6. Closure Doesn't Exist

Between 1977 and 1989, a dozen people died under mysterious circumstances, with one thing in common: a spiritual leader named Terri Hoffman. Join investigative reporter Jonathan Hirsch as he unravels the web of lies, manipulation, and dubious deeds that surround Hoffman on Scary Terri - A dark Texas Gothic about the Charlie Manson you’ve never heard of. Search for Scary Terri wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes right now, completely ad-free. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Driskill is in jail ahead of a potential court case when an informant comes forward with information that seems to blow a hole in his claims of innocence. Meanwhile James Holland moves on to his next case. It’s a story with eerie similarities to Driskill’s. Another veteran, Christopher Ax, is being investigated for the murder of a woman. But this time, things turn out very differently for Holland, and the first cracks start to appear in his legend. Driskill is desperate for help and writes a hail-Mary letter to the Innocence Project of Texas. Subscribe to The Binge to get all episodes of Smoke Screen: Just Say You’re Sorry ad-free right now. Click ‘Subscribe’ at the top of the Smoke Screen show page on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access wherever you get your podcasts. A Somethin’ Else, The Marshall Project & Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Driskill’s lawyers discover that he is theoretically eligible for parole after serving seven years of his sentence. But this is a long shot — it's notoriously difficult to get released whilst still maintaining your innocence. Chammah talks to a leading cold case prosecutor to ask how interrogations like Holland’s can be justified. And he seeks to understand the pain that Bobbie Sue Hill’s family will be confronted with if Driskill is cleared. Everyone is waiting for the parole board’s decision. Subscribe to The Binge to get all episodes of Smoke Screen: Just Say You’re Sorry ad-free right now. Click ‘Subscribe’ at the top of the Smoke Screen show page on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access wherever you get your podcasts. A Somethin’ Else, The Marshall Project & Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A young law student called Ashely is the first to read Driskill’s letter and becomes obsessed with his story. The Innocence Project of Texas take his case and begin working to find evidence that could clear his name. Chammah hunts down crucial leads throwing serious doubt on the informant’s story and on the forensic sketch that led Holland to Driskill in the first place. Holland's star, though, is still rising. He takes on a case that will make him famous, drawing dozens of confessions from America’s most prolific serial killer, Samuel Little. Subscribe to The Binge to get all episodes of Smoke Screen: Just Say You’re Sorry ad-free right now. Click ‘Subscribe’ at the top of the Smoke Screen show page on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access wherever you get your podcasts. A Somethin’ Else, The Marshall Project & Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's Day 2 of Holland’s interrogation of Driskill. Over the course of several hours Holland uses a variety of extreme but legal tactics as he chases a confession. He lies to Driskill about the evidence they have against him and feeds the veteran a story to explain how he might have come to murder Bobbie Sue Hill. Holland is relentless and the interrogation stretches on, with no lawyer present. How long can Driskill resist? Subscribe to The Binge to get all episodes of Smoke Screen: Just Say You’re Sorry ad-free right now. Click ‘Subscribe’ at the top of the Smoke Screen show page on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access wherever you get your podcasts. A Somethin’ Else, The Marshall Project & Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Chammah investigates the cop at the centre of the story — James Holland is so celebrated as an interrogator that he’s known in the media as "the serial killer whisperer." He’s a leading member of that legendary and storied police force, the Texas Rangers. Chammah traces Holland’s steps as he starts trying to close a cold case which has gone unsolved for more than a decade: the murder of a woman named Bobbie Sue Hill. The trail is faint but Holland follows it doggedly: a dead-end suspect, a single witness, and finally a forensic sketch which leads him to Driskill’s door. Subscribe to The Binge to get all episodes of Smoke Screen: Just Say You're Sorry ad-free right now. Click ‘Subscribe’ at the top of the Smoke Screen show page on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access wherever you get your podcasts. A Somethin’ Else, The Marshall Project & Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Texas Ranger James Holland approaches Air Force veteran Larry Driskill and asks him for help with a murder case. These are the first moments in a psychological battle that will end in Driskill confessing to a brutal killing. All while swearing he doesn’t remember the crime. Incredibly, the whole thing is caught on tape. Through Holland's recordings, journalist Maurice Chammah follows the men into the interrogation room... Subscribe to The Binge to get all episodes of Smoke Screen: Just Say You're Sorry ad-free right now. Click ‘Subscribe’ at the top of the Smoke Screen show page on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access wherever you get your podcasts. A Somethin’ Else, The Marshall Project & Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Texas Ranger James Holland is celebrated as the ‘serial killer whisperer’, solving dozens of murders through his legendary interrogation skills. But how far does he go to get confessions? And has he put innocent people in prison along the way? Smoke Screen: Just Say You're Sorry uses shocking police tapes to reveal the psychological drama behind one murder case, and uncovers something rotten at the heart of the justice system. Subscribe to The Binge to get all episodes of Smoke Screen ad-free right now. Click ‘Subscribe’ at the top of the Smoke Screen: Just Say You’re Sorry show page on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access wherever you get your podcasts. A Somethin’ Else, The Marshall Project & Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices