357: How Much of Wine's Taste Is Shaped By Psychology? Dr. Alex Maltman Reveals The Surprising Evidence

How does the biggest misconception about Spanish wine make it a hidden gem for wine lovers? How did Spain’s civil war and period of dictatorship delay the growth of its wine culture? What makes the vineyards of Priorat challenging to walk and unforgettable to visit? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Sarah Jane Evans, author of the terrific new book The Wines of Central and Southern Spain: From Catalunya to Cadiz. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks.   Giveaway Two of you are going to win a copy of Sarah Jane Evans' wonderful new book, The Wines of Central and Southern Spain: From Catalunya to Cadiz. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights How did the memory of her parents bottling wine at home influence Sarah Jane’s perception of wine? What is the Oxford vs. Cambridge University Varsity Blind Wine-Tasting Match? What was Sarah Jane’s experience as a judge at wine competitions in Japan? What’s unique about Japan’s peaches and why does Sarah Jane recommend them as a “can’t miss” on a trip to Japan? Why was Sarah Jane initially drawn to Spanish wine? What is the Officer’s Cross of the Royal Order of Isabella the Catholic and why was Sarah Jane awarded this honour? Why did Sarah Jane choose to write her Master of Wine dissertation on the alchemists of Sherry? What is the significance of Sarah Jane’s choice to use first names when writing about winemakers? What are the hallmark characteristics of Spanish orange wines? Where are Spain and its territories located in Europe? What’s the biggest misconception about Spanish wine? Why does Sarah Jane consider Spain the most exciting country in Europe for wine? How are winemakers reviving old vineyards in Spain? What makes Casa Castillo’s Monastrell wines unique?   Key Takeaways Unfortunately, people think of Spanish wine as cheap and cheerful. That image is hard to to get rid of. So when you look at a fine wine list, if you're in a Michelin-starred restaurant, you will start off with maybe Champagne, and then you'll have France, and then you'll get into Italy, and then, if you're lucky, Spain will come next. The good thing about that is that it makes very top wine in Spain, still very good value. Since Spain had a civil war just before the Second World War, and after that, they had a fascist dictatorship that went on till the late 1970s, they didn't join Europe until the 1980s. So during that time of the dictatorship, they were told what to farm, where to farm, how to farm it. So there was no priority about fostering a wonderful wine culture. that's only really coming in the last 40 years. Spain has just been a little bit behind, but it has to escape, because you can't survive on paying growers next to nothing, making very cheap wines.   About Sarah Jane Evans Sarah Jane is an award-winning writer. She travels widely as an educator and consultant, and is a Contributing Editor to Decanter. Her books include The Wines of Central and Southern Spain, The Wines of Northern Spain, Seville, Chocolate Unwrapped, and also the entries on Spain and Sherry for the annual Hugh Johnson Pocket Wine Guide. Sarah Jane received the Royal Order of Isabella the Catholic awarded by the King of Spain for her work for Spain. Beyond Spain, her special interests in wine are Greece, South America and the great fortified and sweet wines of the world.     To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/358.

How much of what we perceive about the taste of wine is actually shaped by psychology? Are vineyard soils important contributors to a wine’s tasting profile? Why do so many wine producers highlight their soils as a unique factor that makes their wines stand out? Where do the “minerals” we taste in wine originate from? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Dr. Alex Maltman, author of the new book Taste the Limestone, Smell the Slate: A Geologist Wanders Through the World of Wine. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Two of you are going to win a copy of Alex Maltman's terrific book, Taste the Limestone, Smell the Slate. A Geologist Wanders Through the World of Wine. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights What did a Dutch research study show about identifying soil type through blind tasting? Is there any geological evidence to support volcanic soils imparting certain characteristics to wine? Why can vines access nutrients from soil but not larger rock layers? Should we consider the root stocks of vines and the type of yeast used for fermentation when analyzing the taste profile of a wine? How does consumer psychology influence our perception of the taste of wine? Which aspects of geology and wine is Alex planning to write about in the future? If Alex could share a bottle of wine with anyone outside the wine world, who would that be?   Key Takeaways How much of what we perceive about the taste of wine is actually shaped by psychology?  It's the psychology that people think, “Oh, heavy bottle. This must be a classy wine.” For many wine drinkers, what the wine expert says will override the more academic factors, rather like a clinician saying, take these tablets, you'll be better, if the wine authority says you're going to taste vanilla. Yeah, I'm getting vanilla. Are vineyard soils important contributors to a wine’s tasting profile? In one experiment, several growers planted four different grape varieties, each in different soils, and then tried to grow the grapes, vinify the grapes uniformly, and then sent the finished wines off to a completely independent expert tasting panel. The panelists were only able to group the wines according to variety. Soils didn't come through at all.   For wine producers, soil is one of the only factors that are difficult to replicate, so they're going to say their soil is special. It's a great selling point. When some wine commentators are saying they're tasting minerals from the soil because it's been taken up by the vine root and transmitted through to the wine. Well, no, that doesn't happen like that. But in any case, any nutrients that were taken up by the vine root and did make it all the way through to the finished wine, almost certainly, in practice, will have originated in the humus.   About Dr. Alex Maltman Alex Maltman is Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences at Aberystwyth University, in Wales, U.K. Alongside a decorated career in university teaching and research, Alex has for fifty years grown vines and made wine at his home. And through this, perhaps inevitably, he became interested in vineyard geology and its fashionable but poorly understood relationship with wine. This led to numerous publications in both the popular press and academic journals. Alex is the author of the acclaimed Vineyards, Rocks, and Soils: A Wine Lover’s Guide to Geology and newly released Taste the Limestone, Smell the Slate. A Geologist Wanders Through the World of Wine.     To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/357.

Why is geology essential for vineyard management but overrated when it comes to wine taste? Do soils get too much credit for wine flavour, when invisible factors might be the real drivers? What does “minerality” in wine really mean? Rock, nutrient, or just taste perception? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Alex Maltman, author of the terrific new book, Taste the Limestone, Smell the Slate. A Geologist Wanders Through the World of Wine. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Two of you are going to win a copy of Alex Maltman's terrific book, Taste the Limestone, Smell the Slate. A Geologist Wanders Through the World of Wine. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights How did a good teacher spark Alex’s lifelong fascination with geology? What initially attracted Alex to wine and how did his curiosity evolve over the past 50 years? How did Alex’s background in geology support his career as a wine writer? In what ways does Alex’s first book, Vineyards, Rocks and Soils, differ from his new book, Taste the Limestone, Smell the Slate? Why does Alex believe that the influence of geology on wine is overstated in contrast to its influence on beer? What impact did geology have on how beer first developed? How do geological minerals, nutrient minerals, and the taste perception of minerality differ? What is the relevance of geological age to the growing vine in the bedrock? Does knowing the soil type of the vineyard tell us anything about the wine’s characteristics? Why do so many wine drinkers and writers love to talk about geology? How has the concept of terroir been misunderstood and oversimplified? Why is it important to distinguish between the importance of geology for vineyard management versus its influence on the taste of wine in the glass?   Key Takeaways Am I tasting the limestone, smelling the slate? No, you can't. The grower needs to know about his soil. The geology will influence so many things in the vineyard, so the grower may well want to dig soil pits and see what the roots are doing to inform his vineyard management. But this is not the same thing as the flavor that develops in fermentation through to our wine glass. People look at, say, a hill slope with vines on it, and year after year, the wines from here always taste different to the wines from there. What's different? Oh, it's the soil. But at the same time, there's a whole host of invisible factors operating on that hill slope that we know these factors influence how grapes ripen and how the flavor precursors in the grape develop, which are going to go on to in the fermentation make the wine taste like it does. I tend to use the word geological mineral for those compounds that are making half of the vineyard soil and that come together to make rocks. And nutrient mineral, which are single elements, which we need, as well as vines, in order to function. And this word minerality, that's a taste perception. I don't know what it means or what causes it, but that's a different third meaning of the word mineral.   About Dr. Alex Maltman Alex Maltman is Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences at Aberystwyth University, in Wales, U.K. Alongside a decorated career in university teaching and research, Alex has for fifty years grown vines and made wine at his home. And through this, perhaps inevitably, he became interested in vineyard geology and its fashionable but poorly understood relationship with wine. This led to numerous publications in both the popular press and academic journals. Alex is the author of the acclaimed Vineyards, Rocks, and Soils: A Wine Lover’s Guide to Geology and newly released Taste the Limestone, Smell the Slate. A Geologist Wanders Through the World of Wine.     To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/356.

