COP30: Caught Between An Electrostate and A Petrostate | Ep230: Rachel Kyte

This week on Cleaning Up, we welcome back Rachel Kyte, the UK’s Special Representative for Climate Change, for a deep dive into the shifting landscape of global climate diplomacy ahead of COP30 in Belém, Brazil.Rachel brings decades of experience — from leading Sustainable Energy for All under Ban Ki-Moon to senior roles at the World Bank and IFC — to unpack how countries, investors, and institutions are navigating the new era of implementation.Together, Michael and Rachel explore:How the UK is re-engaging globally on climate and energy policy.The evolution of climate finance and why capital still struggles to flow into emerging markets.Which path the world will follow, the US petrostate model, or China’s electrostate model.Why investing in grids, governance, and infrastructure is still missing from the energy transition.What to expect at COP30 — from forest finance to a possible rethink of the annual COP model.And how countries from Africa to Asia are shaping their own pathways to clean growth and energy security.Rachel also reflects on public attitudes, the politicization of climate action, and the need for pragmatic cooperation over rhetoric.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Links and more:Rachel’s first appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/Umq5pICThDMInside the World's Biggest Investor - Ep138: Carine Smith IhenachoThe Planet's Leading Diplomat - Ep70: Ban Ki-moonSustainable Energy for All - Ep16: Dr Kandeh K. Yumkella

Global shipping contributes about 3% of global greenhouse gas emissions, equivalent to the total emissions of Japan or Germany. The sector, including its contribution to climate change, is governed by the International Maritime Organisation or the IMO, which is a UN agency based in London in the United Kingdom.Last week, the International Maritime Organisation gathered to vote on a proposal to reduce emissions from ships that had been agreed to in principle earlier this year. And ahead of the gathering, most people intimately involved in the process thought the proposal would pass. But that wasn’t the case. The US stepped in at the last minute and pressured all those gathered to delay the vote on the proposal for another 12 months.This week on Cleaning Up, host Bryony Worthington sits down with Professor Tristan Smith, a leading expert on shipping decarbonisation from UCL Energy Institute, to unpack the dramatic events at the latest International Maritime Organization meeting — where the United States’ last-minute intervention derailed a landmark vote on cutting emissions from ships.Together, they explore:How global shipping, responsible for around 3% of greenhouse gas emissions, became a critical test case for international climate policyWhy the IMO’s proposed carbon intensity regulation could have marked the beginning of the end for oil and LNG as marine fuelsThe “Tariff diplomacy” and other threats that reshaped global negotiationsWhat this means for COP30 and other multilateral agreements.Bryony and Tristan also dive deep into possible solutions: from e-fuels, ammonia, and battery electrification to nuclear propulsion — weighing what’s practical, what’s political, and what’s merely wishful thinking.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Is Shipping the Easiest "Hard-to-Abate" Sector? - Ep143: Johannah Christensen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umPAonV20cMThe IMO website: https://www.imo.org/Michael’s Substack on the IMO decision: ​​https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/imo-members-choose-between-the-us

This summer, Michael Liebreich wrote two essays under the title of the Pragmatic Climate Reset. The first challenged the idea that the clean energy transition has failed. And the second challenged the clean energy and climate community to a reset, exploring eight areas which he thinks the transition has gone astray.In this special episode, Bryony Worthington sits down with Michael Liebreich, to unpack Part 2 of “The Pragmatic Climate Reset.”Michael lays out a bold vision for cutting through the noise — replacing ideology with realism, and paralysis with progress. From net zero targets and critical minerals to global politics, energy security, and the economics of clean tech, this is a conversation about what it takes to deliver a just and workable climate transition.Bryony asks Michael,Why criticise Greta Thunberg rather than call out anti-climate commentators like Joe Rogan or President Trump?Did he go too easy on the fossil fuel industry?What does he think he got wrong?How has the essay been received, and did he get any good feedback, either positive or negative.Michael puts forward the idea that if the transition is to succeed in the long run and keep the public on board, we must proceed as a tortoise, not a hare, building on the considerable momentum of renewables to phase fossil fuels out of our energy mix while also keeping energy affordable, and everyone’s lights on.Listen now, or watch the full episode on YouTube.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Read Part I here: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-i/Read Part 2, here: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-ii-a-provocation/Watch the first part of the pragmatic climate reset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKGor2\_BzQExplore all of Michael's audioblogs and essays: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLe8ZTD7dMaaAGobfBqd5eRQfeb5l9vPLG

