637. Why We Burn Out From the Thing We Love Doing

In this special series kickoff, Lesley Logan opens an honest conversation about burnout and how it can quietly build around the things you love doing—often without you realizing it. She explores the irony of burning out from the things we are passionate about, the three key signs defined by the WHO, and why high achievers are most at risk of losing their “muchness.” If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:The three parts of burnout as defined by the World Health Organization.Why chronic stress can quietly build even when you love your work.What makes burnout show up differently for women than men.How emotional labor and always-on expectations contribute to burnout.What burnout can actually look like before it is clearly recognized.Episode References/Links:Submit your wins or questions - https://beitpod.com/questionsBurn-Out an “Occupational Phenomenon” – https://beitpod.com/burnoutWhy Ambitious Women Burn Out - https://beitpod.com/burnout2 If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentCheck out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper’s Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentBe in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlistBe It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-surveyBe a part of Lesley’s Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gLesley Logan website https://lesleylogan.co/Be It Till You See It Podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjogqXLnfyhS5VlU4rdzlnQProfitable Pilates https://profitablepilates.com/about/Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesley.logan/The Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gFacebook https://www.facebook.com/llogan.pilatesLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-logan/The OPC YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@OnlinePilatesClasses Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  It's so easy for us to love what we're doing, but create chronic stress around it, and so then we burn out from the thing we love doing. Lesley Logan 0:08  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Lesley Logan 0:50  Hello, Be It babe. How are you? Oh my gosh. Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It Podcast. You know, normally we do interviews on Tuesdays and recaps on Thursdays and FYFs on Fridays, and everyone's well, I just want to do like a topic, because we've had some amazing guests on it, and I want to revisit that with you, right? I think it'd be a lot of fun. So in doing that, I want us to discuss burnout. We've have a self-love series, we have a habit series. And you know, something that I get a lot from the women that listen this podcast and we work with is just like, the difficulty in preventing burnout, and also, just like, are they ever not burned out and all that good stuff? Because in being it until you see it, it's really easy for y'all to be just overachievers at it, and just like, go harder than one needs to, right? And so I want to just give us. I want us to be on. I want us to have the tools to be it until we see it. And that means understanding burnout and how to prevent it. So this episode will be, what is burnout, so we can be really clear about what it is. I think it's important to be able to name something versus like, what's depression, what's overwhelm, things like that. And then also the second episode, beyond like preventions, like things you can actually do, because you guys are action takers, and I love that so much. Lesley Logan 2:05  So what is burnout? Why do we have burnout? What does it look like? That's what this episode is. If you're like Lesley, I've got it. Well, you can wait till Thursday. But just in case, you know, I think it's important to go over this. And I saw this quote, yeah, as I was preparing for this episode, and it said from the Mad Hatter, and it said, you've lost your muchness. You used to be much, muchier. And I think that, like that can be a sign of burnout, if you, like, lost your muchness, right? But get this the World Health Organization (WHO), actually has defined what burnout is. And so I think that's great. I think, like, let's go with the science. The burnout is a syndrome tied to unsuccessfully managed workplace stress. Like, obviously it can be personal stuff too, so well. But like, WHO is doing this from this part. So it's made up of three parts, exhaustion, feeling distant or cynical towards your job and reduced performance at work. Dr. Ashley, who has since become an expert on this topic, and is a self-proclaimed burnout doctor, she said, I think you can get burnout from any chronic stress situation. So I think that that is helpful, because, like, the simpler sentence, what WHO was trying to say, is any chronic stress situation that can provide burnout. And this is interesting you guys, because it's so easy for us to love what we're doing, but create chronic, chronic stress around it, and so then we burn out from the thing we love doing. And we'll talk about why that happens. So burnout is serious. In severe cases, it can cause premature aging of the brain. This is, this is insanity to me, because, like, oh my God, we cannot let our brains age sooner than they need to, and if you're under 45 your chance of dying from all causes goes up. I mean, let that just sink in, and it's indicated by a study they did a scientific journal, PLO S1, Dr. Ashley estimates it can take one to three years to recover from burnout. You know, as a kid, I remember like, my mom had a job that, like, was really stressful for her, and she slept the whole summer. And I remember my dad having to, like, leave work on stress leave like these it can take one to three years recover, and I do believe it did for both of them. So it's really, really important that we don't just go, oh, this is the busy season I'm in, you know, and dismiss it like we should be stronger and we shouldn't be feeling this way. Lesley Logan 4:25  Why is burnout happening more often? So, increase caregiver and emotional labor. So obviously, this episode, this podcast, is really designed for women. We have few good men who listen. Thank you so much. And it is so we've mostly women listeners. So I'm just going to talk about the women's aspect of burnout. So women often carry the mental load for their households. And this is so true. I see it in a lot of my friends who are moms, you know, like they remember everything. They're coordinating the childcare, they're managing family needs and often caring for aging parents. They also frequently are expected to manage the emotions of those around them at both at work and at home. Home, which is why, like it's possible to have a stressful job, but then if your home life is also demanding of you, then it like you don't have a refuge, right? And so that can be really, really difficult. Cultural expectations, the style norms, can pressure women to be nurturers, always available and have to have it all, creating unrealistic standards and feelings of inadequacy when these expectations aren't met. And this is also something that I've seen because, to be honest, I have a I have some friends, I've like, friends in air quotes that I've known from groups that we have been in, and I'm watching their posts on Instagram, and they're just like, so beautiful all the time, so put together. Even when they're like, I'm not put together, they're so put together. Like, their background is so beautiful, their house is so well decorated, and they're showing like, oh, I can be this, like, person who, like, makes sourdough, and I also am a badass in the workplace. That's amazing. That's wonderful. I hope they're so happy, but also, like, it can set up an expectation that we should all be feeling the same way as them, in the same place of our life. And like, that's just not the case, right? We don't all have the same 24 hours in a day. So the always on culture, a sense of constant responsibility, combined with social media pressure to maintain a perfect image contributes to a feeling of being always on and unable to truly rest. Lesley Logan 6:13  This is something I have really had to grapple with in the last five years, because a lot of the work that I do is on camera, you know? And I always was like, Oh, my God, maybe I have to, like, I have to, like, get ready. I have to do my makeup. I didn't even finish it today. If you're watching this on the YouTube channel, like, I, like, I started this recording, like, oh, we have no mascara on. Like, I got really good at going, you know what? I have to put out this content. I have to do all this stuff for the work that we do, that I that I that I created because I love this podcast, I love the memberships that I have, but I cannot also expect myself to be, in air quotes, on all the time. And so first of all, since day one, I've always just been myself online. I don't really know how to be anything else. And two, that means I don't match I don't always have my hair done, I don't always have these things. And so by just being myself, it has really helped me overcome the Always On pressures that can be out there. But if you are feeling that like that is a real pressure that is out there. And I understand that, and I it's difficult, but I hope that you can truly allow yourself to be yourself and everywhere you are and and you're allowed to have feelings and things like that. But if your workplace doesn't allow that, if, if the standards you set for yourself don't allow for that, if the people in your life don't allow for that, that can that means that you're always on, and that can be a pressure that's causing burnout in your life. Lesley Logan 7:26  So there are also some workplace factors that I think are really important to go over. Obviously, some of you who are listening don't have the opportunity to control the workplace. Some of you have created your own workplace. And so if any of these factors are in your workplace you created, we definitely want to, you know, unravel that if you have these factors in the workplace that you are in, then I definitely think it's worth going okay, at least I can pinpoint part of where this burnout is coming from. So inequitable workloads, women may face additional work outside of their formal roles, such as supporting colleagues, and have less flexibility in their jobs. We had an FYF of a few weeks back where I actually discussed, like, how men are given workplace reviews and women are given workplace reviews, and it's really annoying, because women's workplace reviews are often on, like, their personality versus like, the actual job that they did. So this is this can create chronic stress in the situation at your work. Couple that with like, what you've got going on at home, and you have a recipe for burnout, right? Gender pay and inequality. The gender wage gap and workplace discrimination creates stress, while limited career advancement opportunities and a lack of recognition for contributions exacerbate burnout. I mean, we all are aware that women are not paid the same amount as men, and then you add in race, and that is, it makes it even more of a pay gap. So if you happen to be a woman of a of color, you all you already are probably experiencing more factors towards your burnout. And so if you're feeling it like it's real, right? And I hate that for you, but I also think it's important that we don't deny that that's what's going on. And then lack of support. In professional environments, a lack of support from senior leaders and gender biases can make burnout more likely in this, yeah, lack of support in general, in life, can create burnout like it's so I have ADHD, so it's not easy for me to ask for help. I have to like practice. And the reality is is like, we all need it. We all need help. No one is supposed to do life alone. Lesley Logan 9:18  And then I just want to add this from Psychology Today, because in my research for this, I found a couple things that made me think of you. So y'all are high achievers. There's nothing wrong being a high achiever, right? Overachieving is exhausting. High achieving, nothing wrong with it, but high achieving women are at a greater risk of burnout and identity erosion due to chronic self-neglect. And you know, on this podcast, we talk a lot about prioritizing yourself first, so that that could be something that is actually causing the burnout. You could love what you do. You could love the family you have, but if you're and you probably do, but if you are lacking that prioritization of self and neglecting you, then you're going to, even with all the things you love, create burnout experience and then burnout why it's so, so important to pay attention to is that burnout can lead to anxiety, depression and a loss of personal meaning, connection. That's a big deal. It's a big deal. Not only are you not able to even have anything to be it till you see, but it can cause you to have missed experiences and relationships that that you probably care so much about, partners, family members, children, things like that. So it's really, really important that we address burnout and that we discuss, like, what it looks like, so that we can prevent it, and we'll talk about that in the next episode. Lesley Logan 10:28  But some common signs, just in case you're like, okay, I don't have it. So signs of burnout in women may include chronic fatigue, decreased motivation, feelings of inefficiency, increased irritability, disrupted sleep patterns, withdraw from social activities. So obviously these things can also look like perimenopause. They can look like depression. But you know, we had, we had somebody on the pod who is like, I'm not depressed, right? Not depressed, but I'm not fulfilled. So it, I think that it's important to be like, wow, if I know I'm not depressed, if I don't feel that way, but I have increased irritability, and I'm withdrawing from social activities. You know, if I'm decreasing motivation, I'm usually a very motivated person, there's something going on. And instead of thinking there's something wrong with you, we can look around what's going on in my world that is causing these things that are not normal for me. So with all that, you know, I definitely have had burnout in my life, you know, like we talk not much in recent past, because I'm because I've gotten so good at spotting what it looks like in my body and in my life and how I'm reacting to things. But I remember back in probably right before our wedding, I was, it was my day off, and I was driving to the mall to go buy something for myself. I were going to a party. I was like, I'm gonna go buy this thing. Like, it should be so exciting. It should be so fun. And I saw an email pop up, you know, those like little notifications on this email pop up, and it just sent me into having a total anxiety. I don't have anxiety, sent me to total anxiety attack. I had to pull over, had to call Brad, you know. And what we discovered is that, like, you just sit down and like, actually look at what's going on. And my workplace experience was just so stressful, even though I loved what I did, I love the people I worked with. I love teaching. I love being a teacher. I loved all of it, but the truth is, is that the people around me were creating a chronic stress experience. And so we got really clear on the numbers that I needed to make in my personal business, and we made a plan, and I worked that plan, and I was able to get out of that job, and I was able to notice, oh, oh, here are the things I am creating chronic stress in my own situation that I created myself. And so you're not going to be perfect at stopping before burnout, but if you can notice what it feels like in your body and how it how it is presenting itself, it makes it easier. Lesley Logan 12:54  So I'm gonna wrap up the episode here, because I know you're really busy, and I don't want this podcast to be part of the chronic stress that you have in your life. So thank you so much for listening to this series, all the series. If you are enjoying the series we're doing, I would love to know the topic you want us to like, do a little more research on, have a little more talk about it. Or if there's guests that you want to like us to have on the pod, you can definitely send those in. Mean the world to me if you leave a review and share this with a friend who needs to hear it, maybe you have a friend who's like, exhibiting all these signs, and it would just be helpful for them to be like, oh, nothing wrong with me. I'm just in a really crappy situation that is causing this kind of feeling and behavior in my body, in my life, and I there's that means we, once we know that, once we're aware, that we can make changes. We can't make changes if we're not aware, right? So thank you so much. And until next time, Be It Till You See It. Lesley Logan 13:40  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod. Brad Crowell 14:23  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 14:29  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 14:33  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 14:40  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 14:43  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This Fuck Yeah Friday, Lesley Logan shares the story of Dr. James Barry, a woman who changed medical history by defying the limits placed on her. The episode also includes a community win around collaboration and referrals, along with a personal reflection on how small steps build momentum. It offers a grounded reminder that progress builds through consistency, not perfection. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:How refusing limits on her identity allowed a woman to reshape medical history.The importance of women supporting communities so everyone benefits.How long-term client relationships grow through shared history and trust.Why collaboration grows stronger through open referrals and support.How confidence and momentum grow by simply getting started.Episode References/Links:Submit your wins or questions - https://beitpod.com/questionsHerWiki - https://www.instagram.com/p/DQS1YGZCOZd If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentCheck out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper’s Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentBe in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlistBe It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-surveyBe a part of Lesley’s Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gLesley Logan website https://lesleylogan.co/Be It Till You See It Podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjogqXLnfyhS5VlU4rdzlnQProfitable Pilates https://profitablepilates.com/about/Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesley.logan/The Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gFacebook https://www.facebook.com/llogan.pilatesLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-logan/The OPC YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@OnlinePilatesClasses Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  It's Fuck Yeah Friday. Brad Crowell 0:01  Fuck yeah. Lesley Logan 0:02  Get ready for some wins. Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. Lesley Logan 0:48  Happy last Friday of January 2026. Holy freaking molly. This is crazy. It's crazy. Oh my goodness. How are you, babe? Really? I am so grateful that you are spending some time listening to this podcast. I do not take it lightly. I am obsessed with what we're creating. I cannot believe how deep into the 600 episodes we are. It is mind boggling to me, to be completely honest. So we're gonna kick this off with something that inspired me. This is insanity. This is gonna blow your mind and like, create things to talk about during your day. If you're like, oh my God, I don't know how to talk to this person, you should talk about this. All right. So for 56 years, the British Army's top surgeon had a secret so explosive, they buried the records for a century to hide it. Even Florence Nightingale never figured it out. Margaret Ann Bulkley, was born in 1809 Ireland. At 15, she watched her father rot in debtors prison, while her uncle, a famous artist, refused to help. Historians think she was raped, got pregnant, had to hide the baby as her sister. But Margaret didn't break. She did something so insane, so brilliant, that 200 years later, we're still shook by the audacity of it all. She killed Margaret Bulkley. Became James Barry, bound her chest, deepened her voice, and walked into the Edinburgh, Edinburgh Medical School like she owned the place. The other students thought he was a prepubescent boy. Too young, too smooth-faced. The university tried blocking the degree. But Barry had allies. In 1812, Dr. James Barry graduates, moved to London, becomes an army surgeon. The transformation was complete. Margaret was dead. James was unstoppable. Posted to Cape Town. Barry didn't just treat white colonists. He fought for enslaved people, prisoners, lepers. Made enemies everywhere. His temper was legendary. Once got into a pistol duel, shot the peak off the other guy's hat. Message delivered, don't f with Dr. Barry. Then came the moment that should have exposed everything. A woman with a complicated pregnancy needed a C-section. No European had done one in Africa and kept both the mother and the child alive. Barry doesn't has, didn't hesitate, cut her open, pulled out the baby, stitched her up. Both survived. They named the child James Barry. In honor. For 46 years, Barry rose through the ranks, became Inspector General. I mean, the most beautiful, like, just look at that. Oh, like angelic. Became Inspector General, second highest medical position in the British Army, reformed hospitals everywhere. Florence Nightingale called her or the most hardened creature I've ever met. She had no idea she was beefing with a woman fighting tooth and nail trying to survive. Barry had rules. Nobody enters while I'm undressing. If I die, bury me in my sheets. No examination, no preparation, just bury me fast. But on July 25th 1865 Barry dies of dysentery. The chairwoman preparing the body makes a discovery that rocks the British Empire to its core. Not just female anatomy, stretch marks, signs of childbirth. The second highest medical officer in the British Army had been a woman all along. The army went into damage control, sealed the records for 100 years, tried to make it disappear, but the truth was already spreading. The woman who couldn't get into university because of her sex had just spent 56 years as British Army's most decorated doctor. She performed surgeries men couldn't reform, healthcare systems saved thousands, all while, one discovery away from losing everything. They tried to bury her as Margaret, but she'd already buried, already buried that girl in 1809, she died as she lived as Dr. James Barry, on her own terms. Everyone who's been told that's not for girls, this is your ancestor. So whether we want to call them Dr. Barry or Mark like she I think Dr. Barry, this person's a badass, amazing and just goes to show us all that, like, like, things can happen and they can change you, and you can still change the world. You can still take all of that and go and change the world. And it's hard. I'm sure it was so difficult for this person, no wonder they were angry. No wonder people were fighting them, like, I can't even imagine. But also like, wow, way to pave ways, and way to make discoveries and save lives, and not just fight for one side, but also, like for the lives of other people. We can do a lot of things. So just proof that when women are in communities, we support the whole community. It's kind of amazing. Lesley Logan 5:17  All right, your win for today that you've sent in. So you can send in your wins to beitpod.com/questions you can send a question, you can send a win. But this is from MelissaYNagai. She's been with us for so long, and I love that she still sends her wins into us. So I realized today that every client I taught has done Pilates for years. Two go to yoga studios for mat, some have moved closer to me, so switched. A couple worked with me at a previous studio I worked at, and now here with me. Also, several of them have taken time off Pilates, but keep coming back. And that's so cool. I think that's so cool. I think it's so awesome. Also, that you're celebrating that they've been doing it for years. It's not just with you that, like they've just been doing it for years, and like it used to be when we all started teaching Melissa, I'm sure the same way, it's like, like, most people didn't even know what Pilate was. And now we have people who've been doing Pilates for years and years and years, and yes, people are still discovering it, but like, it's possible to have all these people just have, like, a lot of history doing Pilates. You also sent in, had some of the team from the health and wellness unlimited out to my home studio space for a bit of conversation how they can help make referrals, plus a mini workout. This is the clinic I share space with my second studio. And I just absolutely love that you are spreading the good word and inviting people in to see how we can collaborate more. Y'all, like, Pilates or whatever it is that you do. This isn't always Pilates. People who are listening whatever is that you do. It's better in collaboration. Everything is, you know, and it's hard to do because we're like, oh my God, why would they work with me? Or I don't know. I don't want them to think I'm still, no one is, I don't I you're not if you're listening this podcast, you're probably not an asshole, and you're unlikely to steal anybody's anything. But like, we can help people. My chiropractor sends us members. We send my people to my chiropractor. Like, it's just how it makes the world go round. And isn't that great? People want good referrals. So I love that you're shining from the rooftops, like, how what you do can support what they do. And I think I love that this is a win, Melissa, because we can all learn from that. Like, how can I work with someone over there who does something different than me, but with people who are the same as who I work with? How can we work together more? That's what makes things a community. That's what makes people feel less alone. Lesley Logan 6:09  All right, your, oh, my win. I always was like, okay, done, nailed it. You know, my win is, I was reflecting a bit about last year. I take a little while because, like, to me, I'm on tour for when the New Year happens. So I took some time. And on my vacation, I thought about, like, oh, I wanted to read 25 books in 2025 like, did I do that? I did. I read more. And I actually realized, like, because I started reading again, like, how fast I read again. And, like, I read things all over the place, like, all over different subjects and genres. And I really enjoy that. And I also count Audible books as reading a book. So because I listen to Audible books and read physical books, and I love reading physical books, that's just not always an option, especially when I'm on tour, that like, I could probably read even more. So, you know, definitely 26 in 26 but you know, it really, it felt really kind of daunting when I was like, oh, am I gonna read 25 books? How am I gonna read 25 books, especially when the first few just took a little longer than I thought. But the reality is, like you just get started. Just get started. And so I hope that helps you. If that is a goal of yours, to read more, and that's my win for this week. See how simple a win can be. I've read some books. Yes, I did, and I'm so like, you just it's actually quite nice to read a book. Lesley Logan 8:38  Okay, I grow towards my interests like a plant reaching for the sun. I grow towards my interests like a plant reaching for the sun. I grow towards my interest like a plant reaching for the sun. Oh yeah. Like chew on that all weekend long, loves. All right. Send this to a friend who needs to hear it. It really would help this podcast grow. Send your questions and your wins in. We love sharing them and listening to them and until next time, Be It Till You See It. Lesley Logan 9:09  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 9:51  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 9:56  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 10:01  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 10:08  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 10:11  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Retirement isn’t just a financial equation—it’s an identity shift. In this recap, Lesley Logan and Brad Crowell reflect on the conversation with wealth advisor and researcher Gregg Lunceford, who challenges the traditional retirement model by focusing on identity, purpose, and emotional readiness. They explore why longer lifespans have reshaped retirement entirely and why high performers often struggle most when their job no longer defines them. Whether listeners are 25 or 65, this conversation reframes what freedom after work can truly look like. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:How increased longevity has made traditional pension models obsolete.The reality of the 20-year life bonus after your career ends.Why high achievers struggle to uncover a non-work identity.How intentional communities support mental and emotional well-being.The importance of creating a shared retirement vision as a couple.Episode References/Links:Agency Mini - https://prfit.biz/miniContrology Pilates Conference in Poland - https://xxll.co/polandContrology Pilates Conference in Brussels - https://xxll.co/brusselsPOT in London - https://xxll.co/potSpring Training: How To Get Overhead - https://opc.me/eventsSubmit your wins or questions - https://beitpod.com/questionsThe Seeing Eye - https://seeingeye.orgMesirow Wealth Management - https://www.mesirow.comGregg Lunceford on LinkedIn - https://beitpod.com/greggluncefordExit From Work - https://a.co/d/fR25gH2 If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentCheck out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper’s Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentBe in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlistBe It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-surveyBe a part of Lesley’s Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gLesley Logan website https://lesleylogan.co/Be It Till You See It Podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjogqXLnfyhS5VlU4rdzlnQProfitable Pilates https://profitablepilates.com/about/Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesley.logan/The Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gFacebook https://www.facebook.com/llogan.pilatesLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-logan/The OPC YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@OnlinePilatesClasses Episode Transcript:Brad Crowell 0:01  He was talking about football players, and he was talking about people who have, you know, high performance people who make a shitload of money, and then they retire and they, he said, they burn through a lot of money trying to figure out who they are.Lesley Logan 0:17  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. Brad Crowell 1:01  Take it away. Lesley Logan 1:03  Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co-host in life, Brad, and I are going to dig into the trailblazing, trail, trailblazing. Brad Crowell 1:12  Wanna try that again?Lesley Logan 1:16  Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co-host in life, don't laugh at me. I don't want to start again. Brad Crowell 1:22  No. The Welcome back was perfect. It was amazing. Lesley Logan 1:25  Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co-host in life, Brad, and I are going to dig into the trailblazing convo I have with Gregg Lunceford in our last episode. If you haven't yet listened to that interview, you fucked up. It's so good. Brad Crowell 1:41  It's a great interview. Lesley Logan 1:42  He's a great educator. He blew my mind.Brad Crowell 1:46  So inspirational. Lesley Logan 1:47  Yeah.Brad Crowell 1:48  You actually, literally said my internal dialog out loud to him towards the end of the interview, because you were like, yeah, after listening to you, I'm so excited for this next chapter of my life. And I was like me too. It was amazing.Lesley Logan 2:06  I know, I know, I, your parents need to listen to this stat. Brad Crowell 2:10  Yeah, he's a badass. Lesley Logan 2:11  So anyways, they won't even be out, and they're making decisions right now, maybe we have to get them an episode early. Okay, so you can come back and listen to it later. You can finish this and you can listen to that one, or I gotta finish the script. You can listen to this one, or you can listen to that one first, whichever you want to do. But just you gotta listen.Brad Crowell 2:28  You did not have to finish the script. You can just let it go. Lesley Logan 2:32  I could also just close the loop on that. Brad Crowell 2:35  That was the only loop that you know. Lesley Logan 2:37  Well, you know what, Sir. Brad Crowell 2:40  Today is January 29th.Lesley Logan 2:42  It's just after my birthday. You can still wish me a happy birthday. It's the anniversary to celebrate Seeing Eye Guide Dogs. So the Seeing Eye Guide Dog Anniversary is an appreciation for all the dogs who act as their owners' eyes and ears. The devotion and taught abilities of these particular canines keep them safe and enable them to operate as a fully functional persons. The day is meant to recognize a school that educates them. Seeing eye dogs go through extensive training to be able to, say, safely traverse the environment and all of its hazards for their person. That's why they're so worthy of this recognition. Okay, so I don't have a seeing eye dog. Obviously, we don't know anyone who in our life who has a seeing eye dog, but I have watched the dog who could tell a girl was about to have a seizure before she had it, and then opened the fridge and pulled out her medicine and gave it to her while she was having this like seizure. Brad Crowell 3:37  That's crazy. Lesley Logan 3:38  Crazy. And I have met people with dogs who can sense if they're about to have, like, an insulin situation, because they have some, like, a type of insulin diabetes where, like, it can change really drastically. I have definitely seen people with seeing eye dogs, and I'm so impressed. And so really, the rest of the days sucked. And this is the best one of all the choices. Brad Crowell 4:00  I like this one, though. Lesley Logan 4:01  I really like this one, because here's the deal. Brad Crowell 4:03  So the organization is actually called The Seeing Eye. Lesley Logan 4:06  Oh. Brad Crowell 4:07  Yeah. And I, I'm just realizing that as well. Lesley Logan 4:10  Okay, well, they got up, they didn't pay for the sponsorship, because they're doing great work out there for people who need it. Brad Crowell 4:14  It's a guide dog school. Lesley Logan 4:16  And I am just kind of obsessed with this. And so if this inspired you in any way you should go donate money to your local no kill animal shelter, because while those dogs won't be a seeing eye dog or a service dog, they certainly need your help. This is really or you could donate to your seeing eye dog school if they need the money like you never know. You might your life could change. You might need a dog that's a service animal. So I just was, you know, anything to help raise money and thoughts about, please don't buy a puppy. Go get go adopt an animal. They have puppies too. Brad Crowell 4:48  You know what is amazing. I'm reading about the school, and I think that my elementary school teacher went to the school, because when we were in school, she somehow lost her vision, and I remember she.Lesley Logan 5:07  You were taught by someone who couldn't see?Brad Crowell 5:10  No, when I was taught by her, she could. But then, like in a year or two later, when I was like, in fourth or fifth grade, we we found out that she lost her vision, and I remember her going to Braille school. And I'm pretty sure she went to seeing eye dog school. Lesley Logan 5:25  That's so cool. Brad Crowell 5:26  Because think about it, if you're like, you know, 5060, years old, and you've never worked with a dog before like that, how would you even know how?Lesley Logan 5:34  Yeah, no, you have to get trained. Okay? But now this opens up a whole thing. So then she couldn't do the thing that she loved to do. She couldn't teach anymore. Brad Crowell 5:41  I'm pretty sure she retired. Lesley Logan 5:43  Oh, that's such a. So wait, this sucks. If you're blind, what are your jobs? You could be a phone sex operator.Brad Crowell 5:52  Yes, you could be a phone sex operator. That's not what I was gonna go, but yeah, you could do that, but.Lesley Logan 5:56  But you can make a lot of money doing this. You could do you could be a 900 psychic.Brad Crowell 6:01  You could be a 900 psychic, or you could just talk on the phone, too.Lesley Logan 6:05  Yeah, yeah. With technology today, I think they probably have more options, but I just realized, like, that would suck, like, all of a sudden she can't teach anymore. What if she couldn't even retire?Brad Crowell 6:15  No, it's, it's very traumatic, you know? I mean, we have a close friend of ours whose husband was, he has a, like a degenerative disease that didn't strike until he was in his, you know, midlife.Lesley Logan 6:31  We do? Brad Crowell 6:32  We do. Lesley Logan 6:33  Oh, is it blind, is he going blind? Brad Crowell 6:35  No, but, but the idea of being able, of being an abled body and then all of a sudden, everything that was quote, unquote normal for you is no longer an option. And that scares, that scares me.Lesley Logan 6:49  Scares the hell out of me. But, okay, Dark tangent, dark comedy tangent. Okay, I think it was the French, it was a European commercial. Do you remember this thing? It came through at my Instagram, and this, like, got this woman and this guy, like, wake up on a couch. They like, had, you know, obviously had sex last night, and like, they woke on the couch, and he's like, no, I gotta go. She's like, you could stay. And then, like, he is, like, getting up, and he like, puts himself in his wheelchair. And then this guy opens up the door to the apartment, and he's like, what's going on here? And so clearly, the woman was cheating on her partner, and the whole thing was like, what, like, you know, just maybe think before you park in someone else's spot, or like using the bathroom, or like using the handicap parking and using the handicapped bathroom, and it I died laughing. I cried laughing because, like, what a great way to get people to go. Oh, I'm fucking using that restroom, or I've never parked in those spots because in LA, one of my girlfriends was just parked there to take a phone call and she got a ticket. Don't do it, guys, they don't care if you don't leave the car. Don't do it. It's for someone else. It is someone else's spot. But just made me laugh. I know this is all about seeing eye dogs, and I thought it was a great advertisement for not being a dickhead.Brad Crowell 8:08  Well, what a fun turn this took. Lesley Logan 8:10  Okay. Well, everyone, look, you, your life could change in an instant. So if there is a charity in your area that is helping people get service animals into the hands of people that need it, this is their I'm sponsoring an ad for them. Go give them some money. Give them some time. Brad Crowell 8:27  Participate. Lesley Logan 8:27  Yeah, you never know. Maybe you could become a really good trainer for one of these dogs. You don't know. You know, they people in prison are training some of these dogs so there's great work going out there. So everyone needs a hobby. This could be yours. Brad Crowell 8:39  I love it. Lesley Logan 8:40  All right, you guys, we are home. Brad Crowell 8:43  Yeah, we are, we are. Lesley Logan 8:44  I know where we are in the world. We are home. Brad Crowell 8:47  We are officially home. And last week was Lesley's birthday. Lesley Logan 8:52  Was fabulous. Brad Crowell 8:52  It was fabuloso.Lesley Logan 8:53  It was so fun. I think it's my new theme every year. I don't know. I'll probably change it next time. I'm an Aquarius, who knows, whatever. But it was great. 43 it's looking good, and we're getting ready for Agency Mini, which is next month. Lesley Logan 9:06  Yes, February. Agency Mini, in fact, it's a good chance it's on early bird right now, to be honest. Brad Crowell 9:11  Could be, could be, yeah. Lesley Logan 9:13  Yeah, possible. prfit.biz/mini is where you're gonna go. It's for Pilates instructors or studio owners who work for themselves or want to work for themselves.Brad Crowell 9:21  Yeah, that's profit without the O dot biz slash mini, prfit.biz/mini.Lesley Logan 9:26  And we are getting ready. Brad has never been to Poland. Brad Crowell 9:30  First time. Lesley Logan 9:31  And we have never been to Brussels. And we'll be with Karen Frischmann. And then we're gonna do a second honeymoon, because why not? And then we're going to be in London. So if you want to see us in Europe, it's the only time in 2026 we're going to be in Europe. xxll.co/poland gets you the Poland information xxll.co/brussels gets you Brussels information, and xxll.co/pot will take you to the London information and. Brad Crowell 10:00  Yeah, come hang out. It'd be so fun to meet in person. Lesley Logan 10:02  Oh my gosh. It'd be so fun. And as of right now, our 2027 calendar does not have anything in it, and it may stay that way. We don't know yet. I don't know. So if you want to see us in Europe, this is it.Brad Crowell 10:16  Sounds good to me. I was gonna say maybe Greece, but we're not sure.Lesley Logan 10:19  We're waiting. We're still at the moment of this recording, which is November of 2025 we think we have an invitation to Greece, and we're just waiting for the dates.Brad Crowell 10:30  We shall see. Anyway, in May, for all of those who aren't in Europe, join us virtually, we're going to do another spring training event with onlinepilatesclasses.com. If you were with us last year, two years ago, we did a summer, summer camp. Last year, we did a spring training we loved the spring training vibes, so we're doing that one again. We're going to do that event again, but the topic is going to be totally different. We're going to do how to get overhead. So it's going to include all of those kinds of exercises where you're upside down and, you know, breaking it down for you, making it feel a little more accessible and safe and all those kinds of things. To get on the wait list for that and get the more information as it as we start releasing it, go to opc.me/events, opc.me/events, and you'll be able to stay in the loop. Oh yeah. Brad Crowell 11:18  So today, we had a question, except we're going to change up our question. Normally, we, we get, we get tons and tons of questions. If they're a business question, we usually answer them in our coaching group, Agency. It's from Profitable Pilates, our coaching group, and but this time, what we thought we would do is just ask a few of the questions so you can kind of see if any of these are resonating with you, and see you know, like, how do we tackle, like, how is it that we support the studio owners and teachers that are inside of Agency? So for, for example, we have, we have a recent one that just got submitted. It said, hey, how much notice should I give that client give my clients about my rate increase?Lesley Logan 12:02  No more than 30 days. You can go as low as three days, but no more than 30 days. I've had Mini people do two weeks. It really kind of depends on, you know, if you're doing a $2 rate increase, you can do that next week. You know, it's not a big deal. Doing a $25 rate increase per session. You might want to give them 30 days notice. But we actually also have a course that tells you exactly how to raise those rates and how to actually how to give the people the notice you're going to give so you don't get you're going to have people who have no filter, and they don't realize what they're saying out loud to you can feel personal. It's not, but yeah, but yeah, that's what I would say.Brad Crowell 12:38  I mean. We've got a lot of different tools to support specifically, like, how much should you be raising rates and why? Why are we doing it this way, instead of it just being a random number out there. So if you're ever wondering, like, am I charging enough? That's why people join Agency, we get to dig into these questions with you. Kind of break down some numbers, think about it, logically, all that kind of stuff. Another question for you is, I'm thinking of changing my currently, I sell packages. I'm thinking to change to an auto renew subscription. So instead of selling a 10 pack, you get 10 classes a month or something. I'm assuming that's what it is. Lesley Logan 13:15  Yeah. I don't mind if it's a limited Okay. Brad Crowell 13:17  Yeah but how do I do this without being too wordy? How do I communicate the change to my clients?Lesley Logan 13:21  You're gonna have to have a contract. First and foremost, you, this is a auto renew, and the FCC, I believe, put some stuff in place recently. Look, it could have changed. Brad Crowell 13:32  They took it away. Lesley Logan 13:33  They might have taken it away. Brad Crowell 13:34  Click to click to cancel, or it's already it's already trashed. Yeah, they did. Lesley Logan 13:38  Fuck those people. Anyways, okay, so guess what? No one's fucking regulating. You can do what you want, but reviews still stand. And so if you would like to what I always believe is go back to your values. We have a course on your values. But I have, I have, if this was an office hours call, I could ask a couple of follow up questions about the person, because I have some reasons for not doing an auto renew. Meaning, if you are a solo teacher, I'm going to say no auto renew for you. What happens if you get sick? What about your vacations? There are ways to set packages up so they almost feel like an auto renew, but you actually don't owe people anything if you get sick or if you go on vacation, if you do an auto renew, you actually owe them whatever the contract states.Brad Crowell 14:16  Right, because, what if you're out of town for two weeks and they're like, well, I didn't get my 10 classes, what do we do then?Lesley Logan 14:21  And then they were out they were out of town the other two weeks. And then you also have to figure out with your scheduling tool, can it handle this? Can it handle this feature you want to change it to? If it does handle it, how easily is it to stop it and start it? Some people want to have 90-day contracts on these auto renews and then a 30-day notice. These are all things you have to talk about with a lawyer, but we can actually talk about that together in Agency, our office hours or coaching call to really make sure what's going to work best for you. And then, and then, if you are a studio with multiple teachers, what are the breaks you want to have? And then, why are you doing this? So the other question like, how do you communicate it? It kind of depends on what your values are and what the benefit are that you're trying to say, for example, if you're trying to say that our auto renew is great ease and consistency, plus our number one priority, which is community, then you would actually make it really easy for people to be on auto renew and really hard to be on a package, right? Because packages are more convenient for the person who owns a package, because they can decide when and if they want to use it and auto renew, they have to use it. And then what you need to understand about auto renews is it's another way of saying membership and once you have memberships, you have churn, and you will actually, you might be surprised how much churn you have with auto renews versus people with packages. Because I don't love to be on auto renews with places, because I travel so much, so I might not choose a place that forced me on auto renew or charges me more to be on a package. Now I might not be your client, so it doesn't matter. I don't want to scare you, but these are the things you have to think about. And where, in Agency, we actually coach you on it, because we don't do templates. What works for Brad's studio for auto renews is not going to work for Katie's or Georgia's, right? Like, we have to actually look at like, how many people are on the team? What is the goal of the studio? What are you what are the services under that? Because don't, don't get me started when I see I have to have a membership for mat and I have to have membership for a reformer, and I get mad about that.Brad Crowell 16:18  Now, that's too many options. People don't know what to do. Lesley Logan 16:20  And then they have to think about it. Brad Crowell 16:21  Well then, they just do nothing.Lesley Logan 16:22  Yeah, and so you just have to know, like, yes, it looks like that's how businesses are making money right now with all these auto renews. I'm telling you right now that bubble is popping. We are watching class-based studios lose clients who are middle class a lot faster than you think. And so there's reasons to explore what the options are. What's your purpose for running this change? Like, what? How is this easier for you? Do you think it's to have predictable income? What's in it for them? And then that's how we sell it to them? We have to sell it to them on how it's in it for them, they don't give a fuck about what's in it for you. I mean, they don't not give a fuck but they don't.Brad Crowell 16:57  You're right, like, really, that's not their concern, and it shouldn't be, right? No, so well anyway. So this is the kind of conversations that we get to have over at, in Agency, our fitness business coaching. So whether you're doing yoga or pilates or, I mean, we've had people in there who are we've had a chiropractor in there. We've had a doula in there. We've had bar boxing, whatever. So obviously the majority of our audience is Pilates. So that's primarily what we're discussing over there. But in the service-based industry, we we love doing this. We've been doing it for eight years now. So yeah, if you're interested in more information about that, just reach out to us or go to profitablepilates.com, and you can find out about the coaching over there, but. Lesley Logan 17:37  Join Mini. Do the Mini thing. Brad Crowell 17:38  Oh, join Agency Mini, yeah, go to prfit.biz/mini prfit.biz/mini.Lesley Logan 17:45  If you can sign up right now, it's $25 if it's on early bird, it's $65 if it's not, oh my God, for three days of coaching, change your life. Brad Crowell 17:52  Yeah. 100%. I love it. Well, thanks for joining us down that. If you have a question for the pod or question for Lesley or me, just text us, 310-905-5534, or submit a question at beitpod.com/questions and you can leave us both a win where we'll we'll probably weave that into our Fuck Yeah Friday episodes or you can submit a question, which we can do on our Thursdays. So stick around. We'll be right back. We're gonna dig into this amazing convo that Lesley had with Gregg Lunceford. Brad Crowell 18:21  Okay, let's talk about Gregg Lunceford. Gregg Lunceford spent more than three decades in financial services as a wealth advisor at Mesirow in Chicago. I'm sure I'm saying that wrong. He said it twice, and I was I wasn't sure. But anyway, alongside his advisory work, he's an academic researcher whose PhD studies at Case Western Reserve University, focused on the social, emotional and financial realities of today's retirement transition. And this was so interesting to me, y'all.Lesley Logan 18:50  Fascinating, fascinating. So.Brad Crowell 18:53  His curiosity about why even high, highly successful professionals hesitate to retire led him to explore how identity, purpose and well being shape this stage of our lives. And he's like part historian too, right? So he's also the author of Exit From Work, and he writes about his journey and insights into retirement. So, but I, I really enjoyed him breaking down just the different stages of our lives. And also, like, he's comparing generations. Lesley Logan 19:24  Oh, yeah. Brad Crowell 19:25  And like, how they got to where they are, and like, retirement package stuff that is not even an option for us. Lesley Logan 19:32  Let's just talk about, like, let's get more specific what the episode is about, just in case I haven't heard it. So we were talking about retirement attitude, in a sense, like in that, you know, the way my grandparents retired. I to this day, I'm shocked they retired. I didn't know they had money to retire. They didn't look like they saved anything, but like they're, you know, one, one side saved everything. It came out of the Depression. The other side could have been their children. So very different life. They're very young, and so they, like I, I have one set of grandparents who were retired when I was born, and I had another set of grandparents that worked the whole for a while when I was alive, right? And then they all had a pension, and then they just and then they just retired and got paid to be not working, right?Brad Crowell 20:18  What I think, what I think is amazing is Gregg's analysis, and I'm sure this is well documented now, but, but his analysis of life expectancy shot everything in the foot. Lesley Logan 20:30  Right. Brad Crowell 20:30  He said our grandparents' generation, and to some extent, maybe our parents' generation, the pension game, the reality is that people weren't living to be 70, 80, 90 years old. They were only living 60, 70, years and so if you're working until you're 55 and then they have to pay you out for a decade more before you're done, then. Lesley Logan 20:55  It's not that much money. Brad Crowell 20:55  Wasn't that big of a deal but when you're living till you're 80, all of a sudden the companies were like, this is a massive burden for us. We can't, we can't do this. And so then what? The retirement age got older, the pension packages started getting slimmer, all that kind of stuff. So like, when we look at our grandparents and they had just like, you said, how was it possible that they could even retire? It didn't make any sense.Lesley Logan 21:17  They always they had actually had money to give when they died. I was like, what? They had, they had money? So, so the thing that was really fun with Gregg is that, like he, you know, we got into this more deeply in the episode. It's worth listening to. But like during the 2008 recession, companies were trying to just fire everybody. And so they were trying to go, here's the money. All I do is take this amazing package, and people weren't doing it, and it's because it was emotional, like it wasn't just knowing the number, which is like, what the ads would say. It was like, who am I if I'm not doing this? And like, you know some, I worry about, like, like, your parents have worked, your dad's worked for a company for 40 something years. Brad Crowell 22:02  41 or 42 years, yeah. Lesley Logan 22:04  Well, you're 43. So, so and so he's gonna retire, right? And it's like, does he know what to do? Does he know what he's gonna do? Brad Crowell 22:13  It's so funny because, and also, he probably could have retired. No, no, he they could have, I think financially, they could have retired a while back. But again, I think you're right on the money. It's not, it's actually an identity, right. It's a it's the way that you see. It's how you define who you are.Lesley Logan 22:32  Well, and he's so, so, so Gregg, our genius that we interviewed, he said, you we now have a 20 year life bonus, where you get to define who and what you want to be, because you have your first 20 years getting 20-ish years getting educated. Then you have 20 something, well, Andrew advocates 40 something years that you're working, but then you probably have another 20 plus years to be anything you want. Brad Crowell 22:58  Yeah, because he was talking about the bucket list where people are, like, I'm old and decrepit, but I want to go see Niagara Falls, right? And basically, now today, because the quality of life is so much better, you're still active and able to do life normally, you know, well into your 70s and maybe even 80s, until you're willing to slow down so at that point. But like, so, so then your bucket list is a bit different, because, like, okay, you can probably travel, travel, travel, travel for five or 10 years. I mean, my grandparents did this. They bought a they bought an RV, yeah, and for a decade, they drove around the United States, for a decade, but they eventually got bored of it, and then they came home and they still lived for another 20 years, you know? So it's like, okay, so the bucket list thing, if that, if, if people aren't looking at the end of life as like, I gotta finally have a good time. Now, what Gregg is saying is, like, you could flip this on its head entirely.Lesley Logan 23:55  Yeah. Well, he, he emphasized that today's retirees have more personal freedom than previous generations. And you're probably like, Lesley, why are we talking about retiring? We're still going to be it until we see it. Because be it till you see it changes. It changes all the time. And also, if you are not considering what you want to do on the other side of whatever it is you're doing, I don't care how much you love it. I fucking love what I do, and I dream of exiting stage left all the time. And it's not because.Brad Crowell 24:19  She, this is what I hear around our house. I can't wait to be the person that people go who is she again and and she's like, something to do with Pilates, I don't know.Lesley Logan 24:31  Yeah, like, so there's a line in Notting Hill where Julia Roberts' character says, like, she, she says it in like, not a, not the nicest way about herself, but like, people are gonna look at her, like, as this person who was once famous for a while. And I see it as, like, a complete amazing thing where it's just like, someday it'll be like that, oh, that's that person who she was kind of known in her industry for a little bit, and it's like, yeah, she's not like, I like, I was once famous for a little bit in a small part of the world, and now I can move like, because why not? It doesn't mean I don't love what I do. And by the way, like, please don't freak out. No one freak out. Your memberships are fine. I'm not going anywhere. You got to tell people this, Brad, you got to make sure they know. We are currently creating two other things right now so no one I'm not going anywhere, but I do constantly think about I want to be able to retire when I have my faculties, to travel the world, to go to Antarctica, to do different things, I don't want to be in my 70s going, okay, now I'm hanging my hat up. No, I want to know who you and I are on the other side of working together like I there's these other things. And so I wanted to have Gregg on because when he told me what he did, I was like, fuck yeah. It doesn't matter how old you are listening to this, you can take some time to think about what is the freedom I want to have in this extra bonus of life I get. Your grandparents didn't get it. None of mine did. They all died young so. Brad Crowell 25:58  Yeah, the the I think it's, I think it's, I think it's just really interesting to look at the the shift of things, right? There's so many factors that that made the Baby Boomer, Boomer generation, like, pretty epic.Lesley Logan 26:12  Man, they don't know how good a ride they had. Brad Crowell 26:14  Yeah, and the wealth that they were able to build without, like, realizing it, and all that stuff has, that whole flow has shifted completely, you know, and so it's interesting, though, because life expectancy is longer, and I just, I just love that. So I think that really shifts into what I what I loved about he was talking about, he said something that I found intriguing. He was talking about football players, and he was talking about people who have high performance people, or make a shitload of money, and then they retire, and they, he said, they burn through a lot of money trying to figure out who they are.Lesley Logan 26:54  Yeah, this blew my mind too, because it's like, oh, hold on you. You have the money, but you don't know what you're gonna do with it yet.Brad Crowell 27:01  Well, or it's not. Lesley Logan 27:03  Or who you are with it. Brad Crowell 27:04  That's what I was gonna say. It's not even, it's not even what they're gonna do with it yet. It's they're trying to find themselves because they've been defining themselves.Lesley Logan 27:12  They weren't listening to this podcast. Every single person tells people to get to know who they are. Brad Crowell 27:16  Yeah, but they've been defining themselves by their job for 40 years. So then what happens when you're no longer able to define yourself? I know what this is like, because when I moved to Los Angeles, I was there to do music, and after two years, only two years of being there, so I'm like, 25 right? I am die hard into this band. We are doing everything and anything we can to make this band go and then the singer of the band is like, I'm going to grad school. And he quit. And he was like, my partner in this band. And I was like, what the hell man? Like, why did I come all the way out to Los Angeles to do this. What, to do what? What am I gonna do?Lesley Logan 27:55  Because you're gonna meet me. But that's okay. You didn't know that yet. Brad Crowell 27:58  No, I did not know that yet. It was down the road. So, so I was really I was depressed, I was angry, I was confused. I didn't really know how to I didn't know what I was going to go do. I still knew I wanted to do music, but I but what ended up happening was I really got into motorcycles, like really got into motorcycles, and that became kind of how I defined myself. It was how I I changed the way I dressed. I literally rode a motorcycle every day. I joined a motorcycle club. I would ride all over Southern California, you know. And so suddenly that became my identity. And it wasn't until I was networking and met some more people in music that I began to shift back into the music kind of things. But like, yeah, for sure, I can understand how people would be like, well, I used to be blah, blah, blah, whatever, and now I'm no longer so what am I?Lesley Logan 28:46  It's so easy to blow through money to figure out who you are. There's people who join Pilates training programs at 60 because they're like, oh, I think I want to do this, but it's like, eight grand, right? Well, what if you don't? Then people feel like, oh, I just wasted all that money. And then they do something they don't want to do with it, or, or they just keep trying out different things. And like, now they've got this now. They bought a kayak, then they bought the ski doo, and then they bought the boat, and they're trying to be retired first. And so, yeah, I think so, I think it's really easy because they don't know who they are. And that's Gregg's whole thing. They you have to know who you want to be.Brad Crowell 29:19  Yeah, he said many people who spent life meeting obligations are now suddenly confronted with, who do I actually want to be? Right? Who do I actually want to be? And he said, if you go into that blindly, you start chasing quick hits to replace the accolades of a job. You know, the team mentality, the psychological part of success, when you achieve a goal, you know, and basically it can feel very scattered. And he said, so what we should be doing is preparing what he calls a retirement identity. A retirement identity. And he said, instead of trying to figure it out when you get there, what if you started processing that now? And I thought, man, that's really interesting, because that's always been a question for me. You know, like, I asked your dad one time, what's it like to be retired? And he goes, I don't know. man, I've been retired since my 50s.Lesley Logan 30:16  Yeah. He's been retired for a long time. So, like, we're gonna live in Mexico and become tequila smallies. I've already figured this out. Brad Crowell 30:22  I love it. I love everything about that. I think that's brilliant, but, but also, he said there was other he said there was other options too. What did he call it the barista? Oh, no, no, that was the last week barista retired, where she was talking about, you know, getting a part time job. She called it barista retired. I think? Lesley Logan 30:41  Oh, I think so, but I. Brad Crowell 30:43  You know, like, and that's what your dad's doing now. And why is he doing that now? Because he doesn't want to sit around and watch a television all day. He wants to get up and be active. Lesley Logan 30:50  Yeah, there's, there's great. There's, he's a, he's a, he's a crossing guard now, he fucking loves that.Brad Crowell 30:57  Gregg was talking about, like he works with these clients who are looking towards retirement, and he helps them sculpt these packages, which are really clever, right? Because it shifts your focus of purpose in the job. If your job has been to manage a team of 50 people, now you might be training your replacement person for a year or two before you shift into part time. And you just do it, because you can do it from wherever you need to be and whatever. You know, lots of options.Lesley Logan 31:24  I am obsessed I'm obsessed with this whole thing because, like, everyone wants to know, like, how much money do you need to live off of? Like, that we even our lovely wealth people were like, how much money do you want to live off of when you retire? And we were like, we don't want to worry about money. That was our answer. Because I want to live in an Airstream sipping tequila. And, you know, coming back home here when the weather is good, and then, I don't know, we have a house in Cambodia, there's a I want to see the world. So we had that, but we no one was like, what is your retirement persona? Brad Crowell 31:54  Yeah, how do you, how do you imagine spending your time participating in the world, you know, as a retired person? Lesley Logan 32:02  I mean exactly. Brad Crowell 32:03  Is your goal to watch every movie in the last blockbuster? Maybe you shouldn't do that.Lesley Logan 32:09  We might have to talk about having different lives. Visit you. Brad Crowell 32:17  Actually, it's funny that you say that. He said, a lot of couples don't talk about this, and they see, I, you know, they see themselves retiring in different ways. It's not something that they've actually discussed. Interesting.Lesley Logan 32:28  Well, and you know what? Maybe I have to if there's an expert listening who does graduated marriages, I would love to have you on because that's what they're called. They're called graduated marriages, where you love the person you're married to. You don't want to cheat on them. You don't want to be married to someone else, but you would like to have some people just do a separate room. Some people have a separate house, like they live in a different place because they want to live over there. Clearly, that doesn't work for us, because I would get lost, but. Brad Crowell 32:57  Fascinating. Lesley Logan 32:58  It's fascinating, you know, like, I mean, you know, there's this one podcast I listened to, and she is been working. She still has her company. She's working. She works like a dog. She's got a really successful podcast, and she wants to travel with that podcast, and her current successful company is something that she can travel with, and her husband can't, and she's like, I love you, and you can visit me. I want to live for this many months in this state. I've never lived there. I want to live there. I want to feel what it's like. And so she got an apartment, and he is visiting her every other weekend. That's cool. And, you know what, maybe it spices things up. I'm not saying that, but that's the thing. But like, I do think that if you're in a relationship and you haven't thought about retirement together, may this be your assignment, you should contact Gregg and or.Brad Crowell 33:42  Or have a conversation with your partner. Lesley Logan 33:43  And if you're solo, yeah, yeah. And if you're solo, then if you haven't thought about this, you should, because otherwise you're just focusing on dollars. And that's where I think people get obsessed about what the stock market is doing, because you're not actually thinking of how it affects the person you want to be. And you get a little weird about it. And we have an episode with Wealth with Tess coming back on when it comes to, like, the stock and our numbers and all that stuff, and this uncertain time. But I just think that this is a way cooler.Brad Crowell 34:08  You're totally, you're totally right, because it does just become about like this, like, mad, mad. Like, focus on stashing cash, kind of the markets or whatever.Lesley Logan 34:18  Well, and there's much fear around that. And then it's like, but then who are you right? Like, I'm just obsessed. Brad Crowell 34:22  Exactly that doesn't actually address anything that Gregg is talking about here with your retirement identity. Lesley Logan 34:28  I can tell you right now.Brad Crowell 34:29  Your retirement identity is not a bank account number.Lesley Logan 34:31  He is the only person talking about this. I haven't heard anyone else talk about this. I haven't had anyone else to talk about this. And I am like, this is the stand still, like, number one retirement episode we'll ever have like I'm saying here today.Brad Crowell 34:43  Yeah, it's great. It's awesome. Well, love it. Stick around. We'll be right back. We're gonna dig into some Be It Action Items that we got from Gregg Lunceford. Brad Crowell 34:55  All right, so finally, welcome back. Let's talk about those Be It Action Items. What bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your conversation with Mr. Gregg Lunceford. Lesley Logan 35:07  You go first. Brad Crowell 35:10  All right. He said in the planning process of your ideal self, this retirement identity that we've been talking about, he said, what you also have to learn how to do is to replace kinship with friendships, kinship with friendships, which I think is kind of cool. He said today we don't have kinship the way we once did, because families are smaller and they are spread out, right? And also we're not necessarily going into the office to have. Lesley Logan 35:39  Oh, we talked about the Golden Girls. Brad Crowell 35:40  Yeah, you did. Lesley Logan 35:41  Okay,so. Brad Crowell 35:42  Talked about the Golden Girls.Lesley Logan 35:42  Yeah, Sue, just so, you know, Brad, we're on a compound already with Steven Sue and I and a few other people. We're taking applications.Brad Crowell 35:49  We're taking applications. Yeah. So what's really funny, though, is he brought up the Golden Girls and we've talked about this for like, years.Lesley Logan 35:58  Yeah, and I was, like, a wealth manager co signed the idea, I'm in.Brad Crowell 36:04  So he said retirees, retirees must create for themselves on their own, a living setup that supports financial stability and mental well being, and that's where the Golden Girls concept comes in. So it has to include intentional socialization and finding things that create psychological success. So here's an example. He said. It's called an ABRC. It's an academically based retirement community. Or there's another one called a URC, which is a university based retirement community. And basically what he's saying is, if you worked in a field for a really long time, and you connect with other people who worked in the same or similar field, you will have a lot of things to talk about that are the same. Then you'll be able to have those conversations. So that's where the academically based retirement community comes in. Versus a university based retirement community would probably be like, Hey, we're all from the same alma mater, Alma Mater. I may be a year or two before you or after you, whatever.Lesley Logan 36:59  So here's my criteria for ours. Ours is going to be people. Everyone has to who, after Sue Steven, you and I. Everyone has to tell us what young person in their life who is strong on Strapping, who can help move heavy things, because you and Steven aren't going to like, stop doing projects. So we're gonna need help there. And then we just need, we need people who have children to, you know, to help take care of it, because we don't have any. We're not bringing that to this. We're bringing the project management to the community. But we don't have, we're facilitating. We don't have the young person, right? So, so, so sue and Steven have a three nieces on their side. So that's good.Brad Crowell 37:40  Okay, okay, okay. So we, I think we have a couple on our side too.Lesley Logan 37:44  We have, we are, I am the favorite aunt to our only niece, so there's that. But you know what? She might we need extra, just in case. We need to have extras. You gotta have, like, it's like having retirement. You gotta have backup. Brad Crowell 37:57  I remember my grandfather, who recently passed away. He was 94 I think, when he passed away, he moved out of his house at like, 88 or 87 years old into a retirement community. And he did it in, like a snap whim moment, because one of his longest friends for 50 years was like, hey, I just got an apartment at this place down the road. You should come, you should join us there. And he was like, absolutely, hell yeah, literally, called our whole family was like, I'm moving. And everyone's like, what? You're 87 what are you talking about? Lesley Logan 38:34  No, we're gonna find a mid century motel.Brad Crowell 38:36  But the, well, the goal for him here was community. Right? Where he went had, it was a it was like one of those communities that had live on your own, but they're still around, get partial help, and then eventually get full help. So it had three different facilities in one place. And so he moved into that I can do everything by myself, part of the community, and would walk down the hall and go play pool every night with the guys you know. And he did this for many, many years. And the belonging, that communal element that changed the game for him, because he was sitting alone in a house before, and he was like, this sucks. I gotta, I gotta get out of here.Lesley Logan 39:12  Well, I like our compound idea. It's a little culty, but not too much. And I only want the people that we want to be around on this. Like, I like what your grandfather did for himself, it's eally great. But there's also, like, a bunch of people involved that I didn't like, you don't get to choose them. So this is. Brad Crowell 39:30  But he found, like, love late in life too. You know, so there's that.Lesley Logan 39:33  He lived his best life. It's fine. I'm saying it's not ours. And that leads into my Be It Action Item that I'm talking about, which is, like, it's critical that this is a shared vision, yeah, so you gotta create a vision, the shared vision. I understand that I'm telling Brad about this vision a lot. Don't worry. I know what he likes.Brad Crowell 39:49  No, I'm very on board. I love me some tequila. So sign me up. Lesley Logan 39:53  I just think we have our great friends. We have a bunch of DINCs in our life off, but we get all the DINCs together, dual income, no children, all the DINCs together, we can have a cool kick ass compound with, first of all, just the just the red light therapy alone, we're like, already golden, so I'm just so in on this. But okay, so back to what Gregg said to do. Gregg said, create a vision. It's critical that it becomes a shared vision. And he actually said that research shows approximately 40% of couples do not even discuss retirement savings, which is bad, like whole no wonder so many divorces happen. People just don't talk about shit. Like, what is happening? Gonna start talking about your goals. Engage a professional like Gregg, to help you see how you can align your financial wherewithal with those visions. Probably Gregg, because he's the only person who studied this. He's the only, everyone else just wants to know what your fucking number is. He cares about what you want to do. And then, he said you have he wants you to think differently. He wants you to think about being your best self at this stage, not being someone whose society just says it's just time for you to leave. He wants you to, like, really think about who your best self is and take ownership of that, because you're kind of a badass, like people don't realize, like you have so much knowledge that is acquired from the time that you've spent so own that. And he said, in his words, you have more value to offer a lot of people than you think. And I think that that's true. There's like, so many different ways you can prepare, like you can be a big brother or a friend or a, you know, a leader of some kind in some capacity, with all this knowledge you have, you could, you can, you can, you can support people around you who need it. So there's just so much more live 20 bonus years. Plus, you know the way things are going, we'll see how we'll see how this ages by February, considering they're trying to get rid of nursing degrees and stuff like that in July. So we'll see. But I'm just saying there's a lot you can do. And I just really want people, I want people to have all the information. I don't. I don't like that some people have to work until they're 80, or because they either because they need the money or because they don't know what to do other than that, like that makes me sad, both of those. So hopefully this helps you. I'm Lesley Logan. Lesley Logan 41:57  And I'm Brad Crowell. Lesley Logan 41:58  Thanks so much for listening. How are you going to retire? We want to retire? We want to know what that vision What's your retirement persona? Tell Gregg. Tell the Be It Pod, and until next time, Be It Till You See It. Brad Crowell 42:07  Bye for now. Lesley Logan 42:08  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 42:51  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 42:56  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 43:00  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 43:07  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 43:11  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Gregg Lunceford, Managing Director at Mesirow Wealth Management and a retirement transition researcher, joins Lesley Logan to explore why retirement is about more than financial planning. He introduces the concept of the “third age”—a longer, undefined stage of life where identity, purpose, and structure matter just as much as money. Together, they discuss why work identity is so hard to release and how shaping your retirement identity early can make your next chapter feel intentional instead of uncertain. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:Why modern retirees now face a long “third age” requiring purpose beyond leisure.How work identity provides recognition, social connection, and daily structure.The difference between living as your “ought self” versus your “ideal self.”Why failing to plan identity often leads retirees to burn through money.Why creating a shared retirement vision helps guide future decisions together.Episode References/Links:Mesirow Wealth Management - https://www.mesirow.comGregg Lunceford on LinkedIn - https://beitpod.com/greggluncefordExit From Work by Gregg Lunceford - https://a.co/d/c84euxXThe Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel - https://a.co/d/feJq9lhGuest Bio:Gregg Lunceford has 32 years of experience in financial services. He is a Managing Director, Wealth Advisor in Mesirow Wealth Management and Vice Chair of the Mesirow DEI Council. He creates comprehensive financial planning strategies for individuals, families, organizations, athletes and business owners. He is the Investment Committee Chair for the American Heart Association, on the Board of Directors for the Juvenile Protective Association, an Advisory Board Member for the Nathan Manilow Sculpture Park at Governors State University and is an Advisory Board Member for the Quinlan School of Business at Loyola University. Gregg is also a frequent speaker on WGN radio’s “Your Money Matters.” Gregg earned a B.A. from Loyola University, an MBA from Washington University, and a PhD from Case Western Reserve University where he conducted research on retirement. He is a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER® professional and holds a Certificate in Financial Planning Studies from Northwestern University. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! 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And once you start to figure out, I need to form a retirement identity and understand my ideal self. You start to self motivate and become excited about it.Lesley Logan 0:27  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. Lesley Logan 1:10  Okay, Be It babe. This conversation is really cool. It's really, really cool. It might you I'm going to introduce it in just a second, I'm going to introduce the guest, and it might be somebody like when you think about this, you yes, you do. Yes, you do. And I actually am really excited once I hit in on this, because Brad and I have already talked about this topic with each other, but I we've actually not dove into what retirement looks like, right? Like? What does it look like? Who are we, you know. And I think especially if you're an elder like me, you're like, I'm still trying to figure that out for my work stuff, but, but there's, there's an even bigger reason for us to think about it now, and Gregg Lunceford is going to explain that to us, and it's going to give you so much inspiration and a joy and excitement and possibility. And I can't think of a better be it till you see it, thing that be working on than what Greg is going to offer us up today. So here he is. Lesley Logan 2:04  All right, Be It babe, I'm really excited, because when I met this guest, I was like, hold on, this is very different. This is a whole different attitude to have about. Fine, we're going to talk money. And I know some of you want to, like, put your head in the sand and ostrich out, but we're gonna talk retirement. We're gonna talk about some really cool things, also just thought processes to have. We have an amazing guest, the first person ever make me think of this in a different way. Gregg Lunceford from Mesirow, is here to rock our world today. So Greg, tell everyone who you are and what you do.Gregg Lunceford 2:34  Hello, Lesley, thank you so much for the opportunity to be on your show. My name is Gregg Lunceford. I am a career professional in financial services. I work for a firm called Mesirow Financial in Chicago. We have locations across the country and some overseas. I am a wealth advisor. In addition to that, I am also an academic researcher, and my field of study is retirement transition. And so what I work with clients on is getting them, not only do you understand the financial part of retirement, but also the social, emotional components of making the transition and how it is unique to them, because the 21st Century retiree retirement transition is much different and way more dynamic than most people think, having watched others do it in the 20th century.Lesley Logan 3:21  This is so cool, because you're not, like, our, you know, our grandfather or father is like, like, financial planner, you are actually thinking, like, deep about the person. And that I find, I don't think I've known anyone who does that. Like, usually it's like, here are the numbers, here's your sheet. Let's put this in. How much money do you want to have and like, that's it, but you you've brought more personality to it and also more emotions to it. How did you get started in that? Gregg Lunceford 3:47  So I'll give you a little bit of a backstory. So as I mentioned, I've been in financial services for 33 years, and when the real estate bust occurred in 2008 I was working for another organization, and we were having people come in and very successful people, and they were set for life. They were being offered an exit package from their from their employer. They were leaving a lot of C suite roles, or maybe a little role below the C suite. And we were having meetings with them to prepare for retirement, and we would go through all the financial numbers and something still wasn't right. And what I was noticing was they were hesitant to make the retirement decision, even though the company was saying, look, we, giving you this excellent opportunity to exit early create cost savings for us. It'll create great financial opportunity for you, especially because we were in this period of time like unemployment was going above 11%, and so here's the opportunity to take this nest egg and be good, which was counter to what we were taught in our industry when I came in the industry that, you know exiting out was an economic choice, that once you hit a certain number, then you would go look for activit ies of leisure, because work can be depressing and daunting and stressful and all those kinds of things. And even when I was watching, you know, commercial ads from people in the industry and competitors, you know, you'll see something that goes, and I won't call the company, but they had a very successful campaign that said what's your retirement number? Yes. And this number will follow you down the street. Is this? You know, you walk from the door, do you remember that? And you look at your balance, it's like, if today's the day you just tell your boss, I can't stand you, and it's over with, right? And so this was very counter to what I was experiencing. And so I started to talk to some of the senior level people in my organization. I said, there's something going on here and and they said, well, it's probably because they're talking to us, and they're also shopping with other people to see who they which which company they want to work with. So go offer them a great discount, because it's probably all things equal, and it's just they're being sensitive about numbers, once again, making this an economic choice, so we would do that. And what I recognize is the sales cycle got even longer. And so I would go back to them. But I said, have you been looking at the trends for our sales cycle? And you would think that these would be quick, easy, easy sales, you know, because people supposed to be running out of the door, and they took longer. And so I said, there's something we don't understand about someone who is at this stage, and the feedback I got was, if it's something social emotional, there's nothing we can do about it. You know, if someone's afraid about running out of money, you can create an annuity product to take care of them for life. Somebody's worried about interest rates going up, you can create a product that deals with interest rate sensitivity, but nothing can deal with how a person feels. And I didn't accept that as an answer. I thought that was wrong, because the way I view it is, clients hire us, and they trust us, and we can do a better job the more we understand the client beyond just their finances, right? And I felt like there was a big problem here. So I basically said, you know, I want to go back to school and study this. And I negotiated for time to be in class, and I got it. And so I went to Case Western Reserve University. I got into a PhD program there, and I did four years of PhD study and lots of studies trying to figure out what are the social, emotional factors, as well as the financial factors that a person considers when making the retirement decision. And there were just tons of things that I learned in that process that I used to help my clients. Were happy to talk to you about that journey.Lesley Logan 7:37  Yeah, I'm excited to get in with that, because it's really funny as you talk about this, I like, my my family, right? My mom is two years from retirement, and she's got two homes, you know, in California that it, honestly, I was trying to get her to sell few years back because it would have been a great idea. And like, get a condo, be set for life. And we're like, showing her the numbers. We're like, look at this. This is a you, you can set yourself up to just be chill, and she is like, not listening, and I think it's because of the emotional attachment to these properties versus, like, the numbers. And so I can I get that right? Like, I get my my in laws could have retired years ago. I don't think that they know what to do if they don't have work things. And I don't even know that they love their work. I think they like what the what the work represents that they do during their day. So I do want to dive into this, because in being it till you see it like I'm hoping that every listener here gets to live to the age that they desire, like and we all are, as you mentioned, like that, the time that we're in people are living a much longer time, like retired at 65 and dying at 90. It's a long time to not have a J-O-B, right? So it would be really cool to chat with you, because like being it till we see it means including what we want to be. How do we want to be when we're older and not doing the thing we're doing? How do we want to be in retirement? So let's dive into that a little bit.Gregg Lunceford 9:06  Sure, so a couple things I want to cover off on. It was like one, how did we get here? And I think you've already touched on that. The fact is, we're living longer. And so if you are looking at a retirement maybe 50 years ago, when people really started to expire in their late 60s and their 70s. What occurred was you got to 65 and the system told you 65 is the number. Why does this arbitrary number was picked one day when they were trying to figure out Social Security, they said it was 65 is the number, right? And so you come out at that period of time, and you only have just a few healthy years in front of you, or at least you anticipate you only have a few healthy years. So what came out was this concept of a bucket list. So I am going to use these healthy years to travel, play all the golf I can, and have all this leisure that I can before I am too physically unable to do this or mentally unable to do this. And so couple things were wrong there, as it relates to our retirement 21st century. One, we're living longer, so you're going to be physically and mentally able to do something for a long period of time. So if you don't sort of set goals for yourself and see what you can be in the futurem you're going to get bored really, really quickly, and you're going to start to decline very quickly, simply because you're absent of certain things, purpose and drive and and goals and accomplishment. You know, it's more than just a couple rounds of golf that are going to make you happy. And so what I think people don't understand is we are now living in a period of time where it used to be you went from your youth to middle age and to old age. And so this transition from middle age to old age was about that 60 mark, right? And so people just basically said, I have no more control. The system is going to do what it does to me. I'm going to be booted out of my job. I'm going to be sent off to do leisure. I guess that means I play with my grandchildren or volunteer, and I'll just follow suit. And what happened is a lot of people found themselves doing things that weren't rewarding to them. Now we're in a new era, because we live longer. And what is present now is what is called, in academic terms, the Third Age. So you now go from early age to middle age to this Third Age, which is this undefined period, and today's retirees are the first people to go on this, and then you go on the old age, and the Third Age is this 20 year life bonus, where you get to define who and what you want to be. And think about it, you're wiser than you ever been. For most people, you have more financial resources than you ever had. You don't have a commitment to other people, meaning you've raised your children so you don't have to worry about them. Hopefully you're in a position where you don't have to care for aging loved ones, right? So this is a period of time where you can do anything and everything you always wanted to do. And people go, well, what didn't I have the opportunity to do whatever I wanted to do? Not quite, because remember when we were growing up, and those before us were growing up, we were kind of encouraged to do things that were socially acceptable. Rght? Lesley Logan 11:02  I agree. Gregg Lunceford 9:07  It wasn't until recent decades where someone says, I'm going to start a computer company out of my garage. I'm going to drop out of college and do something that's undefined and pioneer so the current generations, entering into into retirement, have never developed this proactive protein behavior the way maybe millennials and Generation Z has.Lesley Logan 12:54  I completely agree. Because, like, I, I mean, I feel very lucky that even though I was raised very much by, like, almost a Boomer and and a hippie like, I do have a career where I am doing whatever I want. I'm an elder millennial, so I have that, but I have friends who are just a few years older than me, and I don't think that they have a they don't have hobbies. If they have a hobby, it's going to the gym. You know what I mean? Like, it's like they don't really have things so outside of their work, it's like, what do you do for fun? Are you kidding? Like there's no and so I feel like what you're getting at is, like, no one has actually spent time thinking like, but what do I actually want? How can I dream about that, right? How can I make that so exciting that that I want to take a retirement package or that I'm excited to I have this I'm not just like, oh, let me go play golf three times a week. Like, what else? I have no purpose. I think it's really fascinating that that there is a good chunk of, like, I would say, probably over 45 who don't really, they're exploring it, but don't know. And how do you figure that out?Gregg Lunceford 13:59  So let me ask you a question. Lesley, what is your earliest memory? Or how about how old do you think you were when someone first asked you what you wanted to be when you grow up?Lesley Logan 14:09  I remember being in elementary school, and I'm sure it was asked of me earlier, because people have told me that I said something different earlier. But I remember in fourth grade, I had to, like, write a poem about who I was and what like, what did it feel like, and what did it sound like, and what did it look like. And I said, a judge, you guys, that should shock everyone.Gregg Lunceford 14:36  My point is so since age 10, someone has been helping you develop your work identity. So people were asking you at home or in your neighborhood or a church or wherever you socialize, what you're going to be then you're going to go to a middle school and you're at the high school and they're going to assign a counselor, going to start telling you to think about college or trade school or whatever it is. Is then you got to get into career. And then whatever career you get in, maybe you're assigned a mentor that's helping you understand or think about how to advance in that career. And then you get to this point where maybe you're like late 40s or 50s. And does anybody help you figure out what your identity will be after work. Lesley Logan 15:22  No, as you're saying this. Gregg Lunceford 15:24  You're on your own. You're on your own. And the only thing that was different here is when they put you into that position where you were felt forced into retirement, right? And then there was also a safety net there in the form of a pension that doesn't exist the way it once did, and there were other government safety nets that may not exist the way they once did before, when they put you there, you just said, okay, I'll accept it, because I'm only going to be around five years anyway. So let me work on this bucket list, but you never really thought about and I think people don't really dig into thinking about what the value of work is, beyond the financial resources it provides. So they get to the tail end of their career, and some people may not even think about it anyway, either. So career, because you've spent all this time having these conversations, you start developing this identity because your work, you become what your work is, right? And so, so a lot of people look at the economic resources it provides, but work also provides for us ways to get psychological success. Who doesn't like completing a task and getting recognition, and if you're in a good working environment, right? Everyone says, Let's applaud Lesley because she did this for the team which created this opportunity for the company, which created this value that she should be recognized for, right? So that that's very important, that gives you a reason to get out of bed, that gives you a reason to thrive, and that has some value when you walk out of the work environment. How do you replace that when you go into this third age? The second thing is, work provides socialization. No matter what you think about your work colleagues, if you like them, that's great. They give you somebody that you want to see every day, that you become personal friends with, that you grow with, that you learn to care about. If you hate them, they give you something to laugh about at the end of the day. You know what that idiot Bob did today again, right? That gives that gives you more than you think, right? And so work provides socialization. And then the third thing that work provides that we often overlook is structure in your day. What to do with your time, right? And so for a lot of people, when they don't have somewhere to go, something to do that makes them feel accomplished, and people to be around that they enjoy or either get some form of comical satisfaction from, they're lost when you put them out there on their own. And so what I learned and through my research is this transition for a lot of people, is the first career transition that they've made independently, and it is scary. Lesley Logan 18:08  Yeah. I mean, when you put all that together and I'm just like, going, wow, you know, people aren't it, one of the questions we've got on the pod is like, how do you make friends as a note when you move to a new place? It's like, I mean, for us, we work for ourselves. So, like, we didn't have a place to go to make, you know, so I, my husband and I have a different experience in, like, how to find socialization and structure to our day. And, you know, like we've had to make it happen. But for so many you know, my dad, he quit his he quit his security job. Yes, guys, my 72 year old father was a security guard, but he quit it because he got frustrated. Anyways, he is back working as a crosswalk guard because he's like, I'm bored. I have nothing to do, and I'm like, but dad, we could get a hobby. We could play these game like, all this stuff. And it's because he never, ever, ever in his whole life, did anyone ever encourage developing the skills outside of work.Gregg Lunceford 19:06  Developing a retirement identity, right, developing a retirement identity. And what also makes it hard is, you know, when you are developing a retirement identity, like I said, this is your first shot at personal freedom in life. Okay, when you're growing up, you had to do what your parents told you to do. Then you became an adult, and then you had all these set of responsibilities. And so you were doing what people told you you ought to do. You were really working on your art self. So if you're going to have a family, you ought to find a job that produces enough income, you know. So you didn't really think about ideally what you wanted to do. And what is really amazing to me is I've interviewed some highly successful people that do amazing things, and when I start talking to them about forming their ideal self, the stuff they come up with is so counter to what what and who they are. It is. Is amazing to me. So I get cancer surgery or successful attorneys or engineers to say I want to learn how to write mystery novels, or I want to start a rock band. And so what it points to me, and what it what comes out to me is these are probably things that they wanted to do in the 10, in their teens, in their early 20s, all along, but they couldn't do that because society told them these are not the things a person ought to do. You know, if they want stability in terms of income, if they want respect in their community, if they want you know, the structure that around it allows them to have a family and not have to worry about things. And so now you get to this third age, and I saw all off the table. You're wiser than you've ever been. You have more financial resources than you've ever had. You know, you have more personal freedom. Now you get to, really, for the first time, work on who your ideal self, not your ought self, who you want to be. And if you get it right, you're the only person you have to hold accountable. If you get it wrong, you're the only person you have to hold accountable. And so some people go, well, Greg, what does it have to do with money? I think people who don't take time to find this identity burn through a lot of money trying to find themselves. Right? And so, when I first started this journey, I was trying to find a cohort of individuals that had finished their career, achieved financial success and had 30 years ahead of them. And what were their behaviors, and where you consistently see this is with professional athletes, right? You're out of the game early. Right? You're in your 30s, and you're Tom Brady, you're 40, but that's the long game. But you're really out in your late 20s, your early 30s, you don't have financial concerns, right? And what is the behavior? And sometimes we demonize athletes for dysfunctional behavior after Hey, but all they're showing us is who we are going to be if we don't develop a retirement identity.Lesley Logan 22:09  Yes, Greg, you are 100% correct there. I think most people, think most people will say they don't know how to manage their money and and to your research and what we've been talking about here, it's not about managing money it's about they don't know who they are without their sport because they spent, for those people, they spent, literally, since they were a child in that sport and getting so many accolades, and then all of a sudden, no one cares. No one pays attention to them. For the most part, they're not going to be on TV like, that's it. And so I think it, I think you're spot on. It's not about the money responsibility, although they might need to learn some. It's about who, who are they now that they're not playing.Gregg Lunceford 22:50  Right and so then you go, well, this athlete just went broke because they put all this money in his business. Well, they're trying to get the same accolades in business they got in sports, right? They're trying to replace that identity that made them feel good, made them feel accomplished and some people are very successful at it. Those aren't. But my point is, there has to be a road map to get that yes, and it doesn't always have to be in business. It could be in your civic activities. It could be you learning to act, or you become in sport, but you have to first of all imagine who your ideal self is. And just like you were coached and you read and you trained to build that ought self, hopefully, for some people, a lot of people, the ought self is their ideal self, and they're usually entrepreneurs like you, where you that you know what, I'm not going to go to normal path. I'm going to carve a path for myself, and entrepreneurship gives me that freedom. But for a lot of people, they have to figure out now that I've satisfied all these obligations to other people and other things, who do I ideally want to be and then work at how do I get there? Because if you go in there blindly, you're just the same as that person out of that was in sports or any other industry, you're just trying to find this quick hit to replace all of these accolades or psychological successes you got. And you can blow up a lot of money doing that. So the well being comes from getting all of these components right, not just as we were taught in the 20th century, just making sure you don't run out of money. Lesley Logan 24:26  Gregg, this is insane. So okay, so I love all of this. And it's, it's, it's like, so aligned, because I'm always like, can't be you're not gonna get right the first time. Like, we have to ditch perfection, which, of course, in workplace, it's very honed. Like, check the box. Do it right. Do it right. So you have to talk to the boss about how you did it wrong. Like, get it right. Like, so of course, when you, when you retire, if you haven't been working on these things, you're you're going to be hard on you're going to take your ought self into your retirement. So I guess, like, first of all, I don't think that most financial retirement planners do any of these questions. So when, if, when people come to you talk retirement, are you like pulling are you like asking them what their ideal, what they want their ideal self to be? Do they even know how to find it? What questions do they have to ask themselves? Gregg Lunceford 25:13  Well, we do have. We have. We have a lot of conversation about, you know, not only can you financially afford it, we can put some numbers of software and come up with that answer pretty quickly, right? But we also have a conversation about, what do you think your lifestyle will be, and why do you think this is right for you? And what do you want to accomplish? And you know, some folks will come in and say, hey, I think I want to start a small business, right? And so we might talk about them, and they don't want they don't want work again in the way they want it, but they want something to do that is work on their own terms. So a lot of this is you changing the terms of what you're doing and because when we go, especially if we go to work for a corporation or some that's usually a unilateral contract, right? The person the institution is telling you, I'll give you X amount of dollars if you do this. And you say, but what if I did a little different? No, you don't get a choice in that. This is what you got to do, right? And what we're recognizing is we do have some power in that. We do have some power. I've seen a lot of people be successful in going back to their places of work and negotiating consulting contracts. And they basically said, you know, I don't want to do nine to five, but if you have a special project that you bring on, let's say you bring you on new software, whatever, and this is going to be a nine-month project, or it's going to be something you need few hours, you know, out of the week and but I get the summers off. I'm your person for doing that. And that's how they're able to get from their ought self into their ideal self, because the time that they're not there, they now start to figure out what their personal freedom, what they really like to do. So I think of one person now, he was very successful at this, but he also was confident enough talking to his employer, because he was the head of HR, so he knew he was a little bit more comfortable. But basically what he did was he got to this point, and he was ready to make this transition now, but he didn't know what he wanted to do. So he went to and he said, look, I'm the head of HR, I got 70 people reporting to me. I'm willing to give all of my direct reports to my successor. If you help me, let me help you identify my successor, and help me groom your successor. So his role became more of coach, manager, mentor, in this last couple of years, and that was three days a week. He said the other day a week. These are institutions, nonprofit institutions, that we, as an organization, support. I want one day to volunteer with one of them, and so now they get a free executive for one day a week. That was great for the company. Worked out well. He said, then the fifth day of the week, I just want a day off. I want to see if I really enjoy leisure. Everyone tells me I'm supposed to play all these rounds of golf and lay back and relax. Let me make sure that that's the right thing for me. So he has three days a week that he is engaging in what he traditionally knows in terms of what his identity is. He has one day a week to see if he wants to change his identity in his community through his volunteerism, and he has one day a week to figure out if I just want to exit all together. And the answer is, you can do one of the three of those. You can continue doing all of the three of those. What we have now is, if you shape them correctly, is we have what are called boundary-less careers. And so this is where I think, you know, we give Millennials a bad rap. We give millennials a bad rap because we always say, well, they like to do a gig economy. They don't stay anywhere 30 years. But what they're really engaging in is today's boundary-less career, where they define success for themselves, versus going down the traditional path, which says you can only be successful by going up the pyramid. For them is, you know what? I can be equally financially successful. I can gig here, gig there, and add it all together, or I can and get this personal freedom and know how to negotiate so that I'm spending more time, just as much time developing my ideal self as I'm developing my ought self.Lesley Logan 29:21  Oh my gosh, Gregg, you just like, I think you're the first person to ever give the millennials a compliment. But thank you. Constantly find myself defending, like, I'm like, what are we talking about? Like, we're not bad, we're we're a group that's how to really fight, like, figure things out. Because when we came into the world where we got a job, like, everything was so uncertain. You know, between 911 and between, that's when I went to college, and then I got out of college, and it was like the recession, like, there's not, there's not been an opportunity to have a certainty of a 30-year career. But I think what you're, what I'm, what I love about what your saying is, like, we've actually been spending our careers figuring out who we are, and like, spending time doing that. And I am obsessed with what the example of the guy you gave, because I think so many people can start playing with that right now. So many companies are looking to go to a four day work week, you know, like, so many places are looking to have like, Okay, you're in office for some days and you're at home for other days. Like, we can look at those opportunities as ways to figure out our retirement identity. Gregg Lunceford 30:22  Right. And a lot of us get stuck in this, oh, well, I work for this large corporation. They aren't flexible. There are a lot of small, medium sized companies that are in growth mode that that model works very well. That's what they can afford. And they need the institutional knowledge and the wisdom you got to be able to and this is where we go back to talking about boundary list careers. You got to think about all of the universe and parts of it you don't even know exist. This is where your personal curiosity has to kick in to get what you want. Lesley Logan 30:53  Yeah. Yeah. Okay, Gregg, so I feel like you are a unicorn though. Like, I really do feel like, because, I mean, obviously, what a cool company, that they're like, yeah, go, take four years to figure out this idea you have, and then, like.Gregg Lunceford 31:09  Well no, they weren't that cool. That's why I'm here. Lesley Logan 31:14  Okay, that's cool. Gregg Lunceford 31:15  I kind of, I took a lot of flack as I was doing this, and because people were going, we don't understand why you're doing thi, right, and you know, we don't really understand your need to do it. And there were a few key executives that said, you know, they were really supportive of me, but overall, it was, you know, I was sort of like I was trailblazing, and people were going, you you have a very good set of responsibilities here, that you could be highly successful. Why do you want to tinker with the mouse trap? And I said, I think this would make me a better advisor to my clients, if I, if I came to understand this now, back then, and, you know, there was no one talking about psychology. I'm a certified financial planner now, the CFP exam as of I think, like two, three years ago, 11% of the exam is psychology now. But I was, I was in a very uncomfortable space, but I believed I was right. So when you start talking about, you know, be it till you see it, right, I'd be, I was in a very uncomfortable space. And this is my book, Exit From Work, I write about it in my book, but I am glad I had the journey, because I feel as though I'm a better professional, and my clients appreciate it.Lesley Logan 32:21  Yeah. I mean, like, you know, years ago, I read the book Psychology of Money, right? I think that's what it's called, or maybe it's called profit, but I think that's money. And, like, I said, like, the type of person you have to be to get money is very different than the type of person you'd be to keep the money. And I was like, like, that's, by the way, that's, like, the thing I remember from the whole book, it's, but at any rate, I remember that sticking going, hold on a second. Like, we as people have to evolve, like, one on the getting, two on the keeping, and that goes kind of along with what you're saying. Like, you know, you have to understand the emotion psychology behind all of this. Because, yes, spreadsheets are great, but with AI, like, we don't need a bunch of people do a spreadsheet anymore. So there's that we need someone to help guide us to like, well, who is it like, where is this money going? What do you want to do with it? What like was also, what if, instead of like, okay, here comes our retirement age, what if it's like, oh my gosh, like, I can't even wait, or, actually, I'm going part time now, and my retirement is part time, and I'm doing all these other things. Like, that's so cool that you, I mean, you do that, it's not easy to be a trailblazer. It's not easy to be the only person talking about it, though. Gregg Lunceford 33:27  Right. It's rewarding in the end, and so, and I think a lot of people find it liberating, because if you got 20 years, you just really want to do what people tell you you ought to do. I mean, especially when you spent the first 60 doing that. And so really, what this third age is supposed to be. It's supposed to be the most dynamic part of your life, right? It is a way to course correct or either enhance something that's already gone well for you, versus a lot of people going to retirement, because that's what retirement was when it first started off, it was really this negotiation between management and labor, where, especially, we were in an industrial society. So labor was more physical, right now we're in a service economy, so it was really more cerebral. But back then, you know, they wanted a management wanted employees who could swing a hammer so many times a minute, and that was usually somebody under age 40, and this is where we start getting age protection laws, right. And anyone over 40 they wanted out of the workforce. So, you know, retirement didn't start off as this, oh, this is this great thing, and they're going to write me checks for the rest of my life. It didn't start off as that. It really started off as you were really making someone feel devalued because you you didn't have any and so we've gone along with this model. It wasn't until maybe, like the 19 late 70s or 1980s when we went into this global recession where people started getting offered these early retirement packages to come out of companies because globally, a lot of people, a lot of companies, had financial issues to deal with. And what they weren't expecting when they let this 55 year old go is that life expectancy was starting to go up, and so now this 55 year old is now living to 80, and they got the best end of the deal. And what is happening financially right now is people are looking at their parents and grandparents who got that deal, and they're going, I can never afford to do what they did, and not realizing that that was an anomaly. And so a lot of people, socially, emotionally, feel like they're failing, and they don't want to talk about retirement because they feel as though I'll never be able to do what the person did before me and therefore there must be something wrong with what I'm doing or what me and the reality is the game is changing, and so you actually have more personal freedom than they have. And just like they walked into a unique situation, you have to craft a unique situation for you that works.Lesley Logan 36:04  Yes, that, Gregg, this is, you're a historian. You're like a life coach and like the person we all need to be thinking about when it comes to like, because it doesn't matter how I mean, obviously we're told, like, the earlier you can start thinking about retirement, the better. But people don't want to do that, like I said the beginning of this. They want to put their head in the sand, like, I can't be my grandparents, so I'm just going to keep doing what I ought to do, and just and like, we'll deal with that later. We'll figure out the number later. But I think if we can, like, start thinking about it now, it really does allow us to curate the experience we have with work, but then also set ourselves up for that third age where we can have a really good time getting to know ourselves even deeper, and not not losing money along the way.Gregg Lunceford 36:51  That's correct, because in that third age, you may convert a hobby. So I have a friend who was in banking with me. He would always go take a week or two off every year and just go to Europe and backpack. He would stay at, you know, two three star hotels. He was like, I'm not there every day. And he would just go take the most amazing pictures he bring them back to the office. And we would go, Jim, you know, you should have an art show. And he was like, Nah, they're just hobbies or whatever. And he had a hard shell, and people started buying his art. And so, you know, now in retirement, you know his joy also produces income. And so he has defined work on his own terms. It doesn't even feel like work to him. And so what a lot of people who are looking at their parents and grandparents and then going, you know, they got this pension for life, and they don't offer pensions anymore, and they didn't get sandwiched. So they didn't have the burden, financial burden of raising kids and having to take care of parents. I'm stuck. I'll never be able to do that. There's something wrong you don't understand. You now have this 20 year life bonus, where you can learn to gig, you can learn to I often point to the show The Golden Girls. I don't know if the creators of the show knew what they were doing or they intentionally did this, but look at that model. I think that's the model a lot of people are going to have to go to. And I think you touched on this a little