EP 163: The Cost of Going It Alone: David Gate on A Rebellion of Care and Collective Leadership

We’re better together. We need community. We need the collective.We hear these ideas and believe in their truth. But when so many of us grew up learning that we’re supposed to do it all on our own, letting go of individualism takes a lot of conscious unlearning.An individualist lens on leadership tells us that when things go wrong, we’re both the source of the problem and responsible for the solution. We get stretched thin. We people please. We overfunction and overachieve, and still it never feels like we’re doing enough.Shifting to a systemic lens on leadership, one that asks what the whole system needs and who else belongs in the conversation, is the difficult work we need to do in order to embrace the collective not just in heart and mind, but in action.My guest today speaks to the challenges of navigating systems that still reward hyper-individualism and the need to build real trust in others and our communities through his poems, essays, and artwork with deep conviction and clarity. I am so excited for you to listen to our conversation.David Gate is a poet, writer and visual artist who hails from London, UK and now resides in the mists of the ancient Blue Ridge Mountains in Asheville, North Carolina.His work centers around care for the individual (heart, mind, body & soul) and the nurture of community (culture, the earth &  environment, the dignity of others and spiritual communities).Listen to the full episode to hear:How the emotional distance and perspective of being in his 40s has shifted the lens of David’s writingWhy true caring for each other is an act of rebellion in our hyper-individualist cultureHow a filter of care influences the choices David makes, both in the big picture and the day-to-dayHow having experienced financial precarity can shift how people relate to their resources and communitiesHow the process of writing and editing A Rebellion of Care helped David rediscover the power of writing essaysThe experience that helped David detach the practices of faith from the leadership norms that exist in many churchesLearn more about David Gate:davidgatepoet.comInstagram: @davidgatepoetA Rebellion of Care on SubstackA Rebellion of CareLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Reclaiming My Theology PodcastAbsalom, Absalom! William FaulknerLet the Poets Govern: A Declaration of Freedom, Camonghne FelixFather John Misty - The PayoffAndorHouse of the DragonMasters of the UniverseHe-Man and the Masters of the UniverseJoker: Folie à DeuxChapters:(00:39) - Introduction (06:42) - Reevaluating Inherited Culture (09:47) - Unlearning Evangelicalism (12:43) - Finding Emotional Stability (14:15) - Power and American Evangelicalism (16:22) - Why Care Is Rebellion (19:35) - Defining Care In Practice (22:34) - Mutual Aid And Money Fears (27:20) - Work Myth And Poverty Proximity (30:33) - Writing Process And Clarity (34:40) - Seattle Church Breakthrough (39:34) - Relationship with Privilege (41:31) - Servant Leadership Redefined (43:23) - Rapid Fire Questions (51:59) - Where to Connect (53:12) - Closing Thoughts

No matter how much we’d like it to be true, we can’t think our way into changing.We have so much information, language, and so many tools to help us understand what makes us tick right at our fingertips. And who doesn’t love a quiz, a personality test, a self-help book, or (ahem) a podcast that helps us make sense of ourselves and others in our personal and professional lives?Whether it’s Myers-Briggs, StrengthsFinder, your Enneagram, or your astrological chart, you probably have years’ worth of exposure to various categories, frameworks, and language to call on. And yet, you still feel like a stranger to yourself in the moments that matter most.Because we can’t intellectualize our way through change. We have to feel it. We have to do it.This is where trauma-informed leadership work actually lives, not in collecting more language for what's wrong with you or others, but in helping you recognize the echoes of your own story that are still running the show, and developing the skills to help you take action and choose differently.Today’s guest has spent her career studying people, the soul, and how we relate to ourselves and others. But in writing her most recent book, she found she had to dig deeper into her own story and start to really live the work herself. And when she started living things differently, she realized there was no looking back.Dr. Alison Cook is a therapist, psychologist of religion, bestselling author, and host of the top-ranked The Best of You podcast. Widely recognized for her ability to bridge faith and psychology in a way that is both deeply practical and spiritually alive, Dr. Alison has spent over two decades helping people move from feeling disconnected to feeling secure, grounded, and loved. Her books, including Boundaries