Spill the (Green) Tea with Rob Hopkins

Rob's two most recent books, From What Is to What If and How to Fall in Love with the Future, have made him one of the most distinctive voices in the climate space, not for telling people how bad things are, but for insisting that giving people something to long for is the most radical thing any of us can do.  In this episode, we cover: Why cynicism isn't clever, it's just lazy! It feels like intelligence because it's always proved right; you can forever find reasons to despair. But Rob argues it's a self-reinforcing spiral that actively prevents the kind of action that might change things, and that hopelessness isn't a breeding ground for good things.  "Hoping to" versus "hoping that" —passive hope (hoping that something will happen) is very different from active, grounded hope.  The cultivation of longing at scale is the biggest task of the climate movement, and the people who know how to cultivate desire aren't scientists, they're artists, poets, and the people who work in advertising.   The internet as a war on attention, and what that means for green communicators   What emerges from this conversation is both a provocation and an invitation. The future as we currently envision it is dark and scary and we need to create a sense of longing or what Rob calls “memories of the future” for a more positive outcome to give people something to move towards rather than run away from.  More from Rob Website: https://www.robhopkins.net/ Podcast: https://www.robhopkins.net/podcast/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/yoodooright1968 Resources mentioned:  From What Is to What If by Rob Hopkins  How to Fall in Love with the Future by Rob Hopkins  The Nutmeg's Curse: Parables for a Planet in Crisis by Amitav Ghosh   2040 — documentary by Damon Gameau, described as "an experiment in evidence-based dreaming"  Hurry Slowly podcast hosted by Jocelyn K. Glei  Screw This… Let's Try Something Else podcast hosted by Maryam Pasha and Matt Golding  Purpose Disruptors — a network of advertising insiders working to transform the industry to tackle climate change  Muslim Futures NK Tegelwippen — the Dutch national tile-flipping competition  More from KatieGreen, Not Greenwashed: Get the clarity and confidence you need to talk about your eco-efforts without the fear of greenwashing.Follow Katie on Instagram @katietreggiden.1More from MalinGreenwashing 101: Green or Greenwashed? Essential insights for sales and marketing professionals to make sense of sustainability and avoid falling into greenwashing's trap.Follow Malin on LinkedIn @malin-cunninghamPS Looking for Brackish? That has a new home at https://brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/t/podcast

Inspired by an article by Solitaire Townsend, they explore why so many businesses are falling short, why both greenwashing and greenhushing are the wrong response, and what brave, honest communication could look like instead. In this episode, we cover: Why so many businesses set ambitious net zero targets without a clear plan to deliver them, and why a mass missing of those targets is now inevitable The systemic barriers beyond individual companies' control and why that makes the comms challenge so much harder The generational divide between those who set big, hairy, audacious goals and the Gen Z workforce inheriting them and what that means for how we communicate imperfect progress Why transparent, substantive communication about missing targets builds more credibility than silence A practical framework for what "brave" comms actually looks like: own what you've done, explain what you haven't and why, separate systemic barriers from organisational ones, and always include a "what now" The episode is equal parts reality check and rallying cry because talking honestly about imperfect progress isn't a comms risk, it's the most credible thing a brand can do right now. Resources mentioned: How to Dodge the Imminent Net Zero Mass Failure by Solitaire Townsend, Chief Solutionist at Futera  Accenture analysis (November 2024) of the 2,000 largest emissions-reporting companies and net zero progress  The Power of TED* (*The Empowerment Dynamic) by David Emerald — on moving from the drama triangle (victim/rescuer/persecutor) to empowered communicator, challenger and coach (this is an affiliate link) The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey — specifically the circles of control, influence and concern (this is an affiliate link) Eden, by Tim Smit (this is an affiliate link) The Carbon Literacy Project The Anti-Greenwash Charter 1% for the Planet Brand examples: Ace & Tate, Patagonia, Tony's Chocolonely, Fairphone   You can access the full episode transcript here More from KatieGreen, Not Greenwashed: Get the clarity and confidence you need to talk about your eco-efforts without the fear of greenwashing.Follow Katie on Instagram @katietreggiden.1More from MalinGreenwashing 101: Green or Greenwashed? Essential insights for sales and marketing professionals to make sense of sustainability and avoid falling into greenwashing's trap.Follow Malin on LinkedIn @malin-cunninghamPS Looking for Brackish? That has a new home at https://brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/t/podcast

