Build Fast, Build Now: How China Became an Energy Superpower | Ep262: Professor Ning Li

Since Donald Trump returned to the Presidency in 2025, the US has become increasingly isolationist. It has pulled out of the Paris climate agreement and the IPCC, left the World Health Organisation, as well as a whole host of other international organisations and agencies. So, when President Trump leaves the White House, will the US be able to rebuild trust on the international stage? This week on Cleaning Up, former US Secretary of State and Special Presidential Envoy for Climate John Kerry sits down with Michael Liebreich and reflects on some of the defining diplomatic efforts of his career, from negotiating the Iran nuclear deal to helping secure the Paris Climate Agreement. Secretary Kerry explains how years of relationship-building and behind the scenes diplomacy helped bring Iran to the negotiating table and why he believes the original nuclear agreement succeeded in limiting Iran's nuclear programme. He also shares his frustration at what he sees as the dismantling of agreements and relationships that took years to build, and the challenge of restoring trust in US leadership on the global stage.  Secretary Kerry also shares his perspective on working with China, the importance of international cooperation, and the role diplomacy still has to play. They also discuss rebuilding trust in US leadership, and the shifting balance between the US and China in clean energy. Topics Include: How the Obama administration negotiated limits on Iran's nuclear programme The diplomacy behind the Paris Climate Agreement The meaning of "common but differentiated" in climate diplomacy Lessons from Kyoto, Paris and Dubai on international climate agreements Why engaging adversaries matters more than isolating them How can the U.S. rebuild trust on a global stage? Petrostate vs electrostate: the shifting US-China dynamic Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: John Kerry’s bio: https://galvanizeclimate.com/team/secretary-john-kerry Galvanize https://galvanizeclimate.com/ Our Ocean Conference https://www.ouroceanconference.org/ Todd Stern on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffnZzO6CMI8 Ernie Moniz on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0shzlRv4MTY Acronyms: ADNOC - Abu Dhabi National Oil Company LNG - Liquified Natural Gas OPCW - Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons ESG - Environment, Social and Governance IRGC - Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps

Professor Ning Li has spent decades at the intersection of energy, technology and industrial strategy. A nuclear engineer, complexity scientist and founding Dean of the School of Energy at Xiamen University, he is also credited with coining the term "Small Modular Reactor" nearly 20 years ago. In this wide-ranging conversation with Bryony Worthington, Ning Li explains why China has weathered recent global energy shocks better than many expected, how electrification is transforming economic resilience, and why solar panels, batteries and electric vehicles have become China's most important exports. They explore whether the world is really swapping dependence on fossil fuels for dependence on Chinese electrotech, why modularity has become the defining feature of successful modern technologies, and what lessons other countries can learn from China's rapid industrial scaling. The discussion also covers the future of nuclear power, the role of coal in supporting China's grid, the untapped potential of heat pumps, and why the energy transition should be framed not as a burden, but as an opportunity for growth. Topics include: Why China has been relatively resilient to oil and gas disruptions The rise of the "electrostate" China's new energy exports: EVs, batteries and solar Why modular technologies scale faster The origins of the Small Modular Reactor concept The changing role of coal in China's power system Heat pumps and industrial electrification Nuclear power's future in China Climate action as economic development Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Ning Li bio: https://thebreakthrough.org/people/ning-li Octopus’ Fiona Howarth on the EV partnership with BYD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL64XW5ZRBA

Today, wind power accounts for just under 10% of all electricity globally, around the same as solar, recently overtaking nuclear power. 20 years ago, the figure was under 1%. In that time, the sector’s leadership has moved around from Europe to the US to Asia, but one specialist European manufacturer has stayed in the leading group throughout: Vestas — a member of the global wind energy aristocracy. This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Henrik Andersen, CEO of Vestas, to discuss the extraordinary growth in the wind energy industry, the challenges it faces with rising interest rates and political hostility, and where the best place to build turbines is in 2026.  Together they do some myth-busting and answer: If wind is so great, why does it need subsidies?  Is wind pointless because it’s intermittent? Are turbines killing all the birds? What happens to the turbines at the end of their lives? Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Vestas’ website: https://www.vestas.com/en/pages/campaigns/sustainability/200-gw Henrik Andersen’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/henrik-andersen-/ WindEurope 2026: From crisis to confidence — https://windeurope.org/news/windeurope-2026-from-crisis-to-confidence/

For more than 15 years, the RCP8.5 climate scenario has shaped headlines, policy decisions, financial stress tests and public understanding of climate risk. Now, the scientific community has declared it implausible. So what comes next? This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich welcomes Professor Roger Pielke Jr. back to explore why RCP 8.5 became the dominant "business as usual" climate scenario, and what its demise means for climate research, policymaking and public debate. They discuss the origins of the scenario, how assumptions about coal consumption drove projections beyond plausible futures and ask whether fear-based climate communication has ultimately helped or hindered public support for climate action. They tackle tipping points, extreme weather, climate policy, scientific self-correction, and the crucial question of how societies should respond to climate risk in a world that is still warming. Until recently, Roger was a tenured professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder. He is now senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and publishes an influential Substack called The Honest Broker. He last made an appearance on Cleaning Up in June 2022. If you want to know the background to the RCP8.5 controversy you should listen to that episode, linked below. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Van Vuuren’s 2026 paper on RCP8.5 becoming implausible: https://gmd.copernicus.org/articles/19/2627/2026/ Van Vuuren’s 2011 paper on the development of the Representative Concentration Pathways (RCPs): https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-011-0148-z The Honest Broker Substack: https://rogerpielkejr.substack.com/ Michael's writeup on RCP8.5: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/rcp-85-is-officially-bollox Roger Pielke Jr’s past appearance on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2LpMpkrP1w Johan Rockström on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/eIJkt_mY12s Jim Skea on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/oAWUdL5ZKsk

