The Forest School Podcast

This one is special. Wem and I got to sit down with Dr Wendy Russell, independent play researcher, senior research fellow at the University of Gloucestershire, and 50 years into a career that started on an adventure playground apprenticeship in the 1970s. I came away from this conversation needing to go for a long walk and think about everything.The first half covers Wendy's work on spatial justice for children, the politics of public space, and what it would actually mean to have a statutory play sufficiency duty in England. We talk about what play sufficiency means in practice, why Wales has led the way, and why politicians keep defaulting to playgrounds when the picture is so much bigger than that.The second half goes deeper, into the relational capability approach to playing and being well that Wendy has developed with Mike Barkley and Ben Tawil of Ludicology. Drawing on Henri Lefebvre's production of space, Karen Barad's concept of intra-action, and the relational turn across academic disciplines, Wendy patiently walked Wem and me through a genuinely paradigm-shifting way of thinking about children, play, agency and wellbeing.By the end, the playwork principles themselves come under scrutiny. The idea of play as "freely chosen and personally directed" gets unpicked in a way that I'm still sitting with.Strap in. Press rewind as many times as you need. See you on the other side.In this episodeHow Wendy moved from adventure playground apprentice to academic researcher across 50 years in play and playworkThe politics of space and what spatial justice for children actually meansWhy falling road casualty statistics for children hide a much more troubling storyPlay sufficiency as a principle, what it is, what Wales has done with it, and why England feels like it's at a genuine policy moment right nowThe tension between play's intrinsic value and what funders and politicians actually want to measureWhy post-occupancy evaluation of housing developments almost never happens, and what Diana Bournat's research tells us when it doesHow repositioning a ball games area changes the way girls move across an entire spaceThe relational capability approach to playing and being well, resources, opportunities, and the conditions that allow children to playThe relational turn across academic disciplines and what it means to move away from the individual, atomised childKaren Barad's concept of intra-action and why "interaction" doesn't quite capture itWhat all of this means for forest school practice, the wind, the branch, the ants, and usFollowing an object across a play session as a practitioner reflective tool (I am absolutely trying this)Why "freely chosen and personally directed" is a useful definition and also, it turns out, a deeply adult-centric oneLinks and resourcesWendy Russell's publications, University of Gloucestershire research repository (search "Wendy Russell Gloucestershire") or via her LinkedIn profile [add link]Playing and Being Well, the Play Wales commissioned research review: playwales.org.ukPlay Wales: playwales.org.ukPlay England: playengland.org.ukLudicology, Mike Barkley and Ben Tawil: ludicology.comUNCRC General Comment 17 on Article 31, children's right to playHenri Lefebvre, The Production of SpaceKaren Barad, concept of intra-actionTim Gill, children's independent mobility and road space design: timgill.netComing up at Children of the ForestPedagogy Immersion Weekend, 15 and 16 August 2026, Devon. If you're already qualified and you want to have the kind of conversation we've just had, this is the place. Tickets and nearby accommodation listings at children-of-the-forest.comLevel 3 Forest School Leader Training, Sunday cohort and intensive holiday block formats. Details and booking on the website.Send us a voice noteGot thoughts on this episode? There's a button on the website where you can record us a voice note directly from your phone. We genuinely love getting them.

In this podcast, Nik Elvy, an artist, outdoor educator, and researcher, shares insights on neo-enclosure, folk traditions, and the impact of history on contemporary society. We explored themes of land access, cultural heritage, and social justice, offering a deep dive into how history and folklore shape our present and future.Chapters00:00 Introduction and Personal Anecdotes01:18 Nick Elvie's Background and Recent Work03:01 Understanding Neo-Enclosure: Definitions and Examples04:59 Green Spaces, Parking, and Neo-Enclosure06:48 Community Spaces and Exclusion09:01 Meeting with the Secretary of State on Poverty11:55 Poverty, Epigenetics, and Family History15:56 Historical Land Rights and Enclosure Movements20:02 Folklore, Folk Practices, and Cultural Heritage29:54 The Folk Renaissance and Cultural Appropriation39:57 Community Engagement and Folk Traditions50:05 Contemporary Challenges: Gentrification and Cultural Loss57:58 The Role of Outdoor Education and Land Access01:00:00 Closing Remarks and ResourcesFolklorican on Substack - https://folklorican.substack.com/Folkloric on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/folkloric

Unlocking the Secrets of Soil: An Interview with Ellen Fay from the Sustainable Soils AllianceDiscover the fascinating world beneath our feet with Ellen Fay, a passionate advocate for soil health and biodiversity. In this episode, we delve into what soil really is, why it's vital for our planet, and how we can all contribute to its preservation.Main Topics:The fundamental composition and diversity of soil across different landscapesThe significance of soil as a living ecosystem and its role in climate change mitigationThreats to soil health including erosion, contamination, compaction, and land usePractical ways for schools and individuals to support soil conservationThe importance of policy and research gaps in soil protection effortsKey Insights:Soil is a complex living ecosystem made up of minerals, organic matter, water, air, and a vast diversity of microorganisms and fauna.There are over 750 recognized soil types in the UK, each requiring specific management practices.Soil degradation poses significant threats to biodiversity, water management, and climate regulation.Protecting leaf litter, avoiding soil compaction, and understanding local soil types are critical practices for environmental stewardship.National soil monitoring and policies need nurturing to safeguard soil for future generations.Small everyday actions, such as avoiding peat and engaging kids in soil exploration, can make a substantial impact.Timestamps:00:44 - Introduction to Ellen Fay and her journey into soil advocacy01:33 - The importance of soil knowledge and the role of the Sustainable Soils Alliance05:23 - Simplified explanation of what soil is and its components09:36 - Diversity of soil types across the UK and their formation12:53 - How ancient woodland soils differ and why they are slow to recover15:00 - The debate over leaf litter and soil layers in forests17:31 - The vulnerability of soils and threats from land use and construction21:15 - The impact of soil compaction and how to remediate it24:52 - The ecosystem functions of soil and its importance for water and carbon storage29:52 - Current national initiatives and policies for soil protection32:18 - Practical actions individuals and schools can take to promote soil health40:45 - The potential impacts of using woodchip on pathways and soil protection42:48 - Final advice on making informed decisions to safeguard soilResources & Links:Sustainable Soils AllianceUK Soil Map & DataBook: "Teaming with Microbes" by Jeff LowenfelsResearch on Soil BiodiversityUnderstanding Soil Erosion and ConservationConnect with Ellen Fay:LinkedInTwitterWebsiteAdditional notes:Ellen emphasises the crucial role of education, policy reform, and everyday actions in preserving soil. Engaging children in soil ecology — through activities like wormeries and plant growth experiments — fosters early appreciation and stewardship of this vital resource.

We recorded this one outside in the sunshine, which felt almost unreasonably good. Wem and I had a lot to catch up on and approximately no plan for how to do it. This is what came out.Wem started with a holiday debrief from the Picos de Europa in northern Spain. A campervan, the mountains, storks nesting on telegraph poles, vultures, a scops owl that everyone else in the vicinity mistook for a car alarm, and a brief but passionate argument for why campervans are the best possible holiday format for families who find transitions hard. There is also a detour into the biggest swing in Spain and a childhood memory of Wem's involving shoes, fences, and wet morning grass that I will not spoil.Then I had some news to share. The woodland is growing. I have agreed a price on a flat, bluebell-filled acre right next to the existing site, which takes Children of the Forest from three acres of north-west-facing hill to over four acres, with open canopy, big old oaks, and a completely different feel to everything I have worked in for the last decade. Ten years to the month, as it happens. We talk about what that kind of change feels like when you have been going through a flat patch, and why Looby McNamara's Cultural Emergence design web has come back off the shelf to help me think through what comes next.Wem also gives a PhD update. Coming to the end of year one, with a redrafted research proposal about play at forest school in progress. We have a really honest conversation about what it feels like to step back into being a beginner when you have spent years being experienced in your field, about research ethics and children, who actually benefits from data, and what genuinely participatory research can look like when children are co-creators rather than subjects.And then we both get a bit ranty, in the best way, about AI-generated event posters, what folk art actually is, the difference between collecting skills and collecting outputs, and why a badly made Word document flyer tells you more about an event and the person running it than any AI image ever will. The Lost Folk gets a mention. So does an accordion Wem has apparently acquired. There is also a wren on a stump that derails everything completely for about two minutes and I have no regrets about that.References from this episode: Cultural Emergence by Looby McNamara, The Lost Folk, and the Bulworthy Project rewilding estate, where white storks are now nesting in the UK.

This episode explores the realities of forest school leadership, challenging idealized expectations with authentic experiences. Hosts Wem and Lewis share insights on community building, industry myths, and the importance of authenticity in outdoor education. keywordsforest school, outdoor education, community building, training realities, outdoor leadership, nature-based learning key topicsMyths vs. reality of forest school trainingCommunity building and relationship managementFlexibility and adaptability in outdoor educationChapters00:00 The Long-Tailed Tit's Nest Discovery05:28 Springtime Adventures and Nature's Bounty06:34 The Reality of Forest School Training11:45 Expectations vs. Reality in Outdoor Education19:48 The Challenges of Flexibility in Outdoor Settings25:57 Nature Bypassing and the Business of Outdoor Education31:58 Navigating the Business Side of Forest School34:24 Navigating Code Switching in Education37:25 The Journey of Continuous Learning40:35 Community Holding Beyond the Classroom45:23 Creating a Homely Outdoor Environment50:24 The Punk Spirit of Forest School57:18 The Future of Community-Funded Education59:22 Pod Fart.mp4 resourcesForest School Association - https://forestschoolassociation.org/Nests by Susan Ogilvie - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nests-Susan-Ogilvie/dp/XXXXXXOfsted - https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/ofsted

This episode explores the fascinating world of loose parts in outdoor play, focusing on natural resources like trees, seeds, and bark. Discover criteria for selecting the best loose parts, the importance of seasonality, and creative ideas for outdoor activities.loose parts, outdoor play, natural resources, forest school, foraging, play ideas, nature-based learning key topicsCriteria for selecting loose partsSeasonality and availability of resourcesCreative uses of natural materials in play Guide to Loose Parts in Outdoor PlayHow to Choose the Best Natural Loose Parts for PlayChapters00:00 Echidna's Unique Anatomy03:36 Exploring Loose Parts Play06:35 Criteria for Loose Parts09:32 The Role of Volume and Rarity12:41 Malleability and Versatility in Loose Parts15:35 Sensory Experiences with Loose Parts18:36 Accessibility and Processing of Loose Parts21:33 The Value of Foraging for Loose Parts25:00 The Value of Foraging in Outdoor Play27:38 Functions of Loose Parts in Play30:17 Exploring the Best Loose Parts for Play33:13 The Debate on Non-Native Loose Parts37:14 The Role of Bark and Heavy Loose Parts40:37 Choosing the Right Materials for Den Building42:34 Dreaming Up the Perfect Mud Kitchen48:27 The Ecological Impact of Using Loose Parts51:41 Pod Sheep.mp4 resourcesNo Such Thing As A Fish Podcast - https://www.nosuchthingasafish.com/Scientists unravel the mystery of echidna's bizarre four-headed penis - https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-00145-4Forest School Resources - https://www.forestschool.co.uk/Gum Trees and Bark Resources - https://www.britannica.com/plant/gum-treeConker Game and History - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conkers

Keywordsweather, play, philosophy, achievement, agency, creativity, metrics, education, value capture, qualitative assessmentSummaryIn this conversation, Lewis and Wem explore various themes surrounding play, philosophy, and the impact of metrics on society. They discuss the importance of play in fostering creativity and social connections, the differences between striving and achievement players, and the role of constraints in enhancing creativity. The conversation also delves into the concept of value capture, the influence of technology on perception, and the need for qualitative assessments in education. They conclude by reflecting on the importance of process over product and the future of education in relation to play.TakeawaysMud everywhere!The weather can be deceiving.Books can deeply engage us.Play has philosophical implications.Striving players focus on the process.Constraints can enhance creativity.Value capture influences our perceptions.Metrics can simplify complex ideas.Education often prioritizes quantifiable data.The process of play is more important than the outcome.TitlesExploring the Mud: Weather and PlayThe Philosophy of Play and Learning sound bites"There's mud everywhere!""This book is amazing!""The process is beautiful!"Chapters00:00 The Muddy Reality of Weather08:16 Exploring the Depths of Play and Philosophy11:08 Understanding Player Mindsets: Achievement vs. Striving14:22 Facilitating Play: Agency and Autonomy in Games17:24 The Role of Games in Social Dynamics20:15 Process Beauty in Games: The Art of Overcoming Obstacles23:06 The Purpose vs. Goal in Play: Social Connection Over Competition37:08 The Sensual Act of Information Management40:21 Nature Connection and Purpose43:35 Metrics, Value Capture, and Scoring Systems50:16 The Influence of Technology on Perception56:47 The Four Horsemen of Value Capture01:05:55 The Balance of Quantitative and Qualitative Metrics01:10:41 Exploring Pedagogies and Their Metrics

Keywordstree planting, community engagement, climate action, Avon Needs Trees, sustainable practices, tree care, volunteerism, Echo Wood, environmental awareness, biodiversitySummaryIn this engaging conversation, Wem speaks with Susan Barker from Avon Needs Trees about the importance of community tree planting and care. Susan shares her journey from academia to horticulture, highlighting the mission of Avon Needs Trees in combating climate change through woodland creation. They discuss the significance of community involvement, sustainable practices in tree care, and the emotional aspects of confronting climate change. The conversation also touches on the innovative Echo Wood project, which aims to create a living artwork through tree planting, and the importance of fostering connections with nature.TakeawaysSusan Barker transitioned from academia to horticulture due to stress and a desire to work with nature.Avon Needs Trees focuses on creating permanent woodlands to combat climate change and biodiversity loss.Community engagement is crucial for the success of tree planting initiatives.Sustainable tree care practices are essential for the long-term health of planted trees.Volunteers play a significant role in tree planting and care, fostering a sense of ownership.Echo Wood is a living artwork project that involves planting 365 trees in a circular design.Emotional well-being is supported through active participation in environmental initiatives.The organization emphasizes the importance of local actions in response to global climate issues.Conversations about climate change should balance despair with hope and actionable steps.The survival rate of trees planted by Avon Needs Trees is impressively high, averaging around 93%.Sound bites"The tree care is so meditative.""We want to have those conversations.""It's the little things that citizens do that matter."Chapters00:00 Introduction to Avon Needs Trees and Susan Barker07:39 Susan's Journey from Academia to Horticulture12:46 The Birth of Avon Needs Trees18:49 Land Acquisition and Community Engagement25:09 Tree Planting and Care Practices29:43 The Challenges of Tree Planting30:50 Creating a Community Woodland32:27 Survival Rates and Long-Term Care34:50 Engaging the Community41:44 Introducing Echo Wood49:22 Confronting Climate Change Emotionally01:00:21 Pod Cat.mp4

In this episode, Wem and Lewis explore the philosophical and societal implications of play, discussing how it shapes childhood development and adult behavior. They delve into the idea that play is not merely a preparation for adulthood but a vital part of life itself, influencing social interactions and personal growth. The conversation also touches on the impact of adult perceptions on children's play and the broader cultural narratives surrounding play.Keywordsplay, childhood development, adult behavior, social interactions, personal growth, societal perceptions, cultural narratives, essential play, children, adultsTakeawaysPlay is a vital part of life, not just preparation for adulthood.Adult perceptions can influence children's play experiences.Play shapes social interactions and personal growth.Cultural narratives impact how play is valued.Philosophical discussions on the essence of play are explored.Play is essential for both children and adults.The role of play in childhood development is multifaceted.Play can reflect societal issues and biases.Understanding play requires a holistic view of its impact.Play is a fundamental aspect of human experience.

SummaryFrom Westonbirt inspirations to field guides and plant-hunter epics, Lewis and Gemma pull 13 tree books and ask how reading changes woodland practice. Hear about ships with greenhouses, coppice cycles, charcoal burning, fungal networks, minimalist nursery design, mapping with old OS layers and LiDAR, plus a practitioner’s starter stack for ID and ethnobotany.SponsorsTENTSILESave 10% on tree tents and hammocks with code ForestChildren10 at checkout. Ideal for leaders who want flexible base-camp shelter without ground impact.Chris HollandExplore Chris’s 54-page Plant of the Week guide with songs, stories and QR videos. Use our affiliate link: https://chrisholland.myshopify.com/?ref=ForestSchoolPodcastKey takeawaysBooks are tools. Ideas on the page translate into better planning, richer invitations to play and clearer woodland decisions.History explains today’s woods. War, trade and enclosure shaped plantations and access.When the landscape is the resource you can need fewer add-ons.Mycorrhizal science challenges the clean slate approach to plantations. Diversity can feed young trees.A balanced shelf helps practitioners. Mix narrative inspiration, technical ID, land-use history and local mapping.Chapters00:00 Audio or video and how to follow along02:10 Westonbirt, tree hunters and why one book leads to three more06:40 Plant collectors, ships with greenhouses and species introductions11:20 Remarkable trees and the Douglas fir story15:20 Finding the Mother Tree and what fungal networks show us20:10 Managing woods for play, coppice cycles and charcoal25:40 Enclosure, disafforestation and the Western Rising rabbit hole30:40 Rackham, old OS maps and first steps with LiDAR35:30 Practitioner stack for sessions and ethnobotany40:50 Photos or illustrations for ID, trends in tree writing, the squirrel book wishBooks and resources mentionedThomas Pakenham — The Tree Hunters; Meetings with Remarkable TreesJohn Evelyn — Sylva, or a Discourse of Forest TreesSuzanne Simard — Finding the Mother TreePeter Wohlleben — The Hidden Life of TreesRichard Powers — The OverstoryOliver Rackham — Trees and Woodland in the British Landscape; The History of the CountrysideTristan Gooley — How to Read a TreeRay Mears — British Woodland: How to Explore the Secret World of Our ForestsRoger Phillips — UK wild plants and fungi photographic guidesChris Holland — Plant of the Week collectionHandy tools referencedOld OS map viewer for historical layersLiDAR overlays for spotting ridge and furrow, pits and platformsListen now🎧 Catch the full episode:Spotify: https://shorturl.at/4WdyIYouTube: https://shorturl.at/3qOUsApple: https://shorturl.at/FxfMFRSS: https://shorturl.at/A0kx9Stay in touchQuestions, feedback or collaboration: [email protected] hello on Instagram and Facebook. Tell us your favourite tree book or share a shelf photo and tag the show so we can reshare.SupportMore episodes and resources: theforestschoolpodcast.comBack the show from £2 a month: patreon.com/theforestschoolpodcastHashtags#ForestSchool #OutdoorEducation #NaturePlay #ReflectivePractice #TreeBooks