HR Spy Games: Deel vs Rippling

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss the profound impact of personal crises on work life. They share vulnerable stories about caring for ill family members—Kelli's mother's recent stage four cancer diagnosis and Nolan's father-in-law's illness and passing. They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance of workplace support networks, and practical advice for both those experiencing crises and colleagues supporting them.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit https://thatch.AI/HR for a demo and receive a $100 gift card. Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (02:24) Impact of Crisis on Professional Life (03:19) Becoming a Parent to Your Parent (03:41) The Adrenaline Phase vs. Reality Setting In (04:18) Nolan's Story of His Father-in-Law (05:47) How Crisis Changes Your Perspective (07:11) The Impossibility of Compartmentalizing Life (08:02) The Importance of Strong Work Relationships (09:21) The Speed of Life-Changing Events (10:01) Gaining Wisdom Through Difficulty (10:18) The Value of Having a Coach (12:22) Using Your Support System Effectively (13:19) Finding a New Balance in Crisis (14:10) Practical Ways to Help Someone in Crisis (14:49) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful(17:00) Navigating the Healthcare System (18:03) The Critical Need for Medical Advocacy (19:35) How Crisis Impacts Your Work Priorities (20:17) Asking the Right Questions When Supporting Others (21:04) Sponsor: Metaview This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Nolan and Kelli discuss recent HR tech industry drama involving Rippling and Deel, where a "spy" from Deel allegedly infiltrated Rippling to steal competitive information.They describe Rippling's elaborate "honeypot" trap to catch Deel's corporate spy and how this incident exemplifies the evolution of business conflicts from private disputes to public social media spectacles, highlighting workplace transparency's growing complexity.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:13) Deel and Rippling Drama(05:00) Rippling's Allegation: Spy in Dublin Office(06:19) The 'Honeypot' Trap Explanation(07:48) "That's Not a Honeypot, That's a Mousetrap"(09:00) Corporate Espionage More Common Than People Think(12:00) Going Public on Twitter as the "Master Stroke"(14:00) Sponsor: Metaview(16:16) New Era of CEOs Going to War(17:15) The Next Phase: Everything Is Public Now(19:24) The Spy Locks Himself in the Bathroom(22:04) Sunlight Is the Best Disinfectant This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Nolan and Kelli welcome back friend of the pod David Hanrahan, who's just 60 days into his new role as CHRO at SolarWinds. The conversation kicks off with candid reflections on the Transform 2025 conference - the good, the bad, and what's missing from HR conferences today. They also dig into David's challenges and learnings transitioning to his new role, and a discussion on the changes coming for L&D initiatives.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH DAVID, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINDavid: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhanrahan/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:Solarwinds: https://www.solarwinds.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction(00:37) David's Take on Transform(03:33) The Grittiness of HR(05:42) Value of In-Person Relationships(08:50) Transform's Community Session(10:36) Blackjack, Craps, and the Games(11:28) David's New Role at SolarWinds(15:35) Sponsor: Metaview(17:29) G Suite vs Microsoft Outlook(18:00) Juggling New Job Responsibilities(20:35) Katie Burke's Self Reflection(22:18) Painful Changes and Lessons from Multiple CHRO Roles(25:03) The Weird Moment for L & D(28:55) Effective Leadership Development(33:41) David's BHAG: Leadership Development(35:29) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In another edition of 'Dear Heretics' Nolan and Kelli tackle talent calibration sessions. They address how HR needs to balance facilitation versus providing opinions and establish clear processes beforehand. They explore calibration's dual purpose: ensuring consistent evaluation standards and developing forward-looking talent plans. Above all, calibration needs to be an iterative process requiring transparency and company-wide understanding to avoid becoming toxic or misunderstood.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:13) Intro(00:56) The Fine Line of HR Facilitation(01:46) Setting Process Rules Before Calibration(03:35) HR Should Opine with Objectivity(05:47) The New York Times Test(06:26) Sponsor: Metaview(08:20) Purpose of Calibration Sessions(09:37) Importance of Forward-Looking Discussions(10:35) Calibration Process Flow(12:16) Transparency Across the Company(13:10) Building the Calibration Muscle(14:27) Real-World Implementation(15:30) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Kelli and Nolan are joined by Roxanne Petraeus, CEO of Ethena, to talk about her journey from the US army to founding an HR tech company. She shares her views on leadership, the distinction between training and learning, and building a culture of intellectual meritocracy in a remote-first environment. The conversation explores how compliance training evolved from her military experiences, covers the role of Chief People Officers, and reveals how military discipline shaped her approach to building high-performance tech cultures without superficial perks.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH ROXANNE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINRoxanne: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roxanne-bras-petraeus-2292b8109/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—RECOMMENDATIONS:Ethena: https://www.goethena.com/‘We’re not recording’ podcast with Roxanne Petraeus:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTcvuUiuTe9nFXLMIPy4gjHv67-bFl8Do—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:36) How Roxanne ended up in the Army (03:29) Career path from Army to McKinsey to founder (04:29) The insight behind Ethena's founding (07:11) Problems with traditional LMS approaches (10:04) Debate on employee vs company-driven learning (14:00) Making training relevant to day-to-day work (15:43) Sponsor: Metaview(17:38) The best L&D: great managers and top performers (20:47) Learning from people vs structured courses (22:40) Hiring a CPO at an HR tech company (24:45) Building a culture of intellectual meritocracy (27:27) Founders set company culture, not HR (28:44) The expanding role of modern CPOs (33:08) Functional leaders' accountability vs HR (35:19) CPO as strategic partner and executive coach (37:55) Maintaining high talent density and expectations (41:33) Leading a female-led company