Can We Stop Data Centres Breaking The Grid? Ep249: Varun Sivaram & Steve Smith

This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with Varun Sivaram and Steve Smith to explore one of the most urgent, and overlooked, challenges of the AI revolution: how to power it without breaking the grid. As AI demand explodes, hyperscale data centres are emerging as massive, inflexible loads, rivaling entire cities. But do they have to be a burden on the grid? This conversation dives into a groundbreaking trial led by Emerald AI in partnership with National Grid and NVIDIA—demonstrating that data centres can dynamically adjust their power consumption in real time using software. Key insights include: How AI data centres could reduce grid stress instead of increasing it The concept of “flexible demand” and why it’s a game changer for AI data centres Real-world trial results Why “speed to power” matters more than cheap electricity in the AI race How software, not infrastructure, could help unlock billions in grid capacity The hidden flexibility inside AI workloads (and why not all compute is equal) From kettle spikes during football matches to lightning strikes on the grid, this episode reveals how intelligent systems can respond in seconds, turning a looming energy crisis into a massive opportunity. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Euroelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. Read more:  The Emerald AI/National Grid white paper: https://www.ngpartners.com/stories/emerald-ai-whitepaper The $60 Billion Plan For Europe’s Largest AI Data Centre | Ep235: Robert Dunn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w

What happens when millions of electric cars become part of the energy grid? And could the key to cheaper, cleaner power already be sitting in your driveway? And why are so many automakers pushing back against EV targets?  This week on Cleaning Up, host Bryony Worthington speaks with Fiona Howarth, founder of Octopus Electric Vehicles, about the rapid transformation of the global car industry and the powerful role electric vehicles are beginning to play in the energy system. From her early fascination with clean energy to building one of the UK’s most innovative EV businesses within Octopus Energy, Fiona shares the inside story of how electric mobility moved from niche curiosity to mainstream disruption. She explains why falling battery costs, bold policy like the UK’s ZEV mandate, and fierce competition from Chinese manufacturers such as BYD are accelerating the transition faster than many expected.  The conversation explores how EVs are evolving beyond transportation. With vehicle-to-grid technology, cars could become distributed batteries: storing renewable power, stabilising the grid, and even providing drivers with free electricity for their journeys. It’s a vision that could reshape both the energy market and the economics of driving.  But as some companies race ahead, some traditional automakers are pushing back, asking for slower timelines. Fiona argues that the real risk isn’t moving too fast, it’s backing the wrong players in a historic technological shift.  Leadership Circle:  Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.  Links and more:  Octopus EVs website: https://octopusev.com/  Cleaning Up interview with Greg Jackson, CEO of Octopus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl-cRh35Hm4  Earth Set Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@TheEarthSetPodcast

Bryony Worthington and Michael Liebreich give their analysis of the impact of the conflict in Iran on global energy markets. How will it impact the Middle East, Europe, Asia, the US, and will it force countries back to coal, or accelerate the clean energy transition?  This episode was recorded Thursday March 5.  Leadership Circle:  Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.

How can we build out clean energy and infrastructure faster? Is Europe engineering its way to resilience, or pricing itself out of competitiveness? And can we redesign the entire system fast enough to keep up with AI, electrification and rising demand?  This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Hilde Tonne, Chair of Arup and former CEO of Statnett, to explore the hard realities behind the energy transition. From offshore wind and nuclear to grid bottlenecks and data centre demand, Hilde brings a uniquely systems-level perspective shaped by decades leading infrastructure transformation across telecoms, energy and engineering.  They dive into:  Why grid investment, not generation, may be Europe’s biggest constraint  Whether hyperscaler AI companies should foot the bill for massive grid upgrades  The hidden bottlenecks in regulation, permitting and procurement • How ‘total design’ thinking can cut carbon by 40% before construction even begins  Whether electrification makes Europe more resilient, or more exposed  Hilde argues that this transition is no longer just about climate. It’s about security, competitiveness, affordability and economic growth. But achieving it will require rethinking regulation, redesigning infrastructure and the bureaucracy around it, and aligning public and private capital at unprecedented scale.  Leadership Circle:  Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.  Links and more:  Arup’s website: https://www.arup.com/  Inside Europe’s Largest Data Centre: https://youtu.be/juAyLAUmU3w

This week on Cleaning Up, host Bryony Worthington sits down with investor and energy strategist Laurent Segalen, co-host of the Redefining Energy podcast, for a sweeping conversation that spans carbon markets, uranium trading, battery innovation, and Laurent’s bold plan to connect Canada and Europe with a 5,000km subsea electricity cable. Laurent shares the personal moments that shaped his obsession with energy security, from witnessing Cold War division in Germany to cleaning an oil spill off the beaches of Brittany, and how those experiences led him to the heart of Europe’s carbon trading system and into high-stakes commodity markets. Along the way, Laurent recounts: How he became becoming one of the most profitable uranium traders on the market The financial mechanics behind interconnectors, and why east-west cables make money Why sodium batteries could reshape grid storage His experience designing carbon markets, and whether they are working or not. At the centre of the discussion is NATO-L (North Atlantic Transmission One Link): an audacious proposal to link Canadian hydro and wind to European markets through ultra-high-voltage subsea cables. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Links and more: NATO-L website: https://nato-l.com/ Redefining Energy Podcast: https://www.redefining-energy.com/ Ep92: Simon Morrish "650 Leagues of HVDC Under the Sea": https://youtu.be/m6KIMswZkWA

This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Miguel Stilwell d’Andrade, CEO of EDP, one of the world’s leading clean energy companies.From the front lines of the energy transition, Miguel explains why electricity demand in the United States is exploding, driven by AI, data centres, and re-industrialisation, and why this could make renewables one of the most attractive investments of the decade. He also shares how EDP transformed itself from an 80% coal-based utility into a company generating over 90% of its electricity from renewables.But the transition hasn’t been entirely smooth. Miguel recounts the dramatic moment when Spain’s grid collapsed, taking Portugal down with it, and what it taught him about resilience, grid stability, and the hidden challenges of running a modern clean power system.They also dive into:Why soaring power demand is changing energy economicsThe real story behind renewable costs and rising electricity pricesThe link between European competitiveness and energy independenceThe political and economic reality of investing in US clean energyWhy resilience may define the next phase of the transitionThis episode was recorded prior to the recent storms in Portugal. For more information on how EDP is responding to the storms, and what to do if you are affected by them, please visit: www.edp.comLeadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:EDP website: https://edp.com/enThe £60 Billion Plan To Rewire Britain | Ep227: John Pettigrew https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Lg1A958aAThe Enormous Ambition Of Germany’s New Grid Build Out | Ep233: Tim Meyerjürgens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQgUuJ-dx78The $60 Billion Plan For Europe’s Largest AI Data Centre | Ep235: Robert Dunn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3wThe Price of Resilience - Ep8: Roger Dennis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELQT31riDE

This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with carbon removal insider Robert Höglund, CEO of Marginal Carbon, co-founder of CDR.fyi and architect of MilkyWire’s Climate Transformation Fund, for a deep dive into what’s working and what’s not in carbon dioxide removal and corporate climate action.Drawing on five years of hands-on experimentation funding everything from biochar to direct air capture and policy advocacy, Höglund challenges the dominant “speed and scale” narrative. Instead, he makes the case for a new phase: prove and learn. Together, Michael and Robert unpack why the highest-impact climate interventions are often the least measurable, why corporate net-zero targets are more conditional than we admit, and what it will actually take to make carbon removal credible, scalable, and worth paying for.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more: Marginal Carbon: Marginal CarbonCDR.fyi: https://www.cdr.fyi/MilkyWire Climate Transformation Fund: https://milkywire.com/Carbon Gap: https://carbongap.org/Julio Friedmann on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/DX7k6qnTxE8 

What if the future of clean energy isn’t decided in Washington, Brussels, or Beijing, but in Lagos, Nairobi, and Addis Ababa? Are we underestimating how fast the Global South is leapfrogging fossil fuels? And what happens when clean energy becomes the cheapest, fastest path to development, not a climate sacrifice?In this episode of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined for a third time by Damilola Ogunbiyi, CEO and UN Special Representative for Sustainable Energy for All and Co-Chair of UN Energy. Together, they explore how Africa and the wider Global South are quietly reshaping the global energy transition, from rapid growth in solar, storage, mini-grids, and EVs to bold policy moves that many developed economies haven’t dared to make.They dive into why energy access is about dignity, health, and gender equality; why finance, not technology, is the real bottleneck; and how local capital, data, and innovation could determine whether “Most of World” powers its future with clean energy or fossil fuels.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Sustainable Energy For All: https://www.seforall.orgDamilola’s past appearances on Cleaning Up:https://youtu.be/TbN1Y1C0idohttps://youtu.be/VcpNOmm1pMwBan Ki-moon on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/B14_MeRhfBwThe Sierra Leone Documentary: https://youtu.be/z-5QjSfy2SMClemens Calice on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/urmP7zN6n04Alain Ebobissé on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/ISTvp0BQz3E

How do we model the climate system? How warm will 2026 be? And can geoengineering be anything more than a bandaid?  This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington sits down with leading climate scientist Dr. Zeke Hausfather on the day the 2025 global temperature data is released. Despite a La Niña year, the planet has just experienced one of its hottest years on record — pushing us ever closer to the 1.5°C threshold. Zeke explains why recent warming has accelerated, how declining air pollution may be unmasking hidden heating, and what disappearing cloud cover could mean for climate sensitivity.  The conversation ranges from the surprising accuracy of early climate models, the risks of rising nationalism, and what the U.S. withdrawal from international science means for the world.  They also tackle controversial questions:  Are worst-case climate scenarios still plausible? Is geoengineering a dangerous distraction — or an emergency brake? And can carbon removals ever work economically at scale. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more: Zeke’s articles in the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/by/zeke-hausfather Zeke on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zeke-hausfather-7327699/ Zeke’s Blog on Substack: https://www.theclimatebrink.com/p/my-2026-and-2027-global-temperature  

Why does Africa, home to 18% of the world’s population, receive just 1% of global energy investment? What’s stopping money from flowing to the continent when it has such good wind and solar potential? And what would it take to unlock an energy boom that benefits both Africa and Europe?Spread across 54 countries and with a combined GDP the size of Italy, Africa's population is young and growing rapidly. It is set to grow from 1.5 billion people today to 2.5 billion by 2050. And it could reach 4 billion by 2100, accounting for two out of every five people on the planet.  Africans want and deserve the same prosperity shared by richer parts of the world. And that means investment. So why is investment not flowing? This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich speaks with Clemens Calice, CEO and founder of Cygnum Capital, which invests around $1.3 billion in Africa’s energy transition. Together they explore why risk perception and outdated models are slowing investment across Africa. From rooftop solar for factories and mines, to electric motorbikes, power pools, and the geopolitics of gas, this episode makes the pragmatic case for how Africa can leapfrog to a cleaner, more resilient energy future.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover more:Cygnum Capital: https://www.cygnumcapital.comEpisode 196, Lucy Heintz of Actis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhGDI_0QIHgEpisode 216, Daniel Calderon of Alcazar Energy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMhFOWO4C84Episode 120, Ana Hajduka, founder of Africa Green Co.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktWh_G6Sw_g