Robert McNamara Thought Enough Data Could Win Any War. Instead, It Led America to the Vietnam Quagmire

Robert S. McNamara, who was Secretary of Defense during JFK and LBJ’s administrations, and one of the chief architects of the Vietnam war, made a shocking confession in his 1995 memoir. He said “We were wrong, terribly wrong.” McNamara believed this as early as 1965, that the Vietnam War was unwinnable. Yet, instead of urging U.S. forces to exit, he continued to preside over the war as President Lyndon B. Johnson’s principal wartime advisor. It would be eight more years until the United States officially withdrew from Vietnam. By then, 58,000 Americans and millions of Vietnamese had lost their lives.  Why did McNamara fight so hard to escalate a war that he’d soon realize was beyond winning? Why was he so loyal to LBJ, whom he’d later describe as “crude, mean, vindictive, scheming, and untruthful”? While these questions are personal, the answers are vital to our understanding of the Vietnam War and American foreign policy at large.  Today’s guest is Philip Taubman, author of “McNamara Wat War: A New History.” We look at McNamara’s early life and how he epitomized the 20th-century technocratic 'whiz kid' through his Harvard-honed data analysis skills, which he applied to optimize the firebombing of Tokyo during WWII and later revolutionized Ford Motor Company as president, using statistical efficiency to drive innovation. His technocratic approach shaped U.S. strategy during the Cuban Missile Crisis and Vietnam War, where he relied on data-driven decision-making, though with mixed results, notably escalating Vietnam based on flawed metrics like body counts. We look at how ultimately, McNamara’s war was not only in Vietnam. He was also at war with himself—riven by melancholy, guilt, zealous loyalty, and a profound inability to admit his flawed thinking about Vietnam before it was too late.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The October 7th attacks of Hamas on Israel were an unprecedented, surprise incursion by land, sea, and air that stunned the world and prompted Israel to declare war. The attacks, which included massacres in Israeli communities and a music festival, resulted in the deaths of over 1,200 Israelis and foreign nationals and the capture of some 251 hostages. This deadly terrorist attack was years in the making, but the underlying conflict goes back much further. It starts with the 1948 formation of Israel and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in the wars that began there, an event known to Palestinians as the Nakba (Arabic for "catastrophe"). But the roots of the conflict extend even further—to Ottoman-era conflict between Jewish and Arab residents, the Bar Kokhba revolts in the 2nd century AD, and battles between ancient Israel and its enemies, tracing back all the way to the Iron Age wars between Israelites and the Philistines. The October 7 attack is seen by some as an echo of the cyclical theme of persecution and existential threat against the Jewish people chronicled in the Old Testament, recalling narratives like the Exodus and attacks on ancient Israel. The modern conflict specifically originates in the same coastal region once controlled by the Philistines—an ancient people who lived on the southern coast of Canaan from the 12th century BC until their demise in the 7th century BC. Furthermore, the Bar Kokhba revolt (132–135 AD) was the third and final major Jewish-Roman war, resulting in a devastating defeat for the Jewish population of Judea and leading to the Roman renaming of the province to Syria Palaestina.  Today’s guest is Dinesh D'Souza, the director and executive producer of The Dragon's Prophecy. His documentary utilizes archaeological discoveries, suggesting a historical parallel and continuation of conflict. This shows how current global instability and the conflict over Israel are part of a larger story concerning the destiny of nations. We also look at the intersection of religion, history, and current events to see how the last 3,000 years explain what’s happening today.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Peloponnesian War is considered one of the most famous wars of the ancient world not only because it was a massive and devastating conflict that reshaped the Greek world, but also because its thorough documentation by the historian Thucydides transformed how we understand history and war. On the face of it, the Peloponnesian War, fought over 2000 years ago in a corner of the Mediterranean, shouldn’t have made history. While the war was quite long, lasting 27 years, and oftentimes brutal, the two major parties, Athens and Sparta, were politically irrelevant within a century of the war’s conclusion. Plus the war’s cause is murky and takes a detailed understanding of Greek’s chaotic political history.  And yet, it was this conflict which would be remembered for centuries. As the subject of a detailed history by Thucydides, an Athenian war general and historian, the story of the Peloponnesian War remains essential reading for politicians, historians, and students. Today’s guest is Polly Low, who authored part of a new translation of The History of the Peloponnesian War.  The translation depicts the events of the war between Athens and Sparta that began in 431 BC and would continue until 404, a conflict that embroiled not only mainland Greece but Greek states from the eastern Mediterranean and as far west as Italy and Sicily. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