bit earlier. You start talking about your father and your in laws. And you know, we don't have kinship the way we once did, once small, we have smaller families, right? Two, geographically we disperse, right? And so what in this planning process of your ideal self, what you also have to learn how to do is to replace kinships with friendships. So that's what was going on in that in that Golden Girls house, you had Dorothy and her mother, Sophia, that had a kinship, but where they didn't have kinship, they replaced it with their roommates with Blanche and Betty (inaudible). And so now that you have this replacement of family that you trust and you get along with, now you got four people to split your rent with, so that makes the money go longer, right? Yeah, then you start talking about what went on every day. Well, sometimes they were doing volunteer work, and then they had to spin off where they bought a hotel. So they basically were doing their own version of a gig economy, right? They were engaging as much as they wanted to or not. Then they had socialization from each other. There was always something going on in that house, right? Yes. And so, right? And then they had things to create psychological success. So I don't know if the creators of the show recognized at the time, but to me, I looked at it as sort of foreshadowing what people have to create for themselves on their own with this life bonus, and it will help them both financially, as well as their mental and their mental well being. Lesley Logan 40:00  Gregg, yes. I mean, I joke with my friends who have kids. I'm like, I just want you to know that your kid is gonna have to take care of me because I don't have kids. But really, actually, I just need to find my Golden Girls, my husband. I just need to find a co op, a little commune of all of our friend all of our friends who don't have kids, we actually like what we're being with. And we could have a great little retirement home, maybe make it a BnB. This what I what I just I'm obsessed with, and why I got excited to have you on is, you know, oftentimes the Be It Till You See It podcast really talks about, like, what we can do right now, like, for right now, what we can do to be it till we see it tomorrow, or for the thing we want next year. Or there might be some stuff I have never thought of it as like, what can we be doing right now to be it till we see it for retirement in a way that we can choose, like we get the life is literally what we want, and the research you've done, the education you've had, and how you've literally seen it implemented in unique ways, because of all this work, is so cool. It makes me excited to actually, like, look into that future. Because, like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm not gonna look past 50, because I got things to do with my job, with the job that I created for myself. It's like, oh, hold on a second. What, like, what can I be playing with right now so that I know what I'm gonna do past 50, so that I have something to look forward to. So I'm excited about it. So, Gregg, what are you most excited about right now?Gregg Lunceford 41:20  I'm excited about I'm writing and researching and learning about the person I'm becoming. So and so I often joke with my clients, but I'm really not joking. They'll come back and they'll tell me some amazing experience they had, and I always tell them, leave me a list of notes so I know where to start when it comes to my time, and I say that jokingly, but it's something it is serious. What we all need to start to focus on right now is just like we had that career guidance counselor helping us and coaching us. And to that next thing, we need to start taking time to figure out that action plan for that next thing. And once you start to figure out I need to form a retirement identity and understand my ideal self, you start to self motivate and become excited about it. So what I really enjoy about what I've done through my work, whether it be here as an advisor or through my research, is that I'm helping people understand that they have a lot to be encouraged by, right? You're going to get 20 years to do whatever it is you want to do. And what I also want people to be understanding of. You don't have to leave the workforce if you're doing something awesome already. Just keep doing it. And if you want to modify that in some kind of way, figure out a plan, or figure out your terms and how to negotiate those terms. Say you can do that. Lesley Logan 42:51  Oh, I just like each answer. I just get more excited for people. I'm excited for myself. Like, I'm like, wow, this is so fun. We're gonna take a brief break and then find out where people can find you, follow you, work with you and your Be It Action Items. Lesley Logan 43:00  Okay, Gregg, where can they connect with you? You have a book, Exit From Work, but where, where can they go to chat with you, work with you like, get more ideas about their retirement identity?Gregg Lunceford 43:14  Sure, so I can be reached at mesirow.com so our website, M-E-S-I-R-O-W dot com, on that, if you put in my name in our search engine, Gregg Lunceford, you'll come up with my team web page. We'll have my bio, my contact information, also a list of all my publications. Also, if you're interested in my book, Exit From Work. This can be found on amazon.com, and I'm always encouraged by people who take time to drop me a note, or we didn't even go into I talked about the Golden Girls situation. We didn't even go into their academically based retirement communities. Now, basically, instead of dormitory you lived in when you were in your late teens and 20s, now people are going back to retire near where they went to school. So they now have, because we don't have these kinships, they're now bracing building friendships based on the fact that they're alumni, or they love the school and and so it's sort of like this, you were living in the Golden Girls subdivision, maybe. Lesley Logan 44:15  Oh, my God. Gregg Lunceford 44:15  So there are all kinds of things that are going on right now, and I just, I write about it in my book too. I just want people to learn about that so they don't feel as though they're confined to what they saw their parents do. Lesley Logan 44:27  Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, Brad, when you listen to this, we'll choose your school, because he went to music school, so we'll choose that one.Gregg Lunceford 44:37  He could, he could probably teach all the people I know they want to start a rock band. Lesley Logan 44:41  Yeah, yeah, yeah, him and his buddies. That could be their whole little they would love it. Okay, you've given us a lot, but I do want to dive into the bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people can take to be it till they see it. What do you have for us?Gregg Lunceford 44:56  Okay, so what you first have to do is you have to create a vision. And if you have a partner, it is very important that that be a shared vision. The last thing we want to do is get to the end of our career and then have conflict with our partner. And a lot of that happens because most couples do not talk about retirement. They don't even know if the other partners is saving for retirement. Like 40% couples don't even talk about this. Don't even do the calculation to get past them. So so if you haven't even done the basics on that end, talking about this thing you aspire to be is very difficult because And so last thing you want to do is you both jump in it, and then you you're stuck and you're unhappy. So create a vision. If you have a partner, make sure that's a shared vision. And then start talking about goals. Engage someone like myself, who's a financial planning professional, to help you see how you can align your financial wherewithal with those goals. And then think differently. Think about being your best self at this stage, not being someone who society just said it's time for you to leave, because that's not the case. You have more value to offer a lot of people than you think.Lesley Logan 46:07  I do, I love that. This is an episode I really hope my in-laws actually listen to. I really am. I'm actually just really excited for even our our listeners who who are like, you know, they might be in there. They might be, like, 15, 20 years away from retirement, but, or even 10, but, like, we have a bunch of them, and I hope this helps them rethink that, because I think sometimes there's a fear to, oh, my God, you know. And you just said it like being the system has told them that they're done, but you're not done. And so I just you've given, like, so much excitement around this topic, and joy and possibility. So Gregg, thank you for being you. You all, how are you going to use these tips in your life? We want to know. Make sure you tell Gregg Lunceford your takeaways. I'm sure it will make his day. Share this with friend who needs to hear it, that friend who's like, so worried all the time, like, absolutely needs this. And you know what to do until next time, Be It Till You See It. Lesley Logan 47:01  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 47:44  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 47:49  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 47:54  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 48:01  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 48:04  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Celebrating wins is not about ego—it is about visibility and honoring the work you are doing, even when it feels uncomfortable to say out loud. Lesley Logan shares the powerful and often-overlooked story of Rosalind Franklin, using it as a reminder of what can happen when contributions go unclaimed. From a meaningful community win to a personal birthday mindset shift, this FYF episode encourages you to stop playing small and let yourself be known for the work you’re doing. Because when people can see your work, they can actually be helped by it. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:Rosalind Franklin’s uncredited role in discovering DNA.How her research was used and published without permission.A community win from Ainsley sparked by taking action together.Lesley’s reflection on why talking about your work matters.How a new birthday theme restored excitement around celebrating.Episode References/Links:Submit your wins or questions - https://beitpod.com/questionsHer Wiki - https://www.instagram.com/p/DQOCW0ajNNYThe Art of Gathering by Priya Parker - https://a.co/d/8WYiDU0 If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentCheck out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper’s Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentBe in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlistBe It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-surveyBe a part of Lesley’s Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gLesley Logan website https://lesleylogan.co/Be It Till You See It Podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjogqXLnfyhS5VlU4rdzlnQProfitable Pilates https://profitablepilates.com/about/Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesley.logan/The Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gFacebook https://www.facebook.com/llogan.pilatesLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-logan/The OPC YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@OnlinePilatesClasses Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  It's Fuck Yeah Friday, Brad Crowell 0:01  Fuck yeah. Lesley Logan 0:02  Get ready for some wins. Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. Lesley Logan 0:44  Hi, Be It babe. Happy birthday weekend. Well, it's my birthday weekend. Is it your birthday weekend? I know a lot of Aquarians. Hi. It's actually a Fuck Yeah Friday episode, and that means we celebrate wins that you've sent in, a win of mine. We start to see how wins can exist everywhere, and a little mantra for our weekend. So, first, have to do the inspiration. First have to do inspiration. I am so sorry. It's my own show, and I forgot my own order, also laughing to myself, because I actually went in to do this, and then got distracted with my ADHD, and then then I got distracted, and now I'm here. So welcome. Welcome to a podcast with someone with ADHD. You know, we're just we're just making it work. Lesley Logan 1:26  Okay, so here we go. Here's the inspiration that I found, and I this is really cool. Oh, this is really cool. So excited. This blew my mind, and I'm so excited to share with you. 70 years ago, a woman discovered the structure of DNA, but two Cambridge men stole her work and won the Nobel Prize. She was erased from history and died of cancer. This is a story of the biggest theft in science, and its main character, Rosalind Franklin. So at the King's College in London, a brilliant young scientist made groundbreaking discoveries about DNA structure. Her name was Rosalind Franklin, using advanced X ray crystallography, she captured the clearest images of DNA ever seen inside the famous photo 51 and here's why it was important. And you can get this on her Wiki org. Photo 51 was revolutionary. So there's an image of this like, you know, it looks kind of like a baseball. After 100 hours of X ray exposure had showed clear X patterns that suggest a helical structure. Franklin has already concluded that DNA likely had a regular, repeating structure, but was meticulously gathering more and more data before publishing. On January 30th 1953 the theft that changed biology occurred in a dimly lit King's College London office. Maurice Wilkins took out a folder containing Photo 51, Franklin's clearest X ray image of DNA, and showed it to James Watson. When Watson saw the photo, he reportedly became so excited he could barely concentrate. The X pattern was precisely what he and Crick needed. He rushed back to Cambridge, sketching the image from memory on a newspaper during his train ride. Within hours of returning, Watson and Crick began building their now famous metal model of DNA. They use Franklin's precise measurements from Photo 51 data, they had no permission to access, determine the exact dimensions of their model. Their paper announcing DNA structure was published on April 25th 1953. Franklin's own paper appeared on the same issue. However, it was placed third after Watson and Crick's despite containing the critical experimental evidence that proved their model, Franklin's only credit, a brief acknowledgement of having been stimulated by general knowledge of her work. The reality, without her Photo 51 and unpublished analysis, Watson and Crick would have been discovered months or years behind. Discovery would have been months or years behind. The final result came. Final insult, excuse me, came in 1962 Watson Crick and Wilkins shared the Nobel Prize in Medicine. Rosalind Franklin never saw that recognition. She died of ovarian cancer in 1958 at just 37 years old, likely caused by her extensive work with X ray radiation, Franklin's story is evidence of disturbing pattern science. Women's contributions get being minimized, credit taken by male colleagues, critical discoveries going unrecognized. Even Watson's 1968 book the double helix portrayed her dismissively, the truth emerged slowly over decades, her X ray work was crucial. Without Photo 51 no DNA model. Her mathematical analysis was pioneering. Her experimental techniques were groundbreaking. Today, Franklin is finally being recognized multiple buildings and programs named after her. Her face on medical walls, books document her achievements a Mars rover named Rosalind, but she never knew her true impact. Rosalind Franklin died, never knowing she'd helped unlock one of science greatest mysteries, but our rigorous methods, brilliant mind and dedication to truth exemplify what genius really means. I just think, you know, I mean, like, it's, how is it like? Is that positive? Like, now we recognize her and we didn't before, and I just think that, like, sometimes it's really, I think the moral is like, yay. Well, not the moral, but first of all, yay that we celebrate her, and yay now that we know this. And also you're gonna do some crazy amazing things, and someone else is gonna get a win, and it can suck so much, and it hurts, and so first of all, brag about what you're fucking doing. Do it. Brag about it, and I know that word is, like, really hard for a lot of us, women over a certain age, because we were told, like, never to brag, to be quiet, like it's actually ugly and it's not attractive, to brag and you have an ego. Bullshit. No. People need to know the work that you're doing and the work that you're working on so that you you can be the person known for it, right, for the things that you're doing, and I definitely struggle with that a lot. And luckily, like having to put myself out there has really helped me realize that, like, the impact that I'm making is is incredible, and the people who are impacted are doing amazing things that are impacting others, and it's a domino effect. So who am I to play small not talk about the things I'm doing, because then people who need the help that I have don't get it. People who need the help that you have don't get it, they don't know. So brag about yourself a little bit. And I, I love what Rosalind Franklin did, and I just there are, I encourage you, like if you're needing a bit of inspiration, and just like someone to help you, like, get yourself up and keep going, is find books that celebrate the women in history, because there's so many we didn't learn about because they didn't tell us, didn't tell us. So we have to go after it. Go look at it. Lesley Logan 6:33  All right. Let's get to some wins of yours. Here we go. This one is from, oh, it's our lovely Ainsley. My win's from San Fran. These photos pretty much sum it up, having so much fun in San Francisco, going to different studios with Jennifer Maison, a road trip to Sacramento with a show around at the Balanced Body headquarters by lovely Paul, chatting about our Cambodia times, they were all at the retreat in Cambodia together, and then the sushi adventures with Christine Kam-Lynch. Lesley, thank you for bringing us all together. You have dreams of creating community, and your dreams are making our dreams come true, sending me on adventures that would honestly explode my imagination if you would tell me three years ago that this is what I'd be doing. I trusted your process, and this is wild. Thank you. It was an incredible five days. PS, Lesley, I've only just seen the video sent to you. It was birthday margaritas. I'm so freaking proud of you, Ainsley, I'm so freaking proud of you. You know what's fun is, like, even if you had told me, like, if I had been told, like, oh, like, in five, in three years, I'm gonna be doing this, like, I'd be like, okay, great, I love this. Let's figure out we're gonna do it right, like I would believe it, and I'd still be wowed when it happened, because like so few people do what they say they're gonna do, so few people put the work in. I am so obsessed with all that agency and eLevate and OPC members do, because I know they're a fraction of the people out there who will actually do what they said they're going to do. They're a fraction. And so when they do it, I am so freaking excited for them. I love guiding people. You know, you thank me so much, and I, and I do take all of that, I receive all that gratitude. Because seven, well, gosh, how long has eLevate been around, Agency been around? Agency's been around since 2018. Eight years. Like, eight years ago, I didn't know what I was creating, but I knew what I wanted to create. And sitting here reading this win, I get to go, it's like a win for me too, because I get to go, wow. Like we did it. We created this community that expands continents, and people meet up with each other, and they take action, and I'm just so I'm just so stoked for you guys. I like, can't even get the words out. I'm so freaking stoked reliving that win, and though that video was so fun, and reliving what you're doing and but also, like, you have to be proud of what you're doing, because it's actually when I bring people together that isn't easy. But like, it's easy for you, right? Like, I bring people but you guys have to take the next step. You guys had to plan the trip and take the action, and you guys had to commit to it. And then amidst all that was going on, all of your lives still show up and do it. So many people won't, because there's a should have, could have, maybe I should be doing this instead. I'm just like, Thank you for celebrating this win with us, because I know you're inspiring other people to take action and allow themselves to be surprised by what could happen in just a short period of time, just three years, right? We think that's so long and it's so short, I can't believe it's only been three years since we've been doing this. So thank you. Lesley Logan 9:32  Okay, my win. So it's my birthday on Monday, (inaudible). I'm so excited about it, and I know I've celebrated past birthdays, like, I'm like, I love that like, I don't even care that. I'm like, it's another year on the book. It's like, it's like, so fun. But I will say, like, before Covid, I had the most fun birthday parties, and I loved it. And then after covid, you know, there just wasn't a lot of ways to, like, gather people together. Like, I had my first in-person birthday in Vegas. It was my second birthday here, and it was, I was looking at pictures about, like, I don't even know who these people are, because I didn't, I didn't know people. So like, just random people showed up, and that was a win. But then the 2023 and 2024, 2025, I just, 2025, I had, I actually, actually did have a birthday party, and that was really fun. But 2022, 2023 and 2024 I just really wasn't excited to celebrate my birthday. And it's not because I wasn't excited to get older. It's not because I was like, oh, like, I just was like, I just want to be on a vacation. I'm just a little tired. And that's because, like, as the business was growing and we thought we prepared ourselves for the growth of the business, you reflect and refine and go, oh, I should have been two months ahead, not just one month ahead. I should have been like, so you learn from these things, right? But it can take a year to put those new changes to effect. We always want things to happen tomorrow. That's just not how it goes, right? Like, some things do take time. At any rate, I would get to my birthday and I'm just like, I just don't even have the time for the invitations. I just don't even have the time to plan. I just want to, like, spa life. I just want to go to Mexico, like, so I did those things, right? And I'm proud of I'm proud of everything I did. I have great celebrations. But I really did want to have, like, a fun birthday. And I wanted to go back to having fun birthdays and excitement. Last year's was actually a great time. And so I'm like, oh, I remember how great these were. So Priya Parker, I think I told this as, like, an inspirational thing. Priya Parker had posted, she's the author of The Art of Gatherings, great book. And she posted, you know, this thing of, like, dressing for the wrong party party. And so I was like, I'm obsessed with this. Because first of all, everyone who has a January birthday or a late December birthday knows like, no one is excited for your birthday. Some people are doing dry January. Some people are broke because they just got their credit card bill from their holiday. Some people are sick. Like, it's just not like, not the thing. So I definitely have been like, there needs to be a reason to come. And I don't know if this will be an annual theme, because I don't know if people get bored with it, but I freaking love it. I love it. So I threw myself a dress for the wrong party party. It's happening this weekend, so I can't tell you what everyone dressed like, or what I dress up like, because now that it's like, I can dress however I want. I might change my outfit, I don't even know, but I have made the invites. I've sent them out. I have excitedly done it, not reluctantly done it. And so my win is I just found a way to get excited about the thing that I wanted to do, and I just wanted to share that with you, because, like, maybe it's not your birthday, but maybe there's like, things in your life that you know you want to do, but like, there's not an excitement around it. And I encourage you to figure out, like, what is, what is the thing that's surrounding the thing that you want to do that's blocking you from excitement? My, my win I think I just needed a new theme to do the birthday, and it made me so excited to do it. So that's my win. I did it. I no longer. I'm like, oh, it's my birthday. I guess I'll throw something together like I am freaking having a good time. And my husband, if he's listening to this, would go, we're having a good time. There's a funny comedian who does that. And so anyways, if you know him, then you'll have to. Lesley Logan 12:58  All right, my love and affirmation for you to take with you on my birthday weekend, I am complete as I am, others simply support me. I am complete as I am, others simply support me. I am complete as I am, others simply support me. Babe, you are complete as you are, and we are here to support you. So until next time, Be It Till You See It. Lesley Logan 13:23  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 14:06  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 14:11  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 14:15  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 14:22  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 14:26  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Lesley Logan and Brad Crowell unpack the conversation with Pav Lertjitbanjong, founder of Pavness Leadership Lab, and why job security is an illusion for most people. They explore what it really means to build career resilience so you feel less anxious about change and more confident in your options. The conversation also highlights the three key numbers Pav says everyone should know to create stability in uncertain times. If you’ve been waiting to feel secure before making a move, this episode is a reminder that security is something you build. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:Understanding career resilience as knowing your value beyond a job title.How emotional clarity reduces fear during career uncertainty.Understanding the role financial numbers play in personal stability.How strategic debt can support long-term financial stability.Why maintaining client relationships protects income for entrepreneurs.Episode References/Links:Cambodia Retreat Waitlist - https://crowsnestretreats.comAgency Mini - https://prfit.biz/miniContrology Pilates Conference in Poland - https://xxll.co/polandContrology Pilates Conference in Brussels - https://xxll.co/brusselsPOT in London - https://xxll.co/potSpring Training: How To Get Overhead - https://opc.me/eventsPilates Posters - https://opc.me/postersSubmit your wins or questions - https://beitpod.com/questionsLayoff-Proof Your Life Emergency Checklist - https://www.layoffready.com/emergencykitPav Lertjitbanjong's Website - https://www.pavness.comEp. 