What does it take to rewire a nation’s energy system? Can we make the grid cleaner, smarter, and more resilient — without driving up bills? And how will the explosion of AI data centres reshape the future of electricity demand?This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with John Pettigrew, outgoing CEO of National Grid, for a candid conversation marking the end of his 35-year career. Together they explore the UK’s £60 billion plan to deliver Clean Power by 2030, the race to build transmission for offshore wind, the growing strain from AI-driven electricity demand, and lessons from major outages in Spain and Heathrow.Pettigrew reflects on the evolving “energy trilemma” — balancing decarbonisation, reliability, and affordability — shares reflections from his 35-year career: what’s changed, what went wrong, and what comes next for the grids powering our clean energy future.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:John’s first appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/1HVcJuO9dNIRoger Dennis on Cleaning Up 'The Price of Resilience': https://youtu.be/CELQT31riDENational Grid’s £60 billion plan: https://www.nationalgrid.com/gridforgrowthNational Energy System Operator (NESO): https://www.neso.energy/Final report from what happened to the Heathrow substation: https://www.neso.energy/news/final-report-review-north-hyde-substation-outage

What does it take for India to deliver electricity to hundreds of millions while simultaneously building a fast-growing clean energy system? Can it overcome its fossil dependence to secure its energy futures with renewables? And how will India’s development choices shape the global climate fight in the decades ahead?India, like China, is home to over a billion people, and is highly reliant on imported fossil fuels and domestic coal. But unlike China, it still has a very rural population and has not yet experienced the rapid rise in per capita energy consumption that accompanied China’s recent development boom. The future path India takes to development is therefore of critical importance.In this episode of Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington sits down with Dr. Arunabha Ghosh, founder and CEO of the Council on Energy, Environment and Water, and Special Envoy for COP30. Together they explore India’s “twin transition”, achieving universal energy access while driving a massive expansion of clean power. From the data-driven electrification of 130 million households, to innovations in market design that slashed solar prices, to India’s push for secure, diversified green supply chains, this conversation reveals a rarely told side of India’s energy transition story.Arunabha also shares insights on India’s role in international climate diplomacy, the significance of cooperation with China and Brazil, and the urgent need for hyper-local climate risk assessment to protect communities from extreme weather.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Council on Energy, Environment and Water website: https://www.ceew.in/India hits 50% non-fossil power milestone ahead of 2030 clean energy target: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-hits-50-non-fossil-power-milestone-ahead-2030-clean-energy-target-2025-07-14/How can India make the leap to become a green, clean country? https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/sep/28/huge-energy-challenges-how-can-india-make-leap-green-clean-country 

Why should we care about coral reefs? What happens when they collapse? And is there still hope for their survival?In this episode of Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington sits down with coral reef ecologist Dr. Katharina Fabricius, who has witnessed six mass bleaching events on the Great Barrier Reef over her three decades of research.From the “seven sins of climate change” threatening reefs — heat waves, acidification, storms, nutrient runoff, and more — to the resilience and surprising adaptability of corals, Katharina offers a sobering yet hopeful look at the future of our oceans. Together, they explore the science, politics, and moral responsibility of protecting one of the world’s most critical ecosystems, and why the fate of coral reefs is deeply tied to human survival.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links:Ep180: Dr Helen Czerski on Oceans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fORkPoR48SUThe latest AIMS report on the state of the Great Barrier Reef: https://www.aims.gov.au/monitoring-great-barrier-reef/gbr-condition-summary-2024-25The Seven Sins of Climate Change report 