In this Episode of Spill the (Green) Tea, Katie and Malin speak about how to communicate sustainability clearly, credibly, and without getting called out sharing their two different (but surprisingly aligned) 3Cs frameworks for navigating climate communications. Together, they unpack what it really takes to build trust, avoid greenwashing, and bring audiences with you on the journey, not just at the finish line. In this episode, we cover: Why clarity and action must come before communication Two practical 3Cs frameworks for stronger sustainability messaging How transparency and progress build trust, even when things aren’t perfect yet The shift from vague claims to confident, specific communication How to structure and layer your messaging so it actually lands This episode is a practical deep dive into what responsible sustainability communication actually looks like and how it’s rooted in clarity, action, and honesty.   Resources mentioned: Green Claims Code (UK guidance on environmental claims) Anti-Greenwash Charter B Corp Certification Science Based Targets initiative (SBTi) How Bad Are Bananas? By Mike Berners-Lee Small99 Toolkit- A fun and engaging way to learn about carbon emissions and start conversations on practical actions organisations can take for a better future. Climate change: Earth's giant game of Tetris - Joss Fong Oatly You can access the full episode transcript here More from KatieGreen, Not Greenwashed: Get the clarity and confidence you need to talk about your eco-efforts without the fear of greenwashing.Follow Katie on Instagram @katietreggiden.1More from MalinGreenwashing 101: Green or Greenwashed? Essential insights for sales and marketing professionals to make sense of sustainability and avoid falling into greenwashing's trap.Follow Malin on LinkedIn @malin-cunninghamPS Looking for Brackish? That has a new home at https://brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/t/podcast

In this episode, Katie & Malin speak with Sangeeta Waldron, an author and award-winning communications specialist who helps organisations navigate the intersection of purpose, influence, and responsibility with a particular focus on climate change and decision-making under uncertainty. Sangeeta is the founder of Serendipity PR & Media, a Climate Reality Leader trained by Al Gore, and the global contributing editor for the India CSR Network. She has advised senior government officials and some of the world’s most influential organisations on ethical, effective, and culturally intelligent communication, and is a regular guest lecturer at UK universities. She is the author of three books, including What Will Your Legacy Be?, which was presented at Davos 2025, and Corporate Social Responsibility Is Not Public Relations, shortlisted for the UK Business Book Awards in 2022. As a keynote speaker and moderator, Sangeeta is known for bringing warmth, clarity, and deeply practical insight to complex conversations. In this episode, we cover: The power of honest, values-led communication in a polarised climate conversation How storytelling (not statistics alone) builds trust, engagement, and hope The danger of jargon, acronyms, and over-complicated language in sustainability messaging Why diversity of voices is essential in climate storytelling What companies get wrong about CSR when it’s driven by PR rather than values Greenhushing, greenwashing, and why silence can be just as damaging as spin Why admitting mistakes can strengthen credibility rather than undermine it This episode is a candid, hopeful conversation about how honesty, storytelling, and imperfect action can rebuild trust and move sustainability forward without fear or false perfection.   More from Sangeeta Website: http://www.serendipitypr.co.uk/ LinkedIn: @sangeetawaldron Instagram: @sangeeta.waldron Book: What will your legacy be? & Corporate Social Responsibility is Not Public Relations   Resources mentioned: What’s Your Dream by Simon Squibb Podcast: The Rest is Politics with Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart Project Drawdown®   You can access the full episode transcript here   More from KatieGreen, Not Greenwashed: Get the clarity and confidence you need to talk about your eco-efforts without the fear of greenwashing.Follow Katie on Instagram @katietreggiden.1More from MalinGreenwashing 101: Green or Greenwashed? Essential insights for sales and marketing professionals to make sense of sustainability and avoid falling into greenwashing's trap.Follow Malin on LinkedIn @malin-cunninghamPS Looking for Brackish? That has a new home at https://brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/t/podcast

