Engineering State v. Lawyerly Society

This week on Decouple, I sit down with Dan Wang, a research fellow at Stanford’s Hoover History Lab and author of "Breakneck: China’s Quest to Engineer the Future." We trace how China became an “engineering state” while America turned into a “lawyerly society,” and what that means for infrastructure, energy, industry, birthrates, social security, and human lives. From Guizhou’s skyways to Jane Jacobs’ shadow over North American cities, Wang shows the upside of abundant state capacity and the dark side of excessive control.Buy Breakneck: https://danwang.co/breakneck/

This week, we zoom out to the broader intellectual themes that shaped Decouple’s origins five years ago. I’m joined by Jesse Ausubel, a visionary in sustainability and biodiversity research and the Director of the Program for the Human Environment at The Rockefeller University in New York City. In his long career, Ausubel pioneered the modern study of decarbonization and dematerialization in the late 1980s and early 1990s. He helped organize the first UN World Climate Conference in 1979 and spent the 1980s at the National Academies formulating U.S. and global climate research programs. In parallel, he has led major biodiversity initiatives including the decade-long Census of Marine Life, the DNA Barcode of Life project, and continues surveying ocean biodiversity using environmental DNA.In this conversation, Ausubel shows how the simple framework of logistic S-curves can illuminate fundamental trends across complex systems, including energy systems. Through this lens, we discuss the “environmental trifecta” of land-sparing, decarbonization, and dematerialization, and we explore whether apparent counter-trends challenge Ausubel’s framework. Suffusing the interview is Ausubel’s belief in the wisdom of long-term thinking and objectivity: simple, insightful frameworks are a starting point for admitting much-needed complexity into our worldviews. Join us in this rare examination of the mental models that claim to predict our environmental future.

Process heat accounts for two-thirds of industrial emissions. Yet talk of decarbonization often misses the engineering realities that separate viable solutions from expensive dead ends. To understand process heat and the technologies capable of providing it, I’m joined by returning guest Jesse Huebsch, a process engineer specializing in chemical plants. Our conversation ranges from steel and cement to plastics and ammonia, examining which processes can be electrified, where steam dominates, and why the most advanced high-temperature reactor designs may not be the answer.

Nuclear has entered its meme stock moment. Last week, Oklo hit a market capitalization of $20.7 billion—more than established nuclear giants BWXT, Curtiss-Wright, and AtkinsRéalis—despite having zero revenue, no NRC design certification, and a rejected license application. In my conversation with returning guest Michael Seely, aka AtomicBlender, we examine this preposterous valuation built on glossy renderings rather than demonstrated readiness. If Rosatom, with 70 years of R&D and thousands of specialized engineers, struggles to make sodium fast reactors commercially viable, how will a Silicon Valley startup accomplish it in two years? When this bubble bursts, the entire nuclear renaissance may pay the price.

This week, award-winning science writer Peter Brannen returns to Decouple to explore the 4.5 billion-year story of carbon dioxide on Earth. Grounding our discussion is his new book, The Story of CO2 Is The Story of Everything. From the alien world of the Hadean eon to humanity's emergence as the "pyromaniac ape," Brannen reveals how this trace gas has shaped every aspect of our planet's evolution, through Snowball Earth, mass extinctions, and the rise of complex life, culminating in humanity's unprecedented ability to burn fossil fuels.We talk about:The origin of life and early carbon chemistryWhy Earth needed fossil fuels to create an oxygen-rich atmosphereThe Great Unconformity and Snowball Earth's role in building the rock record The Carboniferous period as the age of giant insects and coal formationThe Permian mass extinction and Siberian Traps volcanismThe Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum as a climate analogThe ice age world that shaped human evolution and the rise of agricultureHow megafauna extinctions marked the beginning of human planetary impact

Professor Alex Wellerstein returns from the set of WIRED (watch his excellent appearance here) to help me understand the origins of Middle Eastern nuclear programs and where they stand today. From France’s covert assistance to Israel’s bomb program in the 1960s to the mysterious Vela incident over the South Atlantic, Wellerstein shows how nuclear weapons spread through unofficial networks of scientists, spies, and opportunistic allies. We explore Iran’s strategic nuclear hedging, Israel’s policy of deliberate ambiguity, and the disturbing possibility that recent attacks on Iran’s uranium enrichment facilities may force the country’s hand toward weaponization.

This week, we talk about rare earth metals. What are they, where do they come from, and how are they redefining global power? I’m joined by David Abraham, a natural resource strategist who saw the future of rare earths in 2010 while working in Japan's Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. When China cut off rare earth exports over a territorial dispute, Abraham realized these obscure elements, sprinkled into our steel, the magnets in our speakers, the phosphors in our screens, held more geopolitical power than oil ever could. The warnings in his book, “The Elements of Power,” now written 10 years ago, feel like reading a prophecy. Half the periodic table now flows through your iPhone, and China controls 90% of the world's refining capacity for these critical materials. As trade wars escalate and great power competition returns, the country that controls rare earths may control the Earth itself.

This week, we talk about the rise of the global battery industry: its history, key players, raw material struggles, and how China came to dominate it. To do so, I’m joined by Henry Sanderson, author of "Volt Rush: The Winners and Losers in the Race to Go Green." We trace the story of electrification from Volta’s early experiments to the supply chains that now shape global power. Sanderson brings decades of reporting to a narrative that reveals China’s industrial strategy, the entrepreneurs behind battery giants, and the troubling realities of mining cobalt, nickel, and lithium. Together, we examine how technology, geopolitics, massive wealth, and environmental trade-offs define the future of clean energy.

This week, we talk about Russian nuclear exports. Michael Seely, host of AtomicBlender, joins me to discuss the rise of Rosatom: Russia’s nuclear energy behemoth that now builds nearly half of the world’s new reactors. We trace its formation after the Soviet collapse, its grip on the nuclear fuel market, and its unmatched “turnkey” model for newcomer nations. Rosatom’s nuclear exports are more than just a commercial endeavour—they can reshape global influence for decades.Michael's videos on Canada, Russia, and Ukraine.

This week, we travel to the edge of the map with Aleksandr Surtcev, an engineer who has crewed Russian nuclear icebreakers along the Northern Sea Route. We explore how Russia’s Arctic fleet keeps this strategic corridor open, why floating nuclear plants are powering remote communities and mines, and what life looks like in a place where polar bears trail ships for fish and resupply markets pop up on the ice. Beneath the stories lies a deeper discussion of geopolitics, engineering, and the hard logistics of operating in one of the most unforgiving regions on Earth.