Episode 75: Lucy Letby Matters with Guy Rowland (Part 2 of 2)

We complete our talk with Guy Rowland, the creator of the ‘Botched’ series which relates to the Cheshire Police investigation of Lucy Letby and her subsequent trials.   After discussing the rest of the original trial, including the issues around defence witnesses, air embolism and insulin, Antony and Guy move on to a range of topics, including two very important past miscarriages of justice. The cases of Sally Clark (which also involved Cheshire Police) and Lucia De Berk (a nurse whose conviction bears many similar hallmarks to that of Letby) should have served as cautionary tales, but did they?   There are also important psychological factors involved in the Letby case that are discussed, including confirmation bias and other biases, cognitive dissonance, framing, the use of the catch-all discrediting ‘conspiracy theory’ phrase, and the weaponised use of emotion around the families of the most fragile and helpless of victims.   In addition, we ponder what makes a person ‘look guilty’ or ‘look innocent’, especially if a strong preconceived idea about them is already present. Finally, we speculate about the future for Lucy Letby and the justice system itself, and Antony recounts a recent interesting experience in the world of tribalism.   We hope you find this of interest. If so, please share links and tell others about it   Feedback to [email protected]   Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/lifeandlife75   Twitter https://twitter.com/lifeonly75   Support the show at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/antonyrotunno OR https://www.buymeacoffee.com/antonyrotunno   Antony’s website (blog, music, podcasts, life coaching)  https://www.antonyrotunno.com   Antony’s John Lennon podcast https://glassoniononjohnlennon.com   If you are interested in very affordable Life Coaching, or know someone who might be, you can contact Antony on [email protected]   Guy Rowland’s ‘Botched’ series (3 parts) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2Ed565aCm8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikOJTE6uLoU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D4qtjitF7A   Guy’s channel ‘Lucy Letby Films’ https://www.youtube.com/@LucyLetbyFilms   episode links Christopher Morris’s you tube channel and book https://www.youtube.com/@LLAnalysis/featured https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/249702510   Dewi Evans vs Colin Ferguson (from the recent Channel 5 documentary) https://www.youtube.com/shorts/36YJ0b7Y1c4   Mistakes Were Made, But Not By Me (recommended book) https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/522525   The cases of Sally Clark and Lucia De Berk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Clark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucia_de_Berk_case   Guy’s video on the problem of witch hunts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNl1kNysKgw   Conspiracy Theory: A Powerful Phrase (previous episode of ’Life And Life Only’) https://lifeandlifeonly.podbean.com/e/episode-8-conspiracy-theory-a-powerful-phrase/   Judith Moritz on ‘Loose Woman’ (Lucy in court) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWC624utk3g&t=56s   Chris Morris critiques Liz Hull and Caroline Cheetham’s interview with professor Michael Hall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBWv1f7BxnM&t=1463s

Following mentions of Lucy Letby in previous episodes, we embark on a journey of over 2 hours into the case, aided by the extensive knowledge of Guy Rowland, the maker of the ‘Botched’ series which covered the more-than-questionable investigation and trials of Letby   In this part, we begin with Guy’s background, Guy and Antony give their Letby origin stories, and then Guy talks about the making of his series. From there we look at the investigation and the trials (the latter to be continued next time), and along the way there is discussion of some of the psychological factors of the case, not least how people form impressions from the evidence given and the way it’s put across.   And then there’s Dewi Evans…   We hope you enjoy it! Part 2 will be released next week   Feedback to [email protected]   Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/lifeandlife75   Twitter https://twitter.com/lifeonly75   Support the show at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/antonyrotunno OR https://www.buymeacoffee.com/antonyrotunno   Antony’s website (blog, music, podcasts, life coaching)  https://www.antonyrotunno.com   Antony’s John Lennon podcast https://glassoniononjohnlennon.com   If you are interested in very affordable Life Coaching, or know someone who might be, you can contact Antony on [email protected]   Guy Rowland’s ‘Botched’ series (3 parts) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2Ed565aCm8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikOJTE6uLoU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D4qtjitF7A   Guy’s channel ‘Lucy Letby Films’ https://www.youtube.com/@LucyLetbyFilms   episode links Christopher Morris’s you tube channel and book https://www.youtube.com/@LLAnalysis/featured https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/249702510   Chris is ‘grilled’ on ‘This Much Is True Crime’ podcast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n-62tZsFaw&t=2s   The Shoo Lee press conference in full https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT8CO15IHMs   Dewi Evans interview and profile (‘Was There Ever A Crime?’ podcast) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCloxIjxzRk   Dewi responds to the panel of experts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haKm26ohvMY   Dawn on her best friend Lucy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EItry5r_8oE Lucy Letby: Beyond Reasonable Doubt? (ITV doc) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UohWz9L6PTs   Michele Worden tells it like it is (with Carl Bolton) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCLg_QiQVOs Dr. Steve Watts critiques Cheshire police’s celebratory ‘Operation Hummingbird’ video (with Paul Hughes as David Brent) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEImGKSuiaA&t=887s   Caroline Cheetham's conflict of interest (beware of 'The Trial of Lucy Letby' podcast https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/11/letby-podcaster-in-conflict-of-interest-row-over-payments   Judith Moritz thinks Lucy ‘looks guilty’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWC624utk3g&t=56s   Theaters of War (doc about Pentagon/CIA involvement in Hollywood films) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11841496   12 Angry Men (original teleplay) and the jury system https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vteQjWCbzoQ   12 Angry Men (1957) and the value of life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLFeLV9QS-8

We move away from animal issues this time for 100 minutes of free-range conversation (excuse the pun) and accessible psychology with film analysis legend Rob Ager.   This discussion actually took place face-to-face in Rob’s house in Liverpool in August, quite a rarity for podcasts nowadays, and the idea was to pool our wealth of collective knowledge and experience to offer some useful and hopefully inspiring ideas, covering both the inner and outer truth strands of this podcast.   On the inner truth side, there are nods to the role of narratives in our lives, the roles we play, class & cultural issues, shame, humour, self-education, truth through disorders and keys to happiness. In terms of outer truth, we discuss among other things office politics, media narratives, 9/11 and its crisis-managed aftermath   Rob also talks about his interesting background (partly through films) and we briefly touch on previous LALO topics of interest, namely Southport, Lucy Letby and the establishment’s favourite weapon against dissidents, the phrase ‘conspiracy theory’   Finally, we discuss alternative ‘New Hollywood’ 70s films and the surprising effect that dark material and our own demons can have on us   Hope you enjoy it!   Feedback to [email protected]   Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/lifeandlife75   Twitter https://twitter.com/lifeonly75   Support the show at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/antonyrotunno OR https://www.buymeacoffee.com/antonyrotunno   Antony’s website (blog, music, podcasts, life coaching)  https://www.antonyrotunno.com   Antony’s John Lennon podcast https://glassoniononjohnlennon.com   If you are interested in very affordable Life Coaching, or know someone who might be, you can contact Antony on [email protected]   Rob’s website & you tube channels https://www.collativelearning.com/   https://www.youtube.com/@collativelearning https://www.youtube.com/@robag555 https://www.youtube.com/@robagergames   episode notes Rob on Billy Moore’s podcast (Liverpool background & films) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lPYhqvd1Ns   Coppola on Rumblefish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoeBFpbDH_0   Tom Brown’s School Days (1951) full film colourised https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeanYQOPlM   I Swear (2025 film about Tourette’s) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt31514146/   Barry Morrow on his script for Rain Man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnoffZoQmuw   Rob on how to manage your boss (includes the 2007 Rob Ager!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIm3epFU2Tw   Robert Greene books (The 48 Laws of Power, The Art of Seduction & The Laws of Human Nature) https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1303.The_48_Laws_of_Power https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20995.The_Art_of_Seduction https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39330937-the-laws-of-human-nature   The Power of Nightmares (Adam Curtis) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxBbw13Y3Gc&list=PLtsknc8NVnKMWXbxbm5STDuaBoxrYEtjk&index=25   Manufacturing Consent (Noam Chomsky) https://zeitgeistfilms.com/film/manufacturingconsent   Moviedrome documentary (cult films) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuA_m2llcRQ   Antony appears on a review of ‘Capricorn One’ https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/show/b862b31f-5020-4bf0-98a9-0440f526de1f/id/42329730   Bill Hicks- It’s Just A Ride https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzQuE1pR1w   The Boy Who Cried Wolf (Aesop’s fable) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9YllX5eeKY

We complete our slightly gentler follow-up to the 'Animals For Food' series by hitting a few more topics around animals and life itself.   'The wild' (natural world) is basically the most dangerous ghetto imaginable, and Antony muses on the brutality of it all and whether the contrast between this ultimate survival test and the benevolent calm of a sanctuary might give a clue as to the innate aggression (or lack of) in the creatures we know to be predators.   We also look at the amazing work done by Jill Robinson and 'Animals Asia' in rescuing brown and moon 'bile bears' from the cruellest of long-term confinement in China and Vietnam, and then look at the even longer-term suffering of elephants in Thailand used for logging, elephant rides and other exhausting and thankless toil.   The rescues of these enormous and magnificent creatures is the happier and inspirational part of the story, and Antony offers some thoughts on what we can learn from animals and their mostly troubled existence surviving and trying to raise families.   There's also a preview of the next 2 episodes, which are with a film analysis legend who some of you may know   We hope you enjoy the show   Feedback to [email protected]   Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/lifeandlife75   Twitter https://twitter.com/lifeonly75   Support the show at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/antonyrotunno OR https://www.buymeacoffee.com/antonyrotunno   Antony’s website (blog, music, podcasts, life coaching)  https://www.antonyrotunno.com   Antony’s John Lennon podcast https://glassoniononjohnlennon.com   If you are interested in very affordable Life Coaching, or know someone who might be, you can contact Antony on [email protected]   episode links Jack Hancock-Fairs on animals in the wild https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnLtSowMhWU   Juliet Gellatley's rousing speech at Vegan Campout 2019 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS9uv-CJQbM   Juliet vs Piers Moron https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AQ5f_YLH1U   'To The Moon And Back'- must-watch documentary about Jill Robinson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O4sObx7ZVo   Animals Asia bear rescue videos (poignant & heartwarming beyond words) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUaGM0z_M2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrZMGwwi-Eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foFNF7SUmik&t=107s   Raju The Crying elephant is free! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx2GTnYRjqo&t=107s   Elephants in mud (joy!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHrvEG5_Dy   Are lions naturally dangerous and ferocious? (watch and see) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IChRNbuHHWE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_mYmsrhsLM https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DtIi22FZcMM   Mark Devlin lays out the truth (2019) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjj1ZaaOnEg

Out of the darkness of the recent ‘Animals For Food’ series comes something a little more hopeful, though not without a few more difficult details   Antony talks about the aftermath of the series, including the reading of some recent feedback from valued listeners and how the research and production of the episodes, which involved immersion in a hopelessly dark and twisted world, has changed his own experience of life on a daily basis   Among the works recently consumed and discussed by your humble host are ‘Upton Sinclair’s 1905 novel ‘The Jungle’, a seminal work when it comes to food-related exploitation and the excesses of capitalist greed, and a documentary called ‘Dominion’, which would probably be the ultimate game changer if the world would just stop what they are doing and watch it.   There’s also some talk of dreams, celebrities and a couple of other things…   Part 2 will be available in the following week   We hope you find this of interest   Feedback to [email protected]   Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/lifeandlife75   Twitter https://twitter.com/lifeonly75   Support the show at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/antonyrotunno OR https://www.buymeacoffee.com/antonyrotunno   Antony’s website (blog, music, podcasts, life coaching)  https://www.antonyrotunno.com   Antony’s John Lennon podcast https://glassoniononjohnlennon.com   If you are interested in very affordable Life Coaching, or know someone who might be, you can contact Antony on [email protected]   episode links ‘The Jungle’ by Upton Sinclair https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41681.The_Jungle   ‘Dominion’ documentary (link on right hand side of page- watch if you dare!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(2018_film)   Ed Winters and Joey Carbstrong attempt to break the mainstream media resistance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy65IdIr1Rk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya76fJiAWU8&t=11s   Joey’s film ‘Pignorant’ https://pignorantfilm.com/   Wayne Hsiung on the dangers and importance of animal rescue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktSorZKpJtc&t=1866s   Wayne on ‘Why We Rescue’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quv6hmq-qNA   BBC article on the heartwarming murder of buffaloes https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr7kv71zx31o   Gary Yourofsky epic life-changing speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4&rco=1   Moby’s TED talk about veganism https://www.ted.com/talks/moby_why_i_m_a_vegan   TED talk about animal thought and sentience https://www.ted.com/talks/carl_safina_what_are_animals_thinking_and_feeling

The series completes itself with a look at the grandaddy of them all, Shaun Monson's 'Earthlings'. Although food has been the main focus of the series, this documentary also looks at the use of animals as pets (even that isn't always pretty), for clothes, for entertainment and finally for scientific experiments. Shaun's 2015 sequel 'Unity' is in the show notes below.   Antony also mentions a couple of Australian documentaries that are even harder to watch than 'Earthlings' (if that's even possible), and offers some final statements and some attempt at a conclusion.   General series notes We all know it's happening. We all know it's horrific but try to tell ourselves it's not that bad and if we just buy free-range eggs we can square it with our conscience and sleep peacefully. However, research and just a small sample of the copious amounts of truly heartbreaking video footage available makes it clear that it is far, far worse than we think (note- the information in this podcast series is actually quite sanitised compared to other testimonies and footage out there).   Who is to blame? The consumer or the industry? It seems to be a chicken-and-egg situation that could be improved greatly by the average consumer deciding to invest time in discovering what is behind some of the shameful (and shameless) propaganda techniques employed by the food industry. As should be clear in the series, the animals are the biggest victims but not the only ones, which is obvious when you research the state of meat, eggs and dairy that is routinely passed as 'safe to consume'.   To gain a better idea of how and why this nasty business is allowed to happen, a recommended companion piece is the excellent documentary 'The Corporation' and indeed the previous LALO episode on it (see show notes for both). We really owe it to ourselves and the animals who largely live miserable, hellish lives before suffering painful and brutal deaths, to make the effort in the ultimate information age to inform ourselves of the real situation. Unfettered capitalism cannot be allowed to run riot without resistance.   Do I recommend watching the documentaries and other video footage available? I'm going to say yes but please proceed with caution and I would actively discourage viewing them if you feel in a vulnerable or depressive state because they have the power to make you question whether true humanity exists and how we can possibly behave in this kind of way to innocent, defenceless beings (once again, I would also include some humans in this).   As the saying goes, 'once you've seen it, you can't unsee it', and as Ed Winters aka Earthling Ed says at the end of 'Land of Hope And Glory', 'you can never again say you didn't know'. While listening, consider/research the following; normalisation, desensitisation, disassociation, cultural reinforcement, cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, power(lessness), exploitation, deception, isolation, (relative) value of life, respect, compassion, sympathy, mercy, humanity.   We hope you find this of interest Thanks for listening!   Feedback to [email protected]   Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/lifeandlife75   Twitter https://twitter.com/lifeonly75   Support the show at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/antonyrotunno OR https://www.buymeacoffee.com/antonyrotunno   Antony’s website (blog, music, podcasts, life coaching)  https://www.antonyrotunno.com   Antony’s John Lennon podcast https://glassoniononjohnlennon.com   If you are interested in very affordable Life Coaching, or know someone who might be, you can contact Antony on [email protected]   Series links Shaun Monson (maker of ‘Earthlings’) Earthlings film (2005) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XrY2TP0ZyU   20th anniversary interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EGAFYWAwQE   Shaun’s TEDx talk (‘No Separation Based On Form) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P7eopjN92c   Unity (2015) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4cMqtiTC6k   How do you get people to watch Earthlings (2 approaches) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Zh810bznk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J8pdru1TOc   Ed Winters aka ‘Earthling Ed’ Land of Hope and Glory (the UK ‘Earthlings’, made by Surge in 2017) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvtVkNofcq8&t=2s   Surge’s website https://www.surgeactivism.org/ourmission   Ed’s TED talk about veganism https://www.ted.com/talks/ed_winters_every_argument_against_veganism   An eye-opening speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3u7hXpOm58   Ed’s most recent published books https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58093554-this-is-vegan-propaganda https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/124846667-how-to-argue-with-a-meat-eater   Ed debates (schools) a dairy farmer on the BBC https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/124846667-how-to-argue-with-a-meat-eater   Jack Hancock Jack’s film ‘The Dying Trade’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qb-9Q0YhVA   Jack’s channel https://www.youtube.com/@HumaneHancock   The video that inspired this podcast series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX4_fFjw3Ag   Slaughterhouse worker Tom talks to Jack (very disturbing) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSbhLL2CF9o   Gail Eisnitz Gail’s books https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/220160974-out-of-sight https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31474.Slaughterhouse   Gail on the ‘Our Hen House’ podcast https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep858   Joey Carbstrong Joey’s short film ‘Gaslit’ (what routinely happens to pigs in the UK) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql_L4JD0Fpc   Joey appears on the Jeremy Vine show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya76fJiAWU8   Joey Carbstrong exposes ‘premium turkey’ farming (please tell Jamie Oliver if you see him) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FMxd67zeXE   Hens in gas chambers (watch if you dare) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81NRCt6Z2I   Other links 1 Vegan vs 20 Meat Eaters with Dr Jack Symes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsNBKKRXqI4   Jack talks to Joe Rogan about veganism and hunting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0mB_MStUsk   Chris Delforce’s films ‘Lucent’ and ‘Dominion’ (very graphic!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KArL5YjaL5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko   ‘Un-Australian’ activists shut down the Melbourne central business district, inspired by ‘Dominion’ https://veganrising.org.au/melbourne-city-centre-shut-down-for-animals/   Chris Delforce speaks at the Perth Vegan Expo 2023 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ydDkUNlewU   Humanemyth.org (deconstructing the myths of animal agriculture) https://humanemyth.org/   Roasting the Planet (2025 report on animal agriculture and the climate) https://foe.org/resources/heating-the-planet-big-meat-and-dairys-big-emissions/   Vegan TV ads (very effective!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psdtyJ2aizI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6PMX30PViA   Recommended books ‘Dominion’ and ’ The Jungle’ https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7260.Dominion https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41681.The_Jungle   Simon Amstell’s ‘Carnage’ (2017) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfUSdrSS4ms   Activist and ex-Slaughterhouse worker talks to ‘Vegan Gaze’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4mRK1gQ_m8   The truth about supermarket eggs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KUGRLaz-2s   ‘The Corporation’ film and previous LALO episode about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhixR6h5RSI https://lifeandlifeonly.podbean.com/e/episode-33-the-corporation/   The heartwarming story of Dolly (videos in reverse order on playlist, watch from bottom to top) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6VPBMQoGl0&list=PLKk60gBKlu0aYiHq_mKBw7ZflwCJDLUR-&index=4   The history and ending of public executions https://capitalpunishmentuk.org/the-ending-of-public-executions-in-the-19th-century/   TED talk about the bees disappearing https://www.ted.com/talks/marla_spivak_why_bees_are_disappearing  

Continuing with this most upsetting but vitally important topic, Antony completes his look at 'Land of Hope And Glory', discusses the big myth about tradition and change and then switches to a new documentary called 'The Dying Trade'.   This film was made by Jack Hancock, who gives the issue a new spin by exploring his relationship with his father, who just happens to be a man-and-boy slaughterhouse worker (Antony avoids euphemistic words like 'abattoir' throughout this series). Along the way, Jack meets a Holocaust survivor and such legends as Temple Grandin and Gail Eisnitz.   As Upton Sinclair famously said, 'it's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it'.    This second part ends with testimonies from some rather brave slaughterhouse workers, who are largely victims themselves working in a stressful and terrifying environment which is, as Shaun Monson puts it, 'both a kitchen and a toilet'.   General series notes We all know it's happening. We all know it's horrific but try to tell ourselves it's not that bad and if we just buy free-range eggs we can square it with our conscience and sleep peacefully. However, research and just a small sample of the copious amounts of truly heartbreaking video footage available makes it clear that it is far, far worse than we think (note- the information in this podcast series is actually quite sanitised compared to other testimonies and footage out there).   Who is to blame? The consumer or the industry? It seems to be a chicken-and-egg situation that could be improved greatly by the average consumer deciding to invest time in discovering what is behind some of the shameful (and shameless) propaganda techniques employed by the food industry. As should be clear in the series, the animals are the biggest victims but not the only ones, which is obvious when you research the state of meat, eggs and dairy that is routinely passed as 'safe to consume'.   To gain a better idea of how and why this nasty business is allowed to happen, a recommended companion piece is the excellent documentary 'The Corporation' and indeed the previous LALO episode on it (see show notes for both). We really owe it to ourselves and the animals who largely live miserable, hellish lives before suffering painful and brutal deaths, to make the effort in the ultimate information age to inform ourselves of the real situation. Unfettered capitalism cannot be allowed to run riot without resistance.   Do I recommend watching the documentaries and other video footage available? I'm going to say yes but please proceed with caution and I would actively discourage viewing them if you feel in a vulnerable or depressive state because they have the power to make you question whether true humanity exists and how we can possibly behave in this kind of way to innocent, defenceless beings (once again, I would also include some humans in this).   As the saying goes, 'once you've seen it, you can't unsee it', and as Ed Winters aka Earthling Ed says at the end of 'Land of Hope And Glory', 'you can never again say you didn't know'. While listening, consider/research the following; normalisation, desensitisation, disassociation, cultural reinforcement, cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, power(lessness), exploitation, deception, isolation, (relative) value of life, respect, compassion, sympathy, mercy, humanity.   We hope you find this of interest Thanks for listening!   Feedback to [email protected]   Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/lifeandlife75   Twitter https://twitter.com/lifeonly75   Support the show at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/antonyrotunno OR https://www.buymeacoffee.com/antonyrotunno   Antony’s website (blog, music, podcasts, life coaching)  https://www.antonyrotunno.com   Antony’s John Lennon podcast https://glassoniononjohnlennon.com   If you are interested in very affordable Life Coaching, or know someone who might be, you can contact Antony on [email protected]   Series links Shaun Monson (maker of ‘Earthlings’) Earthlings film (2005) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XrY2TP0ZyU   20th anniversary interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EGAFYWAwQE   Shaun’s TEDx talk (‘No Separation Based On Form’) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P7eopjN92c   Unity (2015) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4cMqtiTC6k   How do you get people to watch Earthlings (2 approaches) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Zh810bznk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J8pdru1TOc   Ed Winters aka ‘Earthling Ed’ Land of Hope and Glory (the UK ‘Earthlings’, made by Surge in 2017) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvtVkNofcq8&t=2s   Surge’s website https://www.surgeactivism.org/ourmission   Ed’s TED talk about veganism https://www.ted.com/talks/ed_winters_every_argument_against_veganism   An eye-opening speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3u7hXpOm58   Ed’s most recent published books https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58093554-this-is-vegan-propaganda https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/124846667-how-to-argue-with-a-meat-eater   Ed debates (schools) a dairy farmer on the BBC https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/124846667-how-to-argue-with-a-meat-eater   Jack Hancock Jack’s film ‘The Dying Trade’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qb-9Q0YhVA   Jack’s channel https://www.youtube.com/@HumaneHancock   The video that inspired this podcast series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX4_fFjw3Ag   Slaughterhouse worker Tom talks to Jack (very disturbing) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSbhLL2CF9o   Gail Eisnitz Gail’s books https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/220160974-out-of-sight https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31474.Slaughterhouse   Gail on the ‘Our Hen House’ podcast https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep858   Joey Carbstrong Joey’s short film ‘Gaslit’ (what routinely happens to pigs in the UK) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql_L4JD0Fpc   Joey appears on the Jeremy Vine show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya76fJiAWU8   Joey Carbstrong exposes ‘premium turkey’ farming (please tell Jamie Oliver if you see him) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FMxd67zeXE   Hens in gas chambers (watch if you dare) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81NRCt6Z2I   Other links 1 Vegan vs 20 Meat Eaters with Dr Jack Symes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsNBKKRXqI4   Jack talks to Joe Rogan about veganism and hunting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0mB_MStUsk   Chris Delforce’s films ‘Lucent’ and ‘Dominion’ (very graphic!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KArL5YjaL5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko   ‘Un-Australian’ activists shut down the Melbourne central business district, inspired by ‘Dominion’ https://veganrising.org.au/melbourne-city-centre-shut-down-for-animals/   Chris Delforce speaks at the Perth Vegan Expo 2023 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ydDkUNlewU   Humanemyth.org (deconstructing the myths of animal agriculture) https://humanemyth.org/   Roasting the Planet (2025 report on animal agriculture and the climate) https://foe.org/resources/heating-the-planet-big-meat-and-dairys-big-emissions/   Vegan TV ads (very effective!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psdtyJ2aizI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6PMX30PViA   Recommended books ‘Dominion’ and ’ The Jungle’ https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7260.Dominion https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41681.The_Jungle   Simon Amstell’s ‘Carnage’ (2017) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfUSdrSS4ms   Activist and ex-Slaughterhouse worker talks to ‘Vegan Gaze’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4mRK1gQ_m8   The truth about supermarket eggs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KUGRLaz-2s   ‘The Corporation’ film and previous LALO episode about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhixR6h5RSI https://lifeandlifeonly.podbean.com/e/episode-33-the-corporation/   The heartwarming story of Dolly (videos in reverse order on playlist, watch from bottom to top) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6VPBMQoGl0&list=PLKk60gBKlu0aYiHq_mKBw7ZflwCJDLUR-&index=4   The history and ending of public executions https://capitalpunishmentuk.org/the-ending-of-public-executions-in-the-19th-century/   TED talk about the bees disappearing https://www.ted.com/talks/marla_spivak_why_bees_are_disappearing  

This is the first part of a series on a topic which could be the most important and urgent ever covered on this podcast. There's no doubt that the research, including lots of video footage, has been the most upsetting and harrowing, but there has been a strangely cathartic quality to it as well.   In this part, Antony talks about his relationship with animals, the video that was the final trigger (or final straw) for these episodes, and then begins to go through the content of the film 'Land of Hope and Glory'. This documentary is known as a UK version of the well-known animal rights/use & abuse film 'Earthlings', which will be covered later in the series.   General series notes We all know it's happening. We all know it's horrific but try to tell ourselves it's not that bad and if we just buy free-range eggs we can square it with our conscience and sleep peacefully. However, research and just a small sample of the copious amounts of truly heartbreaking video footage available makes it clear that it is far, far worse than we think (note- the information in this podcast series is actually quite sanitised compared to other testimonies and footage out there).   Who is to blame? The consumer or the industry? It seems to be a chicken-and-egg situation that could be improved greatly by the average consumer deciding to invest time in discovering what is behind some of the shameful (and shameless) propaganda techniques employed by the food industry. As should be clear in the series, the animals are the biggest victims but not the only ones, which is obvious when you research the state of meat, eggs and dairy that is routinely passed as 'safe to consume'.   To gain a better idea of how and why this nasty business is allowed to happen, a recommended companion piece is the excellent documentary 'The Corporation' and indeed the previous LALO episode on it (see show notes for both). We really owe it to ourselves and the animals who largely live miserable, hellish lives before suffering painful and brutal deaths, to make the effort in the ultimate information age to inform ourselves of the real situation. Unfettered capitalism cannot be allowed to run riot without resistance.   Do I recommend watching the documentaries and other video footage available? I'm going to say yes but please proceed with caution and I would actively discourage viewing them if you feel in a vulnerable or depressive state because they have the power to make you question whether true humanity exists and how we can possibly behave in this kind of way to innocent, defenceless beings (once again, I would also include some humans in this).   As the saying goes, 'once you've seen it, you can't unsee it', and as Ed Winters aka Earthling Ed says at the end of 'Land of Hope And Glory', 'you can never again say you didn't know'. While listening, consider/research the following; normalisation, desensitisation, disassociation, cultural reinforcement, cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, power(lessness), exploitation, deception, isolation, (relative) value of life, respect, compassion, sympathy, mercy, humanity.   We hope you find this of interest Thanks for listening!   Feedback to [email protected]   Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/lifeandlife75   Twitter https://twitter.com/lifeonly75   Support the show at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/antonyrotunno OR https://www.buymeacoffee.com/antonyrotunno   Antony’s website (blog, music, podcasts, life coaching)  https://www.antonyrotunno.com   Antony’s John Lennon podcast https://glassoniononjohnlennon.com   If you are interested in very affordable Life Coaching, or know someone who might be, you can contact Antony on [email protected]   Series links Shaun Monson (maker of ‘Earthlings’) Earthlings film (2005) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XrY2TP0ZyU   20th anniversary interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EGAFYWAwQE   Shaun’s TEDx talk (‘No Separation Based On Form’) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P7eopjN92c   Unity (2015) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4cMqtiTC6k   How do you get people to watch Earthlings (2 approaches) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Zh810bznk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J8pdru1TOc   Ed Winters aka ‘Earthling Ed’ Land of Hope and Glory (the UK ‘Earthlings’, made by Surge in 2017) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvtVkNofcq8&t=2s   Surge’s website https://www.surgeactivism.org/ourmission   Ed’s TED talk about veganism https://www.ted.com/talks/ed_winters_every_argument_against_veganism   An eye-opening speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3u7hXpOm58   Ed’s most recent published books https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58093554-this-is-vegan-propaganda https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/124846667-how-to-argue-with-a-meat-eater   Ed debates (schools) a dairy farmer on the BBC https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/124846667-how-to-argue-with-a-meat-eater   Jack Hancock Jack’s film ‘The Dying Trade’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qb-9Q0YhVA   Jack’s channel https://www.youtube.com/@HumaneHancock   The video that inspired this podcast series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX4_fFjw3Ag   Slaughterhouse worker Tom talks to Jack (very disturbing) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSbhLL2CF9o   Gail Eisnitz Gail’s books https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/220160974-out-of-sight https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31474.Slaughterhouse   Gail on the ‘Our Hen House’ podcast https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep858   Joey Carbstrong Joey’s short film ‘Gaslit’ (what routinely happens to pigs in the UK) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql_L4JD0Fpc   Joey appears on the Jeremy Vine show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya76fJiAWU8   Joey Carbstrong exposes ‘premium turkey’ farming (please tell Jamie Oliver if you see him) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FMxd67zeXE   Hens in gas chambers (watch if you dare) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81NRCt6Z2I   Other links 1 Vegan vs 20 Meat Eaters with Dr Jack Symes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsNBKKRXqI4   Jack talks to Joe Rogan about veganism and hunting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0mB_MStUsk   Chris Delforce’s films ‘Lucent’ and ‘Dominion’ (very graphic!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KArL5YjaL5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko   ‘Un-Australian’ activists shut down the Melbourne central business district, inspired by ‘Dominion’ https://veganrising.org.au/melbourne-city-centre-shut-down-for-animals/   Chris Delforce speaks at the Perth Vegan Expo 2023 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ydDkUNlewU   Humanemyth.org (deconstructing the myths of animal agriculture) https://humanemyth.org/   Roasting the Planet (2025 report on animal agriculture and the climate) https://foe.org/resources/heating-the-planet-big-meat-and-dairys-big-emissions/   Vegan TV ads (very effective!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psdtyJ2aizI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6PMX30PViA   Recommended books ‘Dominion’ and ’ The Jungle’ https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7260.Dominion https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41681.The_Jungle   Simon Amstell’s ‘Carnage’ (2017) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfUSdrSS4ms   Activist and ex-Slaughterhouse worker talks to ‘Vegan Gaze’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4mRK1gQ_m8   The truth about supermarket eggs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KUGRLaz-2s   ‘The Corporation’ film and previous LALO episode about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhixR6h5RSI https://lifeandlifeonly.podbean.com/e/episode-33-the-corporation/   The heartwarming story of Dolly (videos in reverse order on playlist, watch from bottom to top) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6VPBMQoGl0&list=PLKk60gBKlu0aYiHq_mKBw7ZflwCJDLUR-&index=4   The history and ending of public executions https://capitalpunishmentuk.org/the-ending-of-public-executions-in-the-19th-century/   TED talk about the bees disappearing https://www.ted.com/talks/marla_spivak_why_bees_are_disappearing