In this episode, Katie and Malin explore the growing tension between greenwashing and greenhushing, starting with clear definitions of both and why the distinction matters. They introduce Planet Tracker’s Greenwashing Hydra as a useful framework for understanding the different ways misleading environmental claims show up, and explain why greenwashing, while problematic, is at least visible and open to challenge, whereas greenhushing removes information altogether and reduces accountability.  The conversation looks at how increased scrutiny, regulation and confusion around the Green Claims Code have led many organisations to retreat into silence, even when they are making genuine progress. They also unpack the wider forces driving greenhushing, from perfectionism and fear of getting it wrong to political pressure, economic uncertainty and the complexity of sustainability data. Katie and Malin discuss why silence slows collective progress, weakens transparency and can lead to fear-based decision making within organisations. At the same time, they highlight the opportunity for “brave brands” to stand out through honest communication, build trust and loyalty, and strengthen relationships with customers, partners, investors and employees.  The episode sets the tone for this new series, that imperfect but transparent communication is far more valuable than saying nothing at all and is essential for moving towards a regenerative economy. In this episode, we cover: The difference between greenwashing and greenhushing Why greenhushing can be more damaging than greenwashing The Greenwashing Hydra framework and six types of greenwashing Why businesses hesitate to talk about sustainability The risks of silence and fear-based governance How honest sustainability storytelling builds trust and credibility Why transparency helps accelerate real progress   Resources mentioned: Planet Trackers The Greenwashing Hydra Competitions and Markets Authority, the government body behind the Green Claims Code Skills for Planet - Design Council Texas Tribune: Texas bans local, state government entities from doing business with firms that “boycott” fossil fuels Globally representative evidence on the actual and perceived support for climate action LinkedIn Green Skills Report Blue Rock Search report The Edelman Trust Barometer 2025 InComms article - ‘Why do so many comms chiefs have sustainability in their portfolio?   You can access the full episode transcript here   More from KatieGreen, Not Greenwashed: Get the clarity and confidence you need to talk about your eco-efforts without the fear of greenwashing.Follow Katie on Instagram @katietreggiden.1More from MalinGreenwashing 101: Green or Greenwashed? Essential insights for sales and marketing professionals to make sense of sustainability and avoid falling into greenwashing's trap.Follow Malin on LinkedIn @malin-cunninghamPS Looking for Brackish? That has a new home at https://brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/t/podcast

Making Design Circular is evolving. With a new name, a new remit, and a new co-host, this next chapter is all about one of the most urgent conversations in business today: how to talk about sustainability with honesty, nuance, and confidence. Katie Treggiden is joined by Malin Cunningham, founder of B Corp-certified B2B thought leadership consultancy Hattrick, to launch Spill the Green Tea – a podcast exploring how brands can communicate their environmental efforts without tipping into greenwashing… or disappearing into greenhushing. In a world saturated with content, polished claims, and call-outs, the real differentiator is authenticity. Together, Katie and Malin unpack how to share imperfect eco-efforts with clarity and credibility, so your sustainability story builds trust instead of backlash. Expect thoughtful conversations, practical insights, and honest reflections on what it really takes to speak up responsibly in today’s climate-aware marketplace. If you care about communicating sustainability in a way that stands up to scrutiny and still stands out, subscribe now and be the first to tune in to Spill the Green Tea PS Looking for Brackish? That has a new home at https://brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/t/podcast More from KatieGreen, Not Greenwashed: Get the clarity and confidence you need to talk about your eco-efforts without the fear of greenwashing.Follow Katie on Instagram @katietreggiden.1More from MalinGreenwashing 101: Green or Greenwashed? Essential insights for sales and marketing professionals to make sense of sustainability and avoid falling into greenwashing's trap.Follow Malin on LinkedIn @malin-cunninghamPS Looking for Brackish? That has a new home at https://brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/t/podcast

