Rounding Up Season 11 - Ep159: Michael Liebreich & Bryony Worthington

Episode Notes How can we build a more united climate movement? What should be the role of geoengineering? And how can indigenous voices be brought into the climate conversation?Bryony puts these questions to model, actor, director, ambassador and businesswoman, Lily Cole. Lily's career began at age 14 when she was recruited as a model, pitching her into the high-octane world of fashion. She remains a self-confessed geek, however, and completed her studies including a degree from Cambridge University. In 2016, she started researching a book ‘Who Cares Wins,’ which was published in 2020. In both the book and the podcast that followed, she gives a platform to a wide range of people, always seeking to see both sides of the many debates, and also to inspire optimism thanks to the wide range of solutions that are out there, be they technologically driven, or founded on ancient traditions and wisdoms.Please like, subscribe and leave a review. Follow us on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook or Instagram, and sign up for the Cleaning Up newsletter at cleaninguppod.substack.com.  Links and more:Lily’s website and companyWho Cares Wins: Lily’s book and podcastThe Righteous Mind by Jonathan HaidtThe Dawn of Everything by David Graeber and David WengrowSky Diamond — Carbon capture diamondsBryony’s recommended documentary on diamonds

Welcome to Season 12 of Cleaning Up! If you want a sense of the trajectory of climate action, you have to understand China, and you have to understand finance. There is no one better to share insights on both than Dr Ma Jun, Founder and President of the Institute of Finance and Sustainability in Beijing.Between 2014 and 2020, Dr Ma served as Chief Economist and then Member of the Monetary Policy Committee of the People’s Bank of China. Over the subsequent years, Dr Ma played a key role in the development of sustainable finance in China and around the world. He led the drafting of China’s green finance and green bond guidelines; he led work on green finance at the G20; he pushed for the greening of China’s Belt and Road initiative; he set up initiatives with the global accounting and standards bodies; and he helped enlist the world’s major financial centres in the drive to green the capital markets. Dr Ma is a towering figure in the area of green finance in China and in the world, and provides an invaluable perspective on one of the most significant players in the clean energy transition.Please like, subscribe and leave a review. Follow us on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook or Instagram, and sign up for the Cleaning Up newsletter at https://cleaninguppod.substack.com.  Links and related episodes:Dr Ma’s 2017 book, “The Economics of Air Pollution in China: Achieving Better and Cleaner Growth” https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7312/ma--17494Dr Ma and Simon Zadek: Decarbonizing the Belt and Road https://www.climateworks.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/BRI_Exec_Summary_v10-screen_pages_lo-1.pdfEpisodes 14 with Jonathan Maxwell – Cheaper, Cleaner, More Reliable  https://www.cleaningup.live/episode-14-jonathan-maxwell/Episodes 113 with Jonathan Maxwell — Checkpoint 2023: Energy Efficiency Investment https://www.cleaningup.live/ep113-jonathan-maxwell-checkpoint-2023-energy-efficiency-investment/Episode 153 with Lauri Myllivyrta – Shedding Light on Energy's Dirty Secrets https://www.cleaningup.live/shedding-light-on-energys-dirty-secrets-ep153-lauri-myllyvirta/Episode 84 with Mark Carney - The 130 Trillion-Dollar Man https://www.cleaningup.live/ep84-mark-carney-matching-net-zero-supply-and-demand/Episode 145 with Professor Avinash Persaud – The Bridgetown Initiator  https://www.cleaningup.live/the-bridgetown-initiator-ep145-prof-avinash-persaud/

