Jennifer Romolini on the Dark Side of Ambition, Experiencing Burnout, and How Workaholism is Connected to Childhood Trauma

There are so many books coming out this month about rethinking women and the workplace—specifically by former magazine editors, which, as a magazine editor, I’m really into. Out today is one of the best books I’ve read in a long time, Samhita Mukhopadhyay’s powerful The Myth of Making It: A Workplace Reckoning, which opens with a beautiful epigraph from Toni Morrison that reads “You are not the work you do; you are the person you are.” So many of us have bought into, as Samhita calls it, the myth of making it—as she writes, our definitions of success are myths, and seductive ones, at that. She writes in the book that we have a collective responsibility to re-imagine work as we know it, and she advocates for a liberated workplace that pays fairly, recognizes our values, and gives people access to the resources they need. The book traces the origins of, basically, how we’ve been getting it all wrong all of these years—I especially enjoyed the rethinking of Helen Gurley Brown, former editor-in-chief at Cosmopolitan and author of Sex and the Single Girl, as well as rethinking Lean In and Girlboss and hustle culture. Samhita writes about how millions of us “in the past decade—and especially during and after the pandemic—have looked at their lives and said, ‘What the fuck?’ Why are we working all the time to make less than our male counterparts? Why are we doing most of the childcare, even when our partnerships are ‘equal’? Why have we sacrificed so much of our personal happiness to be driven by these undefined measures of success? Why were we spending more time with our coworkers than with anyone else in our lives? Why are we tired all the time?” She adds, “The way we work has become untenable, both personally and globally. We are craving something more and something better,” and she adds, of her rock bottom while executive editor at a major fashion magazine, “all I could think was, This is not normal. There must be a better way. My hope is, together, we can find it.” In this book and in this conversation, Samhita discusses the end of the hustle, Anna Wintour, burnout, working moms, and so much more. Samhita is the former executive editor of Teen Vogue and former executive editor at Feministing. As a writer, her work has appeared in New York Magazine, The Cut, Vanity Fair, Vogue, The Atlantic Monthly, and Jezebel. Let’s get into our conversation.   The Myth of Making It: A Workplace Reckoning by Samhita Mukhopadhyay

You may not know the name Judith Jones, but you’ve certainly felt this dynamic woman’s impact and influence on culture. Judith Jones was the editor behind books like The Diary of Anne Frank and Mastering the Art of French Cooking by Julia Child; she was also behind authors like Sylvia Plath, John Updike, Langston Hughes, Sharon Olds, and so many others. Her work, as our guest today writes in her new book, was “unrivaled in the industry.” Book editors are kind of shadow figures—they’re behind-the-scenes, unsung heroes, who, as Sara B. Franklin writes in her book The Editor: How Judith Jones Shaped Culture in America, which came out on May 28, are people who “work in the service of their authors, not themselves, and their touch is meant to be difficult, if not impossible, for readers to see”—a bit of an invisible hand, if you will. Judith Jones rose through the ranks of publishing when it was very much an industry still dominated by men; one of her gifts was the ability to see talent in women writers, especially women writers many had overlooked. It’s hard to believe that, for example, publishers weren’t chomping at the bit for the works of Anne Frank or Julia Child, but they weren’t; it was Judith who saw their books through to the finish line. She is most associated with cookbooks, and Sara writes that Judith may never have fully gotten the respect she so deserved because “books about food were (and to some extent still are) treated with an air of condescension by the literary world.” Sara and I talk about that on the show today, as well as topics like Judith’s portrayal in the 2009 Nora Ephron film Julie & Julia—which Judith didn’t like so much—and some of Judith’s misses, like with the aforementioned Sylvia Plath and The Bell Jar. Through Sara’s book, Judith emerges from the shadows to the spotlight—the amount of passion and dedication Sara put into this bestselling book is remarkable. I can’t wait for you to meet Sara and, through her, meet Judith. A little about Sara: she is a writer, teacher, and oral historian who teaches courses on food, writing, embodied culture, and oral history at NYU’s Gallatin School of Individualized Study. In addition to writing The Editor, she also edited Edna Lewis, co-authored The Phenicia Diner Cookbook, and holds a PhD in food studies from NYU and studied documentary storytelling at both the Duke Center for Documentary Studies and the Salt Institute for Documentary Studies. Take a listen to our conversation.   The Editor: How Judith Jones Shaped Culture in America by Sara B. Franklin