Why is Serra Gaúcha the best place to start exploring Brazilian wine and what does this stunning region look like if you want to visit? Which grape varieties thrive in Brazil and have any unique varieties been successful? What's happening with wine culture in Brazil? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Tufi Meyer, author of the terrific new book, Wines of Brazil. You don’t need to have listened to part one from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Two of you are going to win a copy of Tufi Neder Meyer's terrific book, Wines of Brazil. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights What’s the story behind Casa Verrone's "Purple Cow” and what was the tasting experience like? How does Brazilian wine law define noble wine? Which types of Brazilian wood are being used for barrel aging and how do they impact the wines? What are the most successful grape varieties that are native to Brazil? What’s happening with wine culture in Brazil? What does it mean for a wine to have a foxy aroma? Does Brazil produce dessert wines? What do you need to know about the Serra Gaúcha wine region? Which cities and wine regions should you visit on a trip to Brazil? How have heavy taxation and bureaucracy impacted the development of the Brazilian wine industry? What is the one message Tufi would like to share with international wine lovers about Brazilian wines? What does Tufi see for the future of the Brazilian wine industry? Who would Tufi like to be able to share a bottle of wine with?   Key Takeaways Serra Gaucha is a hilly, almost mountainous region, north of the capital of Rio Grande do Sul, a state in the south. It has a long tradition of winemaking and it's a very beautiful region with a very well-developed tourist structure. It's certainly the first region in Brazil where you should go when you start to get to know our wines. Almost every winery has a tasting room, and they are open to visitors. Good restaurants, good hotels, good towns to see. And it's not far from the state capital. In Brazil, like in Argentina, the United States, Canada or Chile, European grapes are the most successful - Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Noir, Syrah, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc - and these are the most successful grapes so far. But we also make our Vinifera wines, varieties developed here in Brazil. The most successful so far is Lorena, which you will not find anywhere else. We have developed a crossing. It's a white grape, very aromatic, Muscat-like or reminds us of Gewurztraminer. It's very successful, growing in popularity. Brazil has tried to develop some exclusive red grapes, but so far, not with very good results. So you won't find red grapes that are equivalent to Lorena, for instance. We must content ourselves with grapes from other countries, but we have a lot of them. The wine consumption in Brazil is growing, although we would like to be faster. I presume this is because wine is fashionable, wine is very good with food, and people are curious about wine. Wine education is progressing. All this may explain this situation, and our national wine industry is growing too.   About Tufi Neder Meyer Tufi Neder Meyer, a graduate of UFMG Medical School with a PhD in surgery, has studied wines since before college and has been a wine educator since the 1990s. He lives and works in Brazil’s south-east, teaching at The Wine School Brazil (WSET approved). Tufi authored ‘Wines of Brazil’, a part of the Classic Wine Library of L’Académie du Vin.         To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/355.

Why are the sparkling wines the most successful wines? What is it about the wines of Brazil, the terroir, that really makes them excel? How does double pruning and winter harvesting help Brazilian vineyards produce higher-quality wines? How did family farming traditions shape Brazil’s wine regions, and what is the crossover between coffee and grape cultivation? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Tufi Meyer, author of the new book Wines of Brazil. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Two of you are going to win a copy of Tufi Neder Meyer's terrific book, Wines of Brazil. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights Where did Tufi’s love for wine come from? Why do red sparkling wines from southern Brazil pair so well with the traditional dish feijoada? Which characteristics make Brazilian sparkling wines particularly successful compared to other wine styles? What’s the biggest misconception about Brazilian wine? How does Brazil’s annual wine production compare to other South American producers? Why hasn't Brazil’s wine industry developed as large as those of Argentina and Chile? How did Portuguese colonial policies impact the development of Brazil’s wine industry? How does Brazil’s size and climate diversity influence viticulture? How has the legacy of land ownership and agricultural practices from the coffee industry shaped modern Brazilian viticulture? Is there any crossover between the coffee and wine industries? How do the different types of viticulture practiced in Brazil differ? What is unique about tropical viticulture in Brazil? Why do some Syrah wines from Brazil resemble those from the northern Rhône in France more than Australian Shiraz? What challenges do Brazilian vineyards face due to the humid climate in certain regions?   Key Takeaways Brazil has all sorts of sparkling wines, from traditional method, made like champagne to sweet, made from Muscat in zesty fashion, passing through tank methods, sparklers. But all of them have a very important character. It's fruit ripeness. Fruit is forward in Brazilian wines. Maybe elegant sometimes, or very well declared at other times, but it's easy to perceive and it's easy to like it. There's a fresh character to our sparklers. If you plant vines in Brazil in places where it is too humid and too warm at that harvest time, you won't get good quality grapes. But if this place has a winter which is not too cold, which has sunny days and cool nights, if you've succeeded in having the harvest during such a time, you have good grapes. That's precisely what double pruning makes. You prune in January, you start a new growth cycle, and the vines will be ripened during our winter. So the winter harvesting. Dry time, sunny days, cool nights. When the Italian immigrants arrived, they were given pieces of land. That's what is today Serra Gaúcha, our main wine-producing region. The relations between coffee and wine have started very much more recently, when double pruning and winter harvest developed here in a coffee region. And today the vines are planted in the same places where coffee does well. In slopes with little risk of frosts, better drain the terrain and many times together, side by side, grapes and coffee groves.   About Tufi Neder Meyer Tufi Neder Meyer, a graduate of UFMG Medical School with a PhD in surgery, has studied wines since before college and has been a wine educator since the 1990s. He lives and works in Brazil’s south-east, teaching at The Wine School Brazil (WSET approved). Tufi authored ‘Wines of Brazil’, a part of the Classic Wine Library of L’Académie du Vin.         To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/354.

How can vines for wine thrive in Mount Etna’s rocky, volcanic soils on the island of Sicily? Mount Etna is a perpetual baby in terms of its vineyard soils; constant rejuvenation of the soil through ash and lava impacts the vine's health and the resulting grape characteristics. The lava flows are centuries old and vary widely. So, how would a producer choose one flow over another for planting? How does Mount Etna still have pre-phylloxera vines that are over 200 years old? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Ben Spencer, the award-winning author of The New Wines of Mount Etna. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Highlights Why did Ben find Fabio Costantino of Terra Costantino such a fascinating and emblematic person from Etna’s wine community? What is the landscape of Mount Etna like, and what makes it unique and beautiful? How do producers on Etna choose which lava flow to plant on? What does it look like to grow grapes in a place as fertile as on Etna? How do Etna wines compare with other volcanic wines? Are field blends of different grape varieties still common in Etna’s vineyards? How does Nerello Mascalese compare to Pinot Noir grapes? Why is Nerello Cappuccio mostly used in blends rather than as a single varietal wine? How does Carricante, Etna’s signature white grape, develop the kerosene or petrol aroma often found in aged Riesling? What were some of the oldest vines Ben has seen on Mount Etna? How can you get the most out of a trip to Etna? Who would Ben love to share a bottle of wine with?   Key Takeaways How can vines for wine thrive in Mount Etna’s rocky, volcanic soils on the island of Sicily? It's very, very fertile and you can plant just about anything. The vines are only part of that biodiversity. You can put a grafted vine selection, masala, cutting from your own vineyard into the earth. What it taps into will sort of define what that vine will be. We see 95% of the vines take because the soil is so fertile. Mount Etna's lava flows are centuries old and vary widely. How would a producer choose one flow over another for planting? Sometimes it's a simple budgetary decision or a farming decision, whether to take over an old vine vineyard or to buy something and replant new vines, whether you want to face the contours of the mountain, or if you want to ease into it with tractor or some sort of mechanized labor, not that many producers do much more than use a tractor in the vineyard, it's very difficult to use heavy machinery on it, and everybody harvests by hand. But certain contrada, certain lava flows, the age of the soil, the slope, east, north, south, they have different flavors. They have different spices, and it's all that lasagna layering of the mountain. It has its own style. How does Mount Etna still have pre-phylloxera vines that are over 200 years old? On Etna, we don't have a lot of clay. So we do have these very, very old vines. The soils need about 3% clay to incubate phylloxera over the winter. And so the soil isn't old enough to have that much clay in it. There's also the snow up at elevation, so it's just inhospitable to the louse. But the oldest vines that I've seen are either Nerello Mascalese or possibly Minnella. The trunks can get really, really big. They can get really long. They look like they're prehistoric.   About Benjamin Spencer Benjamin Spencer is the Director of Etna Wine School and the award-winning author of The New Wines of Mount Etna. In addition to holding a Diploma from the London-based Wine & Spirit Education Trust, Ben is a journalist, wine judge, and a professional winemaker with two decades of experience working with artisan and internationally traded wine brands in California and Italy.         To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/353.