Bryony and Michael round up the eleventh season of Cleaning Up this week. They explore the themes running through the episodes, from theories of change to innovation, and discuss the things that surprised them, the moments they liked (or didn't) and reasons for optimism for the transition.  Links: Ep149: Material World - Ed Conway: https://www.cleaningup.live/material-world-ep149-ed-conway/ Ep150: Selling Sustainability - Solitaire Townsend: https://www.cleaningup.live/selling-sustainability-ep150-solitaire-townsend/Ep151: Redesigning Mining - Mark Cutifani: https://www.cleaningup.live/redesigning-mining-ep151-mark-cutifani/ Ep152: Can We Have a Habitable Planet? - David Wallace-Wells: https://www.cleaningup.live/can-we-have-an-habitable-planet-ep152-david-wallace-wells/ Ep153: Shedding Light on Energy's Dirty Secrets - Lauri Myllyvirta: https://www.cleaningup.live/shedding-light-on-energys-dirty-secrets-ep153-lauri-myllyvirta/ Ep154: Green Heat (And Cooling) Under Our Feet - Tamsin Lishman: https://www.cleaningup.live/green-heat-and-cooling-under-our-feet-ep154-tamsin-lishman/ Ep155: Extreme Electrochemistry - Prof. Donald Sadoway: https://www.cleaningup.live/extreme-electrochemistry-for-a-sustainable-future-ep155-prof-donald-sadoway/ Ep156: A Magnificent Woman And Her Flying Machines - Bonny Simi: https://www.cleaningup.live/a-magnificent-woman-and-her-flying-machines-ep156-bonny-simi/ A11: The Five Horsemen of the Transition: https://www.cleaningup.live/audioblog-11-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-i-harder-1/ A12: The Five Superheroes of the Transition: https://www.cleaningup.live/audioblog-12-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-ii-easier/Ep157: The Methane Hunters - Sebastien Biraud & Sharon Wilson: https://www.cleaningup.live/the-methane-hunters-ep157-dr-sebastien-biraud-sharon-wilson/Ep 158: Absolutely Electrifying - Saul Griffith: https://www.cleaningup.live/absolutely-electrifying-ep158-saul-griffith/

Michael chats with Saul Griffith, Australian-born engineer, inventor, advisor, author and 2007 MacArthur "Genius". He specialises in clean and renewable energy technologies, and has founded a dozen technology companies across 20 years in Silicon Valley, as well as authoring 3 books, including `Electrify', and `The Big Switch'. He has recently turned his attention from Otherlab, his independent Research and Development lab, to policy work and writing, including founding Rewiring America and Rewiring Australia, non-partisan organisations dedicated to electrification and decarbonisation and the associated policy and regulatory implications of meeting our climate goals. Saul received his Ph.D. at MIT in the junction between materials science and information theory. Prior to MIT, he studied in Sydney, Australia and at UC Berkeley in metallurgical engineering.    Links  Buy Saul's 2022 book Electrify: An Optimist's Playbook for Our Clean Energy Future: https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262545044/electrify/ Buy Saul's The Big Switch: Australia’s Electric Future: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-Switch-Australias-Electric-Future-ebook/dp/B09QFQHF8W Buy Saul's 2023 extended essay: https://www.quarterlyessay.com.au/essay/2023/03/the-wires-that-bind    Related Episodes The Bridgetown Initiator - Ep145: Prof Avinash Persaud: https://www.cleaningup.live/the-bridgetown-initiator-ep145-prof-avinash-persaud/ Audioblog 12: The 5 Superheroes of the Transition: https://www.cleaningup.live/audioblog-12-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-ii-easier/

Bryony speaks to two fascinating guests, both specialising in methane emissions, their causes and impacts: Dr. Sebastien Biraud and Sharon Wilson.Dr. Biraud is a biogeochemist, leading the Climate Sciences Department. Sebastien's work has taken him to the tropical rainforests of the Amazon, the great plains of the United States, and the Arctic tundra. He is currently co-leading/leading projects for the U.S. Department of Energy and the California Energy Commission. These projects involve integrating and applying high-precision greenhouse gas observations to advance research on the atmospheric carbon cycle and to enhance measurement, reporting, and verification of greenhouse gas emissions. Sharon  is a 5th generation Texan who, after 12 years working for the oil and gas industry in Ft. Worth, left and bought 42 acres in Wise County. Unknown to her at the time was that George Mitchell was experimenting in Wise County to figure out how to produce oil and gas from shale. She had a ringside seat at the sneak preview called Fracking Impacts. This experience prompted her to join Earthworks’, working on their Oil & Gas Accountability Project in 2010. In 2014, she became a certified optical gas imaging thermographer and now travels across the U.S. making visible the invisible methane pollution from oil and gas facilities through her non-profit, Oilfield Witness, and giving tours to media, Members of Congress, state lawmakers, regulators, and investment bankers.   Links Explore Sharon's work at Oilfield Witness here: https://oilfieldwitness.orgView Oilfield Witness' award-winning documentary here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMT2ESXlZ14 Read Sebastien's interview about his work for the Berkeley Lab News Centre here: https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2021/11/10/methanes-short-lifespan-presents-golden-opportunity-to-quickly-address-climate-change/ Read about EDF's MethaneSAT, a recently-launched satellite to track global methane emissions: https://www.ft.com/content/d3d8e7fe-4f0f-4eaf-9bc3-ae99b3fa322a Learn more about MethaneSAT here: https://www.methanesat.org   Related Episodes Tackling Super Pollutants - Ep146: Jason Anderson: https://www.cleaningup.live/tackling-super-pollutants-ep146-jason-anderson/

