Haseeb and Gwart, Round II (With Tarun Chitra)

Welcome to The Gwart Show! Today, Noah Goldberg of Theia Research, joins us to dive deep into the world of liquid token markets. Noah breaks down why the "token premium" is unsustainable, how his firm evaluates fundamental value in DeFi applications, and why the market structure creates perverse incentives. He explains why on-chain finance hasn't supplanted traditional finance as quickly as many expected, discusses problems with market making in crypto, and offers insight into how crypto can build sustainable moats. A must-listen for understanding crypto's real financial underpinnings. Subscribe to the newsletter! https://newsletter.blockspacemedia.com Notes: • Token premium is unsustainable long-term • RTV (Revenue to Transaction Volume) models for L1s • Market makers often artificially prop up token prices • Money markets account for $800B in traditional finance • Most tokens are marked at unrealistic valuations • Venture investors create circular valuation patterns Timestamps: 00:00 Start 00:37 Who is Noah? 02:36 Why Liquid? 05:03 Tokens vs equity 09:03 Token premium 12:25 Are tokens irrational? 17:55 Why isn't RadFi embracing DeFi? 23:26 Global investor base for tokens 25:46 Infrastructure apps 29:30 Cash flow modeling 31:31 REV on L1 32:32 Investing in L1s & REV 35:46 Is the market valuing REV? 39:16 Unitoken 42:43 Uniswap valuation vs equity 45:53 Token moats 48:18 Liquidity as moat 58:50 Improvements for markets 1:02:00 Market making vs token price 1:06:29 Whay are weak tokens valued so high? 1:11:28 Value of low liquidity tokens 👋 The Gwart Show is sponsored by Ellipsis Labs. Ellipsis Labs is building Atlas, the blockchain purpose-built for verifiable finance. You may know of Ellipsis Labs by their first product Phoenix, a fully on-chain orderbook DEX that’s done over 50 billion dollars in unincentivized volume. They are one of the strongest teams I know in crypto. If you’re interested in working for a mission-driven company, Ellipsis Labs is hiring engineers passionate about crypto and finance to work on Atlas. You can learn more and apply on Ellipsis Labs’ Twitter “at Ellipsis_Labs”. Don’t forget to check out Atlas too, @atlasxyz on Twitter. Enjoy the show? Check out our website and newsletter by clicking here. Questions or want to sponsor? [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to The Gwart Show! Today, Santisa @Tiza4ThePeople from Lucidity joins us to discuss market neutral strategies in DeFi. He breaks down how his fund extracts alpha from stablecoin pairs and incentive programs while maintaining a risk-neutral position. We dive into the sophistication behind monitoring protocols, identifying opportunities through on-chain analysis, and why DeFi tokens rarely represent true equity value. Santisa explains why his fund immediately dumps governance tokens, how they achieved double digit APY with "negligible risk," and why Bitcoin remains his primary conviction despite years in the DeFi ecosystem. Subscribe to the newsletter! https://newsletter.blockspacemedia.com Notes: - Fund achieved 21.3% APY with "negligible risk" - Stablecoin strategies focus on risk-adjusted returns - DeFi getting safer but smart contract risks remain - Massive accounts ($40-50M) farming UniChain - Athena paying up to 39-40% yields initially - Most DeFi tokens lack fundamental value connection Timestamps: 00:00 Start 00:28 Santisa's story 01:48 Lucidity 02:22 What's a market neutral strategy? 03:50 Can a pleb trade market neutral? 06:33 Long or short ETH? 08:10 Structure risk strategies 10:22 Unichain 12:46 Farm & dump 12:57 Farming in size 15:15 Market maturity & deal killers 19:10 Covering hacking losses 23:18 USDC pairs & incentives 24:40 Are you long ANY asset? 25:46 Bearish DeFi tokens 27:24 Any hope for DeFi tokens? 31:14 It's a Bitcoin market, hop on 33:51 Maker DAO buy back model 36:46 Athena is NOT a stablecoin 39:20 Athena farming 41:06 Athena token losing value 42:49 Token vs VC money burn 45:16 What is actually exciting 47:17 SOL 48:48 Future of Lucidity? 50:40 Identifying opportunities 52:21 Outperforming BTC 56:14 Is crypto VS over? 