The Race Is On To Control AI | Episode 274: Afonso Salema & Sam Winter-Levy

More than 80% of the world’s advanced AI compute is concentrated in the US and China. For Europe and other middle powers, the question may no longer be how to win the AI race, but how to avoid becoming dangerously dependent on those that do.This week on Cleaning Up, James Cameron, Chair of Cleaning Up’s Editorial Council, takes over as guest host. He speaks with Sam Winter-Levy, Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and Afonso Salema, CEO of Exus Digital and founder of TerraByte Data Centers, about how compute is becoming a strategic resource.They explore how access to power and the grid is shaping where billions of dollars of AI infrastructure gets built, and how data centres could become a source of geopolitical leverage. They also discuss the security and public backlash facing this critical infrastructure, and whether AI’s enormous appetite for electricity could ultimately accelerate the clean energy transition.Topics covered in this episode:Compute as a strategic resourceThe US-China race for AIWhy Europe is falling behindAI’s rapidly growing electricity demandWhere the world builds data centresProtecting data centres from attackWeaponising chips and AI accessThe political backlash against data centresCan AI accelerate clean energy?Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.Links:Afonso Salema’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/afonso-salema-336320/Sam Winter-Levy’s bio: https://carnegieendowment.org/people/sam-winter-levyJames Cameron’s bio: https://www.james-cameron.co.uk/bioCleaning Up 235. Inside Start Campus, Europe’s largest data centre: https://youtu.be/juAyLAUmU3wJames Cameron on Cleaning Up in 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn7GKiW5E4kJames Cameron on Cleaning Up in 2025: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPPjAbSxl5cSubscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/The Stanford 2026 AI index: https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-reportEdelman Trust in AI poll: https://www.edelman.com/trust/2025/trust-barometer/report-tech-sectorAcronyms:AWS: Amazon Web ServicesNIMBY: "Not In My Back Yard"Chapters:00:00 Introduction02:02 AI, security, geopolitics05:01 Compute as power11:34 The global AI race14:07 Building data centres18:02 Defending critical infrastructure23:53 Who pays for security?29:24 Designing for resilience32:48 Weaponising AI access40:02 Data centre backlash49:56 The balance of power54:09 Can Europe catch up?59:43 AI and clean energy01:04:01 Outro

Can Mexico build an electric car for $8,000, and use it to create an entirely new domestic industry? This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington visits Mexico City to sit down with Roberto Capuano, director of the Olinia Project, and discuss the state-backed effort to develop a new generation of affordable electric mini-vehicles. Roberto explains why Olinia is designing small EVs specifically around the needs of Mexican cities, how partnerships with Chinese suppliers could accelerate technology transfer, and why price rather than subsidies could ultimately drive EV adoption. They also discuss Mexico's ambitions beyond its domestic market, with potential demand across Latin America and even East Africa.Topics discussed in this episode:Why Mexico wants its own carmakerElectrifying Mexico City's public transportThe rise of electric mini-carsBuilding an $8,000 Mexican EVWhy Olinia is partnering with ChinaThe state's role in carmakingBuilding a Latin American EV marketCan Olinia deliver by 2027? Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.Links:Roberto Capuano’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roberto-capuano/ Olinia Project: https://www.olinia.auto/ Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ OEM: Original Equipment ManufacturerBRT: Bus Rapid Transit R&D: Research & DevelopmentICE: Internal Combustion Engine Chapters:00:00 Intro 02:15 Electrifying Mexico City 10:33 Olinia's Origins 11:58 Mini Electric Cars 18:48 Made in Mexico 21:25 State-Led Industry 30:33 Chinese Supply Chains 36:31 The $8,000 EV 40:01 Charging Infrastructure 42:54 Global Ambitions 45:43 Scaling Olinia 48:40 Software and Autonomy 50:01 Political Longevity 55:31 Outro  

Can the Philippines become a testbed for Southeast Asia’s clean-tech future?  Kicking off Season 19 of Cleaning Up, guest host Marie Cheong meets Jaime Z. Urquijo, Urban Estates Group Head at Ayala Land, one of the Philippines is largest real estate and development companies.  Ayala Land is a subsidiary of the Ayala Corporation, which has been part of the Philippines' economic story for almost 200 years, and ACEN, its energy platform, has gone from a standing start in 2011 to more than 7GW of renewable capacity across Asia-Pacific.  Marie and Jaime explore how the Philippines can build cleaner energy, transport and cities from the start while its economy and population continue to grow. They discuss replacing coal with renewables, retiring coal plants early, building resilient cities and making growth less carbon-intensive. From batteries and rooftop solar to green steel and electric buses, they ask what it will take for the Philippines to leapfrog to a cleaner, more resilient economy.  Topics covered in this conversation: The Philippines' clean-energy challenge Can growth be decoupled from emissions? Making corporate sustainability profitable ACEN's renewable-energy transformation Southeast Asia's renewable-energy gold rush Can coal plants retire early? Building resilient cities for climate Electric buses and better transport Green steel and cleaner construction Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Jaime Urquijo’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaime-urquijo-96526799/ Ayala Corporation: https://ayala.com/ Ayala Land: https://ayalaland.com/  ACEN: https://www.acenrenewables.com/about-us/ Monsoon Wind Project: https://www.monsoonwindasia.com/  Marie's past appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/RE2ZeGd8aaI Acronyms: WBCSD: World Business Council for Sustainable Development BPO: Business Process Outsourcing SBTI: Science Based Targets Initiative. MDC: Makati Development Corporation.  EDC: The Energy Development Corporation  EPIRA: Electric Power Industry Reform Act FIT: Feed-In Tariff ETM: Energy Transition Mechanism BRT: Bus Rapid Transit System ICE: Internal Combustion Engine LGU: Local Government Unit  Chapters: 00:00: Intro 04:34: The Philippines 07:49: Ayala's history 10:42: Sustainability strategy 16:16: Net zero 27:32: Energy liberalisation 34:09: Regional challenges 36:27: Coal retirement 42:07: Resilient cities 47:45: Green steel 52:14: Green construction 54:55: Innovation tailwinds 58:27: Energy decentralisation 59:07: Future growth 01:01:43: Outro

Australia has become a laboratory for the energy transition, what can the rest of the world learn? After two weeks travelling across Australia and meeting the leaders shaping its energy transition, Michael Liebreich got a close up view of the country’s transformation.  For the final episode of Cleaning Up’s Deep Dive Australia series, the host becomes the guest as Anna Freeman of the Energy Efficiency Council turns the tables and puts Michael in the hot seat to ask him what he has learned. Michael divides his takeaways into the good, the less good and the “downright ugly”, from Australia’s extraordinary rooftop solar and battery uptake to its struggles with wind, transmission and diesel. He also asks whether the country really can become a clean energy superpower, and what its successes and failures can teach the rest of the world. Topics covered in this episode: Australia’s rooftop solar advantage Why batteries are beating gas The missing middle of electrification Can transmission keep up? Australia’s expensive wind problem The China challenge Breaking the diesel addiction Why EVs may be finally taking off Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Australia Deep Dive Episodes:  Darren Miller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBhkBTZ9lSI&t=2s Chris Bowen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYtapcSdZOo&t=132s Marc England https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tKVSJcS_SI&t=2s Lily D'Ambrosio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVGL9vVTdeY Ross Garnaut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmcm2M5eRxk&t=35s David Pocock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgbq5r3XTJY Paul Simshauser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZKxb2TnD04 Martin Green: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgqXnnvlMFg Links: Anna Freeman’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annafreeman1/ The Energy Efficiency Council: https://eec.org.au Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Stats on Seaborne Trade of diesel: https://ieefa.org/resources/oil-shocks-expose-limits-monetary-policy John Pettigrew on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Lg1A958aA&t=5s Tim Meyerjürgens on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQgUuJ-dx78&t=16s Leo Birnbaum on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa-DHuPNEDg Andrew Forrest on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYQmEipY5Wc Acronyms: IRENA: International Renewable Energy Agency EMA: Energy Market Operator DNSP: Distribution Network Service Provider REZ: Renewable Energy Zones AEMO: Australian Energy Market Operator Chapters: 00:00: Intro 05:45: Solar Adoption 10:25: Big Batteries 13:41: The Missing Middle 19:26: Transmission Grids 21:35: Australia’s Wind Problem 32:43: China’s Superpower 40:53: The Diesel Addiction 45:24: EV Adoption 52:58 Lack Of Transparency 56:19 Michael’s Highlights 01:14:00: Outro

Around the world, factories making food, drink, pharmaceuticals and other everyday products rely on steam, often produced by fossil-fuel boilers. James Macnaghten, founder and CEO of Caldera, is betting that thermal batteries can provide a cheaper and more flexible alternative that stores electricity as heat, and delivers steam on demand. This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington visits Caldera's factory to see how it makes its heat batteries: combining recycled aluminium and iron ore pellets to create a long-lasting, efficient heat store. The technology is designed for industrial processes up to 200°C, which James sees as a major opportunity for electrification. They discuss how thermal storage can help factories manage peaks in demand, use electricity when it is cheap or abundant, and reduce pressure on congested grids. They also explore Caldera's plans to scale, its journey from domestic heating to industry, and why James believes a more pragmatic approach to electrification is needed. Topics discussed in this episode: The hidden opportunity in industrial heat How Caldera's heat batteries work Why steam still matters Heat pumps and thermal storage Managing industrial demand spikes Turning surplus power into heat Scaling a UK climate-tech company The case for pragmatic electrification Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: James Macnaghten’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-macnaghten Caldera: https://www.caldera.co.uk/ Professor Ning Li on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCUASv01bVY Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ JVs - Joint Ventures IP - Intellectual Property Chapters: 00:00: Intro 01:53: About Caldera Batteries 03:42: Heat Storage 09:47: Caldera Factory Tour 14:40: Funding Caldera 17:44: Scaling Up 25:37: Thermal Storage 29:02: Energy Price Shocks 30:27: Flexible Demand 35:22: UK Success Story 37:32: Outro

Solar was once dismissed as a marginal technology. Today, it is transforming the global energy system, and few people have done more to make that possible than Professor Martin Green. Innovations developed by Green and his research group can now be found in over 90% of all the solar panels in use today One of the pioneers of modern solar power, Green’s research has helped make solar panels dramatically more efficient and cheaper to produce. He joins Michael Liebreich to discuss how he got into solar, the breakthroughs that helped drive its extraordinary rise, and the remarkable story of how research carried out at an Australian university helped create the global solar manufacturing industry. They also look at where solar goes next, and whether the next generation of technology can make it even more powerful.  Topics discussed in this episode The breakthroughs that changed solar Understanding solar cells and efficiency Racing NASA to new efficiency records Pioneering PERC and TOPCon technology How solar technology reached the market Suntech and the rise of Chinese solar The future of solar and batteries Which solar technology will dominate? Leadership Circle Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links Martin Green bio: https://www.unsw.edu.au/staff/martin-green Australian Centre for Advanced Photovoltaics: https://www.acap.org.au/ Professor Stephen Chu on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPmgA5cjhfk NREL National Renewable Energy Lab chart: https://www.nlr.gov/pv/interactive-cell-efficiency Subscribe to our newsletter: cleaninguppod.substack.com Acronyms: PERC - Passivated Emitter and Rear Cell TOPCon - Tunnel Oxide Passivated Contact NREL - National Renewable Energy Laboratory Chapters 00:00 - Intro 02:14 - UNSW Research Group  10:25 - Innovations in Solar  13:12 - PERC & TOPCon Explained 19:26 - Efficiency Records & NREL Chart  23:48 - Birth of Chinese Solar  30:21 - The First Solar Billionaire 36:23 - Perovskite and Tandem Cells  48:12 - Australia's Missed Chance  50:13 - Outro

Will AI break the grid? As hyperscalers race to build ever-larger data centres, electricity demand is soaring. The question is no longer whether power demand will grow, but by how much, how quickly, and whether the grid can deliver. This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Arshad Mansoor, President & CEO of the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), one of the world's leading energy research organisations. Together, they tackle one of the biggest questions facing the global energy system: how much electricity will AI really need, and can our power systems keep up? They debate the scale of AI-driven demand growth, whether the extraordinary investment by hyperscalers is justified, and how greater flexibility could allow data centres to connect faster without overwhelming the grid. They also discuss the growing public backlash against AI infrastructure, why winning local support may become the industry's biggest challenge, and whether nuclear power is truly the "get out of jail free card" many believe it to be or simply one part of a much bigger solution. Topics included in this episode: The race to power AI data centres Hyperscalers' trillion-dollar AI investment Can electricity grids keep pace with AI's rapid growth? Gigawatt demand forecasts Making data centres more flexible Public acceptance and the growing backlash against AI Nuclear power's role in the AI era What governments, utilities and investors should do next Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Arshad Mansoor’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arshad-mansoor-a2090b165/ EPRI, Electric Power Research Institute: https://www.epri.com/ Jigar Shah on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOaF-qQ_TU Varun Sivaram & Steve Smith on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kSrgRZUCwE Rob Dunn on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w&t=2s Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Papers referenced: DC Flex Mosaic: https://dcflex.epri.com/flex-mosaic/open-letter Win Win Watts: https://winwin.epri.com/en/introduction.html Make Electricity Cheap Again: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/make-electricity-cheap-again Acronyms: GPU: Graphics Processing Unit IPO: Initial Public Offering NESO: National Energy Systems Operator HVO: Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil SMR: Small Modular Reactor Chapters: 00:00 Intro 02:29 About EPRI 06:08 AI Power Demand 10:45 Gigawatt Debate 17:19 Hyperscaler Risk 26:15 Compute In Households 31:24 24/7 Data Power 38:28 Public Acceptance 41:39 Fear Of AI 49:39 A Nuclear Solution? 58:38 24/7 Reliable Power 01:08:00 Final Thoughts

Australia has one of the world's fastest-moving electricity systems. It leads the world in rooftop solar, has deployed grid-scale batteries at extraordinary speed, and is now starting to replace its ageing coal fleet with cleaner sources of energy. But as renewable costs rise and electricity demand grows, can the transition remain affordable while maintaining a reliable power system? This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Paul Simshauser, CEO of Iberdrola Australia, and one of Australia's leading energy economists. Drawing on decades of experience across electricity markets, networks and policy, Paul explains what makes Australia's power system unique, and what the rest of the world can learn from it. They discuss why rooftop solar has become so successful in Australia, how batteries are transforming electricity markets, and how the country's energy-only market encourages investment. They also explore the economics of replacing ageing coal plants, the costs of new renewable generation, the role of electricity pricing and demand tariffs, and what will be needed to build a resilient, affordable power system as Australia moves towards net zero. Topics discussed in this episode: The rooftop solar revolution How batteries are reshaping the grid Why solar is cheaper in Australia than elsewhere The challenges of retiring coal Whether renewables can stay affordable Building a resilient power system Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Paul Simshauser’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-simshauser-00106713/ Iberdrola Australia: https://www.iberdrola.com.au Link to Paul’s articles: https://experts.griffith.edu.au/18942-paul-simshauser/publications Malcolm Turnbull on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9CUGRHCswU&t=5s Marc England on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tKVSJcS_SI Darren Miller on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBhkBTZ9lSI&t=2s Tony Abbott on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_39HmAgq9RY&t=1s Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms: STC: Small-scale Technology Certificates CFD: Contract For Difference PPAs: Power Purchase Agreements IBGYBG: “I'll be gone, you'll be gone.” OEM: Original Equipment Manufacturer AEMO: Australian Electricity Market Operator LNG: Liquefied Natural Gas Chapters: 00:00 - Intro 02:28 - Paul's Background 04:07 - Iberdrola Australia 06:42 - Australia's Power System 09:15 - Battery Revolution 12:36 - Energy-Only Market 14:35 - Why Solar Succeeds 18:21 - Commercial Solar Challenge 24:30 - Ageing Coal Fleet 28:49 - Carbon Markets & Pricing 35:00 - Renewable Costs 39:18 - Future Demand 42:45 - Grid Resilience 48:00 - Outro

Microbes rarely feature in discussions about climate change, yet they play a central role in regulating greenhouse gases through the Earth's carbon, methane and nitrogen cycles. As the climate changes, understanding these natural processes is becoming increasingly important to develop new approaches to clean energy, agriculture and emissions reduction. This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington speaks with Professor Emeritus David Kirchman of the University of Delaware, one of the world's leading microbial ecologists and author of 'Microbes: the Unseen Agents of Climate Change.' They explore how microbes drive the carbon, methane and nitrogen cycles, how climate change is reshaping ecosystems from permafrost to coral reefs, and how microbial science could help tackle the climate crisis, from microbial fuel cells and lower-emissions agriculture to biofuels, methane reduction and even emerging forms of carbon removal and geoengineering Topics covered in this episode: The microbes shaping Earth's climate Ocean carbon cycle Methane-eating microbes Arctic warming impacts Coral reefs and climate resilience Low-carbon agriculture Microbes powering climate solutions Climate interventions Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: David Kirchman’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-kirchman-5925b331/ David’s book: Microbes, the Unseen Agents of Climate Change: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Microbes-Unseen-Agents-Climate-Change/dp/019768856X Merlin Sheldrake on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC-9ulSTnB4 Sea ice melting effect on microbes article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-77821-9 Background on James Lovelock's Gaia Hypothesis: https://courses.seas.harvard.edu/climate/eli/Courses/EPS281r/Sources/Gaia/Gaia-hypothesis-wikipedia.pdf DMS: Dimethyl Sulphide Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Chapters: 00:00 - Intro 00:45 - About David Kirchman 05:50 - What Are Microbes? 15:29 - Climate Cycles & Carbon 23:04 - Methane Microbes 29:01 - Climate Change 34:41 - Coral Reefs 41:02 - Microbe Climate Solutions 50:10 - Climate Engineering 01:00:28 - Outro

David Pocock is one of Australia's most influential politicians, working as the Senator of the Australian Capital Territory. He brings a distinctive perspective to some of the country's biggest debates, from climate policy and energy security to democratic reform and the future of work. A former captain of the Australian rugby team, David entered politics after years of speaking out on issues including climate change, equality and environmental protection. Four years into his Senate career, he joins Michael Liebreich to explain how independent politics works in practice, what he's hearing from voters across Australia, his campaign to tax natural gas exports, and why he believes the country's clean energy transition must deliver lower household bills as well as lower emissions. The conversation explores Australia's world-leading rooftop solar uptake, the barriers slowing electric vehicle adoption, and why David believes Australians deserve a greater return from the country's gas exports. They also look ahead to the rise of AI and data centres, asking whether governments are paying enough attention to the implications for jobs, tax revenues and energy demand. Topics covered in this week's episode: David’s journey from rugby player to Senator Australian voters' priorities Lowering household energy bills Australia's clean energy successes Why EV adoption lags Taxing Australia's gas exports Data centres and energy demand AI concerns and the future of work Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: David Pocock’s bio: https://www.davidpocock.com.au/about David Pocock “Chains himself to digger” news article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/30272670 Aksel Lund Svindal on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRc1VCBnVgI Alex Honnold on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwmQf0mhHkE Prince Albert of Monaco on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-eYHKpDBYU Håkan Agnevall (Wärtsilä) on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUYjGT55g5A Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms: C&I: Commercial and Industrial ICE: Internal Combustion Engine ACT: Australian Capital Territory Chapters: 00:00 Intro 01:48 From Rugby to Politics 11:46 Getting Arrested For Activism 16:35 What Voters Want 20:34 Rising Voter Frustration 26:16 Australia's Energy Report 28:57 Why EVs Lag Behind 31:19 Taxing Gas Exports 36:09 Data Centre Dilemma 39:46 AI vs Human Jobs 44:47 Delivering Real Results 49:44 Outro