168: Vibe Coding In The Real World (Ft. Crema's Senior Devs)

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.peopleofproduct.us

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.peopleofproduct.us

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.peopleofproduct.us

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.peopleofproduct.us

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.peopleofproduct.us

The dangerous gap between “like” and “buy”It’s safe to say that Mark’s career has given him a well-rounded perspective. He’s built products, sold products, serviced products, and advised on products in the cybersecurity space. This 360-degree view has made one tough, but important truth obvious:“People can say that they like what you do, but that’s very, very different than them getting out of their pocketbook and spending money on it. That is two different scenarios, completely different scenarios.”This is how it goes in many social or professional settings - people are nice. They will be supportive, offer suggestions, say that it’s great and never buy. Mark learned to find design partners who would be brutally honest about budget, replacement vs. net-new spend, and whether they’d actually pull the trigger.120 CISOs in six monthsWhen building Secure Blueprint, Mark didn’t send out async surveys or run a few user interviews. He talked to 120 CISOs over a 6-month period. It’s worth noting that in these conversations, he wasn’t asking about UI preferences, he was mapping their operational reality:Budget cycles and how they allocate CapEx vs. OpExHow they report progress to boardsHow products fit into maturity assessment processesThe goal is to understand if your product would be integrated into daily workflows or become a “once a month nice-to-have.” The former gets adopted. The latter gets churned.The vaporware marketWith 10,000+ cybersecurity products in the market, Mark sees a bit of an ugly pattern. There’s quite a bit of ‘buzzword bingo’ and empty promises make it nearly impossible for customers to identify real innovation.“You can have to wade through all of the vaporware. And when you sort of peel it back, there’s nothing there. Literally, like there’s nothing there. Or what they claim is literally not accurate.”Everyone is slapping “AI-powered” or “cloud-native” on their pitch decks. CISOs wade through pitch after pitch, and even 25-year industry veterans like Mark get confused by the marketing fodder.Simplicity could be your competitive advantageCISOs speak one language to their technical teams and another to the board. If they can’t translate your value prop up the chain for budget approval, your product dies.“The more you simplify things, the more you can amplify things. If you overcomplicate things because it’s a tech sell, then as soon as the technical seller goes up for budget, you lose translation.”Proximity to customers creates velocityMark has led both massive teams and small ones. His current approach at Evolve favors small, senior teams — not because small is necessarily better, but because proximity to customers creates speed.“The more layers you have, the further away they are to the customer and the farther away they are to the purpose.”When developers see client data in real-time and make decisions based on what’s happening right in front of them, they don’t wait for tickets. They solve problems.TL;DR: Build at the intersectionCybersecurity products succeed when they balance technical depth, business viability, and operational reality. Stay close to customers, simplify ruthlessly, and know the difference between someone thinking something is interesting vs. handing you a credit card.hnical depth, business viability, and operational reality. Stay close to customers, simplify ruthlessly, and know the difference between "that's interesting" and "here's my credit card." This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.peopleofproduct.us

What if fear isn’t the enemy of growth, but a compass pointing toward where you ought to go next? Aaron Nordyke, Head of Product at Drypowder, has built his career by leaning into discomfort rather than avoiding it. From engineering leadership to his first product role at a pre-seed startup, Aaron shares how emotions signal professional values, why balanced teams outperform individual expertise, and how trust is built through daily consistency rather than grand gestures. This is a testament for product leaders who see fear as information rather than an obstacle in the way.Fear as a kind of north starMost people run from fear, but Aaron Nordyke has learned to follow it. He’s learned, especially over the last couple of years, that emotions are our friends. They’re trying to tell us something, trying to tell us what we value.When his former boss offered him a product role despite having very little product experience, Aaron’s first instinct was panic. But he’s developed a different relationship with that discomfort: “I would use that fear to guide me toward learning as much as possible. I would grab what people consider the industry standard books, and I would pour through them and practice them.”This isn’t about being fearless! It’s about being fear-informed. For product leaders constantly facing the unknown, Aaron suggests looking for the opportunity to turn the anxiety into action. It isn’t always easy or natural, but it’s a positive and necessary response.The art of seeing and lifting othersDrawing from Carl Jung’s concept of the “King Archetype,” Aaron has developed a leadership philosophy centered on recognition rather than being recognized. “King energy is not about being seen. It’s about seeing others. You get out there specifically to see others, to see excellence, and to honor that excellence and lift it up.”This translates into specific practices, like monthly skip-level meetings where you could tell you group things that are impressing you, that certain people are doing. The goal is providing encouragement: “If you tell somebody that what you’re doing is what I want you to continue doing. That is constructive feedback that gives them certainty they are on the right path.”Aaron believes that this approach addresses a universal truth: Where everyone is a beginner, everyone is a little bit scared. By creating space for people to feel safe in their uncertainty, he’s seen teams consistently flourish across different technical domains.Trust as your only currencyIn the high-stakes world of startups, Aaron abides by Reid Hoffman’s definition of trust: “consistency over time.” This isn’t about grand gestures, rather, it’s about daily deposits. Every single time that you meet that expectation, a trust deposit is made. “You’re putting a marble in the jar,” referencing Brené Brown’s marble jar concept.For early-stage companies like Drypowder, this patience can feel counterintuitive. “Unfortunately, we’re not very patient when we’re trying to fundraise and get our early customers.” But Aaron understands the math: “You can’t withdraw from something that they don’t know.” In other words, you have to make trust deposits before you can ask for customer feedback, team commitment, or investor confidence.The compound effect is powerful. When you’ve built that consistency, you can expect that it will be done again. In a world where everyone can create products, trust becomes the ultimate differentiator.TLDR; Fear isn’t your enemy! It’s your compass for professional growth. Build teams around complementary strengths, not individual perfection. Create certainty for others by consistently recognizing their excellence. And remember: trust is built through daily consistency, not grand gestures. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.peopleofproduct.us

Even the sharpest product managers can fall into the “project manager” trap. Jason Houseworth, CPO at OpenLane, believes it’s happening in the industry more than PMs care to admit. In this episode, hear Jason’s view on why people tend to get caught up in managing activities instead of creating value. We cover using AI as a collaboration partner (instead of a tool), thinking like an entrepreneur in an enterprise environment, and getting uncomfortably close to the user. A killer combo to create value for your business.Lean fully into the “value creator” mindsetJason doesn't love the title "product manager" - and he’s got good reason. He's seen too many people fall into the trap of simply managing activities. It’s ironically one of the primary reasons PMs like differentiating themselves from project managers. But how well are we doing this as an industry?“I don't want people to be a manager. I prefer just the term value creator, because that's what I expect people to pursue. I want you to create the fastest path to the most value. And what that means is you have to understand the user need you're solving for, and ultimately the value that you're creating for them.”Activity does not equal benefit or value. As Jason reminds us, product managers can get endorphins by going down the checklist, but that does not mean that what you're actually doing is creating value for the end user.2 traps that inhibit product excellence* Letting others interpret your data - Whether it's qualitative feedback from users or quantitative insights from analytics, Jason believes product people need to get their hands dirty. "You need to be the one who is exploring the data and really pulling the thread in Domo or Mixpanel... You have to be there. You have to get your hands dirty."* Using AI as just a tool - The mistake isn't using AI, it's thinking of it as just another tool. Really unlocking AI comes from thinking about it the same way you would a teammate or a collaboration partner.Innovation = Proximity + SpeedJason thinks of innovation as being relatively simple.“If you take the people who are solving the need and you get 'em as close to the customer as possible, and then you shorten the iterations... then that, to me is really how you innovate. Because you're staying really close. You're listening and you're releasing a lot."Even in enterprise environments, Jason advocates thinking like an entrepreneur. "I strongly believe that even if you're working for a large enterprise, you've gotta think like an entrepreneur. You've gotta think small."Building psychological safetyDrawing from Google's Project Aristotle research, George & Jason talk about how the perfect teams aren’t what you'd necessarily expect."Do you think that the perfect team had the smartest people? No. And was it the overachievers? No. It was the people who were really good at reading into other people.”This goes back to building psychological safety - environments where people trust each other enough to take risks and speak up regardless of hierarchy. In an environment where people trust one another, guess what happens? You feel like you can take risks. You can raise a challenge, talk about what is or isn't gonna work, and why.What's exciting about the futureJason's most excited about the democratization of prototyping through AI. His 21-year-old son built an entire platform in six hours using AI tools, got feedback from a Reddit community, and had paying customers within weeks. Gen Z and those that follow have been born into an age with miraculous technologies, and some are seizing the opportunity to do some neat things."To see somebody who understands how to build software, but to then be able to create something that solved a need so quickly and get feedback on it and know the parts that it's just kind of a tool that people aren't interested in... To be able to iterate like that in days because of generative AI. That's really exciting."People of Product is brought to you by Crema - a design & technology consultancy This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.peopleofproduct.us