👋 The Gwart Show is sponsored by Ellipsis Labs. Ellipsis Labs is building Atlas, the blockchain purpose-built for verifiable finance. You may know of Ellipsis Labs by their first product Phoenix, a fully on-chain orderbook DEX that’s done over 50 billion dollars in unincentivized volume. They are one of the strongest teams I know in crypto. If you’re interested in working for a mission-driven company, Ellipsis Labs is hiring engineers passionate about crypto and finance to work on Atlas. You can learn more and apply on Ellipsis Labs’ Twitter “at Ellipsis_Labs”. Don’t forget to check out Atlas too, @atlasxyz on Twitter. Enjoy the show? Check out our website and newsletter by clicking here. Questions or want to sponsor? [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to the Gwart Show! We got Round II of the Crypto VC debate with Gwart and Haseeb. Are tokens actually worth anything? Do VCs provide real signal value? What's the right benchmark for success? The conversation gets spicy as they examine Dragonfly's portfolio performance, discuss whether tokens truly capture value, and question if early-stage crypto investments can ever live up to their promises. With occasional moderation from Tarun, this debate exposes the tension between VC optimism and market skepticism. Follow our guests: @tarunchitra @hosseeb # Notes: • Tokens launched in bull markets typically underperform • Bitcoin has decoupled from alts as a "macro asset" • VCs typically invest at much lower valuations pre-listing • Zora launched at $200M valuation as a "fun token" • Crypto VC returns are power-law distributed Timestamps: 00:00 Start 00:03 THE tweet heard around the world 01:17 Tokens must be traded 07:36 BTC dominance 10:50 Pricing tokens 17:03 Apples to apples 20:44 VC is going to ZERO 37:09 Uniswap token 44:56 Different reality 50:14 Moving the goalpost 1:01:14 Infinite money printer 1:05:24 Who's the fool? 1:17:06 Claim on cashflows 1:24:53 Steel-man my argument 1:36:41 Investor protection 👋 The Gwart Show is sponsored by Ellipsis Labs. Ellipsis Labs is building Atlas, the blockchain purpose-built for verifiable finance. You may know of Ellipsis Labs by their first product Phoenix, a fully on-chain orderbook DEX that’s done over 50 billion dollars in unincentivized volume. They are one of the strongest teams I know in crypto. If you’re interested in working for a mission-driven company, Ellipsis Labs is hiring engineers passionate about crypto and finance to work on Atlas. You can learn more and apply on Ellipsis Labs’ Twitter “at Ellipsis_Labs”. Don’t forget to check out Atlas too, @atlasxyz on Twitter. Enjoy the show? Check out our website and newsletter by clicking here. Questions or want to sponsor? [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to the Gwart Show! Today we have Haseeb Qureshi and Tarun Chitra about whether VC-funded tokens are vaporware or valuable investments. They tackle fundamental questions about crypto market structure, token valuation models, and the long-term economics of L1 blockchains. Is there a carrying capacity for tokens? Are smart contract platforms overvalued? Will L1s converge to their utility value or maintain monetary premiums? Subscribe to the newsletter! https://newsletter.blockspacemedia.com # Notes: - Crypto market caps follow power law distribution - Solana valued at ~$80 billion despite skepticism - Stablecoin market grew from $130B to $240B - Bitcoin dominance may increase over time - Most tokens trending down in USD since launch - L1 valuation combines utility, equity & monetary use Timestamps: 00:00 Start 03:09 Infinite tokens - Haseeb 06:10 Infinite tokens - Gwart 09:55 Infinite tokens - discussion 11:47 How to value a token 21:32 Proof of stake 30:02 Staking pro & con 33:38 ETH value 35:18 ETH is money (or not) 39:20 Value of new L1s 44:44 ROI for tokens 46:33 REV 50:46 Payments.. meh 👋 The Gwart Show is sponsored by Ellipsis Labs. Ellipsis Labs is building Atlas, the blockchain purpose-built for verifiable finance. You may know of Ellipsis Labs by their first product Phoenix, a fully on-chain orderbook DEX that’s done over 50 billion dollars in unincentivized volume. They are one of the strongest teams I know in crypto. If you’re interested in working for a mission-driven company, Ellipsis Labs is hiring engineers passionate about crypto and finance to work on Atlas. You can learn more and apply on Ellipsis Labs’ Twitter “at Ellipsis_Labs”. Don’t forget to check out Atlas too, @atlasxyz on