305. What Grace Looks Like After Everything Falls Apart, with Jay Bakker

Mark Scandrette has spent over twenty years wrestling with a hard realization: knowing a lot about God doesn't mean you're good at following Jesus. Dave Kludt spent fifteen years in pastoral ministry learning that everything, down to how you arrange the chairs in a room, forms people. Together they co-teach a Doctor of Ministry cohort at Fuller Seminary built around two words: integral and embodied. Mark is the founder of Reimagine and author of Practicing the Way of Jesus and The Ninefold Path of Jesus, and a longtime friend of the podcast (he first joined us back on episode 112). Dave is the president of Reimagine's board, a former pastor of 15 years, and Mark's partner in this new cohort, a Substack, and an upcoming podcast.IN THIS CONVERSATION:Why "getting more information" doesn't lead to transformation, and what doesWhat Dave means by an "integral" approach to formation, and why it starts with facing the world's fractures honestlyWhat Mark means by "embodied" formation, and the Learning Lab model Reimagine uses to teach by doingWhy the leader of a Learning Lab has to be a participant, not just an expertMoving from a "closed fist" to an "open hand" posture toward your next stepWhy discomfort with failure gets in the way of formation in many churchesHow Mark and Dave use the Enneagram as a formation tool, not a personality quizThe "formation edges" Mark and Dave are each working on right nowMark and Dave's hopes for the Fuller Doctor of Ministry cohort on integral and embodied formationRELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:markscandrette.com — Mark's websitereimagine.org — Mark and Dave's organizationFuller Seminary's Doctor of Ministry programBooks mentioned:Practicing the Way of Jesus, by Mark ScandretteThe Ninefold Path of Jesus, by Mark ScandretteRELATED EPISODES:The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark ScandretteThe Spiritual Life of a Leader, with Tod BolsingerThe Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim WilderSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Jeff Crosby reads about 75 books a year. But in this conversation—his third appearance on the podcast—he's quick to say the number isn't the point. What matters is what reading does to you, including what he calls being "unselfed." Jeff Crosby is a 24-year veteran of InterVarsity Press, current executive with ECPA, and author of World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:jeffreycrosby.net — Jeff's website, including his books and information on his forthcoming book on musicECPA — Evangelical Christian Publishers Association, where Jeff servesBooks mentioned:World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading, by Jeff CrosbyEvery Moment Holy, Vol. I, by Douglas Kaine McKelveyA Diary of Private Prayer, by John BaillieReading While Black, by Esau McCaulleyThe Cross and the Lynching Tree, by James H. ConeJesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes, by Kenneth E. BaileyPlainsong, by Kent HarufEventide, by Kent HarufBenediction, by Kent HarufMere Christianity, by C.S. LewisThe Ragamuffin Gospel, by Brennan ManningA Touch of Wonder, by Arthur GordonRELATED EPISODES:Episode 194: Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff CrosbyEpisode 96: Crossing Leadership Thresholds, with Jeff CrosbySend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Administration is more than paperwork—it’s a spiritual calling. Jana Holiday, author of Taking Good Care: Administration for Christian Formation, explores how stewardship, imagination, and hospitable leadership can transform administration into a ministry of care and Christian formation.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jana Holiday explains that she loves administration because it involves solving problems and collaborating to move people, resources, and projects toward fulfilling a mission.Administration centers on stewardship—taking good care of people, resources, and projects.Jana Holiday connects the idea of stewardship to Genesis 1, positioning it as an expression of imago Dei and a pursuit of good work and good results.Effective administration requires reflection, intentionality, and love.Jana Holiday cautions against letting the pursuit of productivity override empathy and care in leadership.Administration works best when it is open-handed and welcoming, rather than controlling and restrictive.Administrators must choose between stewardship—an open invitation—and dominion, which relies on control.Jana Holiday warns that exercising dominion in administration risks missing out on the collective wisdom and creativity of a group.Administrative work is not unspiritual; all good work—including administration—can be ministry and part of Christian formation.Jana Holiday introduces three categories related to work: jobs, callings, and invitations, suggesting that many administrative roles may function as invitations from God more than callings.Approaching administrative work as an invitation can lead to a more purposeful and responsive engagement with people and resources.Markus Watson and Jana Holiday discuss the importance of boundaries for administrators and the need for leaders to help protect staff from being overloaded by excessive demands.Over-functioning and under-functioning both erode trust in organizational settings.Jana Holiday suggests administrators regularly audit their responsibilities and seek feedback from colleagues to maintain a healthy balance in their roles.Hospitable administration involves creating belonging and valuing people as part of stewardship, not just completing tasks.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Gordon-Conwell Theological SeminaryIDEO (Design & Innovation Firm)Books mentioned:Taking Good Care, by Jana HollidayDesigning Your Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave EvansDesigning Your Work Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave EvansThe Art of Innovation, by Tom KelleyRELATED EPISODE'S:Healing Workplace Wounds, with Meryl HerrTrust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership, with Mike BonemPursuing Your Purpose, with Nicholas PearceSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