This week, Michael presents the second part of his two-parter for Bloomberg New Energy Finance, exploring the bear and bull cases for the net zero transition. This week is the bull case: the "5 superheroes" of the transition, 5 forces/trends even more powerful than last week's "5 horsemen", which can prevail in the challenge of rapidly decarbonising the global economy. The 5 superheroes are: Exponential Growth, Systems Solutions, Great Power Competition, Disappearing Demand, and the Primary Energy Fallacy. And stay tuned until the end for a 6th "bonus" superhero!This audioblog is based on Michael's Bloomberg New Energy Finance opinion piece of the same title.    LinksRead the original BNEF piece on which this audio blog was based: https://about.bnef.com/blog/liebreich-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-ii-easier/Read the latest IEA Renewables Report 2023: https://www.iea.org/news/massive-expansion-of-renewable-power-opens-door-to-achieving-global-tripling-goal-set-at-cop28Read the 2017 research paper - Limits to Growth in the Renewable Energy Sector: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032119305143Read Michael's 2018 piece for BNEF - Beyond Three Thirds, The Road to Deep Decarbonisation: https://about.bnef.com/blog/liebreich-beyond-three-thirds-road-deep-decarbonization/Read the research review by Hans Eric Melin on the reuse and recycling rates of lithium-ion batteries: https://www.energimyndigheten.se/globalassets/forskning--innovation/overgripande/state-of-the-art-in-reuse-and-recycling-of-lithium-ion-batteries-2019.pdfRead Michael Barnard's analysis of the proportion of global shipping linked to the fossil fuel industry: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelbarnard/2023/12/05/how-will-climate-action-change-the-face-of-global-shipping/?sh=73844bc869d0View the Lawrence Livermore Sankey Diagram showing estimated US energy flows in 2022: https://flowcharts.llnl.govRead the first part of this BNEF piece on the "5 horsemen" of the transition: https://about.bnef.com/blog/liebreich-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-i-harder/    Related EpisodesAudioblog 11: Net Zero Will Be Harder Than You Think - And Easier. Part 1: Harder:  https://www.cleaningup.live/audioblog-11-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-i-harder-1/Audioblog  10: The Next Half-Trillion-Dollar Market – Electrification of Heat: https://www.cleaningup.live/cleaning-up-audioblog-episode-10-the-next-half-trillion-dollar-market-electrification-of-heat/         

Michael is solo this week on Cleaning Up, outlining the "5 horsemen" of the net-zero transition - the five greatest obstacles to the net zero transition. These 5 horsemen are: the economics of energy solutions, the electrical grid, the demand for critical mineral, political and social inertia, predatory delay by the powerful incumbents. This audioblog is based on Michael's Bloomberg New Energy Finance opinion piece of the same title.   LinksRead the original essay here: https://about.bnef.com/blog/liebreich-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-i-harder/Read Michael's 2022 essay, 'The Quest for Resilience – What Could Possibly Go Wrong?' here: https://about.bnef.com/blog/liebreich-the-quest-for-resilience-what-could-possibly-go-wrong/Read Michael's 2023 essay, 'The Next Half-Trillion-Dollar Market – Electrification of Heat': https://about.bnef.com/blog/liebreich-the-next-half-trillion-dollar-market-electrification-of-heat/Read Bloomberg NEF's 2022 New Energy Outlook: https://about.bnef.com/new-energy-outlook/Read the IEA's report on the role of critical minerals in the transition: https://www.iea.org/reports/the-role-of-critical-minerals-in-clean-energy-transitionsRead the IPSOS report study - 'What Worries the World'?: https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2022-06/Global-Summary_What-Worries-the-World.pdfRead Simon Michaux's report on the required quantity of critical minerals for net zero: https://www.gtk.fi/en/current/gtk-research-the-currently-known-global-mineral-reserves-will-not-be-sufficient-to-supply-enough-metals-to-manufacture-the-planned-non-fossil-fuel-industrial-systems/Read Part 2 of this two-parter, on the "5 superheroes" of the transition: https://about.bnef.com/blog/liebreich-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-ii-easier/  Related EpisodesReview Ep141 with Naomi Oreskes - Lifting the Curtain on Climate Change Denial: https://www.cleaningup.live/lifting-the-curtain-on-climate-change-denial-ep-141-prof-naomi-oreskes/

