Episode 89. Göttingen Physics: Tim Salditt, Kurt Schönhammer, & Sarah Köster

In prior episodes, we examined political interference and bias in science in a few contexts, including episode 3 on the history of U.S. congressional attacks on science, episode 57 on types of bias, episode 65 on ideology and science, and episode 84 on the academy's ideological march to the left and antisemitism on American college campuses. Since those episodes, America went back to the future with the election for the second time of Donald Trump, and the Trump Administration has attacked elite American universities such as Columbia and Harvard with historic intensity. These attacks are motivated by the right's revulsion with the dominance of leftist bias on these universities. We do not know what the outcome of these battles will be. Indeed, as of this recording, Harvard University is challenging the Trump Administration in the American courts, while many other universities are trying to placate the administration or avoid its gaze. However, the fundamental complaint by the right, that elite universities have become bastions of the left and lack diversity of thought, warrants an examination. In today's episode, I explore this topic with my brother Bill. We discuss how political bias distorts the science produced in universities, especially in the social sciences, and we discuss the implications. Bill is the author of over 150 articles in psychology, as well as the books The Social Leap, published in 2018, and The Social Paradox, published in 2025, both by Harper Collins Publishers.

In prior episodes, I have interviewed many people about the history of physics and physics-adjacent topics such as nuclear disarmament. Many of the physicists we have discussed also made forays into biology. Today I explore this transition of physicists working in biology with William Lanouette. Bill is a writer and public policy analyst who has specialized in the history of nuclear energy and nuclear weapons.

Prior to the rise of Nazism, the University of Göttingen hosted most of the top physicists in the world, either as resident or visiting scientists. With us to discuss the history of physics in Göttingen are Tim Salditt, Kurt Schönhammer, and Sarah Köster. In this conversation over tea at the University of Göttingen, we discuss how Göttingen became a focal point of physics, key moments and people during the decades that Göttingen hosted discovery after discovery, and what happened to the assembly of scholars in Göttingen as Germany descended into the abyss of fascism. Tim Salditt and Sarah Köster are both professors of experimental physics in the Institute for X-Ray Physics, and Kurt Schönhammer is a retired Professor from the Institute for Theoretical Physics.

The history of science is punctuated by moments of technological innovation that produce a paradigm shift and a subsequent flurry of discovery. A recent technological innovation that generated diverse discoveries, ranging from a profound shift in our understanding of the origin of humanity to a seismic change in the criminal justice system, is the polymerase chain reaction, or PCR. With us to discuss the history of PCR is one of its innovators, Henry Erlich. As Director of the Human Genetics Department at Cetus Corporation and later as Director of Human Genetics and Vice President of Exploratory Research at Roche Molecular Systems, Henry led developments in diagnostic applications for infectious and autoimmune diseases, forensic genetics, and organ transplantation. His laboratory performed the first forensic DNA case in the United States in 1986 and the first DNA-based post-conviction exoneration. Henry has published over 450 journal articles and three books, which include PCR Technology: Principles and Applications for DNA Amplification, Silent Witness: Forensic DNA Analysis in Criminal Investigations and Humanitarian Disasters, and Genetic Reconstruction of the Past: DNA Analysis in Forensics and Human Evolution. Henry has received numerous awards, including the Association for Molecular Pathology Award for Excellence (2000) and the Profiles in DNA Courage Award (National Institute of Justice, 2005).

Lise Meitner was the most important female physicist of the 20th century. She made fundamental discoveries on the atom, including, most famously, being the first to discover the idea of fission. This she did as she puzzled over experimental results generated by her colleague Otto Hahn. Hahn, but not Meitner, received the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for this monumental discovery. More generally, Meitner overcame profound obstacles facing women in science to become a central figure in physics during its heyday as she worked with the likes of Niels Bohr and Albert Einstein to understand the atom, and hence the universe. With us to discuss the life and legacy of Lise Meitner is Marissa Moss. Marissa is the award-winning author and illustrator of over 70 books for children and young adults, including the book we discuss today, The Woman Who Split the Atom: The Life of Lise Meitner.