Twitter. Enjoy the show? Check out our website and newsletter by clicking here. Questions or want to sponsor? [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to The Gwart Show! Today, Jarry Xiao, co-founder and engineering lead at Ellipsis Labs, joins to chat tradfi to crypto infrastructure. Jarry dives deep into Phoenix, their central limit order book on Solana, and introduces Atlas - their purpose-built blockchain for financial applications. The conversation touches blockchain trading challenges, the economics of validator networks, and why truly effective trading systems require opinionated design. Follow our guest on Twitter! https://x.com/jarxiao?lang=en Subscribe to the newsletter! https://newsletter.blockspacemedia.com Notes: - Phoenix did $70B+ in organic trading volume - Solana's 400ms blocks still too slow for HFT - Atlas uses single verifiable sequencer model - Market makers need priority cancellations - Blockchain revenue sustainability questionable - MEV/sandwiching not sustainable for finance Timestamps: 00:00 Start 00:33 Who is Jarray? 01:09 TradFi experience 01:50 What was Jarry trading? 03:23 Phoenix order book 06:45 Aggregators 10:31 Open validator set blockchain 13:15 Market making on SOL 17:05 Atlas 20:57 Limitations of SOL 25:02 Rejecting SOL base assumptions 28:09 What does Atlas unlock? 34:46 Purpose built? 36:31 Opinion sequencing 37:53 Multiple use cases 42:37 Stock market on-chain 46:53 Why L2 sequencer design? 54:11 Memecoins here to stay 1:04:39 Why did it take so long? 👋 The Gwart Show is sponsored by Ellipsis Labs. Ellipsis Labs is building Atlas, the blockchain purpose-built for verifiable finance. You may know of Ellipsis Labs by their first product Phoenix, a fully on-chain orderbook DEX that’s done over 50 billion dollars in unincentivized volume. They are one of the strongest teams I know in crypto. If you’re interested in working for a mission-driven company, Ellipsis Labs is hiring engineers passionate about crypto and finance to work on Atlas. You can learn more and apply on Ellipsis Labs’ Twitter “at Ellipsis_Labs”. Don’t forget to check out Atlas too, @atlasxyz on Twitter. Enjoy the show? Check out our website and newsletter by clicking here. Questions or want to sponsor? [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to The Gwart Show! Today, @rajivpoc from @hiFramework joins us. We discuss the L1 trade narrative (“not cooked”), the influx of talented builders entering crypto, and dynamics between VCs and retail investors. Rajiv offers perspectives on Hyperliquid's success, the future of memecoins, and why Bitcoin-based financial products represent a massive opportunity. He also shares his optimistic outlook on washing away "grift" from the space while supporting serious builders with real business models. Subscribe to the newsletter! https://newsletter.blockspacemedia.com Timestamps: 00:00 Start 00:50 Who is Rajiv? 01:35 Venture capital vibes 04:26 What are builders focused on? 05:54 AI + Crypto = ? 07:51 What's Rajiv's specialty 09:54 Are L1 investments cooked? 13:49 Application development 16:16 Infra vs Apps definitions 19:19 Pump Swap 20:41 Are memecoins done? 22:42 Hyperliquid 27:48 Hyperliquid & VC funding 32:37 Direct investment 36:35 Investment time horizons 40:11 Tokens don't make assets NOT securities 43:46 Long TSLA at 75x leverage LFG 47:21 Where's the trade in stablecoins 49:35 VC gonna get REKT? 57:21 Bleeding value from tokens 1:01:20 Golden age of pump & dump 1:05:48 I WANT TO BELIVE 👋 The Gwart Show is sponsored by Ellipsis Labs. Ellipsis Labs is building Atlas, the blockchain purpose-built for verifiable finance. You may know of Ellipsis Labs by their first product Phoenix, a fully on-chain orderbook DEX that’s done over 50 billion dollars in unincentivized volume. They are one of the strongest teams I know in crypto. If you’re interested in working for a mission-driven company, Ellipsis Labs is hiring engineers passionate about crypto and finance to work on Atlas. You can learn more and apply on Ellipsis Labs’ Twitter “at Ellipsis_Labs”. Don’t forget to check out Atlas too, @atlasxyz on Twitter. Enjoy the show? Check out our website and newsletter by clicking here. Questions or want to sponsor? [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to The Gwart Show! Today, we are