Bryony returns with Bonny Simi, President of Operations at Joby Aviation, where she's working on bringing to market a new civilian electric VTOL (eVTOL) aircraft. Prior to joining the team at Joby, Bonny held several operational and strategic roles at JetBlue Most notably, she founded and led JetBlue Technology Ventures, investing in improving the travel, hospitality, and transportation industries. As a pilot, Bonny has commanded Boeing, Airbus and Embraer aircraft at both United Airlines and JetBlue Airways. She is also an Emmy-nominated sports reporter and a 3-time Olympian in the sport of Luge. She holds a BA in Communications, a MS in Management and a MS in Engineering, all from Stanford University, as well as a MS in Human Resources from Regis University.    Links  Explore Joby's website here: https://www.jobyaviation.com You can watch more footage of Joby's eVTOL aircraft here: https://www.youtube.com/@JobyAviation/featured Read about Joby's partnership with the US DoD here: https://www.jobyaviation.com/news/joby-delivers-first-evtol-edwards/ Hear Bonny talk more about her lessons from competing in luge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj9Ey6fdnT0 Listen to the theme song from Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines (the title inspiration for this episode!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPgS26ZhqZs

Michael returns to talk with legendary educator and inventor, Donald Sadoway, Professor Emeritus of Materials Chemistry at MIT. After earning his PhD in chemical metallurgy in 1977 at the University of Toronto, he joined the faculty at MIT where he spent 44 years. For 16 of those, he taught 3.091 (Introduction to Solid-State Chemistry)—and his animated lectures, peppered with references to music, art, and literature—doubtless contributed to the subject’s popularity. Among the many accolades bestowed on Professor Sadoway in his 44 years as a teacher and researcher at MIT was a compliment by Bill Gates: “best chemistry lessons anywhere. Unbelievable.” In 2012, for the invention of the liquid metal battery, he was named by Time magazine one of the “100 Most Influential People in the World.” He has founded several hard tech startups, including Ambri, Avanti Battery Company, Pure Lithium and Boston Metal.  Links Review Donald's 2012 TED talk, "The Missing Link to Renewable Energy" here: https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy?language=enExplore Avanti Battery Company's tech here: https://avanti.energyExplore Ambri's tech here: https://ambri.comExplore Pure Lithium's tech here: https://www.purelithium.ioExplore Boston Metal's tech here: https://www.bostonmetal.comExplore Sadoway Labs' research here: https://sadowaylabs.orgTake Prof Sadoway's course, 3.091 - Introduction to Solid State Chemistry - here: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/3-091sc-introduction-to-solid-state-chemistry-fall-2010/   Related Episodes Metals Refining - From Mining to Brining - Ep142: Alex Grant: https://www.cleaningup.live/metals-refining-from-mining-to-brining-ep-142-alex-grant/Iron-Air Man - Ep144: Mateo Jaramillo: https://www.cleaningup.live/iron-air-man-ep144-mateo-jaramillo/ 

Tamsin Lishman joins Bryony this week to talk heat pumps. Tamsin is CEO of Kensa Group, a Cornwall-based manufacturer and installer of ground source heat pumps. Kensa is the UK's only manufacturer of ground source heat pumps. Both air source and ground source heat pumps are rapidly growing technologies, and Tamsin believes that Kensa's heat pumps can - and will - be deployed to electrify domestic heating in the UK. On a recent episode of Cleaning Up, Fatih Birol, Executive Director of the IEA, argued that heat pumps are "the closest thing to a silver bullet" we have in the race to net-zero. In over two decades, Kensa has saved over 1 million tonnes of carbon through ground source heat pump installations. The Kensa Group is partly owned by Legal & General Capital, part of Legal & General PLC, and Octopus Energy. Tamsin was appointed CEO of Kensa Group in July 2023. Previously, she had stints at EnergyNest and Centrica. She holds a Master of Engineering from Oxford University.    Links See Kensa's website here: https://www.thekensagroup.com  Read the IEA's report on the future of heat pumps: https://www.iea.org/reports/the-future-of-heat-pumps (For UK viewers) Check out the UK government's tool to see if a heat pump could be suitable for your home: https://www.gov.uk/check-heat-pump Read this Guardian piece on heat pump installations in the UK: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/08/greener-cheaper-much-warmer-heat-pump-owners-laud-their-new-system Read about Kensa's recent fundraise of £70m from Octopus and Legal&General, with the help of EcoPragma Capital, here: https://www.kensaheatpumps.com/news-blog/pump-it-up-octopus-energy-and-legal-general-make-britains-biggest-investment-in-ground-source-heat-pumps/