for Your Soul and The Best of You, have sold over 150,000 copies. She and her husband, Joe, are the parents of two adult children and call the mountains of Wyoming home.Listen to the full episode to hear: How Alison navigated the personal and professional anxieties raised as she brought her own story into her new bookWhy revisiting her adolescence was a deeply vulnerable but necessary piece of learning to notice her inner bids for connectionHow minimizing our everyday wounds impacts us individually and as a cultureWhy doing the inner work of witnessing yourself is part of getting your needs met in the outside worldWhy self-awareness and conscious choice matter when it comes to engaging our controllers and escape hatchesHow developing trust in her fundamental belovedness gives Alison the security to be accountable to the people in her lifeLearn more about Dr. Alison Cook:WebsiteThe Best of You PodcastInstagram: @dralisoncookFacebook: @dralisoncookThe Secure Soul: Finding Inner Strength and Connection When Trust Doesn't Come EasyLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:FootlooseIrvin D. YalomDopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence, Anna Lembke MDInto the Quiet: Following Jesus in a World of Noise, John Mark ComerTaylor Swift - The Fate of OpheliaPretty in PinkChapters:(00:43) - Introduction (09:46) - Belonging to Our Story (15:53) - Anticipating the Costs (19:28) - Rage Journaling and Attachment Wounds (30:01) - Inner Work and Right Sized Needs (34:22) - Controller Parts Explained (40:22) - Recognize, Return, and Divine Love (43:58) - Leadership Without Othering (48:46) - Inner Life Shapes Leadership (51:25) - Rapid Fire Questions (55:30) - Where to Connect (56:14) - Closing Thoughts

What does connection mean to you? How do you know when you're feeling connected?Connection is foundational to building trust, and trust is an essential quality that any team or relationship needs to grow.Yet in many relationships, both personally and professionally, we tolerate disconnection. We miss the early signals of missed deadlines, the subtle cues of quiet resentment, and the team that’s compliant and even productive, but not engaged.  Until disconnection creates the distrust, the dis-ease, and the erosion of psychological safety that, left unchecked, hijacks even the strongest relationships, teams, and organizations.Leaders and their teams need to not only learn to identify markers of disconnection early, but to also develop the skills to repair it. The goal isn’t a team that never ruptures. It’s a team that knows how to reconnect.That’s why I’m so excited to talk with my guest today about her work that integrates well-being science, positive psychology, and systems-level leadership to help organizations uncover what it takes to build connected, thriving teams where well-being and high performance can truly coexist.Jamie Shapiro, PhD, is a Keynote Speaker, Master Certified Executive Coach, organizational psychologist, researcher and the CEO of Connected EC. Jamie’s approach blends science, strategy, and lived leadership experience to her work with CEOs and executive teams navigating growth, complexity, and cultural transformation.Jamie is the author of Brilliant: Be the Leader Who Shines Brightly Without Burning Out and Connected Culture: The New Science for Thriving Teams and Cultures. She is also the founder of the Leader and Organization Vitality (LOV) Center, a research institute that advances the science of leadership vitality, culture, and performance and bridges the gap between research and real-world practice.Listen to the full episode to hear: How Jamie’s personal experience with cycles of burnout in the corporate world informs her research and coaching practiceThe physical, mental, and emotional impacts of trust and connection on teamsWhy Jamie’s model for thriving teams has trust, care, and connection at its coreWhat corporate culture consistently gets wrong about candid communication and the number one way to improve itWhat we can learn from chickens about building high-performing teamsHow psychological safety and connection positively drive performanceLearn more about Jamie Shapiro:Connected ECConnect on LinkedInBrilliant: Be The Leader Who Shines Brightly Without Burning OutConnected Culture: The New Science for Thriving Teams and CulturesLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Links The Gifts of Imperfection, Brené BrownLoneliness: Human Nature and the Need for Social Connection, John T Cacioppo and William PatrickThe Neuroscience of Trust, Paul J. Zak | Harvard Business ReviewThe Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth, Amy C. EdmondsonRight Use of Power InstituteShaping Power for Good: Wayfinding to Right Relationship, Amanda AguileraSuper-Chicken ModelJust One Word: The Surprisingly Simple Method to Discover Your Purpose and Unleash Your Power, Erin WeedILLENIUMOff CampusVoicemails for IsabelleSixteen CandlesChapters:(00:22) - Introduction (07:33) - New Book and Career Pivot (11:33) - Support Systems (13:38) - Burnout to Vitality Research (16:10) - Trust Fuels Team Energy (21:29) - Connection Model and Accountability (24:36) - Defining candid communication (27:59) - Psychological Safety Reframed (30:00) - Listening and Power Dynamics (32:58) - High Performer Chicken Study (37:46) - From Doing To Being (41:21) - Safety Versus Accountability Myth (48:30) - Defining Leadership (49:52) - Quick Fire Questions (55:51) - How to Connect (56:35) - Closing Thoughts

When the stakes rise and more is on the line, everything about visibility shifts –– what it means, what it costs, and what it asks of you.And if you ever experienced bullying, relational trauma, betrayal, or abuse, visibility can be more than just awkward or uncomfortable. Unprocessed echoes of those burdens can make the past feel like it is happening in the present.We have to do the work of building more trust within, getting clear on who and what really matters, and learning to follow our values even when we do not know the results.As my guest today reminded me, when we go silent, we may feel safe, but our voices are not out there, and others will step in to define the direction of conversations and the topics that matter most to us.Showing up and letting people see and hear you isn’t always easy, but with practice and courage, we can reshape the narratives we carry about ourselves and our visibility.Mike Ganino works with professional speakers, keynote speakers, and executives to help them create transformative speaking experiences worthy of standing ovations. As a keynote director with a background as an actor, writer, director, producer, hospitality executive, and corporate trainer, Mike learned to view storytelling and performance from the audience’s perspective and uses these insights and experiences to help his clients develop talks and performances that go beyond just wowing the audience to truly transform their thinking.Listen to the full episode to hear:How a fourth-grade substitute teacher showed Mike the power of making people feel seenWhy getting comfortable with visibility requires us to address the relational wounds that have kept us quietWhat we can learn from actors about the choices we make as we show up and interact with othersWhy developing as a speaker is a physical practice before it’s an intellectual practiceTwo essential elements for telling an effective storyHow fears of losing status and being misunderstood keeps us from showing up for ourselves and others Learn more about Mike Ganino:https://mikeganino.com/Instagram: @mikeganinoFacebook: @mikeganinoConnect on LinkedInMake a Scene: Storytelling, Stage Presence, and the Art of Being Unforgettable in Every SpotlightLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:The Face: A Natural History, Daniel McNeillAriana GrandeE.T. the Extra-TerrestrialChapters:(00:43) - Introduction (08:36) - Fourth Grade Lessons (13:28) - Healing Through Visibility (16:59) - Safe Reps on Video (21:40) - Authenticity vs Performance (25:29) - Questioning the 'new and fresh' (28:59) - Top Visibility Blocks (31:24) - Gendered Speaking Habits (37:36) - Storytelling For an Integrated Life (41:05) - Status Loss and Feedback (45:45) - Who you take notes from matters (49:56) - Inner Child And Leadership (50:51) - Defining Leadership (52:00) - Embracing the Complexities (53:56) - Rapid Fire (58:05) - Making Connections (59:00) - Closing Thoughts

A lot of people feel like they know who they're supposed to be, how they're supposed to show up, and what they're supposed to value, and they assume those things come from themselves instead of external influences. But we all have internalized beliefs and expectations from others, our culture, and the systems we live in. It takes a beat, sometimes a long one, to get clear on who you actually are and what is actually important to you. It requires building the kind of deep self-trust that allows you to act from your values even when the world is suggesting otherwise.And if you carry relational wounds or other interpersonal or socio-cultural burdens, those experiences can slow down or block your capacity to deepen self-trust, trust in others, grow in courage, and fully inhabit your whole story. That is not a character flaw. It is a developmental reality.My guest today models what becomes possible when you stop performing the version of yourself the world approved of and start trusting yourself and leading from that space. She is building a career and a creative practice rooted in self-trust and values alignment, and she is far from done.MILCK, born Connie K. Lim, is a self-proclaimed gentle rebel whose artistry and advocacy is fueled by her music. Her breakout anthem “Quiet” became a global sensation, championing women’s rights and resonating with movements around the globe. MILCK has collaborated with notable artists such