joined by Guy, the founder of Ethena, one of crypto's fastest-growing stablecoin projects, which reached $6 billion faster than any dollar-pegged asset in history. We discuss how Ethena's synthetic dollar works by capturing funding rates from perpetual futures markets, why they've embraced centralized exchanges while maintaining neutrality, and their ambitious new Converge blockchain. The conversation explores stablecoin competition, the limitations of decentralized approaches, and how they plan to bridge traditional finance with crypto through their partnership with Securitize. Subscribe to the newsletter! https://newsletter.blockspacemedia.com # Notes: - Ethena reached $6B faster than any dollar asset - Currently offering ~16% yield (avg 18% last year) - Uses Bitcoin perps funding rates for yield - Maintains neutrality across exchanges - Converge is launching with Securitize partnership - Looking to tokenize equities and T-bills Timestamps: 00:00 Start 00:19 Guy's background 03:11 What's Ethena? 04:52 What hasn't this been tried before? 06:50 Rival stablecoins 10:57 Where are the risks? 15:13 Hyperliquid cancels order 18:04 How to compete with other stablecoins 21:01 One stablecoins to rule them all! 22:47 Why no yeild yet? 24:54 Why USDE isn't for payments (yet) 27:25 Superiority of a yield asset 30:54 What is Converge? 34:16 Alt L1? 34:31 Why build a new chain? 37:51 ETH in stagnation? 39:43 Vitalik the business man? 41:35 ETH as collateral for stablecoins 43:58 RWAs 48:15 Regulatory capture 49:57 Why equities on-chain? 54:16 On-chain price discovery 56:47 Airdrops 58:52 AMMs 1:01:57 Perpetual Futures funding rates 1:06:54 Trading edge 1:07:39 Citadel 1:10:09 Payment for order flow 👋 The Gwart Show is sponsored by Ellipsis Labs. Ellipsis Labs is building Atlas, the blockchain purpose-built for verifiable finance. You may know of Ellipsis Labs by their first product Phoenix, a fully on-chain orderbook DEX that’s done over 50 billion dollars in unincentivized volume. They are one of the strongest teams I know in crypto. If you’re interested in working for a mission-driven company, Ellipsis Labs is hiring engineers passionate about crypto and finance to work on Atlas. You can learn more and apply on Ellipsis Labs’ Twitter “at Ellipsis_Labs”. Don’t forget to check out Atlas too, @atlasxyz on Twitter. Enjoy the show? Check out our website and newsletter by clicking here. Questions or want to sponsor? [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to The Gwart Show! Today, Andrew Bailey–fellow at the Bitcoin Policy Institute– joins Gwart to discuss Bitcoin's role as resistance money, the philosophical implications of cryptocurrency, and why simplicity might trump utility in digital assets.  Follow our guest on Twitter: @resistancemoney TOPICS -Bitcoin as Resistance Money -Philosophy in Cryptocurrency -Stablecoins vs Bitcoin -Ethical Money Creation -Future of Financial Freedom CHAPTERS 00:00 Start 01:07 Andrew bio 01:55 Why philosophy & Bitcoin? 04:26 Bitcoin background 06:31 What is resistance money? 07:14 Why is this book important? 10:24 Examples of BTC as resistance money 13:14 Tron is the People's Blockchain 18:12 ETH as alternative 20:48 Long EVM, Short ETH 32:40 What new-coiners care about 35:27 The philosophy of ETH 36:07 Vitalik's writing 41:50 Legitimate use cases 46:13 What is "utility"? 51:21 Lightning & MoE 54:16 What crypto tech should come to BTC? 1:03:05 Worldcoin 1:09:17 Effective altruism 1:14:16 Ends justify means? 1:17:28 When David Hoffman cries 👋 The Gwart Show is sponsored by Ellipsis Labs. Ellipsis Labs is building Atlas, the blockchain purpose-built for verifiable finance. You may know of Ellipsis Labs by their first product Phoenix, a fully on-chain orderbook DEX that’s done over 50 billion dollars in unincentivized volume. They are one of the strongest teams I know in crypto. If you’re interested in working for a mission-driven company, Ellipsis Labs is hiring engineers passionate about crypto and finance to work on Atlas. You can learn more and apply on Ellipsis Labs’ Twitter “at Ellipsis_Labs”. Don’t forget to check out Atlas too, @atlasxyz on Twitter. Enjoy the show? Check out our website and newsletter by clicking here. Questions or want to sponsor? [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to The Gwart Show! Today, Willem