What to Say When Loved Ones Leave the Church | An Interview with Jeff Strong and Joseph Grenny

Zion Lab: https://app.leadingsaints.org/ Leading Saints Live | March Recap + The Future of Leading Saints Kurt Francom shares highlights from the past month in Zion Lab — Leading Saints’ growing online community app — and digs into the biggest topic on everyone’s mind: the upcoming changes to the Sunday meeting schedule taking effect September 6. In this episode: What is Zion Lab and why Kurt thinks it’s the future of Leading Saints The AI Clerk feature and how it helps church leaders find answers fast Reactions and discussion around the new split Sunday meeting schedule Kurt’s Elders Quorum small-group format and why it works so well for the shorter class time A bishop’s “Bishop’s Youth Discussion” model that’s transforming youth engagement How to become a Zion Builder (and how to get a sponsored membership if cost is a barrier) Links & Resources: 📱 Download the Leading Saints app: Search “Leading Saints” in the Apple App Store or Google Play 💬 Join Zion Lab and become a Zion Builder at leadingsaints.org 📩 DM Kurt directly inside Zion Lab Leading Saints Live streams every first Friday of the month.

Jeff Strong worked nearly 30 years in the consumer products industry as a senior executive at Procter & Gamble and global president and chief customer officer at Johnson & Johnson. He then taught in the Marriott School of Business at Brigham Young University and worked as an advisor to the Church before serving as a mission leader in the Arkansas Bentonville Mission. Jeff has since spent several years doing research on why people are leaving the Church. While not a professional researcher, his career involved a large amount of research and the research he shares in this podcast was done with the help of some of the top Latter-day Saint researchers in the world. Today, Jeff lives in Midway, Utah, and stays busy with a little lavender farm, some business consulting, and enjoying family. Joseph Grenny is a lifelong student of social science whose writings are references in major universities around the world. He is a New York Times bestselling author of eight books, including leadership, influence and communication classics Crucial Conversations, Influencer, Crucial Accountability, and Change Anything. His books are available in over 30 languages and have sold over six million copies. Joseph is a co-founder and current board chair of Unitus Labs, an international nonprofit that has helped over 15 million of the world’s poorest to move toward self reliance. In 2015 he and his colleagues started The Other Side Academy, a 2.5-year school for those with long histories of crime, addiction and homelessness. The Other Side Academy is free, requiring only a desire to change for admission. In April 2021, Joseph and the leaders of The Other Side Academy announced their intention to build The Other Side Village, a 400-home community for those who are chronically homeless based on principles of self-reliance and peer accountability. Joseph is married to the former Celia Marie Waldron. They have six children and eight grandchildren and live in Salt Lake City. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community The Data Behind Church Culture | An Interview with Jeff Strong Joining Moroni’s War on Addiction | An Interview with Joseph Grenny Creating Change | Interview with Joseph Grenny Messy Conversations: When Loved Ones Leave the Faith, by Joseph Grenny Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Social science expert Joseph Grenny and researcher Jeff Strong discuss the high-stakes nature of “faith transitions” within the Church . The conversation centers on how leaders and family members can navigate these emotionally charged discussions to preserve and strengthen relationships. 00:04:45 – The Importance of High-Stakes Conversations 00:06:17 – The Challenge of Faith Transitions 00:08:31 – The Need for Open Dialogue 00:09:50 – The Emotional Weight of Conversations 00:11:13 – The Impact of Poor Responses 00:12:21 – Preparing for Difficult Conversations 00:13:35 – Research Insights on Conversations 00:15:48 – Identifying Positive Deviants 00:16:29 – Learning from Successful Conversations 00:18:06 – The Role of Fear in Conversations 00:20:06 – Talking Under the Influence of Stress 00:22:40 – The Importance of Taking a Breather 00:25:23 – Three Key Steps for Effective Conversations 00:27:00 – Feeling Your Feelings 00:29:40 – Fixing Your Story 00:31:40 – Finding Your Motive 00:33:13 – The Transformative Power of Relationships 00:35:11 – Embracing the Messiness of Life 00:38:11 – The Role of God in