baum Lecture Series

Special guest Matthew Jagel joins Lachlan to talk about his new book: Khmer Nationalist. The book is an exploration of Cambodian history using Son Ngoc Thanh as the central focus, and they join up to talk about Cambodian nationalism, the influence of Imperial Japan, Sihanouk's antagonism, the Khmer Serei and the CIA. Visit https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501769337/khmer-nationalist/  to purchase the book or find Matthew on social media at https://twitter.com/matthew_jagel?s=20  or listen to Matthew's podcast "Napalm in the Morning" on Itunes and Spotify. Visit www.shadowsofutopia.com/support to contribute to the show.