As electricity demand rises and renewable generation continues to expand, the same question keeps arising: how do we keep power systems reliable, affordable and resilient? This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Håkan Agnevall, CEO of Wärtsilä, to discuss the changing role of flexible generation in modern electricity systems, the growing importance of grid stability, and why balancing technologies will be critical as renewables become an ever-larger share of the global energy mix. They explore how rapidly growing electricity demand, including from data centres, is reshaping investment decisions, why flexible gas generation may play an important transitional role, and how batteries, renewables and thermal assets can work together to build a more resilient power system. The conversation also examines the future of shipping decarbonisation following delays to the International Maritime Organisation’s proposed global carbon-pricing mechanism, the importance of fuel flexibility for vessel owners, and how digital technologies and AI are improving efficiency across industry. Håkan and Michael cover a wide variety of topics, including: Why flexible generation remains essential in renewable-heavy grids How growing electricity demand is changing energy infrastructure planning The role of gas engines, batteries and storage in maintaining grid stability What data centres mean for future power systems Shipping decarbonisation and the IMO's delayed carbon-pricing vote Fuel flexibility and efficiency in maritime transport How industrial companies are using AI to improve performance and reliability Energy security, competitiveness and the changing geopolitical landscape Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Wärtsilä's website: https://www.wartsila.com/ Episode 208 with Anders Lindberg, Wärtsilä's head of energy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtsCCJ4o1WA Episode 229 with Professor Tristan Smith of UCL, on the delayed IMO agreement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUCidkeDto Episode 235 with Rob Dunn, inside the Start Campus data centre: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w

In this special episode of Cleaning Up from San Francisco Climate Week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington unpack the geopolitical shocks reshaping the global energy transition. From escalating tensions in the Gulf and their impact on oil and LNG markets, to China’s accelerating electrification revolution, the conversation explores how energy security, industrial strategy and climate ambition are colliding in real time. Bryony and Michael debate whether the West can realistically compete with China’s manufacturing dominance, why electrification is becoming the defining energy strategy across Europe and Asia, and whether hydrogen has any meaningful role left to play. They also examine California’s energy paradox, the future of AI-driven electricity demand, and whether nuclear power can help meet the coming compute boom. Along the way, they tackle the politics of trade, the economics of resilience, the rise of clean tech nationalism, and the uncomfortable societal questions posed by artificial intelligence and automation. This episode covers: The energy implications of instability in the Middle East Why electrification is accelerating globally China’s EV and battery dominance The future of LNG, coal and renewables in Asia  Why Michael thinks hydrogen is dead policy walking AI, data centres and the coming electricity crunch California’s clean energy transformation Whether nuclear power can support the AI revolution Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Absolutely Electrifying - Ep158: Saul Griffith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=238XVTF4ang How Nvidia Made Chips 100,000x More Efficient | Ep215: Josh Parker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0KtA9WKZ3U The Future of Clean Tech Under Trump — Ep198: Jigar Shah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOaF-qQ_TU

The energy system is not about supply and exports and generation and distribution. It's about how we use energy in our daily lives and workplaces. The so-called energy trilemma, affordability versus reliability versus environmental performance looks very theoretical in the boardrooms of an NGO or a consulting company. But it's not theoretical at all for someone struggling to run their life, do their job and pay their bills. What we need is a system focused on usage, not on supply. Joining Michael on Cleaning Up this week is Harish Hande, a Bangalore-based social entrepreneur, co-founder and CEO of the Selco Foundation, which focuses on decentralized solar energy solutions for underserved communities. A graduate of IIT Kharagpur with a master’s and PhD in energy engineering from the University of Massachusetts, Harish has over three decades of grassroots experience using sustainable energy to drive poverty reduction in rural India. In 2011, he received the Ramon Magsaysay Award for his efforts to make solar power accessible and affordable for the poor through innovative, livelihood‑linked energy services. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: The Selco Foundation: https://selcofoundation.org/ Impact Investing Has it Backward: https://nextbillion.net/impact-investing-backward-time-prioritize-needs-social-enterprises-not-just-investors/ How Solar is Saving 100s of Lives in Sierra Leone — Ep204: Project Bo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-5QjSfy2SM A Life of Energy Access and Inclusion - Ep20: Richenda Van Leeuwen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tyk1xcf7nQ What India Gets Right About The Energy Transition | Ep226: Dr Arunabha Ghosh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMrn-JewoCo  