One of the principal architects of Allied Victory in North Africa during World War Two was French General Louis Dio. His importance in North Africa lies in his role as a key leader of the Free French forces and a trusted subordinate to General Philippe Leclerc. He participated in every battle from Douala to the Fezzan Campaigns in the early 1940s. The most heroic moment of General Louis Dio came during the siege of the Italian fort at Kufra, a key desert outpost in southern Libya, in 1941. During the intense fighting, Dio personally led a daring night grenade assault on an Italian position, an action for which he was seriously injured and later made a Companion of the Liberation by Charles de Gaulle.  Despite all that, he remains largely unrecognized because he was a modest and discreet man who left no memoirs and did not seek glory, preferring to live a simple life after the war. Many books exist in French to recount General Philippe Leclerc’s famous WWII epic, from his 1940 arrival in Cameroon until the final 1945 victory in Germany. However, few are dedicated to his fellow combatants.  In this episode, we  retrace the steps of this epic journey from the Free French soldiers fighting under Dio’s command.  They had started in the forests of Gabon and ended at Hitler’s Eagle Nest.  Particular interest is paid to the role of Dio Tactical Group in the seizure of the town of Alençon in Normandy, the liberation battles of the left bank of Paris, the thrust into Alsace and Lorraine, the conquest of Strasbourg (fulfilling Leclerc’s “Koufra Oath” to see the tricolor fly from the city’s cathedral. Today’s guest is Monique Seefried, author of “Général Louis Dio, the Wartime Epic of One of Free France’s Greatest Soldiers, 1940-1946.” See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Alfred Beach built America’s first operational subway in secret beneath 1860s Manhattan, decades before the city’s official electric subway line in 1904. He designed and commissioned a 300-foot-long, eight-foot-diameter tunnel 20 feet underground, built with a tunneling machine he invented for this purpose. The car moved quietly and silently, pushed by a 50-ton, steam-powered fan nicknamed "the Western Tornado," which pushed and pulled the single subway car through its sealed tube. Beach envisioned a clean, quiet pneumatic railway that would shoot passengers up and down Broadway, revolutionizing urban transit. The entire city would enjoy this steampunk system of transportation. He was the right man for the job. As the editor of Scientific American magazine and the head of the nation’s leading patent agency, Beach was intimately connected with many of the nineteenth century’s most important inventors and inventions. When Thomas Edison invented the phonograph, the first person he showed it to was Alfred Beach. But his dream was derailed by powerful political enemies, most notably Boss Tweed and the corrupt machine of Tammany Hall. Dreams of the project died after an economic crash in 1873. Today’s guest is Matthew Algeo, author of New York’s Secret Subway: The Underground Genius of Alfred Beach and the Origins of Mass Transit. We look at a pivotal moment in the origin story of mass transportation in America, and themes that resonate strongly today: infrastructure gridlock, public-private conflict, and the long-standing resistance to bold transit reform.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