Description: Most companies jump straight to AI use cases, whereas Dan Williamson at Ryan Companies US, Inc. started with education first. Rather than chasing the bells and whistles or sexy use cases, his team focused on helping people rethink their roles and understand how this tech will change their work.Dan explains why he looks for willing business partners instead of fighting resistance, how rockstar superintendents became his best AI evangelists, and what happens when you prioritize eliminating the bane of most people's day over shiny objects.Education over bells and whistlesDan's approach to AI implementation at Ryan Companies flips the typical playbook. Instead of leading with sexy use cases, his team made an unexpected choice."One of the biggest things we did from a strategic standpoint related to AI wasn't all the bells and whistles - which use cases are you going after, what's the sexy thing you're doing right now? It was honestly communicating and educating with our company, giving them the right education, giving them a foundational understanding in order for them to rethink about their roles and rethink about how this technology will change their work. Because it ultimately will."A three-module curriculum that he proved worksWorking with the University of Minnesota, Dan built a practical education framework:* Hour-long fundamentals: "Give them semantics to talk about the words, to understand and read an article better. Remove that fog, the unknown unknowns."* 90-minute hands-on: "I have this suspicion that no one takes the time for themselves unless you tell them to do it. If I were to give them an enterprise chatbot license and say 'go take 90 minutes and tinker,' they're not going to protect that time. So we protect that time for them."* Design thinking workshop: "We've given individuals a new toolset and new language to think about innovation, but we haven't taught them how to innovate and change."Finding willing partners, not fighting resistanceDan's change management philosophy is refreshingly honest: "I truly look for partners in the business who are willing to come on that journey. There are areas where there's been resistance, and that's just maybe not where we started. That doesn't mean we won't get there, but we're trying to prioritize the partners at Ryan who are really willing to go on the journey with us."His approach involves getting on job sites: "We've tried to engage and empathize with our business partners as much as possible—getting on the job site, having them tell us their problems, listening really intently and coming at those problems with a different perspective."The best ambassadors aren't who you think"The best sellers of those ideas in domains where I'm not the expert—if I have our rockstar superintendents going out and selling the use cases we have, that's going to be a huge win. I hope it's them finding the value and driving that narrative more than I am."TLDR: Start with people, not technologyDan's approach proves that successful AI transformation requires treating it as a human challenge first, technical challenge second. Key lessons:* Education beats evangelism - Build foundational understanding before pushing use cases* Find willing partners - Work with early adopters rather than fighting resistance* Create internal champions - Your best evangelists are domain experts, not tech teams* Protect learning time - People won't make time for AI exploration unless you structure it.People of Product is brought to you by Crema - a design & technology consultancy This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.peopleofproduct.us

Description: Designers are coding, engineers are writing specs, and product managers are prototyping with tools that didn't exist 3 months ago. Julia Kanter, Senior Director of Product at Zillow, has watched her team's roles become more pixelated as the tectonic plates beneath the product landscape keep shifting. She explains why the need for product sense has become more acute when everyone can do a bit of everything. And why approaching this moment with curiosity, agency, and humility might be the smartest move of all.The new reality of product teamsJulia's perspective comes from leading AI and experience teams at Zillow, where she's witnessed firsthand how rapidly evolving tools are reshaping what it means to build products. The traditional boundaries between roles are blurring in ways that require teams to develop new patterns of collaboration."I think across tech it's clear that our roles are becoming more pixelated," Julia explains. "An engineer can be product minded or spin up their own spec, and a designer can code. That is great, but it does require practice in how to do that day to day and redefining your way of working with your partners."When everyone can prototype, what happens?The democratization of building tools has created unprecedented opportunities for rapid experimentation. Julia describes building a prototype at 40,000 feet during a flight, responding to feedback she'd received from real estate agents earlier that day. This kind of immediate iteration would have been impossible just a few years ago.But this accessibility comes with a caveat. While anyone can create a demo or proof of concept, getting something to production quality remains a significant challenge. The gap between "it works in the demo" and "it works reliably for thousands of users" is where product sense becomes crucial.The 3 work postures that still matter* Asking good questions - Good judgment starts with good questions! Stay curious.* Exercising judgment - When you can spin up a deep research report in a matter of minutes, discernment becomes imperative. What can be trusted? What should you use? What should you ignore entirely?* Taking agency - The tools are there, but they require someone willing to dive in without waiting for permission. High agency product people are experimenting, learning, and iterating faster than they ever have.2026 predictionsJulia predicts 2025 will be "the year of messy AI tech" where everyone is piloting and experimenting, with 2026 being when things start falling into place. This mirrors the pattern we saw with multimodal AI exploration in 2023 and broader implementation in 2024.For product teams, this means the current period is about building muscle memory around new tools and workflows rather than expecting immediate perfection.This is the worst that AI tools will ever be!TLDR; Having product sense is the differentiatorWhen everyone has access to powerful building tools, the ability to know what to build becomes the key differentiator. Product sense - that combination of customer empathy, business understanding, and strategic thinking - becomes more acute when the barriers to creating are lower.The message is clear! Embrace the fluidity, be ready to develop new collaborative processes, and remember that all the tools in the world can't replace good judgment about what customers actually want.People of Product is brought to you by Crema - a design & technology consultancy This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.peopleofproduct.us