Alzheimer’s and finding a cure for it is a cause I am deeply passionate about; we have spoken about it on the show many times before. I couldn’t be more thrilled to bring you today’s guest, Dr. Heather Sandison, who is here to talk to us about her brand-new book Reversing Alzheimer’s: The New Toolkit to Improve Cognition and Protect Brain Health, which came out June 11. This book is a much-needed exploration of this awful disease, and how both patients and their caregivers can take back control. There are currently 6.5 million Americans alone living with Alzheimer’s, and that number only grows. As Dr. Sandison writes, the urgency for a solution has never been greater, and this book helps us find one. Dr. Sandison is at the forefront of dementia care and research. She is both the founder of Solcere Health Clinic (which is San Diego’s premier brain optimization clinic) and also Marama, the first residential memory care facility to have the goal and aim of returning cognitively declined residents back to independent living. She sees up close and personal every single day what Alzheimer’s and dementia looks like, and she’s doing something about both preventing it and reversing it. The main takeaway that I got from Reversing Alzheimer’s was that there is hope, and that we have more power to fight back against this disease than we previously thought we did. There is a growing body of evidence that shows that implementing a handful of strategies can improve cognition and quality of life in dementia patients, and this book lays out this customizable and doable approach so that work can begin immediately in that effort. If you are looking to fortify your brain health against cognitive decline, implement lifestyle changes that can reverse the effects of Alzheimer’s, transform your environment to support cognitive wellness, and understand options for brain health to fit any budget—this book is for you. This book, for anyone who has experienced Alzheimer’s up close, is a big exhale; Dr. Sandison wants a future where Alzheimer’s is not a terminal diagnosis, but a reversible condition, a future free of the affliction of this disease. I think you, like me, will find hope in these pages and in this conversation. Dr. Sandison is a renowned neuropathic doctor specializing in neurocognitive medicine and is also the primary author of the peer-reviewed research “Observed Improvement in Cognition During a Personalized Lifestyle Intervention in People with Cognitive Decline,” which was published in the Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease last August. She also hosts the annual online Reverse Alzheimer’s Summit, where she shares cutting-edge insight into what is possible for those suffering with dementia. Dr. Sandison is the doctor I wish my family had when my grandparents were suffering with dementia, but one that I’m also so glad is here now with the mission of making dementia rare and optional, and to shatter common misconceptions about Alzheimer’s and share what she has learned about keeping our brains sharp, no matter our age.   Reversing Alzheimer’s: The New Toolkit to Improve Cognition and Protect Brain Health by Dr. Heather Sandison

I’m really excited to bring you today’s conversation with Erika Ayers Badan, who you might know as the woman formerly known as Erika Nardini. (Erika got married, and that explains the name change.) Erika is perhaps most well-known as not just the first female CEO of Barstool Sports, but the first CEO of Barstool Sports, period. If you’re not familiar with Barstool somehow, it’s a sports and pop culture blog that also has podcasts and videos under its umbrella—it’s not afraid to be controversial and shake the industry up, and I think maybe the best word to describe the company is chaotic. Intentionally chaotic. Erika was extremely successful at Barstool, which grew to more than 5 billion monthly video views and 225 million followers under her leadership and was valued at $550 million. During her time at Barstool, Erika referred to herself, very tongue-in-cheek, as a “token CEO,” not only the rare female employee but, again, the CEO of a very male-dominated culture. Not only has Erika experienced ample professional success—and I’ll talk more about that in a moment—but she is someone who clearly just loves to work. She loves what she does. She is invigorated and energized by it, and I relate to that, because I am the same way. Erika’s first book is out today, June 11, and is called Nobody Cares About Your Career: Why Failure Is Good, the Great Ones Play Hurt, and Other Hard Truths, and it is basically a career manual for women and men on how to get it done and have a career that means something. It’s advice from someone who is firmly in the arena; it’s real and raw, tell it to you straight—much like Erika herself. There’s more advice in this book than I could ever give in this episode—it’s page after page of it—and this book is all-encompassing; it really is a career guide I’ll keep with me and return to and return to, again and again. It’s a playbook for success by somebody who has found it. Erika was CEO at Barstool from 2016 until earlier this year, January to be exact; she led the company from 12 employees to over 300 employees, and saw it become a national powerhouse under her leadership. Prior to joining Barstool, Erika held leadership positions at Microsoft, AOL, Demand Media, and Yahoo, and is now, as of April of this year, CEO at Food52, a culinary, lifestyle, and homeware company. One of my favorite aspects of Erika’s philosophy is her fail-always mindset—she embraces failure and doesn’t run from it or shy away from it. As she writes, “Falling down and getting back up—awkwardly at first, but, over time, more gracefully—is what has made my career successful.” There’s a ton of good nuggets here, and I can’t wait for you to read this book and hear our conversation.   Nobody Cares About Your Career: Why Failure Is Good, the Great Ones Play Hurt, and Other Hard Truths by Erika Ayers Badan

Just when you think you know everything there is to know about the White House, here comes Corey Mead and his book The Hidden History of the White House: Power Struggles, Scandals, and Defining Moments, which came out June 4. This book is presented by the hit podcast “American History Tellers,” and it reveals behind-the-scenes stories of some of the most dramatic events in American history, told from right inside the White House where they happened. Talk about “if these walls could talk”—the White House has been the soundstage for some of the most climactic moments in American history, and its walls have witnessed history-making decisions, power struggles, scandals, and so many stories from the First Family, their guests, and the staff at the White House. Just some of the topics delved into were Andrew Jackson’s disastrous inauguration; Woodrow Wilson’s stroke and his second wife Edith’s basically shadow presidency as his administration came to a close; Dolley Madison’s courageous act when the White House was set aflame in 1814; when U.K. Prime Minister Winston Churchill visited the White House and plotted, with FDR, plans to defeat Germany; and the decision by Barack Obama to green-light the Navy SEAL raid that ultimately killed Osama bin Ladin. I talk about this with Corey, but maybe one of the most fascinating parts to me about the book—and I wasn’t expecting this—was the actual construction of the White House itself and its subsequent renovations, especially the 1948 Truman renovation, which we talk about on the show today. The book is broken into three parts: part one, Laying the Foundation; part two, The People’s House; and part three, Halls of Power—each as fascinating as the last. As Corey writes in the book, “Every corner and hallway has a tale to tell,” and there’s so many of those tales in this book. We have Corey Mead on the show today, the author of this great book and also an associate professor of English at Baruch College, City University of New York. In addition to this book, Corey is also the author of Angelic Music: The Story of Benjamin Franklin’s Glass Armonica and War Play: Video Games and the Future of Armed Conflict. You can also find his work everywhere from Time to Salon, The Daily Beast, and numerous literary journals, and I know you’ll enjoy this conversation.   P.S.: The Rebecca Boggs Roberts episode we mention in this conversation about First Lady Edith Wilson is from season 7, episode 6!   The Hidden History of the White House: Power Struggles, Scandals, and Defining Moments by Corey Mead

I’m pulling out the champagne and raising a glass to I’d Rather Be Reading, my passion project and the work of my life, a show that celebrates nonfiction books (and, occasionally, some fiction books and children’s books and cookbooks, too) which aired its first episode three years ago today, on June 7, 2021. Happy three-year anniversary, listeners! Our very first episode on the show was a conversation with Lisa Napoli about her book Susan, Linda, Nina, and Cokie: The Extraordinary Story of the Founding Mothers of NPR, about, at its core, women in journalism. As such, to tie it all together with a bow today, our anniversary special features a trailblazing woman in journalism: the dynamic Lynn Povich. Simply put, my career would not exist without Lynn’s courage. Let’s go back in time to the early 1970s. Lynn was working at Newsweek, and at the time, that magazine, like others at the time as well, only hired men as writers. Women did the researching and reporting, but the men got the byline. Lynn writes in her 2012 book The Good Girls Revolt: How the Women of Newsweek Sued Their Bosses and Changed the Workplace that Newsweek had a serious problem—sexism—and that, in her words, “we all accepted it—until we didn’t.” Lynn and a group of 46 other women ultimately sued the magazine for sex discrimination, becoming the first women in the media to sue for sex discrimination and taking part in the first female class action suit. Lynn’s book, Good Girls Revolt, is the first full account of the Newsweek suit, which, by the way, was later turned into a series on Amazon Prime that I loved. Lynn writes that, prior to the lawsuit, “I don’t think it occurred to many of us that we could actually change the system” and continues “in 1970 we challenged the system and changed the conversation in the news media for the women who participated in the lawsuits. The struggle rerouted our lives and bonded us and gave many of us opportunities.” Lynn went on to become Newsweek’s first female senior editor in 1975 and had a 25-year career at the magazine; she left it in 1991 and has since become editor-in-chief of Working Woman magazine and managing editor and senior executive producer for MSNBC.com. Lynn is from a famed journalism family, and she edited a book of columns by her father, renowned Washington Post sports journalist Shirley Povich called All Those Mornings…At the Post; her brother, by the way, is Maury Povich, and her sister-in-law is Connie Chung. I’d love to be at that family dinner table! Lynn’s husband is also a journalist; his name is Stephen Shepard, and he is the former editor-in-chief of Business Week and founding dean of the graduate school of journalism of the City University of New York. There’s no better person I could think of to mark this important day for our show than Lynn Povich, and I’m excited for you to hear from her today. The Good Girls Revolt: How the Women of Newsweek Sued Their Bosses and Changed the Workplace by Lynn Povich

When I invited Garrett M. Graff on the show, I did so to chat about his incredible book The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11, which came out in 2019. What I didn’t realize was that, by happenstance, Garrett had another oral history coming out in June, released two days before the eightieth anniversary of D-Day, which is today, June 6. I don’t feel like I have to explain the attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001, but just in case you don’t remember the details of D-Day, on June 6, 1944, the invasion of the beaches at Normandy in northern France by troops from the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and other countries during World War II is one of the most important days in world history; historians often refer to D-Day as the beginning of the end of World War II. At the time, the D-Day invasion was the largest naval, air, and land operation in history, and about 326,000 troops, more than 50,000 vehicles, and some 100,000 tons of equipment had landed. By August 1944, two months later, all of northern France had been liberated, and in the spring of 1945, the Allies defeated the Germans and World War II, blessedly, was over. Today, June 6, 2024, matters, because it’s likely the last anniversary that we will still have any living veterans from that day here with us, as the Greatest Generation has all but left us. Before I go any further, I want to honor those who served on D-Day and in World War II and in any conflict; I also want to honor the lives lost on September 11, 2001. It makes me emotional to think of the debt of gratitude we owe those who served and those who serve, present day. Thank you seems insufficient, but I offer it, nonetheless. Garrett M. Graff, our guest today, has mastered the art of the oral history, a unique way to unpack history that makes it very focused on the human element. Though we do talk about Garrett’s latest book about D-Day, When the Sea Came Alive: An Oral History of D-Day, which came out this past Tuesday, June 4, I’d say the bulk of our conversation is about September 11 and The Only Plane in the Sky, which really is such a vivid human portrait of that tragedy. It is a 360-degree view of the day, a comprehensive, full account of one of the worst days in American history. Garrett has spent nearly two decades covering politics, technology, and national security and is the former editor of Politico. He’s a contributor to CNN and Wired and has written for outlets like Esquire, Rolling Stone, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and