Adam Schiff on AI regulation, free speech, and impeaching Trump one more time

California Sen. Adam Schiff sits on a bunch of the committees that do tech and AI oversight, so I really wanted to ask him about how we might regulate anything related to the tech industry at this moment in time. He started our conversation by talking about the self-dealing and corruption present all through our politics now — right against the backdrop of President Trump gathering AI CEOs to the White House to pinky-swear they'll try to keep AI safe. Links:  How tech will self-police AI safety under Trump deal | The Verge Supreme Court ruling kneecaps federal regulators | The Verge Does AI need an antitrust exemption so it doesn’t kill everyone?  | Decoder Flock, Axon dodge Senate hearing | CNBC Trump admin illegally blacklisted Anthropic, court rules  | The Verge Decoder is a Signal Awards finalist in the Business category! You can vote to help us win here.  Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everybody, it’s Nilay. We’ve got a little bonus drop for you today — I was recently interviewed about AI safety by Shumita Basu for Apple News In Conversation, and I enjoyed the conversation so much I asked if we could share it with you all.  We’ve actually got a few bonus drops coming up this month; we’ve been having a lot of great conversations lately, and we want to get them out to you on the news cycle. And of course, nothing is moving as fast as the AI safety news cycle. So enjoy this one, and we’ll see you next time. Links:  Apple News In Conversation | Apple Podcasts Inside the suddenly explosive world of AI safety | The Verge Here’s what AI leaders are saying about Trump’s new safety plan | The Verge One company is at the center of a wave of rogue AI attacks | The Verge Microsoft AI CEO says AI threats are real, and Anthropic is making it worse | Decoder Does AI need an antitrust exemption so it doesn’t kill everyone? | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. The show is edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m talking with Josh Dzieza, a longtime features writer here at The Verge, about a massive data center in Utah that does not exist, might never exist, and yet has already completely reshaped the politics of the entire state.  Josh just published a major feature this week on the struggling Stratos data center project in Utah backed by Shark Tank star Kevin O’Leary. So I invited Josh on the show to discuss what’s happening inside the AI industry’s infrastructure boom, inside the bipartisan backlash to data centers, and how the tech industry is running into the one obstacle it can’t seem to spend its way out of: local democracy.  Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠. Links:  The People of Utah vs. Kevin O'Leary | The Verge Adams — burdened by data center fallout — ousted by voters | Salt Lake Tribune ‘Shark Tank’ star sued by opponents he claimed were foreign agents| NYT Fox News apologizes for airing O’Leary claims about data centers | The Hill Kevin O’Leary agrees to downsize massive Utah data center | The Verge The biggest data center ever is becoming a huge problem in Utah | The Verge America's data center future is Loudoun County's past | The Verge The left and right agree on one thing: no data centers | Decoder Decoder is a Signal Awards finalist in the Business category! You can vote to help us win ⁠here⁠. Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Mike Cannon-Brookes, who is co-founder and CEO of Atlassian. Atlassian is one of those companies that every other company runs on — it makes important platform tools like Jira and Trello. This means Atlassian is also right in the middle of the way AI is changing how all these companies work.  Or, if you buy the idea of the so-called SaaSpocalypse, AI might just build all of these tools for you, destroying this entire category of businesses. Obviously, Mike had a lot of thoughts pushing back on this narrative, so we spent time really digging in and talking through what AI is doing to enterprise software.  Links:  How Australia became the test bed for tech regulation | Decoder (2021) Building a $45B company far from Silicon Valley’s ‘froth and bubbles’ | Semafor Atlassian CEO Mike Cannon-Brookes on Atlassian and AI | Stratechery How Atlassian shook off the 'SaaSpocalypse' for a big rally  | IBD Atlassian acquires The Browser Company, maker of the Arc browser | The Verge Atlassian Co-CEO resigns, leaving Cannon-Brookes as sole chief | Bloomberg Atlassian cuts 1,600 jobs amid AI push | Forbes Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinde Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Cloudflare discovered in June that bots already make up more than half of internet traffic — and CEO Matthew Prince says that bots could outnumber humans a thousand to one within five years. That's a huge change to the internet, and if the web is going to keep existing, it needs a huge change to its business model. Can Cloudflare use its place in the ecosystem to direct the money back to the people who make content? Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  How I choose which Cloudflare employees to replace with AI | Wall Street Journal Why Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince is the internet’s unlikely defender | Decoder (2024) Cloudflare will now block AI crawlers by default | The Verge Patreon partners with Cloudflare to block AI crawlers | 404 Media Sony and Warner sue Anthropic in latest AI music lawsuit | Billboard Trump administration supports OpenAI in NYT copyright lawsuit  | The Verge Google Zero is here — now what? | The Verge (2024) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s a big week for Meta. The company has its big Connect conference, and the new Muse AI agent appears to be an early hit. CEO Mark Zuckerberg has been doing a lot of interviews about it all — so of course we asked for him to be on Decoder. Meta declined, for whatever reason.  But luckily Mark just did a big interview with our friend and former colleague Alex Heath on the Sources podcast. So I figured we could highlight some moments from that conversation to point out some obvious gaps in what Mark is saying about Meta and hopefully inspire the next set of people who talk to him with some follow-up questions. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Mark Zuckerberg interview | Sources Podcast How Meta got everything it wanted in secret data center deal | New York Times Can you forget how you feel about Meta? | The Verge Zuck doesn’t want to press pause on AI | The Verge Meta glasses are a workplace menace | The Verge Mark Zuckerberg doesn’t understand how to live | The Verge Four takeaways from Mark Zuckerberg’s massive AI manifesto | The Verge Meta says US states are seeking $1.4 trillion in penalties  | Reuters Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Bloomberg’s Mark Gurman, who is the world’s best-sourced Apple reporter. Earlier this month, Apple hosted its annual iPhone hardware event, and this event was special, for a number of reasons.  It was new Apple CEO John Ternus’ first major product launch. It was also the debut of the foldable iPhone Duo. So I wanted Mark on the show to explain why this event was so important, and how John Ternus’ Apple will look a lot different from Tim Cook’s.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Apple iPhone Duo launch event: the 5 biggest announcements | The Verge The iPhone Duo is Apple’s first foldable | The Verge Tim Cook’s CEO-like pay package shows he isn’t going anywhere | Bloomberg Apple’s Phil Schiller steps down from running App Store | Bloomberg Apple’s new CEO will need to soon overhaul his management team | Bloomberg Apple’s Ternus takes the reins as CEO, with AI as job No. 1 | Bloomberg Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The biggest story in tech right now is the spiraling debate about AI safety and regulation. The CEOs of all these companies have issued various calls to slow down development and develop regulation, including asking for antitrust exemptions so they can all coordinate on safety issues. So to make sense of it all, I called Jonathan Kanter, the former antitrust chief for the U.S. Department of Justice in the Biden Administration. There's a lot going on, and we really got into the weeds of how all this regulation might work, and how it might interact with antitrust law, competition policy, and our relationship with China. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Is Big Tech’s AI slowdown a safety pact or a cartel? | The Verge Inside the suddenly explosive world of AI safety | The Verge Execs and politicians on slowing down AI development | The Verge Microsoft AI CEO: AI threats are real, Anthropic makes it worse | The Verge Lina Khan: We don’t need new laws to prosecute AI CEOs | Gizmodo Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. As you’re no doubt aware, the biggest story in tech right now is the spiraling debate about AI safety and regulation. So I really wanted to talk to Mustafa about what he thinks is real and not in AI safety, whether the concept of alignment itself is up to the task, and whether this industry needs to slow down before it kills us all.  Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠. Links:  A warning about ‘model welfare’ | Mustafa Suleyman Humanist AI Code of Conduct | Microsoft Is Big Tech’s AI slowdown a safety pact or a cartel? | The Verge A brief history of AI executives calling for regulation | The Verge What execs and politicians are saying about slowing down AI development | The Verge Anthropic CEO says it’s time to pump the brakes on AI | The Verge Microsoft’s AI chief says superintelligence is near, but won’t take your job | Decoder (2026) Mustafa Suleyman says conversational AI is the next web browser | Decoder (2024) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Adam Conover is a familiar face to anyone who’s spent time on the internet. He got his start at CollegeHumor back in the day, before transitioning into cable TV with Adam Ruins Everything, then onto Netflix, and all the way back to YouTube again, where he posts videos and hosts a podcast. That is exactly the kind of career path that fascinates me, and it also happens to touch on basically every major Decoder theme there is.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  YouTube is making it harder to earn money on YouTube | The Verge Adam Conover regrets shilling Sam Altman’s World | The Verge Elon Musk is an idiot | Adam Conover How HBO’s creatives survived corporate chaos | Decoder YouTube’s Neal Mohan on the future for creators | Decoder (2021) Banning Trump was the right decision, says Instagram’s Mosseri | Decoder (2021) Ethics in journalism, with Ben Smith | Decoder Hank Green will gladly take billionaires’ money for education | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices