304. Centering the Church on Jesus, with Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch

Tim Alberta, journalist, author, and frequent cable news commentator, explores the complex relationship between political power and American evangelicalism. In this timely conversation, we discuss what happens when the church gets too cozy with empire, how pastors can navigate politically divided congregations, and what Jesus actually has to say about power. Essential listening for anyone trying to lead faithfully in polarized times.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Mark Scandrette explores Jesus' most countercultural teaching, the Beatitudes, and what it means for how we lead. This conversation digs into the upside-down kingdom values of mourning, meekness, mercy, and peacemaking, and asks what spiritual leadership looks like when it's rooted in these ancient rhythms. Mark and I became friends after this interview when we walked the Camino de Santiago together in 2022.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Jay Bakker, son of televangelists Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, shares his journey from growing up in the spotlight to watching his father go to prison - and how those experiences shaped his understanding of grace. In this conversation, Jay talks about judgment, unconditional love, and what it means to extend grace even to enemies. A deeply personal and challenging conversation about what grace actually looks like in practice.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

The most-downloaded episode in the history of this podcast. Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch, two of the most influential voices in missional church thinking, discuss what it means to recalibrate everything around Jesus in a post-Christendom world. A powerful conversation about reimagining church, mission, and what it means to follow Jesus in contemporary culture.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

One of our earliest conversations, recorded in 2018 with Tod Bolsinger about his groundbreaking book Canoeing the Mountains. Tod explores what it means to lead in uncharted territory, the difference between technical and adaptive challenges, and how leaders can navigate change when the old maps no longer work. This conversation helped shape the direction of this podcast and remains essential listening for anyone leading through uncertainty.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

In this special episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, Markus Watson reflects on the incredible six-and-a-half-year journey of the podcast, shares the story of its beginnings, and reveals exciting news about its next chapter. With a partnership ending and fresh possibilities ahead, Markus opens up about his plans for a creative sabbatical, new formats, and future topics that matter to church leaders today. Plus, he invites listeners to help shape the show's direction by joining a Zoom call and taking a quick survey.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus Watson celebrates the rewarding journey of hosting the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast for six and a half years.The podcast exists to help leaders cultivate a healthy inner life that informs fruitful leadership.Markus Watson announces a solo episode—no guests, no music—focused on what's next for the show.The podcast will continue after the end of its partnership with Fuller Seminary’s Church Leadership Institute.Markus Watson highlights how the partnership boosted credibility and helped secure high-profile guests.Adaptive leadership has been a key theme valued by church leaders.Markus Watson anticipates experimenting with new topics and formats, including panel discussions.The podcast will expand to address leadership challenges such as polarization, church hurt, and financial anxiety.Markus Watson reiterates the ongoing mission of supporting leaders through spiritual formation.Sabbath, rest, and healthy practices remain central themes to the content.The podcast will feature a creative sabbatical, with new episodes returning in April.Encore episodes will keep the feed active during the sabbatical. Listeners are invited to fill out a short survey to influence future direction.Markus Watson encourages participation in an upcoming Zoom call for listener feedback and stories.The podcast will remain practical, addressing real challenges facing ministry leaders.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:5-Question Surveywww.markuswatson.com/surveyJoin the Zoom call on January 29, [email protected] mentioned:Podcasting For DummiesSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

This is it—the final episode of our partnership with the Church Leadership Institute. It's hard to believe how quickly these years have flown by.In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson look back on what this collaboration has meant, what we've accomplished together, and where the road leads from here.THIS EPSODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus Watson reflects on starting the podcast during a time of personal transition and describes how the partnership with the Church Leadership Institute began in a providential way.Markus Watson shares that joining the Church Leadership Institute’s podcast team was not an answer to a specific prayer, but an unexpected opportunity that resonated with his calling.Tod Bolsinger explains that the Church Leadership Institute started as a place for researching adaptive change while directly working with leaders and practitioners.Leaders benefit most from research that connects theory with real-life contexts, especially in smaller church settings.Churches and leaders need resources that are accessible to smaller congregations, not just large organizations.Tod Bolsinger emphasizes that making adaptive change in smaller churches can feel as difficult as changing one’s family of origin.Experimentation, contextual cohorts, and digital platforms proved effective for spreading adaptive leadership resources across diverse church settings.Delivering effective leadership development depends on understanding the specific context of each congregation.You cannot develop adaptive capacity simply by consuming information; leaders must actively practice adaptive work.Tod Bolsinger stresses that you cannot outwork a changing world, highlighting the importance of discernment and adaptability rather than relying solely on hard work.Crisis situations, like the pandemic, require leaders to learn new ways of thinking, rather than applying old solutions to new challenges.Significant changes, such as the rise of telecommuting, political shifts, and technological advances, have rapidly altered the leadership landscape.Tod Bolsinger notes that the main challenge now is developing adaptive capacity in entire congregations, not just among pastors or staff.Developing adaptive discipleship within a congregation requires a shift from programmatic solutions to cultivating a transformative organizational culture.Markus Watson explores experimenting with new podcast formats and continuing conversations with leaders to support spiritual life and leadership growth.Tod Bolsinger charges leaders to embrace a posture of curiosity, prioritizing learning and question-asking over being the “learned expert.”RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Church Leadership InstituteRelated episodes:100. The Spiritual Life of a Leader, with Tod Bolsinger116. Power, Vulnerability, Rest, with Tod Bolsinger144. Is the Church Failing to Make Disciples? with Tod BolsingerSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

What does it really mean to create a “safe space” for young people in our churches—not just a place free from harm, but a place where their deepest questions and unique experiences are genuinely welcomed?In this episode, Tanita Tualla Maddox, National Director for Generational Impact for Young Life and author of What Gen Z Really Wants to Know About God, helps us understand Gen Z’s core questions about faith, the meaning of safety and trust, and how churches and ministry leaders can communicate and lead adaptively in today’s cultural landscape.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Tanita Tualla Maddox describes Gen Z as digital natives who blend the physical and digital worlds, which shapes their outlook and identity.Stereotypes about Gen Z often paint them as weak, fragile, over-emotional, and self-centered.Tanita Tualla Maddox emphasizes that Gen Z has faced unique challenges such as growing up with social media, experiencing school shootings and lockdown drills, and living through a global pandemic.Social media exposes Gen Z to global comparison, leading many to wrestle with feelings of not being enough.The words older generations use about Gen Z—often negative—shape Gen Z's perception that they are disliked and not valued as they are.Tanita Tualla Maddox points out that generational miscommunication happens even when the same words are used, because their meanings shift between groups.Safety means more than just the absence of physical danger for Gen Z; it also encompasses emotional, psychological, and even comfort-based dimensions.Defining what makes a space or relationship "safe" often varies from person to person within Gen Z.Tanita Tualla Maddox suggests that churches should directly ask young people what makes them feel welcome and safe, rather than make assumptions.Spiritual leaders often answer questions that Gen Z is not asking, missing opportunities to address their actual concerns.The incarnation of Jesus can help Gen Z trust God, because it shows he experienced abandonment, public shame, betrayal, and other relatable human struggles.Trust for Gen Z is not automatically given to authority figures or institutions—they expect trust to be earned and proven.Safety is seen as a right by many in Gen Z, and the loss of safety can feel like a violation of that right.Truth has become highly individualized for Gen Z, with "my truth" and "speak your truth" surfacing as common phrases; this complicates their relationship to universal or absolute truths.Tanita Tualla Maddox encourages church leaders to treat generational differences as cross-cultural experiences, approaching Gen Z with curiosity, humility, and a willingness to ask questions and learn.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Tanita Tualla Maddoxtanitamaddox.comBooks mentioned:What Gen Z Really Wants to Know About God, by Tanita Tualla MaddoxThe Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, by C.S. LewisRelated episodes:35. God Wants His Kids Back, with Nate Landis110. Identity, Purpose, and Belonging, with Kara PowellSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Discover why real leadership is never a solo journey—and how embracing your own vulnerability can unlock the supportive relationships you need to thrive through change.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss Tod's own quote in Ep. 283, Disorientation and Spiritual Leadership:“The vulnerability of leadership needs the security of many relationships.” THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders thrive when they work alongside partners, mentors, and friends.Effective change leadership requires collaboration, not isolation.Leaders experience growth by acknowledging and praying through their personal needs.Mentoring relationships and supportive community strengthen a leader’s resilience.Authentic vulnerability in leadership attracts the right relationships for transformation.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Do you ever feel like you’re alone in your leadership?  Why is that? Why do so many church leaders feel isolated—and how did we come to believe that ministry is something we’re supposed to do alone?In this episode, E.K. Strawser, author of You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, unpacks what it means to move from solo leadership to a model shaped by shared responsibility and the APEST framework—apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher—so that not only our churches, but our communities, can flourish.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus Watson invites discussion about the standard view of leadership and prompts E.K. Strawser to unpack its problems and what's missing.Church members often expect leaders to command control, draw crowds, or have significant contributions, which influences congregational dynamics.E.K. Strawser argues that modern church leadership borrows too heavily from secular business models rather than biblical principles of shared leadership.Traditional notions of leadership in churches leave congregations disempowered, dependent, or deprived when power is centered on a single leader.If a leader does not share leadership, the church risks losing members' sense of identity and purpose.E.K. Strawser emphasizes that effective leaders must be disciples of Jesus first, prioritizing spiritual maturity over skill sets.Leaders should embody humility, honor, hospitality, and hopefulness as markers of mature church leadership.Markus Watson notes that churches often select leaders for functional skills rather than spiritual maturity, highlighting a common problem in leadership development.Christian hospitality means making space for others, not just providing comfort or amenities.E.K. Strawser teaches congregations to celebrate and honor each other to counteract envy and encourage spiritual growth.Leaders foster environments where others can learn, heal, experience hospitality, seek justice, and be sent out for ministry.Markus Watson asks E.K. Strawser to explain the APEST framework and its practical value for sharing leadership in churches.All five APEST gifts—apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher—should be represented in shared leadership structures at every level of church leadership.Implementing shared leadership and equipping environments requires intentional structure and ongoing relational attention.Change in church leadership provokes grief and resistance, so leaders must create environments that acknowledge loss, facilitate grieving, and cast clear vision.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:E.K. Strawser:www.ekstrawser.comBooks mentioned:You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, by E.K. StrawserRelated episodes:185. From Sunday Services to Real Transformation, with E.K. Strawser191. Thriving Church Leadership in Uncertain Times, with Heather James, Matt Lake, and Jonny Weir212: Unlearning Old Paradigms for Kingdom Leadership, with Terry WallingSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.