The election of Donald Trump to a second term as President marked a turning point in the politics of climate action – not just in the US, but around the world.The airwaves are suddenly awash with commentators, claiming that the transition has failed, that it was always a fool’s errand, and that we must resign ourselves to a fossil-based future forever.The narratives of failure all revel in pointing out that we have not seen dramatic cuts in fossil fuel use globally, consistent with keeping the temperature increase to 1.5C, and are not on track to achieve global net zero by 2050.The climate and clean energy community is facing a choice. It can remain reactive, doubling down on old narratives, pressing on with existing policies, preaching to the converted and watching the pace of change slow for the next few years.Or it can undertake what I call a Pragmatic Climate Reset: Wind back historical over-reach, accept harsh realities, address legitimate concerns, refresh its offer and find new ways of communicating with a confused public.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:• Read the full article on BNEF: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-ii-a-provocation/• Watch the first part of the pragmatic climate reset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKGor2_BzQ

Is the future of clean energy and climate solutions brighter than we think? In this episode of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich welcomes back Hannah Ritchie — Deputy Editor at Our World in Data, researcher at the Oxford Martin School, and author of her new book, Clearing the Air.In Clearing the Air, Hannah tackles 50 of the most common myths and misconceptions about climate solutions, from “Isn’t climate action too polarised and politically divisive to fix?” to “What happens when the wind doesn’t blow?” and “Won’t the world run out of minerals?” Hannah dives into the data behind renewables, electric cars, nuclear power, grids, and even lab-grown meat — cutting through the noise with clarity.Michael quizzes Hannah on why she wrote the book and what she hopes to achieve with it, and whether it has the potential to change the minds of climate skeptics. This conversation offers a grounded, accessible look at what really works, what doesn’t, and why we should feel more hopeful than the doom-filled narratives suggest.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links & more:Clearing The Air: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/462676/clearing-the-air-by-ritchie-hannah/9781784745745Ep147: Dr Hannah Ritchie: https://youtu.be/fMLmeWc7NFoEp178: Dr Andy Palmer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzDWFFRDK8oDecarbonising the Last Few Percent: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/decarbonizing-the-last-few-percent 

What happens when cheap solar flips the script on climate sceptics? Can pumped hydro really deliver the long-duration storage we need? And is “hope” a dangerous comforter in the race to net zero?In this season opener of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Malcolm Turnbull — former Prime Minister of Australia, lawyer, statesman, energy investor, and climate champion. From leading Australia through fierce political battles over climate policy to now spearheading renewable projects through Turnbull Renewables, he offers a rare insider’s perspective on the global clean energy transition.Turnbull and Liebreich explore the clash between optimism and realism in climate action: why cheap solar is reshaping politics, the promise and pitfalls of green hydrogen, and whether pumped hydro could be the long-duration storage solution the world needs. Along the way, they reflect on U.S. politics under Trump, trade negotiations without American leadership, and why “hope is not a strategy” when it comes to energy security.Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Snowy 2.0: https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/International Hydropower Association: https://www.hydropower.org/Green Trade or Green Trade-Off - Ep52: Tony AbbottHow Big Things (Should) Get Done - Ep128: Prof. Bent FlyvbjergIs The Tide Turning On Hydrogen? Ep210: Andrew ForrestYa Basta: https://liebreich.com/214-2/The Spycatcher Trial: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/sep/14/malcolm-turnbull-spycatcher-lawyer-prime-minister

This episode was originally broadcast in February 2024Bryony returns with Bonny Simi, President of Operations at Joby Aviation, where she's working on bringing to market a new civilian electric VTOL (eVTOL) aircraft. Prior to joining the team at Joby, Bonny held several operational and strategic roles at JetBlue Most notably, she founded and led JetBlue Technology Ventures, investing in improving the travel, hospitality, and transportation industries. As a pilot, Bonny has commanded Boeing, Airbus and Embraer aircraft at both United Airlines and JetBlue Airways. She is also an Emmy-nominated sports reporter and a 3-time Olympian in the sport of Luge. She holds a BA in Communications, a MS in Management and a MS in Engineering, all from Stanford University, as well as a MS in Human Resources from Regis University. Links and more:Watch the full video of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldy_NC-Doi4First Piloted eVTOL Air Taxi Flight Between Two Public Airports: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDNo3VYiOcsJoby's website: https://www.jobyaviation.com Read about Joby's partnership with the US DoD here: https://www.jobyaviation.com/news/joby-delivers-first-evtol-edwards/ Hear Bonny talk more about her lessons from competing in luge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj9Ey6fdnT0 Listen to the theme song from Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines (the title inspiration for this episode!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPgS26ZhqZs