The New York Times; he also serves as the director of the cyber initiative at the Aspen Institute. In addition to the two aforementioned books, he’s also written The First Campaign: Globalization, the Web, and the Race for the White House, which examined the role of technology in the 2008 presidential race; The Threat Matrix, about the FBI; Raven Rock, about the government’s Cold War Doomsday plans; and the New York Times bestseller Watergate, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in History. The Only Plane in the Sky was also a New York Times bestseller, by the way, and I have no doubt that When the Sea Came Alive will be, as well. He taught at Georgetown for seven years, including courses on journalism and technology, and he’s appeared everywhere from Good Morning America to The Today Show, CBS This Morning, the History Channel, the BBC, Al Jazeera English, and more. He also hosts the podcast “Long Shadow,” an eight-episode series about the lingering questions of 9/11. In this episode, Garrett and talk about these two powerful days in history, ones that should never be forgotten from memory.   All by Garrett M. Graff: The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11 When the Sea Came Alive: An Oral History of D-Day “We’re the Only Plane in the Sky” for Politico

I wasn’t expecting, through Jennifer Romolini’s memoir Ambition Monster, to feel as seen as I was. About workaholism. Ambition addiction. Achievement addiction. Why I am that way. Why I experienced debilitating burnout, which, if you’ve ever experienced true burnout, you know what I mean when I say it is truly debilitating. And then, from the book to this conversation—I don’t like to play favorites, but this conversation has to rank up there with my absolute favorite episodes of this show’s 215 or so episodes. It felt more like a therapy session than an interview. Whatever you want to call it—hustle culture, Girl Boss-ing it, I heard a new term this week actually called “grindset” instead of “mindset”—whatever you want to call it, I know I’m not the only one influenced and affected by it. Jennifer’s book is about what happens when ambition—which certainly is a good thing—turns bad. What happens when workaholism sneaks in, and how this actually relates to childhood trauma. What happens when you get everything you’ve ever dreamed of, and then realize that it’s not enough to fill that hole inside you. And, at last, filling that hole with what is really sustaining, and it’s not work. Achievement addiction and ambition addiction and constantly trying to prove yourself, that addiction—it may not be drugs or booze or gambling or shopping, but it’s an addiction, nonetheless, and nothing done to excess like that is good for you. Jennifer raced up the professional ladder and reached the apex of success: she had a high-profile, C-suite dream job, and even traveled around the country giving speeches on how to make it and what it feels like to have made it. Beyond that, she had a handsome husband, a beautiful child, but, as the book puts it, “beneath this polished surface was a powder keg of unresolved trauma and chronic overwork. It was all about to blow.” This book will make you rethink the way we work, and rethink ambition on the whole. Jennifer co-hosts the podcast “Everything Is Fine,” which examines life for women over 40, with Lucky magazine founding editor Kim France (the show is one of my all-time favorites, though I’m not quite 40); she’s also the author of Weird in a World That’s Not: A Career Guide for Misfits, Fuckups, and Failures, and her work has appeared in outlets like The New York Times, Elle, Fast Company, Vogue, and more. She was a magazine editor in the 2000s, won awards for websites she edited in the 2010s, was a former deputy editor at Lucky alongside Kim, and was also the former Chief Content Officer of ShondaLand.com (as in, yes, the one and only Shonda Rhimes), Vice President of Content for Zooey Deschanel’s HelloGiggles, a writer, speaker, and digital media consultant who likes talking and thinking about women and work. In 2019, Jennifer was asked to be one of 10 authors tasked with creating The New York Times’ “Working Women’s Handbook,” so, yeah, she knows a little bit about women and work. Ambition Monster examines the lies women were and are sold about work and one of my least favorite three-word combination ever, “having it all,” and before we get into it, I should warn you that there is some ample cursing in this episode, as there tends to be when a subject resonates so close to home.   Ambition Monster: A Memoir by Jennifer Romolini “Society’s Twisted Pleasure in Seeing Strong Women Fail” in Variety True Love by Jennifer Lopez Three Women by Lisa Taddeo

Welcome back to I’d Rather Be Reading—both the start of season 12 and, later this week, our three-year anniversary! We’ve got so much good in store this season, and I’m thrilled, as ever, to be back with you after one long week of a hiatus. Today on the show we have Julie Satow, who is here to chat with me about her latest book, When Women Ran Fifth Avenue: Glamour and Power at the Dawn of American Fashion, which is out June 4. This book and this conversation take us back to the twentieth century department store, a place where women—whether you worked at the department store or were shopping there—could stake out newfound independence, whether you were in New York City or on Main Street USA. Back in the 1930s and going forward to the 1960s, women didn’t rule many places—but they ruled the American department store. Not only is the American department store of those years examined—it’s a whole world unto itself inside its walls—but it’s a story told through the eyes of three women who rose to the top of the department store universe: Hortense Odlum of Bonwit Teller, who came to her husband’s department store as a housewife tasked with attracting more shoppers like herself in the 1930s—and wound up running the company; then we have Dorothy Shaver of Lord & Taylor, who was a champion of American designers during World War II, before which U.S. fashions were almost completely copies of Parisian looks. Dorothy, by the way, was the first businesswoman to earn a $1 million salary. Then, in the 1960s, Geraldine Stutz of Henri Bendel modernized the department store and became an eternal trendsetter in the space. Not only did these women advance their own careers, but they opened doors for all women, as well. We’ve got style, glamour, women’s empowerment, drama, trade secrets, wealth—it’s the department store in all its glitz, decadence, and fun, and looks closely at the women who made the beautifully curated world of the twentieth century department store operate and opened doors for working women everywhere. I am so thankful that, through this book, Julie is ensuring that these three women aren’t lost to history; their fingerprints are still felt today, in both fashion and business. Here to lead us on this journey is Julie Satow, who also wrote the fantastic book The Plaza: The Secret Life of America’s Most Famous Hotel, which was a huge hit and critically acclaimed. Julie is an award-winning journalist, a regular contributor to The New York Times, and she has also been published in Travel + Leisure and Bloomberg Businessweek and appeared on NPR. Take a listen to our conversation!   Both by Julie Satow: When Women Ran Fifth Avenue: Glamour and Power at the Dawn of American Fashion The Plaza: The Secret Life of America’s Most Famous Hotel

We have come to our season 11 finale, unbelievably, and to mark the occasion we have the fantastic, dynamic Sunny Hostin here to talk about her latest book, the third novel in her New York Times bestselling Summer Beach series, Summer on Highland Beach, which is out May 28. The best fiction, to me, not only takes me away, but teaches me something—and Summer on Highland Beach did just that. Highland Beach along the Chesapeake Bay is the oldest Black resort community in America and was founded in the late 1800s by the son of Frederick Douglass. It is a secluded beach community of about 100 private homes, and that’s where Sunny’s latest novel takes us to. As has become a trademark of her Summer Beach series, this book celebrates family, friendship, and community, and reminds us both of the importance of the legacies of our collective past but also about finding one’s way in the world in the present. Olivia Jones is the star of the show in this book, and her story continues to be told by Sunny, who is a three-time Emmy Award winner and a co-host of ABC’s popular The View. She is also an attorney and the Senior Legal Correspondent and Analyst for ABC News and the author, of course, of the other two books in the Summer Beach series: Summer on the Bluffs and Summer on Sag Harbor, both of which I inhaled, as well as Summer on Highland Beach. She is also the author of her memoir, I Am These Truths: A Memoir of Identity, Justice, and Living Between Worlds. I wasn’t aware of an HBBC—or a Historically Black Beach Community—until I read Sunny’s Summer Beach series. These communities have flown pretty under the radar until Sunny brought them to life through this trilogy, and this series absolutely uses place and setting as a character, which listeners, you know I love. Summer on Highland Beach closes the Summer Beach series, and I can’t wait for you to hear what Sunny has to say—I found her to be an absolute joy to be with.   All by Sunny Hostin: Summer on Highland Beach Summer on the Bluffs Summer on Sag Harbor I Am These Truths: A Memoir of Identity, Justice, and Living Between Worlds