What happens when you visit 33 different churches in a year? Richard Riccardi, author of The Wandering Worshipper, shares his journey of exploring worship spaces, the surprising power of radical hospitality, and how authentic community can transform even the most unexpected visitor.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Richard Riccardi describes walking into 33 places of worship and discovering that churches are gardeners of fruitful communities.Churches serve as places where everyone can belong, and everyone needs a place to belong.Richard Riccardi intentionally attended a wide variety of worship services, including Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Baha’i gatherings.A welcoming environment across different places of worship made a strong positive impression, regardless of faith tradition.Richard Riccardi recounts a rare instance where a welcome felt too aggressive, serving as a caution about coming on too strong with visitors.Church members often believe their enthusiastic friendliness is always positive, but it can sometimes overwhelm newcomers.Experiences of deep hospitality and acceptance can transcend racial, cultural, and religious boundaries.Richard Riccardi explains that styles of worship that encourage relationship and participation engaged him more than rigid, predictable rituals.A diversity of approaches is needed in church messaging and environment to reach both newcomers and longtime members.Markus Watson and Richard Riccardi discuss the importance of “sacred listening” and tailoring responses to visitors’ backgrounds and spiritual needs.Being sensitive about criticizing other faiths or denominations can foster genuine community and dialogue.Authentic community in churches is demonstrated when people support each other in times of need, as seen in the care Richard Riccardi’s mother received near the end of her life.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINK:Richard RiccardiWebsite - https://thewanderingworshiper.com/Books mentioned:The Wandering Worshipper, by Richard RiccardiBeyond Thingification, by Markus WatsonRelated episodes:167. Called to Each Other218. Trust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership222. Building a Multi-Inclusive ChurchSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Ministry can stir up all kinds of feelings, especially when we’re dealing with conflict, with grief, with change. And the better we understand what’s happening beneath the surface, the better we can lead ourselves—and our people—more thoughtfully and more effectively.In this episode, I’m speaking with Dr. Audrey Davidheiser, a licensed psychologist and the author of Grieving Wholeheartedly. Audrey helps us understand something called Internal Family Systems—IFS—a powerful way of thinking about our inner world and all those “parts” of us that can get in the way of effective leadership.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Audrey Davidheiser explains what drew her to Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy.Internal Family Systems is a psychological model that views people as having multiple internal "parts."Parts of yourself often express themselves in day-to-day decisions, sometimes even in conflict with each other.Markus Watson clarifies that having "parts" is different from dissociative identity disorder or multiple personalities.Audrey Davidheiser explains the difference between parts in IFS and the rigid, unaware system found in Dissociative Identity Disorder.Internal Family Systems builds on the foundation of family systems theory, adapting it to the internal world.Inside everyone are parts that take on different roles, often formed in response to significant experiences, such as trauma or relational wounds.Markus Watson illustrates the concept with the example of feeling different internal responses to everyday situations like going to a late-night movie.Every person has both helpful and challenging internal parts, such as critics, achievers, or comfort-seekers, and these parts influence behavior.Audrey Davidheiser introduces three types of parts in IFS: exiles (hurt parts), managers (protective parts), and firefighters (distracting/soothing parts).Parts are not inherently bad; even when their actions are destructive, they are typically trying to protect us or relieve pain.Markus Watson inquires about the relationship between sin and IFS, prompting Audrey Davidheiser to articulate how parts can miss the mark despite good intentions.Pastors can benefit from understanding their own internal parts, especially when reacting to challenging questions or situations in ministry.Audrey Davidheiser suggests the practice of being "unblended"—letting the true Self, rather than an emotional part, lead when responding to others.Leaders who operate from their "Self" (instead of from a part) can foster healthier responses and guide their communities through change with greater empathy and wisdom.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Audrey DavidheiserAim For Breakthrough websiteBooks mentioned:Grieving Wholeheartedly, by Audrey DavidheiserRelated Episodes:262: From Fired to Flourishing, with Chuck DeGroat254: Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion206: The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon HuckinsSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Effective youth ministry isn’t about changing more programs—it’s about deep listening and real relationships. Josh Packard, sociologist and researcher, explores how sacred listening transforms faith formation, the unique needs of Gen Z and Gen Alpha, and why scaling relational ministry requires curiosity and humility.