Every single scenario for the future that looks at a cleaner energy system has electrification growing to 60, 70, 80% or more, and yet we don't make rapid progress. Why? One of the reasons we don't make progress lies in narratives and culture wars. We hear about heat pumps that don't work, we hear about electric vehicles that don't work, we hear that electrification can't work for high temperature heat and so on, and then we hear a narrative that there is a false solution that will work much better: hydrogen.  So how do we electrify things faster? By focussing on what we can do right now, commercially at scale, and removing the barriers that slow those sectors down.  Presenting the Electrification Staircase, a tool that breaks down the “Electrify Everything” argument into what can be achieved now, what will be in the near future, and what needs more support to come into being by the middle of the century.  This week on Cleaning Up, Michael is joined by the authors of the Electrification Staircase to explore their thinking behind it, how it can be used, and what can be done to get electrification moving even faster.  The authors are Adrian Hiel, Director of the Electrification Alliance, Silvia Madeddu, Solutions Architect at Schneider Electric, William Drake, analyst at Liebreich Associates and Thomas Butler, associate at the Regulatory Assistance Project, as well as Michael Liebreich.  Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: The Electrification Staircase: https://www.watts-next.eu/app/uploads/07b50d4f71ed1ece03c6cbac-electrification-staircase.png  The Electrification Staircase Appendix: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qfn6xR7g7dXSZTlfkxcpOa8Pp0WKj7BW/view?usp=sharing The Electrification Alliance: https://electrification-alliance.eu/ Regulatory Assistance Project: https://www.raponline.org/ Sylvia Madeddu’s Past appearance on Cleanig Up: https://perspectives.se.com/youtube-sustainability-business-schneider-electric/ep103-dr-silvia-madeddu-industrial-heat-is-electrifying

This week Cleaning Up is back in Brussels, with a deep dive into European energy policy as the continent grapples with the reality of ambitious climate targets, very high energy prices and the vulnerabilities of first Russia's attack on Ukraine, and Israel and the US's recent attack on Iran.  Michael Liebreich sits down with a rising star of the European Parliament, Thomas Pellerin-Carlin, for a timely conversation at the intersection of energy, geopolitics, and climate strategy. What begins as a discussion on EU energy policy quickly broadens into a much bigger conversation: a blueprint for Europe’s survival in a volatile world. Thomas argues that the war in Ukraine is not just about territory, it’s about Europe’s future. And one of the main battlefields? Energy. The key to peace, he says, lies in breaking Russia’s ability to turn oil and gas into power, through a global transition to clean energy. From the inner workings of EU policymaking to the struggle between fossil fuel interests and the Green Deal, this episode dives into: Why Europe must electrify for its own peace and security The political battles shaping the future of EVs, nuclear, and renewables Whether Europe can compete with China and the U.S. in clean tech The concept of an “electro-democracy” alliance Why energy independence may be the only path to freedom Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links and more: Thomas’ Bio: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/256903/THOMAS_PELLERIN-CARLIN/home The 130 Trillion-Dollar Man - Ep84: Mark Carney: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtA5ufMzKAU The Dane who Harnessed the Wind - Ep139: Henrik Stiesdal: https://youtu.be/7rjuZ_aCsFQ  

What happens when global energy supply chains can no longer be trusted? Has the U.S. given up its edge in the clean energy race to China? And can politics keep up with the speed of the energy transition and the rise of AI? This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with former U.S. Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm for a wide-ranging conversation on the future of global energy, politics, and clean technology. They explore how geopolitical tensions, from disruptions in the Strait of Hormuz to shifting alliances, are reshaping global energy markets and accelerating the move away from fossil fuels. Granholm offers an insider’s perspective on the impact of U.S. policy decisions under both Joe Biden and Donald Trump, including the rise, and partial dismantling, of the Inflation Reduction Act and what that means for US clean energy investment, manufacturing, and competitiveness. The discussion dives into the growing divide between ‘petrostate; U.S. and ‘electrostate’ China, the global race for dominance in electric vehicles and battery storage (with companies like BYD leading the charge), and the unintended consequences of tariffs and industrial policy. Looking ahead, Granholm reflects on lessons learned from her time in office, what a future Democratic administration might do differently, and the political and economic challenges shaping the road to the next presidential election 2028: inflation, energy affordability, and the disruptive impact of AI on jobs. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links and more: What Democrats Can Learn From the Trump Energy Playbook: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-01-26/jennifer-granholm-democrats-should-use-trump-playbook-for-climate For Real Energy Dominance, We Need the IRA: https://heatmap.news/ideas/energy-dominance-ira-granholm Can Data Centres Play Nice With The Grid? Varun Sivaram & Steve Smith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kSrgRZUCwE ⁠The Future of Clean Tech Under Trump — Ep198: Jigar Shah: https://youtu.be/PCOaF-qQ_TU Why Renewables Are Booming Despite the Politics | Ep245: Miguel Stilwell d'Andrade: https://youtu.be/5oL_XlZ8k_M How the US Lost The Race for Clean Energy | Ep 219: Ethan Zindler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQLkLXt9Uek