The Art of Not Getting Fired for Not Firing People

Kelli and Nolan start with a heartfelt discussion about LA fires before diving into the art of handling CEO mandates for attrition targets. They reveal insider strategies for transforming harsh directives into meaningful performance frameworks, while warning against becoming the dreaded "person of no."*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsRELATED PODCAST:KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:17) Offer of Support for the California Wildfires(03:44) Dear Heretics(04:00) Question on Mandated Attrition Targets(05:15) Contextualizing Performance Targets(06:32) Genesis of these Performance Discussions(07:00) Examples of Poor Implementation: Tesla's RIFs(08:03) Sponsor: Metaview(10:05) RIFs versus Performance(10:42) How to respond to a CEO who says fire the bottom 5%(12:40) The Importance of Defining 'Why'(13:23) CEOs and the complexity of execution(14:00) Reframing the Problem for CEO's(14:31) The tactical anxiety of HR leaders(15:42) Pre and Post Pandemic Environments(16:23) The danger of being the "no" person/team(17:18) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Colin Zima, former Looker exec turned Omni CEO, reveals how he runs a 65-person Series A startup with no HR or G&A team. Learn why he believes in minimal bureaucracy, why founders should do the "dirty work," and what really breaks after a Google acquisition.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH COLIN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINColin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinzimaNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—CHECK OUT:Omni: https://omni.co/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction(01:44) No G&A at Omni(04:50) Learning by Doing(09:10) Maximizing Roles (10:23) The Need for G&A (12:53) Sponsor: Metaview(14:49) Benefits of Doing the Work(15:32) Hiring a People Leader(18:19) Contractors vs FTEs(20:39) In-Office vs Remote (23:08) Homogenous Culture (26:25) Recruiting for Non-Networked People (29:31) Performance Management (32:24) Sales Ops and Performance (34:47) Unique Recruiting at Omni (37:00) Looker Acquisition by Google(42:24) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

From Square to Nextdoor, Bryan Power reveals why copying Big Tech's playbook might be your biggest mistake.Find out why Square banned hiring from the payments industry while building a payments company. Discover how conventional wisdom about senior talent can become startup kryptonite and why the safe choice isn't always the smart choice.Bryan Power is a veteran Silicon Valley People executive who's shaped talent strategy at tech giants like Google and Yahoo, built Square from 150 employees, and now leads People at Nextdoor where he champions innovative approaches to hiring and leadership development.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH BRYAN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINBryan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanpowerNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—CHECK OUT:Nextdoor:https://nextdoor.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (00:48) Nextdoor Leadership Transition (02:10) Founder's Mentality & Return (04:03) Six Years at Nextdoor - Career Journey (05:29) Growth vs. Turnaround Experience (07:59) The False Signal of Company Logos (10:29) Square's Early Days & Recruiting(12:25) Leadership Training at Square (15:07) Sponsor: Metaview(17:01) Culture and Training Truths(21:30) Innovation vs. Industry Experience (25:59) The Pattern Matching Trap (29:39) Talent Density Discussion (33:58) Performance Management & Up-leveling (40:34)) Big Company vs. Startup Dynamics (43:07) Aligning with Different Leadership Styles (47:14) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Happy New Year from HR Heretics!Together, we've built something extraordinary: a community of forward-thinking HR professionals who dare to question the status quo, welcome straight talk, and thrive on healthy debate.In today's special year-end episode, we're sharing some of our top moments, most controversial takes, and the conversations that simply blew our minds with new approaches to people, hiring, managing, and shaping the culture of high performing teams. Think of this as your ultimate HR Heretics highlight reel – where spicy takes meet practical wisdom.So whether you're a longtime heretic or just discovering us today, buckle up. Come January 2nd 2025, we'll be back with new guests.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:Molly Graham: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3gegNOB1RSWuKofaWcjYWS?si=AGhfhyhgRsu8LSUlN7wtjgTomas Tungusz: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1B4aYWnV9pJkcQuCgq1tTy?si=d-iRpEMrQX62JwiKQi9nGgVijay Pendakur: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4ccUUyNPVUjBEc3V9h1SEf?si=LLhIXfbkSMaWaIyPnfHmfAPatty McCord: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2nHxmrGnGFJ23ropYPc4YE?si=9WzJ1VdnQjS4vlS7kbBy8AAndy Price: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2LmfYrgz58M1bjU4kj8t7i?si=UpCAZwNkR_SVg-29AY-_ZgColleen McCreary: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0WuLzUYeDaPIsOTbtTCZFD?si=EnzuH3v-S9SO1zTCBvBwngBrett McQueener: https://open.spotify.com/episode/666pMzHni919QMMhe4NPWQ?si=vRyeGi3XSEuHaEjKZQFVewMatt Oberhart: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6lYnLlZrBGNZOdw97NoElB?si=vwJTyZp4SIyQzgDQY6eOFALJ Brock: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0Jj5U59L703HKVZNg9QJef?si=5Oz5FpnDT9yHO2YekmY9jwDHH: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6AD2rSoIi9gF0WlZ3gqoz3?si=Km774GZJSraHW4ljuI0f-gPeterson Conway: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5jQ2TsSMMmlWuJ3vAayHoR?si=SdnrYwnZQQSo4f5tR2XLfw--TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:15) Molly Graham(00:53) Tomas Tungusz(02:03) Vijay Pendakur(03:15) Patti McCord(04:44) Andy Price(05:50) Colleen McCreary(06:41) Brett McQueener(07:49)  Matt Oberhart(08:44) LJ Brock(09:46) DHH(10:56) Peterson Conway(12:21) Nolan's Best(14:14) Kelli's Best(15:02) Wrap(15:08) Sponsor: Metaview This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

It’s been quite a year! Kelli and Nolan bare it all in their 2024 wrap-up. Get their must-read books, binge-worthy podcasts, and raw personal journeys - including Kelly's identity crisis and Nolan's toughest year yet. Plus, hear why 2025 might be the year to go 'risk on' and why your company's headcount could be holding you back. No fluff, just real talk from two HR leaders who've been there.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:53) Reflections on 2024(07:24) Best of 2024 - Books(11:13) Best of 2024 - Podcasts(14:47) Sponsor: Metaview(16:20) The Real Talk: Our Raw 2024 Stories(19:16) Bold Predictions and Why 2025 Will Hit Different(28:45) That’s a Wrap 🎁 This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Are digital workers coming for your job? In this episode, Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos— our resident AI expert— breaks down the rise of AI-powered SDRs and what it means for the future of work. From 11x.ai's $75M raise to replace human sales reps, to broader implications for recruiting and tech roles, discover why VCs are betting big on AI labor. This is a candid discussion about job displacement, productivity gains, and why getting your hands dirty with AI might be your best career move.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINSiadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—CHECK OUT: Metaview: https://www.metaview.ai/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:00) 11x.ai and Their Products (Alice & Mike) (02:03) Discussion of VCs' Interest in AI Labor Market (03:43) Labor vs Software Market Size Comparison (05:37) Evolution of Software Sales Models (07:18) Current State and Limitations of AI SDRs (08:15) Discussion of AI Job Displacement (09:01) Types of Roles Most Affected by AI (12:42) Historical Context of Automation in Tech (14:12) Future of Work and AI Integration (16:39) Sponsor: Metaview (17:59) Company Spending and Hiring Philosophy (20:00) Future of Recruiting and AI Integration (23:21) Historical Job Evolution and Future Opportunities (25:15) Importance of Hands-on AI Experience (26:24) Impact of AI on Engineering Productivity (27:05) AI's Effect on Recruiter Efficiency (27:53) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Ever wondered why your HR team feels like a bunch of separate countries? Tune in as Kelli and Nolan reveal why mixing your People Ops like finger paint might be the secret sauce to scaling – and why that messy feeling means you're actually crushing it.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:21) Dear Heretics Question: Cross-Functional HR Collaboration (01:11) The Missing Link in HR Teams (02:42) DoorDash's GM Model & Early Learnings (04:36) The Weekly Business Review Magic (05:13) Building One Cohesive HR Experience (07:09) The Color Gradient Approach to HR (08:01) Sponsor: Metaview(09:42) Pod Structure: SWAT Teams for People Ops (10:38) Embracing Regular Reorgs (11:44) Why Messy HR is Good HR (12:29) Mobility as a Silo-Breaker (13:05) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Chris Yeh – author, venture partner, and co-writer of Blitzscaling (with Reid Hoffman) – shares insights from his multifaceted career as a Silicon Valley insider. Yeh discusses staying relevant in tech, the necessary skill of unlearning, and why traveling with potential partners might be the best way to assess compatibility. Yeh gives our listeners a masterclass in adaptability and authentic leadership.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire athttps://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH CHRIS, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINChris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisyehNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—RELATED LINKS:* Infinite Learning - Why Unlearning Is The Critical Learning Skill | Chris Yeh | TEDxGrandviewHeights* The Lightning-Fast Path to Building Massively Valuable Companies: https://www.blitzscaling.com/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (01:20) Chris's Palpable Energy (02:54) Passion vs Skill (04:08) Charisma in Leadership (08:09) Unlearning Old Things (14:29) Sponsor: Metaview(15:41) Writing a Book with Reid Hoffman (23:57) Picking and Prioritizing Projects(24:58) Staying Relevant (27:15) Blitzscaling: Adaptability & Resilience (32:21) What Would Chris Take Back from Blitzscaling? (37:01) Picking Companies as an Employee (40:25) Assessing a Founder (43:15) Bias in Assessments (45:16) Negotiating Founder Shares (51:55) Choosing Principles over Numbers (51:55) Offer Package Hack (53:28) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Tired of hearing "HR needs to be more business-focused" without any real direction? In this episode, Kelli and Nolan cut through the noise with actionable insights from veteran CPO Jeff Diana. Learn why joining sales calls, understanding your P&L, and getting your hands dirty in customer support might be your secret weapons. Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire athttps://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH JEFF, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINJeff: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-diana-a1906212/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:14) HR is a Business Function: Action vs. Rhetoric(02:09) The Business-First Approach Do's and Don'ts(04:19) Fostering a Deeper Understanding of the Business(06:01) Product Certification and Experiential Learning(06:57) Understanding a Founder's Emotional Investment (even if it seems irrational)(08:52) Knowing the Numbers(13:14) Strategic Time Investment and Knowledge Acquisition(15:56) Including Customer Success in Knowledge Gathering(16:18) Sponsor: Metaview(17:38) Internal Reviews and Cross-Functional Collaboration(19:01) Internal Best Practices and Efficiency(20:47) Growing Fluidity Between HR and other Business Functions(21:14) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Ever wonder what happens when HR leaders get real about C-suite scrutiny? Join Kelli, Nolan and friend of the podcast, Colleen McCreary, as they spill the tea on transforming those dreaded "show me the numbers" moments into power moves. Turns out, the secret sauce isn't hiding from spreadsheets—it's owning them with style.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:14) Increasing Scrutiny of HR budgets from CEOs, CFOs, and Board Members(01:50) Stakeholder Management and Proactive Planning(04:42) Assume Good Intent and Take Ownership(06:35) Earned Trust and Common Experience(08:05) Sponsor: Metaview(09:12) New Roles and Re-establishing Credibility and the CFOs Perspective(10:36) Advice and Next Steps(12:07) Closing and Outro This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com