Our Growth 00:40:45 – The Journey of Self-Discovery Key Insights The “Devoutness Paradox”: Research involving 15,000 participants found that the more devout a person is, the less likely a conversation about faith transition is to go well. If the recipient is a church leader, the odds of a negative outcome are 4.5 times higher than average. High Intensity of Need: Approximately 83% of individuals going through a faith transition reach out to others, typically contacting four to five people, indicating a deep desire for connection and resolution during the process. The Trap of “Problem-Solving”: Many leaders and parents react out of fear and an immediate impulse to “fix” the individual or bring them back to the church. This motive often leads to the other person feeling judged, berated, or suspected. The “Positive Deviant” Model: Some leaders and family members manage to maintain their own religious commitment while creating a safe, robust space for dialogue. These “positive deviants” prioritize the relationship over immediate theological conformity. Long-Lasting Consequences: The first few seconds of a conversation are pivotal; words spoken in moments of shock or vulnerability can endure for years and dictate the future trajectory of the relationship. Leadership Applications Shifting Motives: Leaders must move from a mindset of “correcting” to one of “listening and processing”. Recognizing that fear often drives the impulse to solve a problem can help leaders stay present and supportive rather than confrontational. Validating the Struggle: Leaders should normalize the reality that faith transitions are common and often a healthy part of a person’s individual journey . By acknowledging the difficulty without judgment, they empower the individual to feel heard rather than controlled. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Tucker Boyle has spent over 25 years teaching Seminary and Institute for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where he has worked closely with youth and young adults to help them deepen their relationship with Jesus Christ and navigate real-life challenges with faith and awareness. He has served as a Young Single Adult bishop and in other leadership callings, giving him a front-line perspective on the complexities individuals face in their spiritual journeys. Tucker is the founder of Harmony Road Retreats, a nonprofit organization that creates compassionate, supportive spaces for individuals wanting to find inner harmony while experiencing shifts in their faith. Through retreats, teaching, and his podcast Call to Harmony, he helps people develop practical tools for navigating spiritual dissonance, regulating the nervous system, and cultivating a more grounded, personal connection with God. He lives in Spanish Fork, Utah, with his wife Katie and their five children. Links https://www.harmonyroadretreats.com/ What I Learned About Leadership When My 2nd Counselor Left the Church ChurchofJesusChrist.org Topics and Questions Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Tucker talks about navigating faith crises and transitions. The discussion explores the intellectual and physiological aspects of questioning faith, moving beyond “black and white” thinking to find spiritual peace through connection and the heart. 00:02:21 – Tucker’s Faith Crisis Journey 00:03:24 – Understanding Faith Crisis Beyond Doubt 00:04:05 – Importance of Community in Faith Transitions 00:04:32 – Tucker’s Experience in Teaching 00:05:43 – Observations on Youth and Young Adults 00:06:31 – Trusting the Goodness of the Younger Generation 00:07:11 – Defining Faith Crisis and Faith Journey 00:08:28 – Tucker’s Personal Faith Crisis Experience 00:09:01 – The Impact of Seeking Other Perspectives 00:10:37 – The Challenge of Balancing Beliefs 00:11:54 – The Role of the Dissertation Chair 00:12:38 – Navigating Fear and Doubt in Research 00:14:03 – The Dissolution of Testimony Pillars 00:15:17 – The Moment of Psychological Free Fall 00:16:21 – The Question of Wasting Time in Faith 00:17:03 – The Complexity of Belief and Doubt 00:18:03 – The Nature of Testimony Pillars 00:19:21 – The Challenge of Seeing Humanity in Divinity 00:20:58 – The Shift from Certainty to Complexity 00:22:46 – The Experience of Testimony in Church 00:23:40 – The Impact of Testimony on Personal Faith 00:24:53 – The Role of Nervous System in Faith Experiences 00:26:54 – The Importance of Self-Regulation 00:28:24 – The Journey of Healing and Understanding 00:30:31 – The Non-Linear Nature of Faith Journeys 00:31:13 – The Moment of Clarity and Love 00:33:08 – The Temporary Nature of Spiritual Experiences 00:34:24 – The Shift Back to Struggle 00:36:08 – Understanding the Faith Crisis Experience 00:37:41 – The Journey Towards Harmony 00:39:44 – The Role of Heart vs. Mind in Faith 00:41:06 – The Transformation Through Faith Crisis 00:43:22 – Embracing Complexity in Belief 00:45:01 – Gratitude for the Faith Crisis Experience 00:45:34 – Moving Forward with New Perspectives Key Insights The Nature of Faith Crisis: A faith crisis is often experienced as a physical response in the nervous system, where the world feels like it is falling apart, rather than just an intellectual disagreement. The Trap of Certainty: Boyle describes his own journey from a “black and white” mindset of having every answer to encountering complexity that dissolved his traditional “pillars” of testimony. Leading with the Heart: While the mind seeks to label, divide, and categorize, the heart can hold nuance, questions, and imperfections in church history or leadership that the analytical mind cannot. Spiritual Regulation: Finding peace often requires “stepping back” from a stressed mind through practices like meditation, allowing for an openness to God even when specific questions remain unanswered. Trusting in God’s Reach: A central theme is the belief that individuals cannot “get out of God’s reach,” and that His love is not dependent on common organizational membership. Leadership Applications Creating Safe Spaces: Leaders can support those in transition by listening without an agenda to “fix” or judge them, ensuring the individual feels safe and “not othered” within the community. Managing Parental and Leader Panic: Tucker advises leaders to trust in the “deep goodness” of the youth and recognize that God’s plan is large enough to encompass their questions and journeys. Focusing on Connection Over Advice: Instead of providing a “five-point plan” or intellectual rebuttals, leaders should focus on maintaining a loving relationship, mirroring the “eternal bond” offered by God and Christ. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

A best-selling author and internationally sought-after speaker and consultant, Michael Timms teaches practical leadership strategies that drive high-performance. He earned an M.B.A. from Utah State University, and was a consultant with Deloitte and an HR leader in the construction and manufacturing industries, prior to forming his own consultancy. Michael is the author of How Leaders Can Inspire Accountability and Succession Planning That Works. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community How Leaders Can Inspire Accountability: Three Habits That Make or Break Leaders and Elevate Organizational Performance How to Claim Your Leadership Power | Michael Timms MichaelTimms.com Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Michael talks about the principles of accountability within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The discussion focuses on how leaders can foster a culture of ownership and high performance among volunteers without relying on the traditional levers of corporate consequences. 00:01:46 – The Challenge of Motivation and Accountability 00:02:18 – Introduction of Michael Timms and His Expertise 00:02:53 – Michael Timms’ Background and Approach to Accountability 00:03:59 – Accountability in a Faith Context 00:04:32 – Defining Accountability 00:06:18 – Understanding Results in a Church Context 00:09:23 – Starting Points for Accountability in Organizations 00:11:06 – The Role of Leaders in Accountability 00:12:20 – Key Behaviors for Modeling Accountability 00:14:21 – Setting Expectations in Leadership 00:16:43 – Importance of Feedback and Communication 00:20:03 – Clarifying Purpose and Results 00:21:36 – Establishing Expectations for Team Dynamics 00:24:24 – Addressing Accountability Breakdowns 00:26:45 – Three Habits of Personal Accountability 00:29:02 – Motivating People in a Volunteer Organization 00:30:26 – The Power of Positive Feedback 00:32:12 – Giving Ownership to Team Members 00:34:12 – Scenarios for Accountability in Activities 00:39:17 – Handling Blame in Accountability Conversations 00:41:39 – Avoiding Micromanagement in Leadership Key Insights Redefining Accountability: Timms defines accountability as taking ownership of results and focusing on the actions necessary to achieve the right outcomes, rather than using it as a euphemism for blame or punishment. The Power of Modeling: Accountability begins with the leader; if those in positions of authority do not own their mistakes or seek feedback, others in the organization are unlikely to do so. Defining Results: In a faith context, “results” should be defined broadly—such as bringing people closer to Christ—and then distilled into specific goals, such as building testimonies or improving how members feel about their Sunday experience. Setting Clear Expectations: High-performing teams agree on general guidelines for how they will work together—such as preferred communication methods and response times—before diving into the work. Three Habits of Personal Accountability: Michael highlights three essential behaviors for leaders: avoiding blame, “looking in the mirror” to see how they contributed to a problem, and “engineering the solution” by fixing broken systems or processes. Motivation Through Ownership: Motivating volunteers is best achieved by giving them a say in outcomes, providing frequent positive feedback to trigger a sense of progress, and granting them true decision-making power within councils. Leadership Applications Requesting Feedback: Leaders can improve performance by sincerely asking those they lead for feedback on how to make it easier for them to achieve their goals. Systemic Problem Solving: When a task is not completed, Michael suggests leaders should ask “where did the process break down?” rather than “who dropped the ball?” to reduce defensiveness and improve future results. Standardizing Procedures: Implementing standard operating procedures for recurring events—such as meeting agendas or baptismal services—helps ensure consistency and reduces the mental load on volunteers. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Steve Webber served a mission for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the Spain Barcelona Mission and later graduated from Brigham Young University with a degree in Business Management. Professionally, he owns and manages an advertising agency. Steve has served in various leadership capacities, including bishop, high counselor, Young Men president, elders quorum president, and high priest group leader. These experiences, along with his time as a home minister, have given him a unique perspective on how valiant ministering can bless the flock of the Good Shepherd. He currently hosts the Home Ministering Podcast on YouTube. Steve lives in Cedar Hills, Utah, with his wife, Jana. They are the parents of five children and five grandchildren. Links HomeMinistering.com Home Ministering: The Process of Perfecting the Saints Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Steve discusses the evolution of ministering within the Church, emphasizing the shift from home teaching to a more holistic approach to ministering. He shares insights from his book and offers practical advice for leaders to enhance their ministering efforts. 00:03:22 – Background on Steve’s Book 00:04:04 – The Shift from Home Teaching to Ministering 00:05:13 – Early Experiences as a Bishop 00:06:43 – The Importance of Personal Connection 00:08:28 – The Role of Personalization in Ministering 00:09:06 – The Need for Flexibility in Ministering 00:10:00 – Addressing Safety Concerns in Ministering 00:10:31 – The Evolution of Ministering Terminology 00:12:01 – The Church’s Long-Term Vision for Ministering 00:14:25 – The Impact of Ministering on Church Attendance 00:15:40 – The Power of Asking the Right Questions 00:18:43 – Encouraging Open Communication in Ministering 00:20:37 – Serving Like Jesus 00:22:47 – Developing Christlike Attributes through Ministering 00:25:54 – The Importance of Prayer in Ministering 00:28:20 – The Role of Ministering in Building Community 00:30:40 – The Need for Humility in Receiving Help 00:32:54 – The Importance of Ministering Relationships 00:35:02 – Historical Context of Ministering Changes 00:37:21 – The Higher Law of Ministering 00:39:40 – The Role of Family Support in Ministering 00:41:06 – Building Authentic Relationships in Ministering Key Insights Ministering as a Higher Law: The transition from home teaching to ministering represents a return to the original purpose of caring for one another, focusing on service rather than just teaching lessons. Personal Connection: Effective ministering involves building genuine relationships, where ministering brothers and sisters are seen as trusted friends who can provide support and encouragement. The Power of Prayer: Asking families what they need prayer for can open doors for deeper connections and help ministering brothers and sisters understand how to serve effectively. Flexibility in Approach: There is no one-size-fits-all method for ministering; leaders should encourage creativity and adaptability based on the unique needs of families. Importance of Presence: Simply showing up and expressing love can have a profound impact, even if there are no specific tasks to perform. This presence fosters trust and openness. Leadership Applications Encourage Open Communication: Leaders can promote a culture where members feel comfortable sharing their needs, making it easier for ministering brothers and sisters to provide support. Focus on Relationships: Leaders should emphasize the importance of building relationships over merely fulfilling assignments, encouraging members to engage with those they serve on a personal level. Model Humility and Service: By demonstrating a willingness to receive help and support, leaders can set an example for their congregations, showing that vulnerability and openness are strengths in the ministering process. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Brandon Bennett currently serves as a Professor of Religious Education at Brigham Young University–Idaho. He previously worked for more than a decade in Seminaries and Institutes of Religion in Utah and Texas, where he was blessed to teach the restored gospel to many remarkable youth and young adults. Throughout much of his adult life, he has held callings working with the rising generation, focusing on strengthening their faith in Jesus Christ and helping them build a firm spiritual foundation. His experiences as a religious educator and youth leader have reinforced the importance of teaching truth “in plainness” (2 Nephi 31:3). Teaching doctrine with clarity and simplicity has, therefore, become one of his great priorities and convictions. He believes that as we seek to clearly understand and faithfully apply the principles taught in the scriptures and the words of the prophets—free from false assumptions—we place ourselves in a position to more fully receive the Savior’s power, peace, and direction in our lives. Brandon shares faith-filled thoughts on finding purpose in pain through Jesus Christ. This livestream explores why trials come—from our own choices, mortality, others’ actions, or divine tutoring—and how the Savior’s touch can give any experience meaning. Rather than saying “everything happens for a reason,” Brandon reframes the idea: through Jesus Christ, everything can have a reason and purpose. Drawing on scripture, doctrine, and the story of the man born blind, this discussion offers hope, perspective, and practical faith for anyone navigating hardship—and for leaders counseling others through it. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights 00:02:31 – The Challenge of Offering Comfort in Trials 00:03:29 – Introduction of Brandon Bennett 00:04:04 – Background on Brandon’s Presentation 00:05:57 – The Complexity of Trials and Comforting Statements 00:07:35 – The Impact of “Everything Happens for a Reason” 00:09:20 – Understanding Trials Through Personal Experience 00:10:07 – The Nature of Adversity 00:11:21 – Orson F. Whitney’s Quote on Pain and Growth 00:12:54 – The Role of the Savior in Our Trials 00:14:27 – The Importance of Perspective in Trials 00:15:58 – The Role of Empathy in Leadership 00:20:51 – The Danger of Speculative Doctrines 00:23:12 – The Power of Empathy in Healing 00:25:04 – The Role of the Savior in Our Trials 00:26:33 – How to Involve Jesus Christ in Our Lives 00:30:25 – The Doctrine of Christ and Accessing His Power 00:34:25 – The Paradox of Grace 00:40:05 – The Nature of the Savior’s Love and Acceptance 00:42:12 – Conclusion and Final Thoughts on Trials and Healing The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Ganel-Lyn Condie is a popular speaker, author, and mental health advocate. With insight shaped by faith, lived experience, and cultural awareness, she brings both compassion and clarity to the question many leaders and members are asking: How do we help people feel seen, known, and loved—especially those on the margins? In this episode, Ganel-Lyn discusses her new book, Sourdough and the Savior, which explores the parallels between the process of making sourdough bread and the teachings of Jesus Christ. The conversation emphasizes the importance of ministering, community building, and personal growth through shared experiences. Links Sourdough and the Savior Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Key Insights Sourdough as a Metaphor: Ganel-Lyn uses sourdough baking as a metaphor for understanding the characteristics of the Savior, illustrating how personal struggles can lead to spiritual growth. Ministering through Connection: The act of sharing sourdough has become a means of ministering to others, fostering connections, and creating opportunities for healing and conversation. Building Community: Ganel-Lyn emphasizes the need for community in the church, particularly for those who may feel isolated. She shares her experience of hosting informal gatherings to create a space for connection without the pressure of formal church events. Vulnerability in Leadership: By sharing her own feelings of loneliness and identity struggles, Ganel-Lyn encourages leaders to be open and vulnerable, which can help others feel seen and understood. Diversity in Gifts: The discussion highlights that everyone has unique gifts to share, and these contributions, no matter how small, can significantly impact the community and help build Zion. Leadership Applications Encouraging Informal Gatherings: Leaders can create opportunities for members to connect outside of formal church settings, fostering a sense of belonging and community. Modeling Vulnerability: By being open about their own challenges, leaders can create an environment where others feel safe to share their struggles, leading to deeper connections and support. Recognizing Individual Contributions: Leaders should encourage members to share their unique talents and experiences, reinforcing the idea that every contribution is valuable in building a strong, diverse community. Highlights 00:03:02 – Ganel-Lyn’s Journey to Writing 00:06:29 – The Struggles of Sourdough 00:10:18 – The Role of Ministering 00:11:03 – Building Zion Through Community 00:13:04 – Sharing Talents and Gifts 00:15:08 – The Impact of Sourdough 00:16:49 – The Importance of Connection 00:20:50 – Navigating Loneliness 00:24:01 – Creating Inclusive Gatherings 00:27:21 – The Essence of Community 00:30:20 – The Role of Church Leaders 00:34:25 – The Importance of Vulnerability The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Frank Schwartz is a husband—for nearly 25 years—and a father of three girls. He has served in several bishoprics, elders quorum presidencies, high councils, high priest group leaderships and Young Men presidencies (back when those were a thing), and a variety of other callings over the years. Frank did undergraduate and graduate work in Psychology and worked in television before starting a small, boutique, corporate communications firm. Most recently he has worked for a client in the healthcare payments space. Frank joined F3 in 2014 and has served in the national leadership in different capacities prior to taking over as Nant’an/CEO in 2024. Links Fellowshipping Men in Elders Quorum | An Interview with Frank Schwartz Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights 00:02:40 – Discussion on Elders Quorum Engagement 00:03:01 – Personal Experience with F3 and Transformation 00:05:11 – The Importance of Community for Men 00:09:18 – The Need for Transformational Experiences 00:10:08 – Finding Truth and Community 00:12:13 – The Simplicity of Gathering Men 00:14:02 – The Role of Food in Building Brotherhood 00:15:32 – The Power of Gathering in Elders Quorum 00:18:00 – Authenticity in Church Leadership 00:20:56 – Creating Comfortable Spaces for Discussion 00:22:04 – Personal Transformation After Warrior Heart Bootcamp 00:23:24 – The Quest for Personal Purpose 00:25:05 – Shifting Perspectives on Relationships 00:30:00 – The Broader Plan and God’s Purpose 00:33:55 – Limiting Perspectives and Personal Growth 00:37:40 – The Journey of Self-Discovery and Adventure Frank and Kurt discuss approaches to engaging men in elders quorum and fostering brotherhood within the Latter-day Saint community. They explore the importance of transformational experiences and how simple gatherings can lead to deeper connections among men. Key Insights Transformational Experiences: Men often seek meaningful experiences that can lead to personal growth and connection. Frank shares how participating in F3 and Warrior Heart boot camps has profoundly changed his perspective on leadership and relationships. Gathering for Brotherhood: The act of gathering, whether for workouts or casual meet-ups, is crucial for building community. Frank emphasizes that men need spaces where they can connect and share their experiences authentically. Authenticity in Leadership: Leaders should prioritize creating environments where vulnerability is encouraged. This can be achieved by moving away from rigid lesson structures and focusing on genuine interactions. Shifting Perspectives: Frank discusses the importance of recognizing limiting beliefs and perspectives that can hinder personal growth. Leaders should help others see beyond their current views to embrace a broader understanding of their purpose. Simplicity in Engagement: Simple gatherings, such as meeting for hot dogs or casual discussions, can effectively draw men together and foster meaningful conversations, making it easier for them to engage with one another. Leadership Applications Focus on Gathering: Latter-day Saint leaders can prioritize creating informal gatherings that encourage connection among men, such as breakfast meetings or service projects, rather than strictly adhering to lesson plans. Encourage Vulnerability: Leaders should model vulnerability and openness in their interactions, creating a safe space for others to share their thoughts and feelings, which can lead to stronger bonds within the group. Challenge Limiting Beliefs: Leaders can facilitate discussions that help members identify and overcome limiting beliefs, encouraging them to explore their divine potential and purpose within the community. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Brother Eric Richards teaches Institute and Seminary in the Utah North Area, is a member of the Veritas society, a contributing author for the Patheos project, and a member of the International Writers and Editors Association. He has served in several Bishoprics, twice on High Councils, in the Stake Presidency, and now serves as a Bishop. For five years, Brother Richards and his team wrote the Online Seminary Curriculum. He presents at BYU and BYU-Idaho Education Week and is the author of Preparing for the Second Coming, Come Follow Me: Words of the Week, and was a contributing author for Deseret Book’s “Hear Him” project. He’s a certified Neuroscience Coach, and a great pickleball player in his free time. Brother Richards grew up attending the Mountain View Baptist Church in San Diego before missionaries baptized him and his mom. He served a mission in Honduras, and his son later served in the same mission. He first moved to Utah after meeting his future wife at EFY, and taught Seminary and played water polo and volleyball for Utah State University. They have been married for 27 years. Most of all, he loves teaching and being with valiant Christians around the world. Links Preparing for the Second Coming Come Follow Me: Words of the Week Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights How can we lead in a way that connects members deeply to Jesus Christ? This conversation moves beyond administrative duties to explore practical frameworks for empowering members, delivering difficult counsel, and fostering a revelation-driven ward culture. 00:02:37 – Eric Richards’s Background and Experience 00:06:05 – Core Messages and Focus on Jesus Christ 00:07:42 – Approaching Leadership and Interviews 00:12:21 – The Importance of the Bishop’s Helpline 00:13:05 – Interview Techniques for Revelation 00:20:03 – The Role of Hope in Leadership 00:24:11 – Addressing Pornography in Ministering Interviews 00:30:51 – Supporting Speakers and Teachers in Sacrament Meetings 00:35:07 – Encouraging Discussion in Sunday School 00:39:26 – Inspired Counsel on Callings 00:45:12 – The Bishop’s Prayer List and Personal Ministry 00:46:33 – Ministering Interviews and Strengthening Faith Key Insights Connecting to Christ: All leadership efforts should ultimately prioritize helping individuals develop a personal relationship with the Savior rather than simply maintaining organizational functions. Four Levels of Problem Solving: Leaders can empower members by identifying their current “level” of problem-solving: Level 1 (bringing a completed solution), Level 2 (proposing options), Level 3 (sharing findings/research), or Level 4 (simply asking for the answer). The “Hot Sauce” Technique: Delivering difficult correction is most effective when used as a “compliment sandwich,” where hard truths are encased in genuine love to ensure the counsel is “metabolized” rather than rejected. Facilitating Personal Revelation: Leaders should serve as a “Sherpa” or “guide on the side,” asking questions that invite the member to receive their own answers from the Spirit rather than providing them directly. Wellness Baselines: Richards emphasizes checking a member’s physical (sleep, diet, exercise) and spiritual (prayer, scripture, temple) “baselines” to address holistic needs before tackling complex emotional or behavioral issues. Heart-Led Vulnerability: To create safety, leaders should model vulnerability in sacrament meetings and classes, prioritizing personal, “heart-led” experiences over purely informational “head-led” teaching. Leadership Applications Member Empowerment: Instead of solving every problem, a leader can ask a member where they are on the 1–4 problem-solving scale, encouraging them to find and present their own solutions for the leader’s approval. Ward Council Dynamics: Councils are most effective when members “check their ego” and evaluate every proposal through “three hats”: their perspective as an individual, as a friend/neighbor, and through their specific stewardship. Joyful Ward Culture: Leaders can foster a “Church of Joy” by normalizing post-meeting interactions and using specific roles, such as “stenographers” to document the ward’s spiritual history and community connections. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Stephan Taeger is an assistant professor in Ancient Scripture at Brigham Young University. He received a PhD from BYU in Instructional Design and Technology. Stephan’s research focuses on Homiletics (the study of preaching), narrative instruction, and ancient scripture. He is also an author and co-host of the RVVL podcast with David Butler. Links Y Religion: Justification by Faith The Science of Speaking in Sacrament Meeting &#124; An Interview with Stephan Taeger President Spencer W. Kimball: &#8220;Jesus the Perfect Leader&#8221; Sermons and talks by Timothy Keller on YouTube Stephan Taeger: &#8220;Declared Guiltless: Justification by Faith in the Latter-day Saint Classroom&#8221; Toxic Perfectionism at Church &#124; An Interview with Justin Dyer Justification: God&#8217;s Plan, Paul&#8217;s Vision N.T. Wright on YouTube Weakness Is Not Sin: The Liberating Distinction That Awakens Our Strengths RVVL Podcast StephanTaeger.com Tim Keller: Sin as Self-Deceit Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights 00:04:00 &#8211; Stephan Taeger&#8217;s Background and Teaching Focus 00:05:00 &#8211; Influence of Tim Keller on Understanding Justification 00:06:00 &#8211; Justification Explained 00:09:00 &#8211; The Relationship Between Justification and Works 00:10:30 &#8211; Understanding the Role of Covenants 00:11:30 &#8211; The Importance of Faithfulness 00:12:30 &#8211; The Marriage Analogy for Justification 00:13:30 &#8211; The Role of the Sacrament in Justification 00:14:30 &#8211; Defining Sanctification 00:15:30 &#8211; The Process of Becoming More Like God 00:17:00 &#8211; The Role of Obedience in Response to Grace 00:18:00 &#8211; Addressing Perfectionism in Leadership 00:19:00 &#8211; The Impact of Sin on Community 00:20:00 &#8211; The Role of Bishops in Restricting Ordinances 00:22:00 &#8211; Understanding Restrictions as Support 00:23:00 &#8211; The Nature of Punishment vs. Guidance 00:24:00 &#8211; Mental Health and Perfectionism 00:25:00 &#8211; Addressing Sexual Development and Sin 00:26:00 &#8211; The Importance of Striving for Sanctification 00:27:00 &#8211; The Role of the Bishop in Mental Health 00:28:00 &#8211; The Challenge of Perfectionism 00:29:00 &#8211; The Concept of Forgiveness 00:30:00 &#8211; The Nature of Grace in the Gospel Key Insights Justification Defined: Justification is described as being pardoned from sin and declared guiltless, occurring when individuals enter a covenant relationship with God through faith, repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost. Sanctification Explained: Sanctification is the ongoing process of becoming more like God, involving a change in one’s nature, thoughts, and desires over time, as individuals strive to live in accordance with their covenants. The Role of Grace: Grace is central to understanding both justification and sanctification. It emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, not solely based on individual works, and that individuals can have confidence in their justified state. Addressing Perfectionism: Many Latter-day Saints struggle with perfectionism, often feeling unworthy despite understanding the doctrine. The conversation highlights the importance of recognizing one&#8217;s worth as inherent and not solely based on actions. Mental Health Considerations: The discussion touches on the intersection of mental health and religious beliefs, particularly regarding OCD and scrupulosity, emphasizing the need for compassion and understanding in addressing these issues. Leadership Applications Fostering a Culture of Grace: Leaders can create an environment where members feel secure in their justified state, encouraging them to engage in the gospel without the burden of shame or guilt. Understanding Individual Needs: By recognizing that unmet needs may drive certain behaviors, leaders can approach members with empathy, focusing on support rather than judgment. Promoting Continuous Growth: Leaders should emphasize the importance of striving for sanctification, framing commandments and ordinances as opportunities for growth rather than as mere obligations, thus inspiring members to engage more fully in their spiritual journeys. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints&#8217; mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.</p