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus Watson asks Josh Packard to share the origins and findings of his research on relational ministry.Josh Packard explains that listening itself plays a formative role in faith development, not just as a trust-building step.Relational ministry requires new strategies for scalability, especially with large groups of young people.Josh Packard points out that ministry processes often lag behind the changing needs and contexts of young people.Churches should critically examine whether their programs and timelines match the lives and developmental journeys of today’s youth.Josh Packard observes that artificial time containers like confirmation years may not accommodate the real-life disruptions and traumas kids experience.Adapting ministry to stages and individualized journeys, rather than rigid timelines, better serves young people.Josh Packard emphasizes that trust in institutions has shifted toward trust rooted in personal, listening-based relationships.Practicing sacred listening involves a theological commitment to seeing others as made in the image of God (imago dei).Effective listening involves aligning communication with the needs and backgrounds of those being heard, rather than using a one-size-fits-all model.Recognizing patterns in conversations helps ministry leaders know whom to focus on, making it possible to scale relational ministry.Josh Packard recommends using tools to systematize relational information and connect young people to multiple trusted adults.A network of trusted adults (ideally five per young person) significantly boosts the impact of any ministry.Humility and genuine curiosity, not judgment or presumption, are essential for adults seeking to connect with and serve youth.Loneliness is now most acute among young people, and ministry approaches need to shift from large events to individualized relationship-building to overcome this challenge.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Future of Faith Sacred Listening StudyBooks mentioned:Faithful Futures, by Josh PackardRelated Episodes:Identity, Belonging, Purpose, with Kara PowellHow Churches Can Engage and Support Gen Z, with Tanita Tualla MaddoxSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Pastoral ministry is both a sacred joy and a heavy burden. Kurt Fredrickson, Associate Dean for Professional Doctoral Programs at Fuller Seminary, discusses the struggles pastors face, how church leadership is shifting in a changing culture, and why creating life-giving congregational environments matters more than ever.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus Watson introduces the episode by referencing the book That Their Work Will Be a Joy and asks why it needed to exist.Kurt Fredrickson describes how the book originated from pastors resonating deeply with the challenges and joys of ministry in a seminary lunch discussion.Ministry is tough and filled with conflicts on the outside and fears within, as reflected in Paul’s writings.Despite challenges, pastors find joy in being gripped by God and walking with people through both the best and hardest moments of life.Markus Watson shares his personal experience of moving through seasons of fear and joy in ministry, appreciating moments of goodness and kindness in congregational life.Ministry leaders enter sacred spaces in people’s lives, highlighting the privilege of bringing gospel and good news during life’s milestones and struggles.The Doctor of Ministry program provides “fire for ministry” and “oxygen for your soul,” supporting pastors with new skills and spiritual renewal.The Doctor of Global Leadership degree equips marketplace leaders and executives to integrate faith with work by tackling practical ministry challenges in their workplace.Pastors face unique challenges, including constant 24/7 expectations from both themselves and their congregations, often making it difficult to “take off the uniform.”Kurt Fredrickson shares an honest story of vulnerability with another pastor, revealing the value of mutual support and truthful conversations.Cohort-based models in Doctor of Ministry programs foster deep relationships and provide safe spaces for pastors to remove their masks and find encouragement.Ministry flows from the inside out, and leaders must be in a healthy place themselves to minister well and avoid causing harm within congregational cultures.Every congregation possesses its own culture, shaped by leaders, and has the potential to be either kind and life-giving or toxic and harmful.Being vulnerable as a pastoral leader is necessary, but requires discernment, as oversharing can sometimes lead to painful repercussions.Kurt Fredrickson emphasizes that pastors ultimately seek internal growth and love within their congregations, and asks congregants to be kind as pastors strive to embody what they teach.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Kurt Fredrickson – [email protected] Doctor of Ministry ProgramFuller Doctor of Global Leadership ProgramBooks mentioned:That Their Work Will Be a Joy, by Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron LeeRelated episodes:103. Willingness to Adapt: The Church After Covid, with Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee109. Leadership as Learning, Part 2: Coaches and Cohorts, with Tod Bolsinger113. Flourishing Leadership, with Andy CrouchSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Tim Alberta, journalist, author, and frequent cable news commentator, explores the complex relationship between political power and American evangelicalism. In this timely conversation, we discuss what happens when the church gets too cozy with empire, how pastors can navigate politically divided congregations, and what Jesus actually has to say about power. Essential listening for anyone trying to lead faithfully in polarized times.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Mark Scandrette explores Jesus' most countercultural teaching, the Beatitudes, and what it means for how we lead. This conversation digs into the upside-down kingdom values of mourning, meekness, mercy, and peacemaking, and asks what spiritual leadership looks like when it's rooted in these ancient rhythms. Mark and I became friends after this interview when we walked the Camino de Santiago together in 2022.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Jay Bakker, son of televangelists Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, shares his journey from growing up in the spotlight to watching his father go to prison - and how those experiences shaped his understanding of grace. In this conversation, Jay talks about judgment, unconditional love, and what it means to extend grace even to enemies. A deeply personal and challenging conversation about what grace actually looks like in practice.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.