There’s a divide between Scotland and Ireland as fierce as the Protestant/Catholic split during the Thirty Years’ War or the battles between Sunnis and Shias in the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s. It’s the debate over who invented whisky. Both Ireland and Scotland claim to have originated the spirit. Ireland cites its early monastic traditions and the term "uisce beatha" (Gaelic for "water of life") as evidence of whisky production dating back to the 12th century. Scotland, however, argues that its distillation practices, documented in the 1494 Exchequer Rolls mentioning "aqua vitae," predate Ireland’s clear records and point to their refined techniques in the Highlands. Irish advocates emphasize that their missionaries spread distillation knowledge to Scotland, while Scots counter that their innovations in barrel aging and malting set whisky apart as a distinctly Scottish craft. The argument often hinges on differing definitions of what constitutes "whisky," with no definitive proof resolving the dispute, leaving both sides to proudly defend their heritage. Whisky stands out from other alcohols, like beer, due to its intricate production process, which relies on advanced distillation technology to create a high-potency spirit from fermented grains. The use of oak barrels for aging imparts complex flavors, such as vanilla, caramel, and smoky notes, giving whisky its distinctive depth and character. Today’s guest is Noah Rothbaum, a world-renowned drinks expert and author of The Whiskey Bible: A Complete Guide to the World’s Greatest Spirit. He reveals the history and lore of whisky. We discuss the possibly 5,000-year history of distillation and whisky, how phylloxera wiped out Europe’s vineyards and decimated the market for wine in the early 19th century but kickstarted interest in spirits, how Americans created a separate and distinct spirit, and the future of the drink.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The cavalry 'wings' that probed ahead of the Roman Army played a key role in its campaigns of conquest, masking its marching flanks and seeking to encircle enemies in battle. However, at the very beginning of Rome’s history, it didn’t even have a cavalry, and relied on Greek-style phalanx formations instead. It began as a small cavalry arm provided by the citizen nobility, but this had proved inadequate before the end of the Republic, and Julius Caesar's cavalry was largely made up of hired allies. During the Early Principate, the armies under Augustus continued in this vein, incorporating large numbers of non-citizen auxiliary cavalry units. The provinces came under increasing attack throughout and following the chaotic mid-3rd century, and Rome took lessons from its 'barbarian' enemies in how to improve its military mobility, adopting both new, heavily armored shock cavalry and horse-archers, and vitally shaping the tactics employed during the Dominate. Today’s guest is Mike Bishop, author of “Roman Cavalry Tactics.” We discuss how the cavalry grew to become the dominant force in Roman field armies by the twilight of the Western Empire. Eight newly commissioned artwork plates and a rich selection of artefact photographs and archaeological sources provide vivid detail and insight, helping to bring to the life the evolving tactics, clothing and weaponry of Rome's cavalry from the 2nd century BC through to the 5th century AD.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Modern France and Britain were forged in the fires of the Hundred Years War, a century-long conflict that produced deadly English longbowmen, Joan of Arc’s heavenly visions, and a massive death toll from Scotland to the Low Countries. The traditional beginning and end of the Hundred Years' War are conventionally marked by the start of open conflict in 1337, when Edward III of England laid claim to the French throne – and France invalidated English claims to continental lands -- and its conclusion with the French victory at the Battle of Castillon in 1453, the fall of the last English holdings on the continent. But Michael Livingston, today’s guest and author of “Blood Crowns: A New History of the Hundred Years War” argues redefines the scope and length of the Hundred Years War, arguing it really lasted from 1292–1492. And it didn’t just engulf England and France, but into regions like the Low Countries, Italy, and the Holy Roman Empire. It spread to the whole European continent and, eventually, the globe as the war's end spurred European powers to pursue their imperial ambitions abroad. The Hundred Years' War was also a period of significant military innovation, particularly with the English longbow and the introduction of gunpowder Livingston revises our understanding of the Two Hundred Years War as one that set the stage for a new global imperial order with ripple effects across the centuries.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

America saw a significant reverse-migration in the 1800s and 1900s, with 20–50% of Italian immigrants returning to Italy as ritornati and tens of thousands of Americans, including ideologues and workers, moving to Germany, Italy, and the USSR in the 1930s seeking political or economic opportunities. Some of these American expatriates were drawn to revolutionary movements in Europe and Asia, blending idealism with political activism Today’s guest is David Mayers, author of Seekers and Partisans: Americans Abroad in the Crisis Years, 1935–1941. We discuss alienated Americans who went abroad during the interwar years in search of a new home and/or to further deeply personal causes. They include John Robinson, a black aviator who in 1935 led the Ethiopian air force against the Italian invasion; Agnes Smedley, who joined the Chinese communists during the Sino-Japanese war; Helen Keller, an advocate of the seeing- and hearing-impaired; Ezra Pound, a lauded poet who championed Mussolini; and Anna Louise Strong, drawn to Stalin's USSR.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

12,000 years ago, human history changed forever when the egalitarian groups of hunter-gathering humans began to settle down and organize themselves into hierarchies. The few dominated the many, seizing control through violence. What emerged were “Goliaths”: large societies built on a collection of hierarchies that are also terrifyingly fragile, collapsing time after time across the world. Today, we live in a single, global Goliath—one that is precariously interdependent—under threat from nuclear war, climate change, and the existential risks of AI. The next collapse may be our last. Today’s guest is Luke Kemp, author of Goliath’s Curse. He conducts a historical autopsy on our species, from the earliest cities to the collapse of modern states like Somalia. Drawing on historical databases and the latest discoveries in archaeology and anthropology, he uncovers groundbreaking revelations:  More democratic societies tend to be more resilient. A modern collapse is likely to be global, long-lasting, and more dire than ever before  Collapse may be invisible until after it has occurred. It’s possible we’re living through one now. Collapse has often had a more positive outcome for the general population than for the 1%. All Goliaths contain the seeds of their own demise.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.