How do elevation and slope influence the style of volcanic wines of Mount Etna? What can volcanic wine made on Mount Etna in Sicily teach us about life? How is Mount Etna’s wine scene evolving? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Ben Spencer, the award-winning author of The New Wines of Mount Etna. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Highlights Which aspects of Ben’s first trip to Sicily in 2007 left a lasting impression? What stood out about Ben’s first experience tasting Etna wine in Sicily? Which early experience exploring Etna’s vineyards fundamentally changed Ben’s understanding of the region and its wines? What do the wines of Etna show us about the relationship between winemaking and life? What are the biggest differences between winemaking in California and Etna, outside of terroir? What does the future look like for Etna wine? Are there limitations to the Etna DOC classification and what is the viable elevation range for vineyards? How do the wine characteristics vary between vines grown in different areas of the mountain? How do the periodic eruptions affect the soil in the vineyards on the slopes of Mount Etna? What was Ben’s vision for the Etna Wine School and which programs are now available? How did Ben’s poetry background influence his transition into wine writing? What can you expect from reading The New Wines of Mount Etna? What was the most surprising thing Ben discovered while writing The New Wines of Mount Etna? Why was researching the book particularly challenging for Ben?   Key Takeaways How do elevation and slope influence the style of volcanic wines of Mount Etna? At lower elevations, we're seeing more ripeness, earlier ripening, more boldness in the fruit. You see more opulent wines at lower elevations. Also, on the south slope, you're getting more development in the growing season because of the way the sun passes from the east along the south slope. The North Slope, we see a little bit more deflected light, especially in the shoulder seasons, so early spring and fall, and so you're getting more elegance. What can volcanic wine made on Mount Etna in Sicily teach us about life? To be patient, to watch, to listen, to learn from what's happening here, and to learn from everybody, because everybody has a different take on what's happening. Etna always moves outside of what we expect it to be. In the glass, we see a white wine, but all of a sudden there's white jasmine and orange flower together in the same field, and there's this juicy fruit and salinity and savory herbs and saltiness, and you get some repeated elements. How is Mount Etna’s wine scene evolving? With Etna being at the beginning of a new wave of production, we are seeing a lot of people trying to define what that is, what Etna can be and will be. It'll be a study of the different elevations, of the different soil types, of the different districts where the wines are being made. But also Etna is a 10,000 foot tall cone. So there's a lot of different aspects to mountain wind, to sunlight, to the sea breezes, to old soils, young soils, and so there's a lot of things happening. So I think Etna will become a benchmark for variety, for exciting wines made from Carricante, the white grape variety here, and also Nerello mascalese, the red grape, which is made into sparkling wines, Rosés and red wines quite successfully.   About Benjamin Spencer Benjamin Spencer is the Director of Etna Wine School and the award-winning author of The New Wines of Mount Etna. In addition to holding a Diploma from the London-based Wine & Spirit Education Trust, Ben is a journalist, wine judge, and a professional winemaker with two decades of experience working with artisan and internationally traded wine brands in California and Italy.         To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/352.