Humanity's understanding of the universe radically altered with the advent of quantum mechanics in the early 20th century. The theory of quantum mechanics describes how nature behaves at or below the scale of atoms, and the road to that theory was littered with seemingly insurmountable obstacles. With us to discuss the development of quantum mechanics, and the major schools of thought represented by Neils Bohr and Albert Einstein, is Jim Baggott. Today we discuss many of the key players in the development of quantum mechanics, including Bohr, Einstein, Wolfgang Pauli, Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger, Max Planck, and Max Born.

Societal problems big and small typically have a scientific element, often in a central way, yet most scientists are not directly involved in policy. My guests sought to change that in 1969 when they created the Stanford Workshops on Social and Political Issues, or SWOPSI. SWOPSI was founded by three students, two of whom are with us today: Joel Primack and Robert Jaffe. The third student was Joyce Kobayashi. Also with us today is my uncle Frank, who worked on some of the early SWOPSI initiatives. In this episode, I ask Joel, Bob and Frank: How did they hack Stanford's rules for course credit to create workshops run by graduate students? What were the goals of SWOPSI? How effective were the workshops in tackling local vs. national or international problems? How did SWOPSI help to create programs for scientists to advise Congress on technical issues? Why did SWOPSI perish as an institution at Stanford? How has US military-sponsored research evolved since the Second World War? And is SWOPSI a good model for young scientists today who want to solve societal problems?

Institutions of higher education, especially in the United States, have received a great deal of attention over the past two generations regarding their ideological march to the left, and the impacts, real or imagined, on society at large. Criticism of American universities has sharpened since Oct. 7, 2023, as the Hamas attack on Israel was closely followed by campus protests against Israel. The ensuing turmoil resulted in the temporary closure of campuses, the resignations of college presidents, the cancellations of speakers and commencement ceremonies, and congressional investigations. How did American universities get to this moment? What are the implications for free speech, social cohesion, and democracy? And what are the repercussions for scholarship and science? My guest, Bret Stephens, has written extensively on the state of American universities, illiberalism, and antisemitism. Bret worked as an assistant editor at Commentary magazine from 1995-1996, after which he moved to the Wall Street Journal. From 2002-2004, Bret served as the editor-in-chief of The Jerusalem Post, where he oversaw the most comprehensive overhaul of the paper's content in its 70-year history. He then returned to the Wall Street Journal, where he won the 2013 Pulitzer Prize for Commentary. Bret moved to The New York Times in 2017, where he writes as an opinion columnist. He is also a contributor to NBC News and MSNBC, a contributing editor for Commentary magazine, and the editor-in-chief of SAPIR: A Journal of Jewish Conversations.

What was the Western World's understanding of the origins of humanity prior to the Enlightenment? Why did Christopher Columbus have a Hebrew speaker on his voyages of exploration? Why did the American universities founded before the Revolution have Hebrew in their curriculum? What role did linguistics play in the late 19th century modernization of the Hebrew language? What does the literary critic Edmund Wilson have to do with the science of archeology? Finally, and unrelated to science, how did the soft power of the arts - including music, theater, dance, film, literature, and television - help to shape the relationship between the United States and Israel? With us to answer this eclectic set of questions is Shalom Goldman. Shalom is the Pardon Tillinghast Professor of Religion at Middlebury College.

Archeology is the science that most directly connects us with our past, and no city in the world has been subject to more archeological interest than Jerusalem. With us to explore the archeology of Jerusalem is Jodi Magness. Jodi is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Since 2002, she has been the Kenan Distinguished Professor for Teaching Excellence in Early Judaism in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Jodi's research interests focus on Palestine in the Roman, Byzantine, and early Islamic periods, and Diaspora Judaism in the Roman world. She has studied ancient pottery, ancient synagogues, Jerusalem, Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Roman army in the East. Today we discuss her most recent book, Jerusalem Through the Ages: From Its Beginnings to the Crusades, published in 2024 by Oxford University Press.