In this episode, Katie speaks with Bernadette Russell, a storyteller, author and passionate tree planter whose work invites us to pay closer attention to the quiet magic of everyday life. Bernadette weaves together stories, community action and environmental care into a body of work that is both deeply hopeful and fiercely grounded.“Hope isn’t passive – it requires action. It’s a practice.” - Bernadette RussellWe cover:- What inspired her to do a daily act of kindness for 366 days – and how it changed everything- The role of hope in dark times, and how it coexists with grief, rage and despair- Why kindness is more powerful than we think – and often quietly everywhere- Stories from her tree planting, storytelling, and community projects- The media response to the 2011 London riots – and why it fuelled her mission- The difference between performative and meaningful action – and why small matters- The tension between anger and hope, and how we hold both- What it means to notice goodness, and how it can change how we feel in the world“It provided me with an opportunity to look at the same garden, but from a different window.” - Bernadette RussellThis conversation is a gentle, powerful reminder that hope doesn’t require perfect circumstances, and kindness doesn’t need to be grand to be meaningful.More from Bernadette:Website: www.bernadetterussell.comInstagram: @bernadetterussellBooks: Conversations of Kindness & How to Be Hopeful (these are affiliate links)More from Katie:Instagram: @katietreggiden.1Website: https://katietreggiden.com/Nature-inspired poetry: https://brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/t/poetryResources mentioned:BBC Ideas Documentary on 366 Days of KindnessTrees for Cities and Street Trees for LivingThe Spiritual Poems of Rumi (this is an affiliate link)Check out my full Bookshop.org podcast reading list to find links to all the books mentioned throughout Season 6 of Brackish.What next?If all this talk of defiant hope has got you wondering where you can find some, I have something for you. Cultivating Hope is my three-part mini-course and it’s the three steps I move through whenever I start to feel despair tugging at my edges.You will move out of ‘fight, flight or freeze’ mode and into a calm and connected state, reconnect with nature, and find aligned actions that you can take now to keep you to remind you that you can make a difference.In the current climate, hope is an act of defiance, and it’s one I hope you’ll take with me.Click here to find out more here This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/subscribe

Trigger Warning: We discuss the sudden loss of a loved one. If this is something you are experiencing right now or have a sensitivity towards, please listen with caution. In this episode, Katie speaks with Stefanie Cheong, an artist jeweller and educator based in Scotland, whose work sits at the intersection of geology, anthropology, and environmentalism.Stefanie explores the deep time stories of our planet through jewellery, objects, and collaborations — from cutting Scottish rocks to creating new materials from waste. Together, they discuss the GeoAnthropology Project, the emotional resilience of making, and how creativity, community, and connection can forge defiant hope even in the face of grief and crisis.“When everything else felt out of control, making gave me something I could do, something I could control.” - Stefanie CheongWe cover:- How Stefanie’s dyslexia shaped her creative process and love of making- The alchemy of metal and her discovery that it can be infinitely recycled- Why she chose to create her own ethical supply chain by finding and even making her own rocks- The GeoAnthropology Project — exploring human evolution through rock, from Stone Age flint to future fossils- What it feels like to work with rocks that are three billion years old- Her collaboration with architect Andy Campbell on Sitting Pretty — a bench that embodies deep time and material storytelling- How grief and creativity can coexist, and how making became a form of grounding and healing- The ritual of her Moon Rocks practice — working with one rock for each lunar cycle- Reclaiming hope through connection, action, and