with high standards (43:16) Thanksgiving with David Petraeus(43:54) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Friend of the pod Colleen McCreary discusses some big news: her return to a CPO role at a remote-first public company (Confluent). She shares insights on navigating the first 90 days, organizational change, implementing a company-wide initiative to eliminate unnecessary processes, and gearing up for lots of 1:1s. Colleen, Kelli, and Nolan discuss transparent leadership, building community in remote environments, and bringing humanity to workplace policies—all while balancing the challenges of joining an established company as an executive with a public reputation*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess—Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINColleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficerNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(2:28) Remote Work Authenticity Challenges During the Pandemic(5:19) How the CPO Role Has Changed in Today's Market(10:14) Joining a Public Company as CPO with a Public Persona(14:29) Sponsor: Metaview(19:51) Creating a "Remove the B******t" Company OKR(25:41) Building Community in Remote-First Organizations(28:25) Bringing Humanity to Crisis Response in HR(30:17) Tackling Compensation Transparency as a New CPO(31:02) Continuous Improvement Over Perfection in Leadership(37:25) Balancing Multiple CPO Responsibilities While Driving Change This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Nolan and Kelli discuss tech job search strategies, emphasizing proactive networking over mass applications., and recommend targeted outreach with concise value propositions that highlight business impact. They stress building relationships both inside and outside your company, maintaining professional connections, and adapting to a job market that increasingly demands quantifiable contributions.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess—Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:13) Struggling to Find a New Role (01:02) Principle #1: Avoid Applying to Jobs(01:46) The "Rolling Process" Approach(02:34) Current Job Market Reality Check(03:28) Value Proposition Design(03:50) Targeted Application Strategy(04:13) Cold Outreach Framework(05:06) Why Cold Outreach Works(06:15) Two Categories of Job Hunting(06:41) Maximizing Your Current Role(07:45) Sponsor: Metaview(09:39) External Network Building(10:41) When You Need a Job Urgently(11:28) Research-Based Approach(12:13) LinkedIn Networking Strategy(12:52) The Best Time to Look for a Job(13:39) Quantifying Business Value(14:30) Cold Outreach Framework(16:00) Referrals and Resource Lists(16:42) The Importance of Preparation(17:11) Current Job Market Assessment(18:07) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Nolan and Kelli talk about Jamie Dimon's leaked critique of remote work while examining the collision between post-pandemic workplace expectations and corporate realities. They explore leadership's critical role in employee engagement, the shifting talent marketplace, and how organizational culture ultimately determines whether flexibility becomes an asset or liability in modern workplaces.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—REFERENCE:Nolan’s post on LinkedIn regarding Jamie Dimon: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/nolan-church_ceos-are-done-with-remote-work-this-is-activity-7296192450493120514-xCMH/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:50) Thoughts on the leaked JP Morgan CEO video on remote work(02:08) On remote work flexibility(02:25) Red Pill Moment?(03:35) Was JP Morgan recording was intentional?(05:34) Talent expectations and companies returning to the office(06:51) Sponsor: Metaview(08:45) Human adaptation to remote work(09:58) The importance of leadership in work engagement(11:07) Missionary versus mercenary motivation(12:45) Thoughts on leadership and market conditions(12:51) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, the CEO of Metaview, and Nolan Church discuss 'agentic AI' in a practical and relevant way for HR pros. They dig into what agentic AI is today vs future expectations and debate current tool limitations. They also share their current AI tool stack, workflows, and their overall approach to viewing AI like a 'junior colleague'.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINSiadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:55) What is Agentic AI?(02:05) AI Decision-Making Autonomy(03:16) Examples of Traditional AI Workflows(04:20) Behind the AI "Magic"(05:06) Experience with ChatGPT Operator(07:13) Context and Expertise Gap(10:35) Early Innings of AI Development(11:39) Improving AI Interactions(13:19) Garbage In, Garbage Out(13:27) Sponsor: Metaview(16:44) The Shift to Agentic AI(18:23) AI Thinking and Collaboration(19:25) Human-Machine Adaptation(20:27) Machines Becoming More Human-Like(22:23) Daily AI Stack(25:08) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Kelli and Nolan talk about candidate feedback during hiring processes and debate whether companies should provide feedback to rejected candidates, especially those who've invested significant time in interviews and assignments. They discuss recruiter bandwidth challenges and liability concerns while advocating for human-centered feedback approaches, especially for onsite candidates, plus advice on requesting feedback gracefully.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected]**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—KEEP UP WITH ANNA, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINKelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:13) The Core Issue: Lack of Feedback After Extensive Interviews(01:00) The Reality of Lean Teams and Bandwidth Constraints(02:15) The Liability Concern: Company Policy Against Sharing Feedback(03:00) A Shift in Perspective: Treating Candidates With Respect(04:06) The Importance of Feedback After On-Site Interviews(04:20) Setting Candidate Expectations: Establishing a "Contract"(05:49) Clarity of Identity: Defining Company Approach to Feedback(06:55) The Long-Term Impact of Thoughtful Candidate Experience(07:13) A Practical Approach: Phone Calls for On-Site Candidates(08:47) Sponsor: Metaview(10:41) Importance of Live Feedback(11:01) Worst-Case Scenarios and the Skill of Giving Feedback(12:41) Recruiters as People People - Navigating Difficult Conversations(13:29) The Need for Recruiters to Develop Hard Conversation Skills(14:00) HR BP skills on the recruiting team(14:44) The Candidate's Perspective: Managing Expectations(15:32) How to Ask for Feedback(16:28) Expanding Your Network and Paying it Forward(18:11) Don't Underestimate How Small the World Is(18:34) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com