from Botanix Labs joins us to discuss their pioneering "spider chain" approach for Bitcoin's second layer. Unlike traditional rollups, Botanix creates a decentralized network of multi-sig validators to bring EVM capabilities to Bitcoin while maintaining censorship resistance. Willem explains why decentralization matters for DeFi applications, how their validator system works with Bitcoin staking, and why they've chosen a different path than rollups. With mainnet launch planned for Q2, Botanix aims to enable Bitcoin holders to use their BTC in familiar DeFi applications without sacrificing security. Subscribe to the newsletter! https://newsletter.blockspacemedia.com Notes: - Spider chains prioritize decentralization over speed - Botanix launching mainnet in Q2 2025 - Initial 15 validators expanding to hundreds - Block time is 5 seconds with ~$0.01 fees - Uses Bitcoin as gas fee, no separate token - Validators will stake 3-5 BTC as bond Timestamps: 00:00 Start 00:21 Intro 01:04 Spiderchain 02:20 Proof of stake on layer 2 06:14 Risk vs reward 08:02 Spiderchain vs rollup 14:55 BitVM 16:42 ZK tech 20:34 Data availability w/ Spierchains 21:25 Data on Bitcoin chain 22:13 Alt DA 24:23 Updates on Botanix 26:47 Wen token? 28:00 Primary users? 30:27 Block interval 30:50 Decentralization design limits 32:55 Fees 33:43 Porting ETH apps to Botanix 34:52 Bitcoin staking 36:34 EVM wallet compatibility 37:28 Place in L2 ecosystem 39:35 Functional BitVM rollup? 40:32 Changes to BTC 41:16 L2 protocol consensus? 42:17 Social consensus in BTC 45:49 Ordinals & Runes 👋 The Gwart Show is sponsored by Ellipsis Labs. Ellipsis Labs is building Atlas, the blockchain purpose-built for verifiable finance. You may know of Ellipsis Labs by their first product Phoenix, a fully on-chain orderbook DEX that’s done over 50 billion dollars in unincentivized volume. They are one of the strongest teams I know in crypto. If you’re interested in working for a mission-driven company, Ellipsis Labs is hiring engineers passionate about crypto and finance to work on Atlas. You can learn more and apply on Ellipsis Labs’ Twitter “at Ellipsis_Labs”. Don’t forget to check out Atlas too, @atlasxyz on Twitter. Enjoy the show? Check out our website and newsletter by clicking here. Questions or want to sponsor? [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to The Gwart Show! Today, Alex Gladstein, Chief Strategy Officer at the Human Rights Foundation, joins us to discuss how Bitcoin functions as essential "money dictators can't stop" for human rights activists worldwide. With nearly 18 years at HRF, Alex shares fascinating stories of Bitcoin adoption in authoritarian regimes, his journey from skeptic to advocate, and why Bitcoin—not general "crypto"—provides the unique properties needed for financial freedom in oppressive environments. He explores privacy solutions, scaling challenges, and the future of complementary technologies like ecash and Nostr. Follow Alex on Twitter: @gladstein Notes: - HRF quarterly Bitcoin grants - The "currency of activists" - Most global humanitarian funding stays in free countries - Alex’s "Check Your Financial Privilege" book - Bitcoin users in Malawi upgrading from saving with goats - Stablecoins are primarily valuable when permissionless Timestamps: 00:00 Start 00:30 Alex intro 11:48 HRF Bitcoin focus 17:08 Current projects 21:55 Cross border vs circular economies 27:30 Stablecoins 38:17 Bitcoin privacy 45:59 Covenants 51:17 Education is lagging 55:24 Does "crypto" have value? 1:02:31 NOSTR 👋 The Gwart Show is sponsored by Ellipsis Labs. Ellipsis Labs is building Atlas, the blockchain purpose-built for verifiable finance. You may know of Ellipsis Labs by their first product Phoenix, a fully on-chain orderbook DEX that’s done over 50 billion dollars in unincentivized volume. They are one of the strongest teams I know in crypto. If you’re interested in working for a mission-driven company, Ellipsis Labs is hiring engineers passionate about crypto and finance to work on Atlas. You can learn more and apply on Ellipsis Labs’ Twitter “at Ellipsis_Labs”. Don’t forget to check out Atlas too, @atlasxyz on Twitter. Enjoy the show? Check out our website and newsletter by clicking here. Questions or want to sponsor? [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices