Ep 253 - Unaware Empathy

This week Wem and I dig into Brian Sutton-Smith's The Ambiguity of Play, a book Wem has been quietly highlighting half to death for the best part of a year.Sutton-Smith's approach isn't to tell us what play is. It's a literature review of how different disciplines, cultures and eras have explained and justified play, organised into seven "rhetorics": play as progress, fate, power, identity, the imaginary, the self, and frivolity. Each one is less a theory and more an ideology, a story a particular group tells to defend its own view of why play matters.We spend a lot of time on play as progress, the idea that children's play exists to build skills and move them toward adulthood, and pull apart the Montessori line that "play is the work of the child." We talk about what changes when you swap "work" for "labour" or "responsibility," what the Industrial Revolution actually did to childhood as a separate category, and whether competence sits at some percentage below mastery, with play living in the gap above it.From there we get into children's folklore and what Sutton-Smith calls the hidden transcript, the pranks, teases and nonsense that sit underneath the good behaviour adults expect to see. We talk about animal play research and what it does and doesn't tell us about skill building, the difference between micro and macro satisfaction in a game, and a proper tangent about hares, reflexes and unpredictability as a survival strategy.We didn't get to everything. Play as fate, festivals, ritual, and flow state all got parked for a future episode, so if you've got thoughts or questions on any of this, send them in and we'll fold them into part two.The Ambiguity of Play by Brian Sutton-Smith (Harvard University Press, 1997), the book under discussionMaria Montessori, credited with the phrase "play is the work of the child"Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's concept of flow state, which Sutton-Smith critiques in the book and which we park for next timeBob Hughes's work on play cues and play types, referenced for the leaf-falling exampleChildren of the Forest Patreon, where listeners can support the podcast's running costs: patreon.com/TheForestSchoolPodcastGet in touch with questions or thoughts for part two by emailing [email protected], or by leaving a voice message through the Speakpipe link on the Children of the Forest websiteLinks and references mentioned

Generous Authority: The Art of Gathering at Forest SchoolThis episode, I’ve read a book and Wem’s job is to poke holes in it. The book is Priya Parker’s The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why It Matters, and parts of it had me nodding along while other parts felt wildly wrong for forest school. We work through it chapter by chapter, testing each idea against our own sessions and disagreeing where we need to.The first thing that grabbed me was the idea of protecting the opening moment of a gathering instead of spending it on admin. I tried it at a recent CPD day with the Suffolk FSA group, giving out practical information as people arrived so the opening could hold one thing only. Wem rightly points out that for lots of people, knowing where the loos are is part of feeling safe, so the logistics still matter. They just don’t have to come first.We also cover:Asking what’s different after a gathering, instead of why we’re meeting, and the baby shower example from the bookWhy I’ve felt nervous about asking my home ed group why they come, and what that nervousness says about egoBeing honest with young people that this is also a job that pays the billsExcluding with purpose and the risks of over-inclusion, plus Wem’s alternative: not shutting the door, just choosing where you extend the invitationHow venues and physical positioning carry hierarchy with them, from boardrooms to standing over two children asking them to “solve it themselves”The chill host, the hosting vacuum it creates, and what happens when a couple of boisterous voices take over a circleGenerous and ungenerous authority, and a heated disagreement about a bride enforcing her seating planCompeting needs versus needs that can sit side by side, including the perennial “they just talk about Minecraft in the hammock” debateHow differently all of this sits when attendance is optional, mandatory, or somewhere in the awkward middleHosting starting the moment people hear about an event, priming a CPD group through a WhatsApp challenge, and why a session begins the moment the last one endsBuilding in multiple endings so people can leave without guilt, and the small closing ritual we’ve started with staff after the children go homePlus, before all that: can robins see magnetic fields, and are sharks really older than trees?Supporting the podcastThe Forest School Podcast has been running for years now, and it’s free for everyone. We don’t offer bonus content or extras on Patreon, so supporting us is simply a way of helping the show keep going. Contributions from as little as £2 a month cover our running costs and buy the books we read and share with you all, including this one. We’re genuinely grateful to everyone who chooses to, and is able to, chip in.patreon.com/TheForestSchoolPodcast

Declarative language and empathy sit at the heart of how we support behaviour at Children of the Forest. Rather than issuing commands, we describe what we notice and help people see the effect their actions have on those around them. Most of the time, that’s enough to shift things.There have been a few times, with different groups, where I’ve run into the same wall. The approach works best when someone is visibly affected. What about when a child is talking unkindly about a person who isn’t there? Or when the person being discussed is unaware, or simply unbothered? If they’re happy either way, the drive to change behaviour out of care for them disappears.This is a professional discussion in the truest sense. We take one idea and turn it over, look at it from different angles, throw “what if” scenarios at each other and push back where we disagree. We don’t come away with a tidy solution, and that’s deliberate. The value is in extending our own thinking, and hopefully yours.In this episode we explore:Why empathy-based behaviour support depends on a visible impact, and what happens when there isn’t oneGossip, venting and “isn’t that person annoying” as a normal part of human social lifeHow to make room for frustration without endorsing unkindnessEncouraging empathetic conversation without imposing our own will or relying on authorityThe tension between letting group dynamics unfold naturally and our duty of care for the social and emotional wellbeing of everyone in our sessionsWhat being Ofsted registered and holding safeguarding roles asks of us in these momentsSupporting the podcastThe Forest School Podcast has been running for years now, and it’s free for everyone. We don’t offer bonus content or extras on Patreon, so supporting us is simply a way of helping the show keep going. Contributions from as little as £2 a month cover our running costs and buy the books we read and share with you all. We’re genuinely grateful to everyone who chooses to, and is able to, chip in.patreon.com/TheForestSchoolPodcast

Wem and I get into a concept neither of us had a name for until this week: inessential weirdness. It comes from a video by organisational psychologist Pippi Kessler, and once you've got the term you start seeing it everywhere.We open with my Ofsted saga (someone reported me to Ofsted over a cropped screenshot of me singing with a puppet, long story, I passed with zero concerns), then get into the real conversation. Pippi's video looks at activist groups and asks what actually alienates working class people from community spaces. The answer isn't posh venues or fancy food, it's things like unsalted vegan potluck dishes and unexplained rituals that have nothing to do with why people showed up.We spend the rest of the episode pulling that idea apart and applying it to forest school and CPD spaces. Where's the line between weird that's essential to what we do and weird that's just unexamined habit? We talk about whimsical go-arounds, breathwork, sit spots, hierarchy, virtue signalling, agency, and why "can you explain why we're doing this" is the best test for whether something belongs. We also get into the class dimension of all this, how much time, money and prior exposure it takes to feel comfortable with certain kinds of "weird," and why that matters if you actually want your sessions to be open to people outside your existing community.Not an argument against weirdness. We love weird. It's an argument for knowing why you're doing it.Watch the video that started this conversation:Pippi Kessler, "Inessential Weirdness" — https://www.instagram.com/p/DbWVC6rPBaL/More on Pippi's work:https://www.pippikessler.org/

In this episode, Wem and I chatted about feedback from previous episodes, preparing for incoming winter seasons, and whether it's possible to 'procrastinate' at Forest School.www.patreon.com/theforestschoolpodcast to support uswww.children-of-the-forest.com for CPD weekends and more!

This week Wem and I get into something that's been rumbling through forest school Facebook groups all summer: fires, heatwaves, drought, and where individual choice ends and collective responsibility begins.It started with a post about forest school leaders lighting fires during the current UK drought, and the pile of comments underneath it. Some people were arguing it's down to individual practitioners, their training and their risk benefit assessments. Others were pointing at local fire services actively fighting wildfires and asking whether "I've done my RBA" is really enough justification right now. We try to pull that apart properly rather than picking a side.Along the way we talk about the headline game, a tool I use for weighing up risky decisions, and how it applies just as well to cancelling a session as it does to lighting a fire. We get into whether forest school is a community or a collection of individuals doing their own thing, my ongoing argument against the mycelial network metaphor and my pitch for lichen instead, and where the line sits between influencing someone's practice and controlling it.We finish on training and accrediting bodies, what a climate-literate Forest School Leader Level 3 might actually need to cover, and how we might get better at critiquing each other's practice without it turning into a pile-on.Forest School Association, the UK's professional body for Forest School, which runs the Recognised Provider and Endorsed Trainer schemes we talk about: forestschoolassociation.orgThe Met Office Fire Severity Index, the tool fire services use to rate wildfire risk and which prompted our "what should Level 3 training actually cover" tangent: metoffice.gov.uk/services/government/environmental-hazard-resilience/fire-severity-indexThe Beaufort scale, referenced as the wind equivalent of the fire index conversationhttps://www.rmets.org/metmatters/beaufort-wind-scaleLinks and references mentioned

This week I'm joined by Ellie J, known online as Clown Daddy. I first came across her work online and knew straight away that forest school leaders and outdoor educators would get something out of hearing how she thinks about performance, status and play.Ellie trained as an actress at NYU before studying at the famous L'École Internationale de Théâtre Jacques Lecoq in Paris, sometimes called clown school even though it teaches far more than that. She now works as an actress, clown and puppeteer, blending all three into what she calls Clown Daddy, and her current show is a one woman version of Hamlet built entirely around the idea that the rest of the cast simply doesn't turn up.We talk about what happens when you take something as wordy and prescriptive as Shakespeare and hand it over to clowning instead. From there the conversation opens out into the stuff I really wanted to get into: status and hierarchy, the courage it takes to fail in front of a group, and why safety has to come before play, not the other way round. Ellie draws a brilliant distinction between offering someone a single kernel of popcorn and tipping the whole bucket over their head, and it maps almost exactly onto how I think about pushing kids gently rather than shocking them into growth.We also get into the darker side of performance training, the Philippe Gaulier school of "you are a piece of crap on my boot" teaching, and whether that culture still has a place anywhere. Ellie's answer is more generous than I expected. There's a good stretch on consent in performance, on reading a room without ever handing someone a form to fill in, and on why she doesn't record her workshops or shows. And we finish on nature, puppetry, and pine needle confetti, which I am now determined to actually make.Clown Daddy's website: clown-daddy.comClown Daddy Presents (shows, workshops and coaching): clowndaddypresents.comInstagram: @clowndaddypresentsL'École Internationale de Théâtre Jacques Lecoq, Paris (the "Lecoq school" Ellie trained at)Michael Chekhov, actor and teacher referenced for his work on embodiment and imaginationPhilippe Gaulier, the clowning teacher whose famously brutal teaching style we discussEllie J, also known as Clown Daddy, is an actress turned clown and puppeteer based in the Catskills. Trained at NYU Tisch and Lecoq in Paris, her work blends physical comedy, puppetry and vaudevillian slapstick with real emotional depth. Her current show, a solo take on Hamlet, has been touring venues in New York State.Links mentionedAbout Clown Daddy

This week, Wem and I chatted about Boundary setting and picked through Kami Orange's book of boundary scripts and frameworks!

What if the secret to better behaviour support in forest school isn't focusing on the child at all?Lewis and Wem are back for a wide-ranging, woodland-based chat that opens with lime plaster, kilts, and a mosaic pizza oven before diving into some genuinely rich territory: what does it actually mean to take an intraaction-based approach to behaviour? How do you move away from old-school "fix the child" thinking without sliding into permissiveness? And what can a day of interpretive dance, collective poetry, and drama research in Bristol teach us about forest school pedagogy? Plus: squirrels, rabbits round the fire pit, the Southwest FSA Gathering, tenon cutters, and Wem's mysterious single-name workshop listing at the national conference.Chapter Titles and Timestamps:0:00 - Lime plaster, kilts, and a mosaic pizza oven2:00 - Wearing messy, child-made things as a badge of honour4:29 - Following up on Dr Wendy Russell: intraaction and behaviour support6:54 - Old-school behaviour management vs. shifting what you can actually control8:50 - The soup of a person: inner worlds, neuroplasticity, and fixed mindset language14:20 - Persistent offering and not closing doors too early17:53 - Is intraaction-based behaviour support just permissive?20:02 - The communal cooking example: setting people up to succeed22:27 - How loudly does John's sadness exist? On heterarchy and roles26:07 - The Tangled Roots of Creative Research and Social Justice, Bristol33:42 - The Conference of Trees and the value of cross-disciplinary spaces35:49 - Space-setting intentions vs. ground rules: lessons from a research day40:12 - The Southwest FSA Gathering at Hateford Woods41:10 - Tenon cutters, turmeric dyeing, and beatboxing44:29 - National conference plans, and Wem's workshop: Looking at Play Playfully46:45 - Beech overhang, approaching rain, and goodbyeSupportive Elements:Listen back to the episode with Dr Wendy Russell on play, posthumanism, and spatial justice for children, which this conversation directly follows on from. We also reference our previous episode on Nonviolent Communication. Find everything at www.children-of-the-forest.com. Support the show from around £2/month at www.patreon.com/theforestschoolpodcast , and leave us a voice message via the SpeakPipe link on the website.

This one is special. Wem and I got to sit down with Dr Wendy Russell, independent play researcher, senior research fellow at the University of Gloucestershire, and 50 years into a career that started on an adventure playground apprenticeship in the 1970s. I came away from this conversation needing to go for a long walk and think about everything.The first half covers Wendy's work on spatial justice for children, the politics of public space, and what it would actually mean to have a statutory play sufficiency duty in England. We talk about what play sufficiency means in practice, why Wales has led the way, and why politicians keep defaulting to playgrounds when the picture is so much bigger than that.The second half goes deeper, into the relational capability approach to playing and being well that Wendy has developed with Mike Barkley and Ben Tawil of Ludicology. Drawing on Henri Lefebvre's production of space, Karen Barad's concept of intra-action, and the relational turn across academic disciplines, Wendy patiently walked Wem and me through a genuinely paradigm-shifting way of thinking about children, play, agency and wellbeing.By the end, the playwork principles themselves come under scrutiny. The idea of play as "freely chosen and personally directed" gets unpicked in a way that I'm still sitting with.Strap in. Press rewind as many times as you need. See you on the other side.In this episodeHow Wendy moved from adventure playground apprentice to academic researcher across 50 years in play and playworkThe politics of space and what spatial justice for children actually meansWhy falling road casualty statistics for children hide a much more troubling storyPlay sufficiency as a principle, what it is, what Wales has done with it, and why England feels like it's at a genuine policy moment right nowThe tension between play's intrinsic value and what funders and politicians actually want to measureWhy post-occupancy evaluation of housing developments almost never happens, and what Diana Bournat's research tells us when it doesHow repositioning a ball games area changes the way girls move across an entire spaceThe relational capability approach to playing and being well, resources, opportunities, and the conditions that allow children to playThe relational turn across academic disciplines and what it means to move away from the individual, atomised childKaren Barad's concept of intra-action and why "interaction" doesn't quite capture itWhat all of this means for forest school practice, the wind, the branch, the ants, and usFollowing an object across a play session as a practitioner reflective tool (I am absolutely trying this)Why "freely chosen and personally directed" is a useful definition and also, it turns out, a deeply adult-centric oneLinks and resourcesWendy Russell's publications, University of Gloucestershire research repository (search "Wendy Russell Gloucestershire") or via her LinkedIn profile [add link]Playing and Being Well, the Play Wales commissioned research review: playwales.org.ukPlay Wales: playwales.org.ukPlay England: playengland.org.ukLudicology, Mike Barkley and Ben Tawil: ludicology.comUNCRC General Comment 17 on Article 31, children's right to playHenri Lefebvre, The Production of SpaceKaren Barad, concept of intra-actionTim Gill, children's independent mobility and road space design: timgill.netComing up at Children of the ForestPedagogy Immersion Weekend, 15 and 16 August 2026, Devon. If you're already qualified and you want to have the kind of conversation we've just had, this is the place. Tickets and nearby accommodation listings at children-of-the-forest.comLevel 3 Forest School Leader Training, Sunday cohort and intensive holiday block formats. Details and booking on the website.Send us a voice noteGot thoughts on this episode? There's a button on the website where you can record us a voice note directly from your phone. We genuinely love getting them.