community — from People Planet Pint to Making Design Circular“Crisis can be a turning point — it means things can only get better.” - Stefanie CheongThis episode is a beautiful exploration of how creativity, geology, and grief intertwine. Stefanie reminds us that making is not only a way of storytelling through materials, but also a path back to ourselves. Through deep time, connection, and collaboration, she shows that even in crisis, there’s space for renewal and for hope forged in stone.More from Stefanie:Website: https://www.stefaniecheong.co.uk/Follow Stef: @stefaniecheong and @stefanieyinglincheongMore from Katie:Instagram: @katietreggiden.1Website: https://katietreggiden.com/Nature-inspired poetry: https://brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/t/poetryResources mentioned:People Planet Pint / People Planet Pastry – global sustainability meetupsMaking Design Circular Podcast, with Katie & Lauren ChangBrackish, Season 6 Ep 12 with Helen BowkettResearch into the physiological effects of sewingCheck out my full Bookshop.org podcast reading list to find links to all the books mentioned throughout Season 6 of Brackish.What next?If all this talk of defiant hope has got you wondering where you can find some, I have something for you. Cultivating Hope is my three-part mini-course and it’s the three steps I move through whenever I start to feel despair tugging at my edges.You will move out of ‘fight, flight or freeze’ mode and into a calm and connected state, reconnect with nature, and find aligned actions that you can take now to keep you to remind you that you can make a difference.In the current climate, hope is an act of defiance, and it’s one I hope you’ll take with me.Click here to find out more here This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Katie speaks with Emmi Salonen, a Finnish graphic designer, creative director and educator, about creative wellbeing, burnout recovery, and how nature, travel and making connect us back to purpose.Emmi is the founder of London-based Studio Emmi, known for championing Positive Creativity – the belief that design can foster wellbeing, connection, and sustainable choices. In this conversation, she shares the story behind her new book The Creative Wellbeing Handbook, how burnout changed her approach to creativity, and why building a creative ecosystem might be your most important project yet.“Your creativity doesn’t exist in a silo – it’s interdependent, like everything in nature.” - Emmi SalonenIn this conversation, Kerry shares her personal and professional journey, from working in egg mayonnaise factories and funding bid writing to co-founding a business with her sisters and how all of it led to the creation of work that is rooted in community, joy and transformation.What unfolds is a rich, honest and deeply human exploration of how we keep going when things feel hard, why creativity is a powerful force in social justice, and how we build structures that truly support wellbeing, not just perform it.We cover:- Emmi’s journey from burnout to building a model for creative wellbeing- How solo travel sparked her first creative idea after a long pause- The power of making, nature, and deep observation- What creatives can learn from traditional craft cultures- The five areas of Emmi’s “Creative Ecosystem” model – and how they map to the design process- Why presence, rest and joy are creative tools too- The book-writing process and gathering 100+ creative voices from around the worldThis episode is a gentle yet powerful invitation to rethink what it means to live and work creatively — especially when the spark feels far away.Through Emmi’s story of burnout, recovery, and deep solo travel, we’re reminded that creative energy isn’t something we force — it’s something we nourish. From volcanic landscapes to hand-carved bus stops, her journey weaves together beauty, slowness and connection as tools for coming back to ourselves.Whether you’re in a creative rut, craving spaciousness, or simply curious about building a more sustainable relationship with your work, this conversation is a quiet balm — full of warmth, wisdom and the kind of insight that lingers long after listening.More from Kerry:Studio Website: www.emmi.co.ukBook site: www.creativewellbeingbook.comFollow Emmi: @studioemmi on Instagram and LinkedInPre-Order Emmi’s book: The Creative Wellbeing Handbook – out November 12“Fundamentally, you are already enough. This book isn’t another to-do list – it’s an invitation to breathe in.” - Emmi SalonenMore from Katie:Instagram: @katietreggiden.1Website: https://katietreggiden.com/Nature-inspired poetry: https://brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/t/poetryResources mentioned:Course: Sustainable Branding via DomestikaOnline Course: The Science of Well-Being by Yale UniversityCheck out my full Bookshop.org podcast reading list to find links to all the books mentioned throughout Season 6 of Brackish.What next?If all this talk of defiant hope has got you wondering where you can find some, I have something for you. Cultivating Hope is my three-part mini-course and it’s the three steps I move through whenever I start to feel despair tugging at my edges.You will move out of ‘fight, flight or freeze’ mode and into a calm and connected state, reconnect with nature, and find aligned actions that you can take now to keep you to remind you that you can make a difference.In the current climate, hope is an act of defiance, and it’s one I hope you’ll take with me.Click here to find out more here This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Katie speaks with Kerry Tottingham, a social change designer and Strategic Lead of A Brilliant Thing CIC. Kerry’s work sits at the intersection of healing, systems change and creativity, and through her framework Healing-Centred Design®, she helps leaders and organisations transform adversity into energy, action and impact.“Hope isn’t an emotion. It’s an everyday action.” - Kerry TottinghamIn this conversation, Kerry shares her personal and professional journey, from working in egg mayonnaise factories and funding bid writing to co-founding a business with her sisters and how all of it led to the creation of work that is rooted in community, joy and transformation.What unfolds is a rich, honest and deeply human exploration of how we keep going when things feel hard, why creativity is a powerful force in social justice, and how we build structures that truly support wellbeing, not just perform it.We cover:- Kerry’s unconventional route to founding A Brilliant Thing CIC with her sisters- How the Healing-Centred Design® methodology works and why it matters- The shift from seeing hope as passive to practicing it as an active daily choice- What it means to move from pain to power, both personally and collectively- The role of sensory experiences, creativity and joy in designing systemic change- Why saying “not this” is a great place to start but not where we should stop- How Kerry’s team challenges conventional working norms- A look at her new book: Healing-Centred Transformation (June 2025)This episode is a beautiful reminder that healing and hope aren’t things we wait for, they’re things we build, bit by bit, through the choices we make every day.Whether you’re designing a programme, leading a team, navigating chronic illness, or simply trying to find your way through a difficult season, Kerry’s work offers a grounded, creative, and deeply human approach to doing it differently.More from Kerry:Website: https://brilliantthing.co.uk/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kerrytottingham/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abrilliantthing/More from Katie:Instagram: @katietreggiden.1Website: https://katietreggiden.com/Blue Health Coaching: https://makingdesigncircular.org/coachingNature-inspired poetry: https://brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/t/poetryResources mentioned:Healing-Centred Transformation by Kerry Tottingham (This is an affiliate link)The Brilliant Club – a learning space and coaching programme for leaders living with chronic conditionsThe Brilliant Box – a deck of coaching cards for reflection, group development and values-led strategyBrilliant Thing, Desire Paths - Create desire paths to get work done (and meet our needs)Invisibilia (podcast) – Unseeable forces control human behavior and shape our ideas, beliefs, and assumptions. Invisibilia—Latin for invisible things—fuses narrative storytelling with science that will make you see your own life differently.Out of the Box project by Special ProjectsBrackish - S6 E9: Sas Petherick & Blackout Poem #5Check out my full Bookshop.org podcast reading list to find links to all the books mentioned throughout Season 6 of Brackish.What next?If all this talk of defiant hope has got you wondering where you can find some, I have something for you. Cultivating Hope is my three-part mini-course and it’s the three steps I move through whenever I start to feel despair tugging at my edges.You will move out of ‘fight, flight or freeze’ mode and into a calm and connected state, reconnect with nature, and find aligned actions that you can take now to keep you to remind you that you can make a difference.In the current climate, hope is an act of defiance, and it’s one I hope you’ll take with me.Click here to find out more here This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit brackishbykatietreggiden.substack.com/subscribe