as John Legend, Natasha Bedingfield, Phillipa Soo, Ani DiFranco, Aloe Blacc, and LeAnn Rimes, blending soulful melodies with poignant, socially conscious lyrics. Beyond the recording industry, MILCK is expanding her creative reach into musical theater, advocacy, and mentorship; MILCK and artists Sam Chanse, Jess Mcleod, and AG have partnered with La Jolla Playhouse to develop The Family Album, an award-winning seriocomedy musical. Inspired by MILCK's life journey, the musical explores themes of healing and family.Listen to the full episode to hear:How “Quiet” began as a means to process her own story and turned into an anthemHow personal, creative, and therapeutic supports came together to help Connie find her truth and her voice and connect with audiencesThe discouragement of her dreams Connie received as a kid and why her younger self is delighted with her nowHow working on The Family Album has been healing for Connie and her familyDeveloping the confidence and self-trust to push boundaries and be an emotional bridgeHow the all-female creative team behind The Family Album musical came togetherLearn more about MILCK:WebsiteInstagram: @milckmusicMILCK on BandcampGet tickets to The Family AlbumLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Childhood and Society, Erik H EriksonIn Over Our Heads: The Mental Demands of Modern Life, Robert KeganRoxy Music - AvalonCouples TherapyTears For FearsChapters:(00:37) - Introduction (07:35) - Meet Connie Kim aka MILCK (13:36) - Quiet - Origins and Cost (18:22) - Therapy and Support Mirrors (20:55) - Musical Beginnings (25:31) - Younger Self and Healing (29:14) - Turning Life Into A Musical (32:36) - Fighting to Stay Connected to Family (37:15) - Pushing Boundaries for Healing and Growing (41:19) - Conflict and the Wisdom of the Past (46:12) - Family Album Origin Story (55:35) - Opening Night Emotions (57:29) - Defining Leadership (58:48) - Quick Fire Questions (01:02:55) - How to Connect (01:04:34) - Closing Thoughts

How many times have you talked yourself out of pursuing an opportunity, telling yourself it wasn't for you, that you weren’t ready, or you weren’t qualified? What if that hesitation wasn't self-awareness but a script you internalized?Many women have a complicated relationship with their ambitions for greater leadership and greater wealth. And it isn’t because women are somehow inherently less suited for leadership or financial independence. The systems of power, patriarchy, sexism, and misogyny that we live in every day shape the voice in women’s heads that tells them they’re not meant to be a leader.We are in a political and cultural moment where women’s rights and autonomy are facing incredible pushback at all levels. It’s vital that we examine our internalized biases towards ourselves and others, where we limit our ambitions for roles we have the skills and abilities for, and where we’re giving up our power because of the stories we’ve been told by our society.My guest today is a beautiful example of a woman who hadn’t considered herself for a CEO role, but who stepped into the position and has grown into the kind of leader we just might need most right now. In our conversation, we talk a lot about women and finances and also about what we believe about our abilities and the opportunities we deserve to pursue.Sylvia Kwan is a Chartered Financial Analyst with more than 30 years of industry experience. Prior to Ellevest, she founded SimplySmart Asset Management and held senior portfolio management positions at Financial Engines and Charles Schwab. Sylvia serves on the Board of Exit 182, the investment committee that oversees the endowment of Grinnell College. Listen to the full episode to hear: How Sylvia’s commitment to Ellevest’s mission bolstered her through the abrupt and sometimes isolating shift into being CEOHow she navigated the tension between wanting to be transparent with her team and needing to project calmThe scripts about who she is and the work she excels at that Sylvia had to rewrite, and why it’s a continuing processHow the financial industry subconsciously reinforces sexist ideas about women and moneyWhy taking the stigma out of women talking about money is a key piece of closing the gender wealth gapHow women accruing wealth actually supports communities and creates more equityHow convoluted jargon and perfectionism keep women from getting started with investingLearn more about Sylvia Kwan, PhD, CFA, CAIA: EllevestInstagram: @ellevestConnect on LinkedInLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources: EP 88: Right-Use-of-Power: Navigating Leadership Dynamics with Dr. Cedar BarstowRight Use of Power: The Heart of Ethics: A Guide and Resource for Professional Relationships, Dr. Cedar BarstowThe Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love, bell hooksDown Girl: The Logic of Misogyny, Kate Manne Women leaders make work better. Here’s the science behind how to promote themPower with purpose: How women's leadership boosts the economy and society | DevexWhidbey, T Kira MaddenCeCe Winans - Goodness of GodTed LassoChapters:(00:42) - Introduction (11:55) - Sudden CEO Transition (14:15) - Self Trust and Mission (17:45) - Leading Through Uncertainty (22:48) - Rewriting the Leadership Script (27:10) - Finance Industry Gender Gap (33:48) - Myths About Women and Wealth (36:24) - Complexity Masquerading as Sophistication (39:46) - Roadblocks and Getting Started Now (44:31) - Defining Leadership (46:22) - Embracing the Complexities (48:27) - Quick Fire Questions (53:35) - How to Connect (54:26) - Closing Thoughts