Why can’t we smell sweetness in sparkling wine? How much of what we “taste” in wine is influenced by its appearance and our expectations? What makes copper both a savior and a threat to viticulture? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Sunny Hodge, author of the terrific new book, The Cynic's Guide to Wine. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Two of you are going to win a copy of Sunny Hodge’s terrific new book, The Cynic's Guide to Wine. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights Why is it important to look beyond wine characteristics and consider? How does The Cynic's Guide to Wine aim to challenge the way we talk about wine? Can fossilized oysters in vineyard soil really impart marine characteristics on the wine? Why should food and wine lovers know the story of Fitz Haber? What makes copper both a savior and a threat to viticulture? Why should we move away from the focus on wine flavours and instead use descriptors of what it truly offers? Where does the buttery flavour in wine come from? How does cork taint affect wine as well as our sense of smell and perception? Why do vines grown in cooler temperatures have more black pepper notes? How much of what we “taste” in wine is influenced by its appearance and our expectations? Why can’t we smell sweetness in wine? Could sniffing slower change which aromas you detect in a wine? Why are humans more sensitive to bitter tastes versus sweet? How does adding ice to whiskey open up its aromas?   Key Takeaways The little CO₂ bubbles in sparkling wine dissolve in your saliva and form a physical barrier between certain molecules hitting your tongue and your ability to taste certain things. Sweetness, is the first thing that’ll get blocked out. So, if you have a sparkling wine that has some sweetness, as your saliva builds up with bubbles, you won’t perceive it. We in wine extrapolate a little bit and think, “It's a white wine,” so I may psychosomatically associate it with white peppery things, rather than a red wine, which might be black pepper. It’s actually the same sesquiterpene, called rotundone. We just trick ourselves into perceiving it one way rather than the other. This happens a lot in wine. Copper is naturally antimicrobial and antifungal, which is why we use it in plumbing, hospitals, and as touchpads on doors. Fungal pests like downy and powdery mildew, which affect vines. We spray vines with copper base concoctions to prevent that fungus building up, which will destroy our harvests. But it's not just the heavy metal, but it when it rains, it'll hit your soils and affect earthworms and all of the things that we know to be really good for the soils, naturally. We stop our soil's ability to just look after itself. We haven't found a unified way to overcome downy and powdery mildew without the use of copper.   About Sunny Hodge Sunny Hodge is the sole founder of Diogenes the Dog and aspen & meursault; two multi award-winning wine bars associated with challenging the status quo of wine. He is in the process of developing a wine qualification, The Science of Wine Course. His book “The Cynic’s Guide to Wine” delves into the science behind wine from soil upwards into our perception of taste and flavour to dispel wine myths using science. He is also a member of the Circle of Wine Writers. He is an International wine judge for IWSC awards, was recently shortlisted for the LWF Buyers Awards 2025 for both ‘On-Trade Multiple Venue Wine Buyer’ and ‘Sustainable Wine Buyer of the Year’. Hodge is also a commentator and wine writer for the likes of Waitrose Food Magazine, Evening Standard, The Times, The Guardian, Food FM and Monocle Radio and ITV’s Love Your Weekend.       To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/351.

Can you really taste “minerality” in wine? What gives Champagne and traditional method wines their signature bready flavor and creamy texture? How has natural wine sparked deeper conversations about how we farm and produce food and drink? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Sunny Hodge You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Two of you are going to win a copy of Sunny Hodge’s terrific new book, The Cynic's Guide to Wine. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights What is the deeper meaning behind the name of Sunny’s London wine bar, aspen & meursault? How did Sunny’s early love of rollerskating shape his experiences growing up? What lessons did Sunny’s mother impart that still impact his worldview today? How did Sunny’s engineering background influence his approach to learning about wine? Can we really smell metals and minerals? Why was Sunny skeptical about the influence of soil on wine? What surprised Sunny about our technical insights into wine? How did Sunny find the balance between sharing the complex science behind wine and making it interesting to the average wine lover? Why does Sunny believe we should be applying cynicism to the world of wine? How do natural wines cause us to challenge the food and drink we bring to the table? What does "funky" mean in the context of natural wines? How does Sunny source unusual wines for his wine bars? What is humus, and how does it influence wine character? How do plants absorb nutrients from soil?   Key Takeaways We can smell some geological materials like salt and some minerals, but most minerals and metals we're unable to smell and taste. And those metals that we feel that we can smell and taste, that's actually a tertiary influence of our oils reacting with those metals.Technically, metal and most other minerals except for salt, don't have smell or taste. Yeast autolysis is the process that gives champagnes and traditional method wines their bready, yeasty, autolytic flavor. Autolysis is when a yeast thinks it's gonna die and it's pretty stressed. So as alcohol levels pick up, and your yeast knows it's going to pass away soon, its enzymes will switch on to a different mode, and this is autolysis mode. They'll start eating away at the cell membrane of the yeast, and eventually they'll make little puncture holes, and all of the insides of the yeast will end up in the liquid. So that self-detonation of yeast in stressful environments is what gives the physical texture to your wine. That's why autolytic wines have that texture and it gives you those yeasty, bready flavors. Natural wine makes us question how we farm and how we produce all food and drink, not just wine. Wine is one that we can talk about and have a real discourse without it getting too boring. And with natural wine, those bigger topics are, how do we farm? What are the pros and cons of how we farm now, and how are we making our food and drink?   About Sunny Hodge Sunny Hodge is the sole founder of Diogenes the Dog and aspen & meursault; two multi award-winning wine bars associated with challenging the status quo of wine. He is in the process of developing a wine qualification, The Science of Wine Course. His book “The Cynic’s Guide to Wine” delves into the science behind wine from soil upwards into our perception of taste and flavour to dispel wine myths using science. He is also a member of the Circle of Wine Writers. He is an International wine judge for IWSC awards, was recently shortlisted for the LWF Buyers Awards 2025 for both ‘On-Trade Multiple Venue Wine Buyer’ and ‘Sustainable Wine Buyer of the Year’. Hodge is also a commentator and wine writer for the likes of Waitrose Food Magazine, Evening Standard, The Times, The Guardian, Food FM and Monocle Radio and ITV’s Love Your Weekend.       To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/350.

How does your perspective change when you start looking at life one vintage at a time, divided into seasons? What does it look like when wine is so deeply connected to a region that it shapes work, landscape, community, and what a culture values most? Why is Languedoc becoming a popular choice for organic, biodynamic, and natural winemaking? What makes a “bon moment” and why is it worth taking seriously? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Steve Hoffman, who has written an award-winning memoir called A Season for That: Lost and Found in the Other Southern France. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Three of you are going to win a copy of Steve Hoffman's terrific new book, A Season for That: Lost and Found in the Other Southern France. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights What was Steve’s favourite aperitif discovery in France? How did a funny mispronunciation lead to an embarrassing introduction? How did stuffed cuttlefish challenge Steve’s ideas about strong flavours and aromas in food? How does the historical connection between wine and work show up in French culture today? Why has the Languedoc remained in the shadow of Bordeaux and Burgundy, despite having the largest vineyard area in the world? What surprised Steve the most about the process of blending wine? Why does the latitude of a vineyard matter when learning about tasting wine? How can you have the best experience while visiting the Languedoc?   Key Takeaways How does your perspective change when you start looking at life one vintage at a time, divided into seasons? You start thinking about the unfolding year as not months and days, but as seasons, and you look forward to the next season. And you participate fully, and then you let that season be done, and don't mourn it, because you know it's going to come around again. It forces you to be present in the moment, because it's not like, if I just wait long enough, things are going to get better. What does it look like when wine is so deeply connected to a region that it shapes work, landscape, community, and what a culture values most? In wine country, wine is not just a pleasant accompaniment to life; it literally forms everything. The vines themselves actually form the landscape and just becomes a part of everything. It's work, it's what creates revenue that the village can survive, but then it's also something that you have with almost every meal. Why is Languedoc becoming a popular choice for organic, biodynamic, and natural winemaking? It's still an affordable place to buy a hectare of vines, and so young winemakers can come in and they can afford to experiment with organic, natural or biodynamic winemaking. A lot of the chemicals to avoid spoilage - the Languedoc naturally doesn't have much of that. What makes a “bon moment” and why is it worth taking seriously? It's translated as a good moment, but in France, it has all kinds of other connotations. I think everybody who's listening will recognize one of those moments where you're sitting with people that you care about, where there's good wine and there's good food. That’s the centerpiece, that's the excuse to be together. But then the moment unfolds into something greater than itself.   About Steve Hoffman Steve Hoffman is a Minnesota tax preparer and food writer. His writing has won multiple national awards, including the 2019 James Beard M.F.K. Fisher Distinguished Writing Award. He has been published in Food & Wine, The Washington Post, and The Minneapolis Star Tribune, among other publications. He shares one acre on Turtle Lake, in Shoreview, Minnesota, with his wife, Mary Jo, their elderly and entitled puggle, and roughly 80,000 honeybees.       To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/349.