Acting as a ‘gentle’ introduction to what will be a very challenging upcoming series of episodes, Antony offers some observations and questions on a sprawling range of topics, mostly focused on the harsh realities of this glorious world we inhabit.   How much do we want to know about what really goes on in our name, and what we inadvertently or actively support? What do, or should, we feel about the massive inequalities of power and resources that exist, and the exploitation of powerless humans and even more powerless animals?   This is a fairly ‘safe’ episode but the next ones could be extremely emotive and distressing to some. It must be stressed right off the bat that there is no guilt-tripping in this episode or the subsequent ones   We hope you find this of interest   Feedback to [email protected]   Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/lifeandlife75   Twitter https://twitter.com/lifeonly75   Support the show at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/antonyrotunno OR https://www.buymeacoffee.com/antonyrotunno   Antony’s website (blog, music, podcasts, life coaching)  https://www.antonyrotunno.com   Antony’s John Lennon podcast https://glassoniononjohnlennon.com   If you are interested in very affordable Life Coaching, or know someone who might be, you can contact Antony on [email protected]   episode links Global wealth distribution https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-global-distribution-of-wealth-shown-in-one-pyramid/   Cultural reinforcement explained https://lifestyle.sustainability-directory.com/term/cultural-reinforcement/   Normalising the abnormal https://www.bbc.co.uk/future/article/20240314-how-the-abnormal-gets-normalised-and-what-to-do-about-it   Brainwashing through television https://www.psychmechanics.com/how-tv-influences-your-mind-through/   Happy Egg Co, advert (this is so far from the truth you wouldn’t believe it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20B-4TYEajE   John Pilger- War By Other Means https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoPksGjLb7Y   Dutch historian offers truth bombs at Davos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paaen3b44XY&t=160s   Gabor Mate’s ‘The Myth of Normal’ https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58537332-the-myth-of-normal   ‘The Corporation’ (seminal documentary) https://thecorporation.com/   Douglas Valentine on this podcast (2021) https://lifeandlifeonly.podbean.com/e/episode-14-vietnam-the-cia-and-the-propaganda-war-with-douglas-valentine/   Chris Ryan’s ‘Tangentially Speaking’ podcast https://chrisryan.substack.com/podcast

The encounter between Piers Morgan and Russell Brand in April was, if nothing else, compelling and revealing. Despite their very different personae, they have had strangely similar journeys through some of the darker aspects of media and come out the other side, each now positioning himself as part of ‘alternative media’, whatever that exactly means, while still in contact with the mainstream.   Antony breaks down a quite bizarre conversation, with both protagonists wrestling for control and trying to direct things into the areas they would prepare to discuss. There are a few truth bombs detonated here, which many alt. media commentators seem to have missed as they focus only on a few moments of dead air.   Did Piers and Russell simply expose one another for who & what they are? How sincere are they, or is it all a grift from people well schooled in how to capture attention and often direct it? You decide (the full interview is in the show notes)   Following this, Antony offers a book recommendation, a couple of comments on a mental health shenanigans, and a few details of an amazing athletic achievement in London a few weeks ago   Enjoy!   Feedback to [email protected]   Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/lifeandlife75   Twitter https://twitter.com/lifeonly75   Support the show at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/antonyrotunno OR https://www.buymeacoffee.com/antonyrotunno   Antony’s website (blog, music, podcasts, life coaching)  https://www.antonyrotunno.com   Antony’s John Lennon podcast https://glassoniononjohnlennon.com   If you are interested in very affordable Life Coaching, or know someone who might be, you can contact Antony on [email protected]   episode links Piers vs Russell in full https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv5tXkmEMyo&t=3s   Russell Brand: In Plain Sight (Channel 4 documentary) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR2bHA9lq1I&rco=1   Tom Secker on the allegations and the C4 doc https://www.spyculture.com/clandestime-special-the-russell-brand-allegations/   What would Prime Minister Brand do? (spoof) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKDKt0lh3Y0   George Carlin on who runs the world https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE3sYUJASLY   Chomsky schools Marr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLcpcytUnWU   Bill Cooper predicts 9/11? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yuei07WHb0w   Dave Smith vs Douglas Murray (2025) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj9YcCOioZE   Gabor Mate’s ‘The Myth of Normal’ https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58537332-the-myth-of-normal   Gabor with Russell on damaged leaders https://open.spotify.com/episode/2gTqgKRIwlpk1U0flTlSwx   A show about depression from the LALO archives https://lifeandlifeonly.podbean.com/e/episode-28-an-uplifting-conversation-about-depression/   The 2026 London Marathon in full https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIB3sS1fmS4&t=9709s   Sebastian Sawe’s achievement broken down (madness!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prwDzSGfdm8&t=273s   Club runners attempting to run at sub 2-hour marathon pace https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au5IVqD3Tmw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkBmYQucyMs&t=381s   Mark Lewis humiliates a 9-year-old park runner (not quite) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKkxiLf0flM