Say the word ambition, especially around women, and it brings up a complicated mix of emotions and beliefs.If you're not succeeding, you're not ambitious enough. If you are succeeding, wanting a lot, and going for it, you're too ambitious, and you get penalized or punished. It happens at work, at home, and in the communities we move through every day.There are so many mixed messages about ambition and success coming at us from every direction. And it's not just imposed from the outside.For many women, those messages get internalized and shape the way we present ourselves and communicate about our work and personal lives. We start to police our own ambition, and we police each other's ambition.My guest today names the invisible norms around women’s ambitions, and calls out the ways that organizations perpetuate bias, even as they think they’re playing fair. Her work is extensively researched, tracing the roots of the tension around ambition, and also offers language and an opportunity for us to reclaim our ambitions together. Stefanie O’Connell is an award-winning journalist and author of The Ambition Penalty: How Corporate Culture Tells Women to Step Up– and Then Pushes Them Down. Her work dismantles the myths keeping women from equitable pay, leadership and power — one data point at a time.Listen to the full episode to hear:The material costs of what happens when women speak up, lean in, and get ambitiousHow implicit and gendered double standards around power keep women out of leadershipWhy encouraging ambition in girls doesn’t translate into celebrating ambition in womenHow people and organizations that believe they are meritocratic end up reinforcing the most biasWhy we can’t self-optimize our way out of systemic inequality, and why we need collective actionSix key elements for reframing burnout as an environmental problem, not a personal oneWhy we need to push back against framing women being pushed out of the work force as “empowerment” and challenge sexism in our everyday lives Learn more about Stefanie O'Connell:WebsiteToo Ambitious on SubstackInstagram: @stefanieoconnellThreads: @stefanieoconnellTikTok: @stefaniemoconnellThe Ambition PenaltyLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:EP 155: Hidden Cost of Caretaking at Work: Nilofer Merchant on Invisible Norms Limiting Your LeadershipStop Punishing Women for Being Ambitious | BloombergMaslach, Christina. (1998). A Multidimensional Theory of Burnout. 10.1093/oso/9780198522799.003.0004. My Mother's Daughter: Finding Myself in My Family's Fractured Past, Tracy Clark-Flory Ragtime (2025 Broadway Cast Recording)Mad MenChapters:(00:07) - Introduction (07:14) - Meet Stephanie OConnell (10:30) - The Ambition Penalty (14:06) - The Ambition Double-Standard (19:51) - The Shame of Ambition (22:34) - Women Colluding with The Harm (28:50) - Hustle Culture (32:26) - Maslach's Burnout Framework (39:01) - Reframing Empowerment (42:06) - Leveraging our Collective Power (48:16) - Quick Fire Questions (53:02) - How To Connect (54:05) - Closing Thoughts

Some words and experiences come with a lot of baggage, conjuring up fear, stigma, and shame.But being afraid or ashamed doesn’t protect us from those experiences or those words. It just keeps us from really understanding them or being able to talk about them. And what we can’t process for ourselves, we can’t help those we love and lead with either.In the clinical space, dissociation is one of those words and experiences that is met with a lot of discomfort. How people were taught and trained to address dissociation often perpetuates shame and stigma, and its pop culture depictions and usage haven’t helped either.But my guest today has spent her career making the case that dissociation isn’t rare, or even necessarily pathological; it’s actually a common and deeply human experience that ranges from everyday zoning out to more complex presentations that do need support. And as you’ll hear, Dr. Jamie Marich believes understanding this spectrum isn’t just a matter of clinical education, but is vital for our own self-knowledge and how we lead others.Dr. Jamie Marich, PhD, LPCC-S, REAT (she/they) began her career as a humanitarian aid worker in Bosnia-Herzegovina from 2000-2003, primarily teaching English and music. Jamie travels internationally teaching on topics related to trauma, EMDR therapy, expressive arts, mindfulness, and yoga, while maintaining a private practice and online education operations in her home base of Akron, OH. Marich is the founder of the Institute for Creative Mindfulness and the developer of the Dancing Mindfulness approach to expressive arts therapy, and the author of several books on EMDR, dissociation, mindfulness, recovery, and more. Listen to the full episode to hear:The stakes of identifying as having a dissociative disorder, and why Jamie felt it was vital for them speak up anywayHow no longer being “zipped in” has given Jamie access to true authenticity and flow in her personal and professional livesDefining dissociation at its most basic, and how and why it shows up in everyday situationsWhy having parts is not necessarily pathological and why for some people those entities become so distinctThe most persistent and harmful myths about dissociative disorders, for both patients and providersWhy Jamie starts trainings with having people learn to recognize their own dissociative tendenciesWhy DID is not a TikTok fad, and why more recognition and discussion is better than ignoranceLearn more about Dr. Jamie Marich:WebsiteRedefine TherapyThe Institute for Creative MindfulnessInstagram: @drjamiem, @traumatherapistrants TikTok: @traumatherapistrantsYouTube: @DrJamieMMDissociation Made Simple: A Stigma-Free Guide to Embracing Your Dissociative Mind and Navigating Daily LifeLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Coming Out As Plural - Psychotherapy NetworkerFighting Dissociation Phobia and Coming Out as a Professional with a Dissociative DisorderAm I In A Therapy Cult?Decolonizing Therapy: Oppression, Historical Trauma, and Politicizing Your Practice, Jennifer Mullan, PsyDJasmine Adams, LCSW, PMH-C - The Institute for Creative MindfulnessPlural Pride Meets LGBTQ+ Pride: Webinar ReplayPlural Pride Meets LGBTQ+ Pride: Katie Keech and Dr. Jamie MarichHealing Dissociative Identity Disorder - Psychotherapy NetworkerTruth Demands: A Memoir of Murder, Oil Wars, and the Rise of Climate Justice, Abby Reyes"Your Heart Knows the Way Home," Te MartinThe TestamentsThe Late Show with Stephen ColbertJohn R. MabryChapters:(03:57) - Welcome Dr. Jamie Marich (04:30) - Coming Out as Plural (06:37) - Why Speak Up (12:09) - The Power and Process of Coming Out (14:48) - Authenticity and Zipped Up (17:50) - Slow Steps to Visibility (21:17) - AUTHENTICITY (27:22) - Defining Dissociation (31:40) - Protection vs Meeting Needs (34:49) - Harmful Dissociation Myths (38:12) - Reducing Fear Through Self Work (41:19) - Am I In A Therapy Cult? (43:41) - DID Is Not A Fad (46:26) - Stop Policing Trauma (49:36) - Gifts Of Dissociation (51:30) - Teaching DID With Humility (53:25) - Too Grounded To Be Traumatized? (57:42) - Myths Media And Parts (59:06) - Rapid Fire Questions (01:04:05) - Where to Connect (01:05:19) - Closing Thoughts

Every system we move through runs on norms: rules and agreements that are both explicit and implicit. And nowhere are they more powerful–or more invisible–than in how we lead and how we build our businesses. In fact, sociologists have consistently found that norms don’t announce themselves. They travel through families, schools, workplaces, and entire cultures through repetition and imitation, often persisting long after the conditions that created them have changed. We absorb them before we can name them. And once they are inside us, they feel like “just the way things are.”In leadership development the norms run so deep we have mistaken them for truth. As a result, the model leader–despite decades of language to the contrary–still looks and sounds like a very particular kind of person.My guest today offers that leadership development has been trying to make better leaders for a broken system, rather than questioning whether the system itself needs to change. Nilofer Merchant has spent her career making the invisible visible–naming the norms, the systems, the daily routines that keep us collectively stuck. In this conversation, we go deep on the difference between caring and caretaking, what it means to trust yourself when the ground keeps disappearing, and what it actually takes to stop trying to fix what is not working and become someone who builds what is needed, right where you are.Nilofer Merchant is the co-founder of Intangible Labs. She spent over 25 years leading technology companies (Apple, Autodesk, GoLive/Adobe) and personally launched over 100 products and services, netting $18 billion in revenues. She is ranked among the top 50 influential management thinkers in the world (one of her TED Talks has been referenced 300 million times). Our Best Work is her 4th book.Listen to the full episode to hear:Why accepting our current norms won’t get leaders where they want to goHow what we call personal agency is in reality socially constructed and drivenWhy we need more real care and less caretaking in our relationships at work and in lifeHow teams can shift towards situational leadership and recentering how we think about the unique value and capabilities individuals bringHow ownership, shared purpose, and co-creation help us build new systems, unstuck from the status quoNilofer’s lessons about self-trust, taking risks, and approaching the future of work with hopeLearn more about Nilofer Merchant:WebsiteThe Intangible LabsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/nilofer/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nilofer.merchantConnect on LinkedInOur Best Work: Break Free from the 24 Invisible Norms That Limit UsLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:The Power of Onlyness: Make Your Wild Ideas Mighty Enough to Dent the WorldMary Parker FollettMother Mary Comes to Me, Arundhati RoyThe God of Small Things, Arundhati RoyPrizefighter - Mumford & SonsLaw & OrderDire Straits - Money For NothingDuran Duran - Hungry like the WolfThe Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantChapters:(00:07) - Introduction (11:36) - Why Norms Persist (14:41) - Making the Hard Changes (16:06) - Personal Agency is Not Persona (18:55) - Servant to Situational Leadership (23:08) - Care vs Caretaking (30:07) - Making it Practical: Power of Onlines (37:08) - Uncertainty and Control (40:50) - AI, Layoffs, and Control (44:03) - Build The New Village (45:59) - Ownership Over Accountability (50:33) - Trusting Your Instinct (54:59) - Walking Toward Yourself (58:36) - Hope As Liberation (01:01:36) - Quickfire Questions (01:08:14) - How To Connect (01:09:03) - Closing Thoughts

It is hard to be human. And right now, it is even harder to be humane, to ourselves and to others.And so many high-achieving, deeply caring leaders are under pressure to stay regulated, calm, and adaptable, no matter what they’re facing. They look serene on the outside, but internally? They feel like a hot mess. They mask what they’re feeling and push through so they can try to be the person, friend, leader they want to be. They fake regulation at the expense of their actual wellbeing.As the language of modalities like IFS and polyvagal theory has spread into the culture, the concepts have been distorted and even weaponized to police others and encourage self-editing, silencing, and hypervigilance. The exact opposite of cultivating the safety, connection, and practices that support a resilient nervous system.Today, polyvagal-theory expert Deb Dana is back to talk with me about what the culture so often gets wrong about nervous system regulation, why we need to plan for how to approach repair and reconnection when we inevitably make mistakes, and how to protect our compassion and curiosity about all the other kinds of nervous systems we encounter out in the world.Deb Dana, LCSW, is a clinician, consultant, author, and international lecturer on polyvagal theory-informed work with trauma survivors and is the leading translator of this scientific work to the public and mental health professionals. She's a founding member of the Polyvagal Institute and creator of the signature Rhythm of Regulation® clinical training series.Deb's work shows us how understanding polyvagal theory applies across the board to relationships, mental health, and trauma. She delves into the intricacies of how we can all use and understand the organizing principles of polyvagal theory to change the ways we navigate our daily lives.Listen to the full episode to hear:Why we can’t ignore our fundamental need for connection and co-regulationHow leaders can take steps to acknowledge and normalize the diversity of nervous systems and needs on their teamsHow to plan ahead for moments when you feel disconnected or dysregulatedWhy the goal is not to be regulated at all times and shifting states is just dataWhy identifying the worries underlying our patterns of states and behaviors is the first step to shifting themWhy leaders need to tend to their own systems, both for their wellbeing and to model safety for othersLearn more about Deb Dana:Rhythm of RegulationLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth, Amy C. EdmondsonStephen PorgesPolyvagal-Informed Restorative Movement: Psychotherapy Roots, Rhythm, and Reciprocity, Amber Elizabeth GrayProject Hail MaryField of DreamsChapters:(00:07) - Introduction (06:00) - Meet Deb Dana (08:21) - The Fundamentals of Co-Regulation (13:06) - Survival vs. Safety (17:00) - Leading Diverse Nervous Systems (18:58) - Two AM Connection Plans (22:19) - Polyvagal Hierarchy Explained (25:00) - Build Your Regulation Menu (31:35) - Micro Moments And Glimmers (34:58) - Safe Enough And Curiosity (38:11) - Protecting Curiosity Under Stress (40:14) - Neck Up Trauma Patterns (44:57) - Home Away From Home and Our Nervous System (52:53) - Safety for Leaders Today (58:30) - Quick Fire Favorites (01:03:39) - How To Connect (01:04:21) - Closing Thoughts