352: Tess Waresmith - https://beitpod.com/tesswaresmith If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentCheck out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper’s Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentBe in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlistBe It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-surveyBe a part of Lesley’s Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gLesley Logan website https://lesleylogan.co/Be It Till You See It Podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjogqXLnfyhS5VlU4rdzlnQProfitable Pilates https://profitablepilates.com/about/Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesley.logan/The Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gFacebook https://www.facebook.com/llogan.pilatesLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-logan/The OPC YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@OnlinePilatesClasses Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  People do need to know that their job security is an illusion, so that they can not only have career resilience, but also just be really aware of that they have a lot more power than they think. And I think sometimes people go, oh, my ability to stay in this job is their decision when it's actually your decision. Lesley Logan 0:18  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. Brad Crowell 1:01  Take it away. Lesley Logan 1:03  Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co-host in life, Brad, and I are going to dig into the purposeful convo I had with Pav Lertjitbanjong in our last episode. If you haven't yet listened to that interview, feel free to pause us now, go back and listen to that one and then come back and join us. Yeah. Do both. You got time. You can also put it on a 1.5 speed. I mean, we talk fast, but you can still understand us.Brad Crowell 1:26  Yeah. I mean, it's gonna be awesome. It was actually a great, very transparent convo is the right way to say it.Lesley Logan 1:33  I would say so I actually really appreciate, like, having someone be so honest about the transition that they're on. I don't think enough people share that. And so I think that was a beautiful gift for everyone listening. Because otherwise you just listen, people got their shit together, and you're like, oh, they got it all together. And it's like, well, you know, they they have it looks that way, but it's a journey.Brad Crowell 1:53  Yeah. And I think, I think the idea of preparing to step away from a job is always a win, you know, to have it together on the inside. So that's good. Anyway. What is today?Lesley Logan 2:04  Yes, well, today is January 22nd. It's four days until my birthday, everyone. Brad Crowell 2:09  What? Lesley Logan 2:09  Yeah, but that's not what today is. Today is January 22nd 2026 and it's Roe Versus Wade Day. Roe Versus Wade Day is celebrated on January 22nd, the anniversary of the court case that gave women agency over their bodies. And here we go. The US Supreme Court made a ruling that legalized abortion throughout the country, with variations from state to state depending on the length of the pregnancy, no matter what your opinion is on the controversial abortion debat,e should not be fucking controversial, and it does matter what your opinion is. But here we go. Roe Versus Wade Day marked a pivotal turn in US history, the anniversary of landmark court decision celebrated by people everywhere, especially by women. Unfortunately, on Friday, June 24th 2022 the Supreme Court overturned Roe Versus Wade, the landmark piece of legislation that made access to abortion a federal right in the United States. The decision dismantled 50 years of legal protection paved the way for individual states to curtail or outright ban abortion rights. My loves. Brad Crowell 2:59  Which is happening. Lesley Logan 3:01  It's happening. It's happened. People, women are losing their ability to have have babies because they can't get what they need. The biggest thing if you, if you're like, uncomfortable with the word abortion, and I get that because if you were raised religious, you probably were raised and it's like, the worst thing anyone can do. And like all these women regret it. I can't speak for these people. What I can say is, men get to go to every fucking state in the country, and their rights don't change. But if I go to different states, my rights do change. And for the majority of the listeners, you go to a different state, your rights do change. And it's just really pisses me off that we don't have like that we're constantly fighting for equality in this capacity. And what this means is hospitals and doctors in the areas where there is not abortion available will have less experience and less understanding about what to do when a mother needs it. And if you try to tell me, in case of like, the healthcare of the mother, the doctors are so scared and they will have to answer questions. Brad Crowell 3:59  That they're not helping the mother.Lesley Logan 4:01  That they're that they're not so we have to wait till women go septic, yeah, which is the worst you you are lucky if you come back from that a normal person. So it just really pisses me off, because this is not a this should not be a fucking law. This is a health right.Brad Crowell 4:15  So as of November of this year, 2025, 12 states have near abortion bans, or for all intents and purposes, abortion bans in place. Alabama, Arkansas, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas and West Virginia. Lesley Logan 4:32  Was Idaho on there? Brad Crowell 4:33  Idaho is on there. And addition, North Dakota has a near total ban that was recently revived in the state's Supreme Court, which makes it a felony to perform an abortion, except in limited medical emergency or cases of rape and incest. And that's the problem. The problem is the limited medical emergencies, and that's never clear. And so regardless of whether or not the doctor knows that that's what needs to happen, the hospital is basically saying, don't, don't do it because they're gonna get. Yeah or the doctors themselves are worried about it, because, you know, like, in Texas, they're like, going after doctors. It's nuts.Lesley Logan 5:09  There's okay. So I saw something recently, and I'm hopefully, as I as I say out loud, I'll get it right. So because some states are trying to grab doctors from other states that are helping women access abortion, right? Like some doctors from New York can send medications to people in different states and and allow them to safely, you know, have a decision over their body. And some of these states are trying to, poor women are going to different states, and then, you know, so the state that the woman is from is trying to do something to the doctors or the woman for doing that right in the place where they have a right. And someone explained it like, okay, Nevada has legalized gambling, right? But let's say you're from a state that doesn't have legalized gambling, and you go to Nevada and you gamble, and you win money, right? You gamble. It's proof you did it. That would be like the state you're from arresting you for gambling.Brad Crowell 6:06  So you didn't finish that. So then you go home to whatever state, yes, and they arrest you, yes. But you were in Nevada.Lesley Logan 6:12  Yes, where it's legal. Brad Crowell 6:14  Right. Lesley Logan 6:15  So if that, if you're like, oh, that doesn't make any sense. It's the same fucking thing when it comes to women's and abortions like this is and to be honest, like if you struggle with this, I really need you to do some extra research on what an abortion is, on what the Bible has even said. I need you to understand what, what, what week a baby is even viable on their own. And then I need you to look at how much it costs to be a parent, and you need to understand if you are also not voting for health care for children, for food at all of their schools and all these different things you do not care about life, you don't. If you are not, if you are also not voting for every single thing that makes it illegal to be poor in this country, you do you don't understand what being pro life actually means. And I know that sounds harsh, but that's how I feel. It's how I feel. I used to, used to think, okay, well, they can have a difference of opinion, not anymore, not when women are dying, not when women who are not able to have the babies that they want to have because something went wrong and that affects their ability to have babies in the future. No.Brad Crowell 7:21  Yeah, the laws that that are being passed are, I would argue that the terminology is confusing that I would not say it's fair to call them pro life. They're, in fact, pro birth. So they're, they're not looking out for the mother ever. They're looking out for what could hypothetically be a child someday, maybe. Right?Lesley Logan 7:43  Yeah, that they don't, that they're not going to care for once it's once it's born. Brad Crowell 7:48  Well, that's not necessarily the case but. Lesley Logan 7:50  I'm not talking about the parents. I'm talking about the law. I'm talking about the, the parents, oh, some of these people already have kids and they're like, I have enough. Some of them just are in the wrong time of their life. Some of them don't want to have them. Some of them, you know, it is with someone that they don't want to have a child with. This is all their rights to have. Brad Crowell 8:05  Yeah. I mean, the running joke is that the law cares before you're born, and then once you turn 18 and you can join the military, but between those times, good luck.Lesley Logan 8:15  Yeah, yeah. So anyways, I, I know, I know there's there's there's, I understand if you are someone who has a hard time with this topic, because I do remember being a child and a teenager and a young adult having a problem with this topic. And the more research I did, the more I realized how many, how, how hard it is for a for the woman in this country, specifically, and how, how much, how, in this country, we have women who will die giving birth because we do not do proper medical research, we do not care baby like we have a high mortality rate in this country that we should for a first world country, because of all, and because what I've seen what having a baby does with her body, it is her choice. She should be able to do what she wants, and there isn't judgment negatively around it.Brad Crowell 9:03  Yeah,we have a higher maternal mortality rate than most other high income countries. Whis is mind blowing.Lesley Logan 9:09  And then when you go deeper, when you go deeper, look at how high it is for black women versus white women.Brad Crowell 9:14  Yeah, significantly higher risk for black women and women over 40.Lesley Logan 9:17  And if you are worried, it's because, oh, maybe it's a different No, a high school educated white woman will have more likelihood of surviving over a medically educated black woman because of racism in this country and the stress it does on our bodies. My loves, like I will always, I will fight for women's rights, and one of those rights is having choice over what happens to your body, period, no matter what state you're in and if you don't want babies to be aborted, then you need to go to your congress people make sure that they're taken care of, because I think more women would even have a child if they had help and support. We don't do that here. So on this day, call your congress person, see what they're doing for people who have children and need help.Brad Crowell 10:00  Yeah, yeah. This is a tough this is a tough conversation. I think that. Lesley Logan 10:06  It's hard. Brad Crowell 10:06  Well, it's, what frustrates me is also that this is for 50 years the law was clear, yeah, and then three years ago now, we've got a bunch of Supreme Court justices who are like, just kidding, and they're just taking these kinds of rights away. And that frustrates me more than anything, is that that, that that's even an option. That shit, it was, it was the law of the land, you know. So that's, that's insane to me, and I, I think that the only way that stability gets created is if we are all paying attention to the things that are happening in our state and also in our federal government. But you know, right now, it's up to every single state to protect their women, you know, individually. And so it's important for you to participate in this and be educated and call the people who are making the decisions in your state.Lesley Logan 11:01  And also, it used to be, if you didn't like something for you personally, you just don't do it. So if you don't like abortion, don't get one. Brad Crowell 11:08  Right. Lesley Logan 11:09  But like, like, you know, it's just, it's really hard. It's just it get gets me really. I was just at the I was just at the women's clinic today. I love my women's clinic. If you do live in Las Vegas, the WHASN clinic. Shout out to the WHASNclinic. It is fucking phenomenal. At any rate, they have like, a sign on the wall, which is like, how to prevent pregnancy, right? And sterilization for a woman, or vasectomy for a man, are in are like, not going to have a baby, not going to happen, okay? And then they go through like, okay here are the birth controls. This is how we have to change them. This is how effective they are. So it starts to go from 99.9% to like 97% to 94% here effectiveness in preventing pregnancy. And here's what it said at the bottom of this. And this is like mind blowing that they do not teach people in school because they don't want you to know, because they want you. They want you dumb and pregnant. They if you are not doing anything to prevent pregnancy. So you aren't on a birth control, you don't have any protection going on birth like things like that. He doesn't have anything. You're 85% likely to have a baby if you are, if you have reproductive abilities and you don't, don't do any intervention, the chance of you getting pregnant annually will be 85% not in your lifetime, annually. So don't be shocked when people end up pregnant. People can, they can accidentally take not even accidentally. They could get sick and they need an antibiotic, and it it causes their their birth control to not work, literally, right? I have friends who had IUDs, and their parents got pregnant with them. So like all people can do all the right things and still have this pregnancy happen, and it might not be the right time for them, or it might not be the right thing for them, and they that is their fucking business. Period. I have no judgment towards people who do it or don't do it. It's up to you, but it should be up to you, and the fact that it's not in certain states pisses me off. Anyways, we do need to move on, yeah, but hope, hopefully you're off. I feel like people are fired up with us, but just pass it on to your friend.Brad Crowell 13:09  Yeah. Well, look, let's shift gears here. That's a heavy topic that we're obviously very passionate about. So thanks for following along. Here's what's coming up in our world here. So it's right now, today, January 22nd is the second to last day to get the early bird for joining us this year in Cambodia at a Pilates retreat at Crow's nest, right? So go to crowsnestretreats.com. Tomorrow is the last day to get the early bird. January 23rd is the last day to get the early bird. Go to crowsnestretreats.com or just DM us if you want the link, we'll send it over. Next week is Lesley's birthday, like she already said.Lesley Logan 13:44  I know, I'll be 43 I know, so good. Brad Crowell 13:48  We're just, we're just sharing that. We're probably gonna. Lesley Logan 13:51  No birthday sale. Brad Crowell 13:52  Go out to dinner or something here.Lesley Logan 13:54  Open a party, babe. We're having a party where you dress for the wrong party party.Brad Crowell 13:58  Oh yeah, yeah, we're doing that. That's right. Next month, February, Agency Mini is coming back. We're going to be doing Profitable Pilates is hosting Agency Mini. If you have ever felt like, what's the thing that sets me apart as a Pilates teacher from my my super close friend who's also a Pilates teacher, then you should come to Agency Mini. Lesley Logan 14:16  Yeah. Or if you're frustrated by the studios in town where they are lacking training their own. They're like, they're buying, like, cheap and cheerful $200 reformers and packing people. And you're like, come to Agency Mini because we will with you and also give you what you need to stand out, because that's what we do.Brad Crowell 14:33  Yeah, so go to prfit.biz/mini. Just make a noise over there. Lesley Logan 14:40  Just me making noise. Brad Crowell 14:41  prfit.biz/mini that's profit without the O dot biz. And then in March, we're going to be bopping around Europe and looking forward to that. We're going to be in Poland and then in Brussels. So if you are anywhere near either of those places, go to xxll.co/poland, or xxll.co/brussels. And then in April, we're going to be at POT in London. Lesley Logan 15:05  And by now it has announced. Brad Crowell 15:07  Yeah, it's announced. Tickets are available. So come join us. Come hang out. It's gonna be super fun. Go to xxll.co/pot. And then finally, this is new for those of you who listen every week, thank you for that. May. We are going to be doing spring training again, and this time, we have a really cool topic. We're going to be doing How to Get Overhead.Lesley Logan 15:25  Yeah, we're getting your butts upside down. Brad Crowell 15:27  Get your buns in the air. Lesley Logan 15:28  So if you struggle with overhead exercises, or you feel like it's not in your practice, or you want to be doing them, we're talking like back knives, headstands, control balance, all the ones upside down. Brad Crowell 15:39  Any of those. Lesley Logan 15:40  And you don't have to have to have equipment. We'll have mat classes, we'll have Reformer, we'll have everything. We'll have something for everybody. And if you're on the early bird wait list, for sure, you get a better access options all that good stuff. Brad Crowell 15:49  So go to opc.me/events that's opc.me/events plural, and sign up for the events waitlist. And you know, we'll let you know about the things that happen throughout the year, and then, yeah, so that's what's happening through May. And then this week, we actually had a question from one of our eLevate grads. Her name is Shannon Billings, and she pinged us on IG and she said, hey, I saw those, those posters that you guys made of all the exercises in a grid, and I want to hang them on my wall. Lesley Logan 16:20  Yeah, they're pretty. Brad Crowell 16:21  But I cannot find them. I don't know where I'm supposed to be looking. Where should I where can I find those posters?Lesley Logan 16:26  Yeah, so they're on the OPC site, and the quickest link is just opc.me/posters. And here's the coolest thing about these posters. You guys right now, we're not good at going to the post office, so these are print on demand posters. They're beautiful, so don't let that change. They don't. Doesn't change the quality. Quality is freaking awesome. Yeah, they're great. What it means is, when you, wherever you live in the world, they'll probably print it somewhere near you. So that means shipping to you is actually not astronomical.Brad Crowell 16:50  Yeah, it's pretty reasonable. We've had people order them in Europe or in Australia, and it's, it's not crazy, it's not an arm I'm gonna like to ship. So, yeah, go check that out opc.me/posters, and if you have any questions, just text us at 310-905-5534,Brad Crowell 17:03  Or beitpod.com/questions Brad Crowell 17:04  beitpod.com/questions where you can also leave a win. Lesley Logan 17:10  I just want to add to that, some people are putting two posters per poster frame. So like on one side, it's the mat, and the other side is the reformer or tower. And so if you have not a lot of space, but you want all the posters, order all of them, because you can get frames that have clear stuff on both sides, and you can just like, flip it. Brad Crowell 17:30  Flip it. Yeah. That's clever. Lesley Logan 17:31  I saw a girl who she has my posters, and then she has a different set of posters that are black and white. And so sometimes she wants color, sometimes she wants it to be not. So you can do that. Brad Crowell 17:41  Love that. Lesley Logan 17:42  I know people are so creative, you got to share that stuff.Brad Crowell 17:46  Well, stick around. We'll be right back. We're gonna talk about Pav Lertjitbanjong. Brad Crowell 17:53  All right, welcome back. Let's talk about your conversation with Pav. Pav Lertjitbanjong is the creator of Layoff Ready, the financial resilience program that she built before her work evolved into Pavness Leadership Lab. Lesley Logan 18:08  I love it. So cute. Brad Crowell 18:09  The Pavness Leadership Lab, I love it. She after a divorce that left her financially and emotionally depleted. She spent months avoiding the reality of her situation before finally facing her budget a single day of focus work that revealed nearly a half a million dollars in a forgotten 401(k), pretty crazy. From there, she paid off six figures in debt, rebuilt her stability and retired from corporate life at the age of 43. Today, through the pavness leadership lab, Pav studies how people build courage and make clear decisions under pressure, continuing her mission to empower others, to create long-lasting stability, confidence and options in your lives. Yeah. Lesley Logan 18:47  Yeah. I really enjoyed this conversation, because I think we talk a lot about strengths and knowing what your strengths are. And, you know, we even have a conversation about retirement coming up and things like that. But, like, I think people live in fear of different change, what if I lose my job, what if I lose this. But she's like, okay, so what if we've talked about career resilience and having a career resilience and so allowing yourself to really understand it's better, that it's more than just like, okay, I'm financially ready if I get laid off. It's like, no, like, how can you really understand who you are and what you do, what makes you amazing? So which I really love that she brought up, like, job security is an illusion. It fucking is. And it pisses me off that banks value a W2 when some of us are over here betting on ourselves and every year kicking ass. I'm just saying from personal experience, it's just me. But what don't you think? Brad Crowell 19:32  You're not wrong. It's really annoying. I mean, I don't know how else they would should do it, but like, just historically.Lesley Logan 19:39  Just look at my history. Just look at my taxes last look at what I'm doing. Brad Crowell 19:43  Yeah, there's that.Lesley Logan 19:46  But I but I appreciate that she brought that up. I think we I think people do need to know that their job security is an illusion, so that they can not only have career resilience, but also just be really aware of that they have a lot more power than they think. And I think sometimes people go, oh, my ability to stay in this job is their decision when it's actually your decision. You know, just like an interview, if you want a job, it's your decision, all that stuff. And she also brought up, and I thought this is really cool, the emotional clarity that gives you peace of mind. When you have career resilience, it gives you a lot more clarity. So I think it means, like, less anxiety about, I'm going to lose my job. What am I going to do? Like you just feel a lot better about it, you know? And it's critical, because we are going into a weird world of AI, and I don't even know what that means for a lot of people's jobs, because I teach Pilates, and luckily, right now, AI kind of sucks at doing that.Brad Crowell 20:35  Yeah. I mean, so the conversation that y'all had was more focused on not necessarily walking away from a job that you might currently have, but what if, right, being prepared for worst case scenario? Because who knows, you know, who knows? Like nothing is especially now, things feel very unstable, economically, I think it's more of a feeling than it is a numbers thing. But it doesn't change the fact that it's a feeling still, and people are feeling weird about it.Lesley Logan 21:04  Yeah, and weird feelings have changed economies many times in history. And so, yeah, I also think I just want to bring up.Brad Crowell 21:12  But the point the point is, then that, you know, not necessarily wanting to leave a job, but how do you be prepared for it? And this is the kind of thing that she digs into. Like, she, she talked about layoff being layoff proof.Lesley Logan 21:25  She even has a checklist for you guys, and I think that that is, if that's something you are, like, I want to be layoff proof. Like, I might as well start now. You know, you don't want to start it after. So it's layoff ready.com/emergencykit.Brad Crowell 21:39  Yeah, look, and here's the thing, for those of you who are entrepreneurs like us, you're clearly not laying yourself off. The best thing, the biggest thing you could possibly be doing is conveying to your clients how you are adding value into their life, and not necessarily you are, although inadvertently you are. Pilates is how is your teaching? How? What is it that is benefiting them? How is their life changing? And I'm working on a series right now with our Agency members, where I'm helping walk them through not only how to identify the benefits the changes that they're seeing, but also how to communicate those to their clients without feeling weird about it and not being overly like salesy, because if you can continue to reinforce the why that they initially told you that they were coming and then reminding them about the changes that you're seeing as a teacher in their world, right, it's going to change the way that they value their practice with you. So especially for y'all you know, entrepreneurs out there who laying layoff proof, like, what am I supposed to do for that? I'm not, I'm not firing myself. So how do we make sure that we are maintaining our income? We really have to continue to build relationships with our clients. You have to continue to do that.Lesley Logan 22:59  Yeah, I think that's and we actually have a relationship, like authentic relationship episode coming out soon, like, and they'll be in April. Brad Crowell 23:07  Amazing. I love that. Yeah. Well, one of the things I really dug that she mentioned was she said, how can you really design a life that you wanted to live? It could give you the freedom to walk away, whether that means leaving the job or retiring early. And she said, if you are waiting for security, if you're waiting to feel security, you should be building it, not waiting for it. So whether that is maybe you're learning how to do another skill, or maybe you're learning how to manage money, you know, we've had a bunch of people over the years in the pod about this, like Tess Waresmith is one that comes back to me here and talking about financial stability and literacy, financial literacy. So these are things that you could be learning how to just think through. Lesley Logan 23:51  We have Tess Waresmith coming back. Brad Crowell 23:53  Oh, that's even better. Lesley Logan 23:53  I just oh, it's a great interview, guys. It's gonna be so good. I was just like, girl, I need you to tell me how I'm supposed to do when it's like this, and it's crazy like now, when it feels crazy. I also just want to highlight the don't wait for security created. This is everything this is, this is be it till you see it right here, because I was listening to a phone call conversation in a book club I'm in, and some people were complaining that the situation they're in, they can't create a culture. They have all these other outside things. It's affecting the culture they're creating, and I'm listening to them and like, I get that right? And I was like, I waited a second. I was just like, well, I am in a different studio all the time. Like, I'm in a I don't have a studio, right? And so what do I do? And I'm like, oh, in every space that I go, I own the space that I am, and I create the intention that I want. I create the culture I want them to experience, and I set the stage and I shared that with them. I said, instead of waiting until you can, like, move studios or move this, what if you just acted the culture you want to create in the space right now? Because then, if you do get to change a situation, you'll already have practiced it. It'll be really easy for you to do, or you might not even have to leave. Maybe the culture just changes around you. And so it goes back to like, don't wait to feel secure. Create security. What is the be it till you see it? What does security for you in your job or something else look like? And how can you create it in the space that you're in and wait, instead of waiting for someone to wait for someone to come, put a fence up, you know, you know what I mean, like, you're gonna wait for someone to, like, hand you a lottery tickets you have extra money. Like, what are you gonna do? I think that I like the action step that she's providing here.Brad Crowell 25:29  Yeah, one thing that she was talking about, which might sound a little scary, she actively leveraged debt to to consolidate and then pay off her debt, right? I mean, I've done that too, where I took out a credit card with a balance. I transferred one or two or three credit cards to that one, right? It had something like, if you transfer it in, you get 12 months of, no, you know, no fees, yeah. And so, you know, took those 12 months to pay it down, yeah? So, you know, it just something that seems straightforward, but also might feel you might feel hesitant to get started on that, but you know that stuff's worth, worth thinking through. I think so.Lesley Logan 26:12  I think it's worth talking to people who who understand it too, like a wealth manager or things like that. But like to be honest, that is how the rich get richer, right? Like credit score is, if you're in the States, your credit score is pretty much just like, how do you manage debt? So if you're debt free, and you've always been debt free, and you don't get any cards, you actually don't have a perfect credit score, because you don't have credit for them to like, see how you do. So it is all about strategically leveraging debt to, like, increase that score. You can strategically leverage it to allow you to have the security you need for in case something negative happens in your career or in the journey that you're on.Brad Crowell 26:47  Yeah, well, stick around. We'll be right back. We're gonna cover those Be It Action Items that you had with Pav. Brad Crowell 26:53  Okay, welcome back. Let's talk about those Be It Action Items. What bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Pav Lertjitbanjong.Lesley Logan 27:07  Pav let us know if, after the four attempts, any of us got close on that.Brad Crowell 27:11  She said, Know your numbers, which is so funny, because this is like, I never stopped saying this to our coaching clients. It's so easy to know your numbers, but it seems so hard, right? It seems like this scary black hole of like, oh my God, I don't even know what I need to know. So it just seems like this amorphous, like blob of unknown. And when we dig into the things that most people need to really know is, what are your expenses and what are your income? Those are the things. That's where you want to start, right? What are your expenses and what are your income? Yeah, so she said, for her, it's, she said there's three numbers that truly matter. One is your net worth, right? So she's, she said, assets minus liability. What does that mean? An asset would be, maybe you have a house, right? Liability would be, I have a credit card debt and it has, you know, $10,000 on it. Okay, great. So you have a house that has, you know, or actually, you could say the house is worth $250,000 I still have a loan of $150,000 against the house. So I have equity of $100,000 right? So that's net that's your net worth, right? So that's an easier way to think about that. She also said the second number is something she calls an FU fund, what she describes as that six month cushion that lets you walk away from anything you have to, you know. And today we were talking about it. Maybe it's a little more than six, maybe it's six to nine months, or something like that, where you know, okay, because you know your expenses, and let's just hypothetically say your expenses are 10,000 a month, you know, how do we what's the quickest way that we can get to setting aside $60,000 that's a scary number to be honest. That's a lot, you know, but we got to get started. You have to start sometime, right? And that that kind of buffer will certainly protect you were something bad to happen at an employment situation, and then you feel like, stuck, and you're like, Oh my God, but at least you have a buffer, right? So that's what that that's for. And then finally, she said, your firing number, your fire number, how much money would you need to invest in the market so you can make smaller amount each year on 4% and still have money left to reinvest, right? So what does that mean? That's your like retirement number, right? So for anyone who's who's like financial planner, they'll ask you the question of, all right, how much money do you want to live on a month? Again, let's just say $10,000 and then they'll, what they'll do is they'll work backwards based on your your retirement portfolio, and they're going to assume that you'll be able to live if $10,000 a month is the 4% number, then they'll be able to reverse engineer the number and be like, great. You need to have $2 million or, I think it's more than that, but you'll need to, need to have X amount of dollars in your portfolio so that you can live comfortably on $10,000 a month and never have to worry about it again, because it's in the market, right? So, and the reason that she said 4% is because the average market return is eight, like seven to 8% or maybe even it's eight to nine, I don't remember, but if you can live on half of that, that gives you the other half of what you hypothetically are earning to reinvest back into the market again, right? So that's, that's where the numbers, that's how that kind of breaks down. It's a bit in the weeds. So thanks for following me there.Lesley Logan 30:25  I love that she has those and that you did those ones, because the other one is pretty amazing. And this is simple, but true. Bold doesn't have to be loud, but it has to be true. And so you don't have to have this, like, law, the way I interpret this, like you don't have to make this bold move where you're like, what was that Tom Cruise movie, where he just, like, was like, goodbye, fuck you. I'm out of here. Like, who's coming with me? And like, Renee's. What was that movie? It's the one that everyone quotes, and it's the worst one. Jerry Maguire.Brad Crowell 30:55  Jerry Maguire. Lesley Logan 30:55  Jerry Maguire. Brad Crowell 30:56  Show me the money. Lesley Logan 30:57  Show me the money. And like, but it doesn't have to be like that, but it but, but whatever you do needs to be true to you. And I think that's where a lot of people don't take time, is to, like, really understand, like, what do you want? What do you need, you know, and, and that's scary, because maybe what you want and need is different than what you've been doing, you know, or maybe you've been letting yourself realize, like, how strong you are. And we have a couple great episodes coming up about, like, getting to know yourself and like, also being kind yourself if you haven't lived in that way. But truly, I think that's one of the best be it action items, if you if you can do that, if you could live authentically to you, and you can know your numbers, you are resilient, and you could probably kick some ass. Brad Crowell 31:39  Kicks some ass.Lesley Logan 31:40  Yeah, yeah. So the other thing is, is that Pav has actually been, recently, been doing more coaching in a focused position on the science of making courageous decisions under pressure. And so if you are needing more help with like, making great decisions under pressure, things like that, you can also coach with her. And I think that'll be really if you liked how she sounds and how she coaches and her insight on things. I think that's a really great thing that she's doing. You know, because making courageous decisions are really hard, and also, like, she understands how to, like, take imperfect action, even your nervous system resists. And a lot of people, you know, when you have to make big decisions, sometimes your nervous system does have anxiety. And so of course, it does. Why wouldn't it? It it would be so against what our brain does to go into the fear. So I highly recommend reaching out to her. Brad Crowell 32:25  Awesome. Yeah, that's great. Lesley Logan 32:27  Well, I'm Lesley Logan. Brad Crowell 32:28  And I'm Brad Crowell. Lesley Logan 32:29  Thanks so much for being here, and thanks for listening to our rants. I do happen to know that people like them and someone reach out after our Transgender Day, and they were so glad that they found us. They found our Pilates stuff, and they like our little rants there. So thank you for that. Send this to a friend who needs to hear it, especially one who needs some career resilience or some support, support under making decisions under pressure and until next time, Be It Till You See It. Brad Crowell 32:53  Bye for now. Lesley Logan 32:54  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 33:37  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 33:42  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 33:46  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 33:53  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 33:57  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

After rebuilding her life from divorce and financial uncertainty, Pav Lertjitbanjong shares why job security is often an illusion—and what actually creates peace of mind. In this conversation, Pav explains how becoming layoff ready is about strategically creating options for yourself before you’re forced to make a change. She breaks down the three numbers that bring clarity to financial decisions and why waiting for security keeps people stuck. This episode is a grounded look at what it really means to layoff-proof your life. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:How Pav found clarity after emotional overwhelm.Pav’s own strategic approach to paying off her debt.What layoff proofing your life truly means for your future.Why job security is an illusion but career resilience is not.Three numbers everyone needs to feel financially prepared.Episode References/Links:Pav Lertjitbanjong's Website - https://www.pavness.comPav Lertjitbanjong's Tiktok - https://www.tiktok.com/@momentsofresetPavness YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@PavnessLabPav Lertjitbanjong's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/pavnesslabGuest Bio:Pav Lertjitbanjong is a marketing and brand strategist with more than two decades of experience leading strategy for global, billion-dollar brands. She is the creator of PAVNESS, a framework designed to help high-achieving individuals navigate major life transitions with clarity, courage, and intention. Known for turning complex strategy into clear, human-centered stories, Pav’s work lives at the intersection of brand positioning, personal reinvention, and meaningful messaging. Her approach is shaped not just by her professional background, but by her own experience rebuilding her life through uncertainty and change. Pav believes true success is not defined by titles, revenue, or external validation, but by alignment and the confidence to be fully seen. Today, she helps leaders and creators reconnect with who they are becoming—both in business and in life. Her story is a reminder that clarity comes from honesty, and bold moves often begin quietly. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentCheck out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper’s Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentBe in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlistBe It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-surveyBe a part of Lesley’s Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gLesley Logan website https://lesleylogan.co/Be It Till You See It Podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjogqXLnfyhS5VlU4rdzlnQProfitable Pilates https://profitablepilates.com/about/Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesley.logan/The Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gFacebook https://www.facebook.com/llogan.pilatesLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-logan/The OPC YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@OnlinePilatesClasses Episode Transcript:Pav Lertjitbanjong 0:00  I rebuilt my life after divorce and basically left me completely shattered financially and emotionally, but I learned how to layoff-proof my life, and now I'm quitting my job and retiring from corporate at 43 years old. So now I teach people how to take control of their money and rebound from any situation without overwhelm.Lesley Logan 0:22  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. Lesley Logan 1:05  All right, Be It babe, this is a interesting conversation you're about to hear, because I really was super intrigued by our guests today. I got to meet them several months ago, talk about what they're excited to do. They have actually been a listener of the Be It Pod for a really long time. They've been being it till they see it. And that's literally why they are sharing what they're doing right now. And so I'm super excited for you to hear about Pav and being layoff, layoff ready, right? And I think that's you might be thinking, wow, aren't talking about laying on, getting laid off? You guys, we have to. We have to. Some of you in your be it till you see it might have to be laid off, or might get laid off, or might want to be laid off. So, so I think this is a really cool conversation of like preparedness and also, like honesty about what is life? What is the life we want? Like, have we been honest with ourselves? And when I got off the comic path, we talked about confidence a little bit, and so it wasn't recorded. So I kind of want to just like, bring this in and then I want to you to hear this amazing episode from Pav and hear her journey, and hear what she's doing here, so she's helping people, because I think a lot of people are going to need, like, layoff proof their life. So, confidence, you guys, confidence, isn't something you are deemed with. No one gives it to you. It's also not something you go and get. Confidence comes from doing the thing you said you do. So every time you tell yourself you're gonna go for a walk around the block, and then you postpone it to like answer an email, you are actually etching away at your confidence. But if you go and do the walk, then you are increasing your confidence strength. A lot of people think, oh, once I'm more confident, then I will do X. No, do X, and you will become more confident, right? So with that said, thank you, Pav, for that wonderful question. I'm so sorry you guys, wasn't recorded. I hope that little tidbit gets you there, and here's Pav and Layoff Ready. Lesley Logan 3:02  All right, Be It babe, I'm excited, today's topic, I think maybe we've touched on it a little bit in people's stories, but never had like, someone who's expert at it, someone who's, like, truly been through the trenches and come on the other side, and like, has expertise to share with you, and like skill sets and all those things also probably one of the coolest Be It actions I've ever seen someone do. I hope we get into it as well. Pav, you're our guest today, can you tell everyone who you are and what you're rocking at? Pav Lertjitbanjong 3:29  Yes. Hi Lesley, thank you so much for having me. It's been an honor to be here. So I am Pav Lertjitbanjong. I'm the founder of Layoff Ready and a financial resilience mentor. So basically, what I do is I help professionals to help build income security and freedom. And, you know, before that, I was working in corporate, just like most people, and realized that, you know, finally it's the matrix that we kind of, like, you know, onto, like, this hamster wheel, and had this moment and eventually got out of it. So yeah, and I rebuilt my life after divorce, and basically, kind of left me completely shattered financially and emotionally, but I learned how to layoff proof my life, and now I'm, you know, quitting my job and retiring from corporate at 43 years old. So now I teach people how to take control of their money and and, you know, rebound from any situation without overwhelm and fluff.Lesley Logan 4:27  Oh, I love this. First of all, 43 and you're, like, retired. I think you had all of us. I mean, clearly you're working, you create your own thing, but like, you're retired from corporate life. Like, I think a lot of ears perked up, because that's not the option for a lot of people. I do want to take a step back, because I do love that you shared that like you have gone through divorce, you have had to pick up yourself and put all the pieces back together and start over, like a lot of people listening to the show, you know? I mean, I hope we have some Gen Z, but most likely, most of them are a little they're over 40, and we have been. And through things in life, and sometimes we can take it really personally and think there's something wrong with us. How can we go back in time a little bit like, how did you pick the pieces up after divorce? Like, what? What did you do to even get yourself to a place? Because I can't, unless your divorce was 20 years ago, it feels like this all happened very quickly, that you went from divorced and broke to, like, retiring from corporate. Pav Lertjitbanjong 5:22  Yeah and Lesley, thank you so much for asking me this question, and it's the one that I've kind of like pondered for so long, because, you know, like, when we've been through like, such dramatic situation like this, right? Like we don't usually reflect on the lessons that we typically learn from so I thought about that. So basically, okay, let me just maybe backward on, like, okay, my divorce situation. So I've been married for about seven years, and then, you know, things didn't work out. I think part of this now that I have, like, my renewed faith in in God and, you know, the universe, I believe that if you are onto the path that God is not blessing you, that is not your true calling, he will destroy that path. And that resulted into my divorce. And so the moment that I gathered courage to okay, say to myself that okay, I cannot be in this situation anymore. I need to really do something, or I'm gonna spend the rest of my life, you know, crying about it for the life that I have not lived. And just like what you always say, you know, we do it messy, and we, right? Lesley Logan 6:36  Yeah. Life is messy. It's, you can't like it can't not be, you know, like, one of my dear, my first assistants was a doula. She's like, birth is really messy. Pav Lertjitbanjong 6:48  Yeah. But, you know, I think, like, once you focus on something, and then you surrender to God, he will lead the way. That's what I've that I've believed in. So, you know, with my with my divorce, in order for me to get them to get a divorce, the first step, my lawyer said, Okay, you need to get your baseline ready. You need to do budgeting. And I'm like, okay, with an MBA in finance, I didn't know how to do budgeting, which was like, so crazy. And I'll tell you this, like with Layoff Ready, I have worked with some of the clients that are, like, higher up in corporate, and they are the same, I think, like, the higher up you are, you rely so much on like, so called experts to help with your personal life, life, right? Like, because you are so good at what you do, so you don't really, yeah, you you neglect what you need to do for yourself, because you just totally trust experts. And that's kind of how I've always been. So I had to start from the ground up in terms of, okay, like, what exactly is my net worth without my husband or ex husband now? And it took me six months Lesley, not because it was hard in the sense that, like, oh, all the calculation, because I'm like, a number person anyway, but the six months to actually feel the feelings, right? Like, really, gather all the documents and really, okay, this is it. You know, once I submit that paperwork, once I file this, then that's the beginning of the new life unknown.Lesley Logan 8:20  Thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of people don't do things because it really does mean by finishing it, it marks the end, like, that's the end of that, you know, like, whether it's a person who's passed away or a pet that's passed away, like, dealing with the their toys and the dog beds, whatever it is, like, once it's gone, it's like, well, they're really gone. Like, there's not even a sign of them around here. So like going through and figuring it out, like I can see why you would want to take six months, not because the numbers are hard, but because it's hard. It's just hard. Yeah.Pav Lertjitbanjong 8:49  Exactly, Lesley. And I mean, when you talk about pets, you know, I've been through that same situation too, and I am a procrastinator, and that's my new year resolution, which I'm kind of, like slowly getting there. Same thing, like, when, when my two, my two rabbits died from that marriage, you know, they came with me. It also took me six months to, like, clean up everything.Lesley Logan 9:12  Yeah, because it was, like, the last, you know, like the last thing of that, yeah. Well, so, okay, so during the six months, did you do anything to kind of help yourself out? Did you go did you stay home and, like, wallow? Did you go out? Like, how did you, like, take care of yourself and get to know yourself? Was there anything, any Be It Action Items that you did in there? Pav Lertjitbanjong 9:32  Oh my gosh, okay. Like, shamelessly saying, I did absolutely nothing, just like, wallowing, you know, being in, like, my shoe box apartment in New York City, because at the time, I already moved out of my my house, and I didn't really have much in savings at the time, because basically, when you're married, then, you know, things are kind of commingled in a way. So not so much. You know, that was probably one of the darkest time of my life. And you know, back to like what I did, and what did I learn from that, from from like, the whole process was that the power of budgeting that's so important. And let me just tell you this, Lesley, so after that six months, I decided, okay, like, I need to do something. I I'm gonna file that paper and get that budgeting done. Took me one day. Lesley Logan 10:20  Right. Pav Lertjitbanjong 10:21  One day. Lesley Logan 10:22  Right, I know it's really funny, isn't it so funny? Like, I think we can all, like, see ourselves in this I'm like, oh my god, I gotta write that email, or I gotta go to that thing. I gotta go, and then you go it was like, 17 minutes at the DMV that wasn't even that part. Like, it just feels so heavy. Yes, I understand. I understand. Pav Lertjitbanjong 10:38  Yeah. So it took me one day of focus work to get that going and everything. And to my surprise, when, like, back to when we're talking about, like, you know, when we surrender to God, God actually, like, help pave the way for you and I found almost half a million dollars in a hidden 401k account. Lesley Logan 10:59  That's half a million dollars? Pav Lertjitbanjong 11:01  Almost, close to, yeah. Lesley Logan 11:02  Oh my god. Pav Lertjitbanjong 11:04  So when you talk about save it and you forget it, I literally forgotten that. And no joke, like, serious, and.Lesley Logan 11:13  That's, Pav, that's insane. So, like, here you were, like, broke as a joke on a tiny apartment. Procrastinate. I just want to, like, reiterate this so that people, like, stop procrastinating, procrastinating and wallowing all these things. Then you do the paperwork and you have a half a million dollars.Pav Lertjitbanjong 11:30  Yes, close enough. So, so yeah, like, my life literally just kind of changed overnight, you know, with that one power of budgeting. Lesley Logan 11:39  And by then you'd learn how to budget. So that's great. So probably best, probably best. You had to learn how to budget first.Pav Lertjitbanjong 11:46  Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So that was basically like my moment that, you know, my whole life, Lesley, like okay as a woman, and actually not all women, but maybe like the way that I was raised, I always thought that, okay, the only way for me to become a millionaire, to become financially free, I need security of a man to help me.Lesley Logan 12:10  Oh, you're, I mean, I think, first of all, so in the States, women couldn't get their own credit card until, like, their 80s, 1980s right? So, like, like, in my lifetime, right? And I think I can't remember when women were allowed to buy their own homes, but at any the reason why, like, people are always like, oh, there's so much divorce now there's, no, women couldn't leave shitty shit because they couldn't own a home, they couldn't often find work, and they certainly couldn't have a credit card. So like, yeah, Pav, like, we're of the age where, like my mom, like her mom, couldn't, didn't have a credit card when she was of her own right. So my mom is the first person in my family that could have her own money. So I think a lot of us have that, that we're not raised with that. And so what you see around you, because that first generation above you, they all had to go through that. That's how they were raised. So it's completely normal to think that. And I think what's really cool is we've now had 40 something years of it. So it can change where we we all can be billionaires, and then we can marry someone, whether it's a man or woman who also is a millionaire, and then we can have more money that we can do good things with.Pav Lertjitbanjong 13:13  Yes, the more the merrier, Lesley, yeah, and I think, like to your point, basically, I think what went through with my life, even though I suffer for a long period of time, I felt that it actually was proud of myself that I was able to help, like, break the generational curse, you know, because that were, like, what you talked about, you know, like there were women that didn't really have those opportunities.Lesley Logan 13:40  No, and they weren't loved either, like, not for who they were, yeah, my gosh, Pav. So you get to this place where, like, oh my gosh. Now you're not devastated. I mean, you're devastated from the divorce emotionally, but you're not devastated financially. You have, you have a jumping off point. So can we, can we jump ahead to like, how do you go from like, okay, I am now I'm gonna go now I have a half million dollars. It's not enough to like, retire off of today. But how do you go from that to like, I'm gonna help people be layoff ready? Because one of the things that, like, I feel is so topical. We talked about this before I hit record, it's like, there's a lot of people being laid off right now, and with AI, which has its own devastating effects and also great things. We use AI all the time, like, there's going to be more. And so I think, like, you know, in case, in case, someone can't just randomly find an old 401K they forgot about, how do we prepare them?Pav Lertjitbanjong 14:33  Yeah, okay, so you have asked so many amazing questions. So like, let me break it down. So like, number one you were asking about, like, okay, how did they kind of jump start from like, okay, that's aha, moment that okay, finally, it can be my own rich man, or at least the starting point until, like, okay, helping people, right? So I think, like, ever since then, I realized that okay, now I can be my own rich man, that I cannot rely on the security of a man to. Lesley Logan 15:00  No, you don't have to. Pav Lertjitbanjong 15:00  For anything, right? Even though, like, okay, great, we, we would love to find my soulmate. I mean, our soulmate, and I'd love to have a rich husband again, but you're not better version. But, yeah. But I think ever since then, I realized the power of financial literacy and, you know, really becoming my own person, because I always had low self-esteem, Lesley, you know, I think it's just kind of like what we talk about, the general generational curse. So anyway, since then, I started, like, okay, studying investing, personal finance, you know, make sure that okay. Like, by the way, I don't think that I dropped that bomb on you yet. But I also, like, with that marriage, I had about $100,000 debt. So with the money that I found, even though I had the 401K, you cannot liquidate the whole thing, right? Because you pay so much taxes. Lesley Logan 15:52  There's rules. Pav Lertjitbanjong 15:53  Yeah, exactly. Like, like, it's your money, but it's not your money. Lesley Logan 15:58  Right, right, right, right. Pav Lertjitbanjong 15:59  Yeah. So okay, so I had to find a way to, like, supplement that. How can I make more money? So, like, one is okay, I already have a corporate job. It's good paying, but obviously it didn't really help fund my entire lifestyle because, like, I used to live large, but now on my own, I need to, like, okay, number one, downsize my life a little bit more. You know, like, I can't really go to, like, three Michelin star on a Friday, you know, if I want to, these days, you know, something that you have to, like, really plan on. And then, let me forewarn you, it doesn't apply to everyone, but for me, I actually strategically leverage debt to help me pay debt.Lesley Logan 16:38  Yeah, heck yeah, girl, are you, I haven't had one come in the mail, but I definitely when I was like, getting out of homelessness and getting back on my feet, I was like, oh, this card will let me be interest-free for 18 months. Heck yeah. We're taking this card move all this debt over, so now I'm actually paying it off, and now I have 18 months to pay this off. Yes, yes, I hear you. I, there's, but there, because there is better, there is better debt out there. Yes, for sure.Pav Lertjitbanjong 17:06  Exactly, yeah. So free money. So one thing led to another, I was and then Covid happened. You know when people talk about and okay, like, let me just be clear, Covid totally suck. Like, that should not happen, but for me, I was lucky, in a sense that okay, during Covid, you know, I got to work from home. You know, as a tech worker, you get to work from home, and I had a little bit time, you know, like during, like, early hour, because I work West Coast hour before to really do a little bit of day trading, you know, like, maybe the first two, three hours after the market stopped before I actually work my real job, and I got lucky, I was able to buy at the lowest, probably, and it kind of bounced from there.Lesley Logan 17:52  Yeah, that's what you're I mean, like, when everything was going crazy recently and going low, like our neighbors like this, I'm like, I'm not even looking. I'm literally giving them more money. I'm gonna give my people more money to go play in the other places that it's gonna be good. Like, obviously, to avoid these but, like, we'd be smart about it. But like, this is how people got rich in the Depression. You gotta buy when it's low and during those Covid times, good for you. You know what I'm hearing from you Pav is, like, you're not afraid to do something that is a little scary, and you're not waiting for someone to tell you it's okay. Like, that's pretty badass.Pav Lertjitbanjong 18:27  I've not always been that way, Lesley, but thank you. It's an honor hearing that from you. Lesley Logan 18:33  Well, I mean, clearly the, maybe it's the divorce that, like, made made you that way. You know what I mean? Because I think sometimes we go through hard things, we're like, whoa. Like you develop a skill set because you need to, you know, so, like, I think that's really cool. Pav Lertjitbanjong 18:45  Thank you. Yeah, and I think, like, the most important things, actually two things that I was able to gain from the divorce, not just, like, the money part, which that is great, right? Like, with investing, one thing led to another. I was able to, like, you know, make a lot more money from there. And by the way, I got a promotion after, you know, when I decided, okay, like, I need to make more. You know, the Power Focus is when you focusing on something like it actually happened, because God was just like, make sure that he orchestrate everything for you.Lesley Logan 19:17  Well, also you're putting yourself out there, and you and you said the right words, focus. I think a lot of people go, I don't have this, as opposed to, where can I get this? You know, like, you're like, I need to make more money. What's in front of me? And so I think that that's a really important distinction, because a lot of people like, I have no money, and they sit around going wallowing, I don't have any money, I'm having and they're like, look, there are days for crying, like you are going through a divorce, there's a few. You should have a few fuck, fucking crying days on the floor. But then you have to, like, get up and go, okay, what do I want? What can I do with what I have? And so I love the like, I'm gonna put in for a promotion. Like you don't get a promotion if you're not ready for it. Like no one's doing in corporate., as a woman, no, you had to earn that so, like, I mean, like, I'm sure there's not all corporations do that, but like, let's be real. Like, a lot of them, you have to prove that you are more than qualified for that job. So way to go.Pav Lertjitbanjong 20:12  Yeah, thank you. And by the way, to add on top of that, like, when you were talking about, if you don't ask, you don't receive. Like, that's so true, because, like, I had a co worker I came to and I asked her, like, hey, I want to put you on a promotion list, you know, as an endorser for this quarter. And she's like, oh, thank you. I really appreciate that. But, you know, I am like, I think I thought it was due to for promotion, like, last year. I'm like, well, have you ever asked for it? No. Like, if you never ask, you never get it. You don't get it.Lesley Logan 20:43  Oh that is, you know, it's unfortunate, but like, it's true, like, a lot of people get places because they just asked, you know, like, there's even just some opportunities that I have had because I just asked, not because I was qualified, you know, I mean, I had to be qualified enough. But, you know, like, sometimes it's just like, who, you know, so, or what, who, whom you ask. So, I love that. So, okay, so you got a promotion, you play the stock market, and then were you like, were you always thinking about, okay, I can't wait. Like, I want to retire from corporate early. Was that like the plan? How did, how did you go from like, getting promotion, working corporate and day trading, to going, okay, I'm gonna help people prepare their lives for a big change, like a change outside their control, because that's what Layoff Ready is. It's like you're ready if a change outside of your control happens.Pav Lertjitbanjong 21:32  Right. Yeah, Lesley, and that's such a great question, and to be honest with you, like I've always had in my mind that I want to retire early, because ever since I was young, I always knew that, like, this is not it, like my life should not be in PowerPoint and, you know, be a corporate robot. And even though, like, let me just tell you, I know, like some people talk about, like, burnout, or, you know, like, how they've been treated badly by their companies, I feel very fortunate, like my career so far in general, that I have been treated very well for the most part, and I'm really, really, really grateful for that. But I think I've always, like, had that goal that I wanted to be able to retire, like, before 45 or like 50, you know, and really do my own thing and live my life. But let me just tell you I never had that courage, too. So when you told me about, like, hey, Pav, you're a badass, you know, thank you. I can confidently say that yes, Lesley, today's Pav says yes, I am a badass. But like, maybe, like, two months ago Pav, or maybe, like, whatever, you know, 40 years old Pav will not be that. Lesley Logan 22:38  I think it takes time to realize, like somebody in one of our communities, just like, mentioned, like, something happened that four years ago, right? And I was like, and it's so easy to go, oh my god, it's been four years, like, as a long time, and then it's like, it's only been four years, like, I can't believe how, like, what you've done in like, such a short time. So, like, it's, of course, like you recognizing your boldness and your badassery, like, in the last couple of months versus three years, like, there's, I don't think that's even you don't have to just, you can act that's fine. That's exactly when you found it, you discovered it. And I think that's important because, like, there's going to be days we don't feel like that. But also we have to look back and go, whoa look what I did in such a short period of time, you know, like, a short period of time, like, that's kind of a lot of growth. So let's talk about Layoff Ready a little bit, because I think a lot of people think it won't happen to them. Oh, it's gonna happen to that person, but I'm really great at my job, or I'm, you know what I mean, like, I'm really excellent at this. Like, what are some things people need to be thinking about, or just, like, reviewing, you know, because it's gonna take them a couple weeks that they should be looking into to make sure that they're layoff ready. Like, what are some signs, or what are some actions? Pav Lertjitbanjong 23:47  Yeah, so first, and thank you for asking Lesley. So Layoff Ready is a freedom-based financial preparation. So it's not just like, oh, you know, like, hey, this is like, your investment advisor telling you to like, okay, this is how you allocate your your investment so on, right? But this is more about like, how can you really design a life that you really want to live in, you know? So to to decide a life that give you the option for freedom if you want to, it's not about like, hey, you know, tomorrow, or everybody goes and go into the office and like, hey, I want to quit my job because I'm layoff ready? Some people, maybe you really love the job that you're doing. But you know, like, what you touch on is, with this economy, is your job really safe? Not really, with AI rising, I don't think that anybody is safe, right? Like, for God's sake, people been talking about what like by 2032 we may not even like have jobs the way that we see it.Lesley Logan 24:47  Oh yeah, I think, and that's 2032 that is, that is a very short time away. It is seven years like I'm an optimistic person most of the time, and when I think about what AI is going to do, I. I think about like, it's not going to be great for everybody. It's going to be great for those who can use it. It's not going to be great for everybody. So I do think that like preparing ourselves to understand, like, what, what is a life we want to live. And I love that, like going through that so that no matter if you choose it or it chooses you, you can be, you can be, you know, you'll still cry, but you can have a next step.Pav Lertjitbanjong 25:24  Exactly, yeah, and I think, like, you know, it's also beyond, like, the financial preparedness or the career preparedness, but like, the emotional clarity and preparedness that comes with that, right? Like, basically, it gives you an option to be able to walk away from a situation or a job or even like people, or like, in my case, like a marriage that no longer align with with you, with your goal in life. And so for me, I think layoff ready, layoff proofing your life is about like, you know, being like, strategically creating options for yourself so you never feel stuck. Like, you don't wait for security, you create it, and you build the skills and the incomes before you need them. And you also, like, you know, help you stay adaptable, knowing that job security is an illusion, but the career resilience is real, and that's what I think is so critical these days.Lesley Logan 26:20  So many takeaways. But like, we don't wait for security. We create security like that, that is key, Pav, that is like, I think a lot of people have a false security with their gigs, with their jobs, you know. And I think also, you know, the way the world works, it gives them that false security. Like took my husband and I over two years to prove to the powers that be that we could afford a home, because we don't work for anybody but ourselves. Never mind that ourselves have made more money year after year. You know, like every tax season, you can see that where our company is growing, they're like, oh, but you work for yourself. No, that's not trustworthy. Well, I'm not gonna fire me. So like, feels pretty secure, if you ask me. But like, I think it's like creating that security and creating the things around your life. You know, when we were talking about Covid, like, which was terrible, yes, yes, yes. But let's talk about this. The good thing is that came as a lot of people evaluated what they were doing and what they wanted and what they needed, because they were laid off, you know, they were forced to do it in a way. But like with what you're doing with people now is like actually helping them decide it ahead of times they have to leave, right? Like they're not, you're not necessarily encouraging them to leave, but you're just helping them create the ability to have a decision.Pav Lertjitbanjong 27:40  Exactly, yeah, and, and I also think that when you layoff-proof your life, it not like, not only it just gives you options, but it actually gives you peace of mind as well. And I think, like, in this day and age, especially at our age now, it's, it's the most important. I think, like, it's like, way more important, even beyond, like, money or success.Lesley Logan 28:03  Yeah, yeah, no. I mean, I agree. Like, you know, they say, like, we have six, there's six needs we all have universally. So certainty is one of them. And like, we all crave it, right? Like, craving that certainty, like, the job is going to be there, the money is going to be there. But we also crave uncertainty. We want things to change, right? But what you're talking about and what you've promoted yourself to doing you retired from corporate to do this with people is like, help them be able to make a decision for themselves and have certainty around it.Pav Lertjitbanjong 28:40  Right, yeah. And I think one, one important thing too, Lesley, that I feel like we have been lied to, is I don't think that we need that much in life in general, like in this capitalism society, like, do we need, like, you know, 10 handbags or.Lesley Logan 28:57  Well, I do, but some people don't.Pav Lertjitbanjong 29:01  More power to you. More power to you.Lesley Logan 29:04  But I, but I do agree, like, it is interesting. Like, I actually believe in a healthy capitalism, right? Like, I actually think, like, Netherlands is really great. Like, I want to live there. They have a community-based capitalism. I'm in. But I do think that you're right that, like, there's a lot of lies, that the more stuff we have, the more rich we are. When really, like, I'm looking at a very full closet and like, when was the last time we opened this closet door? Like, when do we use these things? And so I think that there is something about what you're saying is like, we can layoff-proof of our life by just evaluating, like, are we living a life that we actually want or are we living one that we we're lied to about. Pav Lertjitbanjong 29:44  Right. Exactly. I think, like my point on.Lesley Logan 29:47  I'm sorry, I cut you off because I, because people know I have a lot of handbags.Pav Lertjitbanjong 29:51  Trust me, me too, like I used to work so close to Fifth Avenue, so totally understand, and that's why I never had savings when I was younger. Anyway, but, yeah, like, basically, you don't need millions to retire early if you want to. There are different types of retirement, or, like, we call it like a FIRE, right? The FIRE movement, Financial Independence Retire Early movement. So there are different types of FIRE that allows you to retire early. Like some people, for example, can, you know, retire with, like, a super tight budget. Some people retire with big budget, with what? So what that means they need to make more money, and they need to invest more and they need longer time to invest, right? Or some people, they call it like a barista FIRE. So for barista FIRE is more on you you basically you retire, but if you still, like, keep a part time job that gives you benefits, and, you know, like, still earn.Lesley Logan 30:45  Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's like, my dad, because he can't sit still. Can't do it.Pav Lertjitbanjong 30:51  I mean, whatever works for, you know, for for him, or, like, for each person is totally different. But yeah, like, I before I retire, and I would say, like, now I'm more, like, you know, kind of in a way, like a same might retired, because obviously, like, I don't think that we can actually, like, sit still and just, okay, like, today I'm just gonna go to the beach and do nothing, even though it's so cool, but you get bored, right? But, but, yeah, like, you can live with so much less, and you don't need millions of dollars to retire. I think that's what I I've learned from that, and how I came to that realization, though, Lesley is because of the numbers. So, you know, like, when you were talking about, like, how can people prepare to, like, layoff-proof their lives? How can people prepare to like, you know, if they want option to retire early? Like, what's the first step to get there? I would say, know your numbers. So there are only three numbers that you need to know that is so important, like, one is your net worth, assets, minus liability. The second one, I call it FU funds. People have different definition of that, but my FU fund is more like an emergency fund. You know, when you talk to experts, because sometimes people say, okay, like three to six months. I don't think it's enough these days with inflation, right? You need, like, Yeah, six, twelve months. So, basically, exactly. So that's the money that you can kind of walk out if from any situation, if you want to, it's kind of like, okay, if you I go by kind of situation. And then the last one is the one we discussed, like, on the fire, like, how much money you need to invest in in the market in order for you to, like, take a smaller amount in, on average, I think it's about 4% that you can take safely from your investment, so that you can live on and still have some money left to.Lesley Logan 32:34  Reinvest if that that's working for you. I that's great. I think that makes it so easy. Because I think a lot of people think like, oh, gotta think about my retirement. I gotta think about my life. Oh, I got laid off crap. And it's like, if you only have to focus on three numbers, it makes it really simple. And I love this idea of, like, barista fire. These are fun. These are really great. Pav, who are you most excited to work with? Like, who do you want to like, are you do do like, who is it that you're wanting to make sure that you help people like, Layoff Ready?Pav Lertjitbanjong 33:08  So I typically work with more, like a high achiever, people in corporate but I think the most I would say, like underserved market is women, right? Like, women, especially a little bit older, like, 40 plus years old that has been in corporate for a while, and are more prone to be laid off. I think these are the demographic that I'm like, so excited to work with, because essentially, that's kind of like me, in a way. You know, I think when we pursue our, like, real, true passion project, or like I call like God's given purpose, you actually are serving the people that. How do I say that? Like your younger self, in a way, basically.Lesley Logan 33:54  Totally, everyone who listens to this podcast is, was me. Maybe there may be there different ages of the my younger version of but yes, we are all with we're the best. We are best able to serve the people we once were. So I love this. Pav, this is so exciting. We're gonna take a brief break. Find out how people can find you, follow you and work with you.Pav Lertjitbanjong 34:14  Yes, so you can find me on Tiktok at momentsofreset, M-O-M-E-N-T of reset, or layoffready.com. Lesley Logan 34:22  layoffready.com Yeah, I can't believe that wasn't, good for you, that was waiting for you momentsofreset and layoffready.com. All right, Pav, what bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps do you have for us to take away from this episode? Pav Lertjitbanjong 34:36  Okay. So bold doesn't have to be loud, but it has to be true. The life that you want is not built at once. So it's built in the micro moment of honesty to yourself, so until one day the outside world catches up, and you know, you just be it to till you see it, and people will see it too.Lesley Logan 34:57  Oh, that is so beautiful. That is actually so true, those micro moments of you being honest and you're that's so wise, Pav, and then the world catches up with you. I love, instead of us. I love that. I love that so much. Pav Lertjitbanjong 35:11  Thank you. Thank you. Lesley Logan 35:15  I, well, this is so fun, because it's not like I don't always have people who've been listening to show for a long time move and slowly being it till they see it on the show. Like it's just not something that happens very often. And so it's just so cool to hear the full circle. And for for everyone to hear the full circle of you going through the life that you went through, doing the hard thing, you know? And now you've got something that can help other people do it too. I mean, like, that's just beautiful.Pav Lertjitbanjong 35:42  Yeah. And thank you so much, Lesley, for I think, like, the work that you have done actually has not just only helped me, but I'm sure, like, it has helped thousands, if not millions, of people. You are doing God's work. So I think, like, I wish that that would be more of you. So thank you so much for all you have done. Thank you.Lesley Logan 36:01  Oh, Pav, I can't, you're the last thing in my day today, and I've never received that. I'm going to take it with me on a vacation. I'm so, so grateful. You know, if we all give ourselves the credit that we would give other people, right, we would realize that, like, we actually are doing great jobs, and it's just hard. It's just hard because you don't see all the efforting that's happening. You don't see all the people whose lives, but even you, Pav, saying thank you. And also you're going to give so many people permission on this show, you know whether or not they call you to be Layoff Ready but maybe they actually just go, oh, wait. I can actually just fill out that paper. It's gonna take one day or, oh, I actually need to sit down and think about, like, what do I want? What does wealth mean to me? Like, I think that it's just so cool, and you've just given some great things. So now you're on your way to impact more and more people in the world and it's going to be a better place because of people like you and people like me and people who are listening to this podcast. You know, people listening to this podcast, you guys are amazing people, cheerleading people all the time. And I say this to the people I coach you are the only person who can do what you do the way that you do it. You are it. And so don't be quiet. Don't be soft. Don't hide your magic, because there's people who are literally waiting for you. You know you're the only one. So, Pav, thank you for stepping out and creating Layoff Ready. I'm super excited for what you're doing and for the people who are gonna experience it. And everyone, share this with a friend who needs to hear it, someone who needs to hear a journey that someone's been on, someone who needs to hear that there is ways to prepare themselves. So no matter what happens, they're ready for it and but they even they can be like a barista fire. That's so cool. Didn't even know that. So Pav, thank you so much. And until next time everyone, Be It Till You See It.Lesley Logan 37:42  Hey, be it babe. So what  I love so much about the guests that we bring on is that they continue to research what they are experts in and dive in deeper. And when they find new ways of helping people, they always reach out and let us know. And Pav has been doing a ton of research and science around. How to make decisions under pressure and what your nervous system is going through, and different things like that. So if you are working in the leadership experience or you're trying to dive more into that, or you have, you notice you're having a hard time making decisions. She's also coaching and advising people in that capacity. So if you enjoyed her energy and  her way of thinking about this topic, you're gonna love what she's doing over there.  Lesley Logan 37:43  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 38:26  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 38:30  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 38:35  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 38:42  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 38:45  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Lesley Logan reflects on the overlooked brilliance of Hedy Lamarr and why creating, learning, and showing up still matters even when recognition never comes. She also celebrates a powerful community win built on consistency, shares how planned boredom helped her truly rest after the tour, and offers a reminder that refilling your cup is not indulgent—it’s necessary. This episode invites you to rethink success, honor your wins, and protect the spaces that help you keep going.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:How Hedy Lamarr followed solved problems without real recognition.Using Wunda Chair flashcards daily rebuilt strength through repetition.How Lesley planned rest after tour and honored the need to recharge.The importance of self-respect and maintaining clean shared spaces.Episode References/Links:Hedy Lamarr - https://www.instagram.com/p/DQVbH1CiK5aLove of Three Queens - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045499Submit your wins or questions - https://beitpod.com/questions If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentCheck out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper’s Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentBe in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlistBe It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-surveyBe a part of Lesley’s Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gLesley Logan website https://lesleylogan.co/Be It Till You See It Podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjogqXLnfyhS5VlU4rdzlnQProfitable Pilates https://profitablepilates.com/about/Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesley.logan/The Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gFacebook https://www.facebook.com/llogan.pilatesLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-logan/The OPC YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@OnlinePilatesClasses Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  It's Fuck Yeah Friday. Brad Crowell 0:01  Fuck yeah. Lesley Logan 0:02  Get ready for some wins. Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. Lesley Logan 0:47  Hey, Be It babe, happy January 16. Fuck yeah, Friday. Oh my god, we made it. We're here. We've got wins to share. We've got inspo to share. We've got an affirmation to mull over. We are ready to kick off your weekend. Do you remember like the TGIF? Oh my god, I lived for TGIF. I lived for the Full House. A step by step. I could still sing the songs in my head, not out loud, you know. And you're like, I know the words, but like, I can only hear them in my head, and not out loud. Gosh. Then there was Family Matters. Loved Family Matters. And then there was a fourth show. I feel like I didn't love the fourth show in those two hours, but anyways, so freaking great every Friday, and that's what this episode really is to be. It's like a TGIF. Who knows? Maybe that's what it becomes. Lesley Logan 1:26  Anyways, still want to celebrate your wins, because I want you to with all that ish that goes on. You are still making magic happen. Sometimes that magic feels really small, sometimes it feels really big, and we have to celebrate all of them. Okay, so this inspired me. Oh, my God, this it's from her wiki org in 1937 a 23-year-old woman fleeing her Nazi arms dealer husband, Friedrich Mandel boarded a train to London at that moment, no one could have foreseen that within just five years, she would develop war technology that would revolutionize the lives of billions of people, both living and yet to be born. That woman was Hedy Lamarr. According to the prevailing patriarchy, Hedy Lamarr wasn't supposed to be an inventor. She was the most beautiful woman in the world, a Hollywood icon. She's stunning, you guys like, gosh, her brows, her lashes, like everything. And her job was to entertain the men of her time. But behind the glamor, she was something else, a scientific genius, and she's about to change the world forever. Born in Austria in 1914, Hedy was a child prodigy. She took apart machines for fun. She could reassemble a music box at five. By her teen, she was obsessed with engineering and physics, but her life took a different turn. At 19, she married a powerful arms dealer, a man who sold weapons to Hitler. She sat through meetings with military scientists. She listened, took notes, learned everything, and realized the kind of man she married. She ran. She escaped Austria, disguised as a maid. She fled to Paris, then London, then Hollywood. She reinvented herself as a movie star, but while the world saw a glamorous actress behind closed doors, she was designing war technology. In World War Two, Hedy learned that the Nazi submarines were sinking ships. Torpedoes were guided by radio signals. But there was a problem, enemies could jam the signal and send torpedoes off course, she had an idea. She designed a secret communication system, one that could jump between radio frequencies, making it impossible for enemies to block. She partnered with a composer to create it using piano rolls as a model for frequency hopping. It was brilliant. In 1942 she patented the invention. She took it to the US Navy, and what did they say? Go entertain the troops sweetheart, or try selling war bonds. They ignored her, filed her work away, never used it. Decades later, her invention was rediscovered, and it became the foundation of Wi Fi, Bluetooth and GPS. Her ideas, her idea powers the entire modern world and the very same devices and technology men use to slander women and spread their misogynistic views. And she got nothing for it.Lesley Logan 3:53  There is some beautiful pictures of her doing stuff with the war you guys. It's worth looking at the post. She never made a single dollar from her patent, but by the time the world realized what she had done, she was old, broke and forgotten. The men who used her invention, well, they made millions. They also sidelined her from Hollywood, which forced her to go to Italy and pursue film production there. She invested all of her life savings to produce Love of Three Queens in which she also played multiple roles. What a cool woman. It was originally supposed to be a series of 39 half hour plays, but about the love affairs of famous women throughout history, but later pivoted to a full a film with only three of the original plays. The film was a massive flop, and Hedy ended up losing her entire life savings, which totaled to millions of dollars, and went back to America right after Hedy Lamarr died on January 19th, 2000 she wasn't just a Hollywood star. She was a brilliant scientist who never got credit, a woman whose genius was buried under her beauty. She changed the world, but history only remembers her face and even that very vaguely. So, Hedy Lamarr, genius, inventor, actress, the woman, the myth, the legend. I really am obsessed with that information. Do you feel like? I don't know? Like, the more you learn, the more you're like, wow. they just try to keep information from me. You know? They try to tell us different stories about history. They tried to make it seem like this happened, when this happened, or it's just all marketing, right? And I love that she just kept going. And I am sad that she died in the way that she did, but I really do love that she that she was a curious human and that she was thinking about ways to solve problems. And I loved her ballsiness that even, like, even at that time, I'm sure she knew they weren't going to listen to her, but she did it anyways. And I just think that, like sometimes we can get obsessed with a project we're working on and think, Well, I failed because it didn't work, it didn't sell, but you became someone along the way of working on that thing that didn't work in the way you wanted, and she didn't get the credit that she deserved. But all of us have more opportunities because of her, and so because of her, we should keep going. We should keep going. We should keep taking things on. We should keep challenging ourselves. We should keep learning. We can get kicked down, and we should get back up again and try again and not and most things won't be a success. Lesley Logan 6:08  Okay. I saw something I don't think I saved it to share with you, but it was just like, just the percentage of balls that, like, weren't home runs that Babe Ruth did, and just the percentage of like, flops this person had versus like, how many awards they had. And we tend to only think about and celebrate like the Oscar win, but we don't like we don't go, oh my god, they only have one Oscar win, and they've done 300 movies. We never do that. So because we never do that for other people, we shouldn't do that for ourselves. We must celebrate some wins. So you can send your wins in to beitpod.com/questions beitpod.com/questions and that's where wins go as well, and where our team will mark it as a question or a win, if it's a question we'll answer on Thursdays, if it's when we'll celebrate you here. And so our win today is from Miss Jordan Bebee and her win is big win this week. I have neglected using my Wunda Chair for quite a while now, so I decided it was time to break out my Wunda Chair flash cards. I started working through the order with whatever bits of time I had available each day, starting from the top of the deck each day to get the repetition. Whoa, that's so fun. By the time I got into my second week, I started feeling connected to my body that the week previous, I couldn't have dreamed of. Exercises that felt impossible to move were actually moving. But even better, I felt more connected to myself. Super excited to add my Chair back into my regular rotation. Thanks, LL, for the amazing flash cards. What a freaking cool way to do that. I am just so obsessed with how you all figure out ways to use these Chair cards and like, what a win you have. Like, I like, you're like, Okay, this is the start of the deck, and the chair has no order, so you just do whatever. And you go, like, went through and you started at the beginning. I love that. And you just were like, okay, I ran out of time. Oh, I have time for adding more cards. And the thing is, is that as you use them more, you have more time, you know, you can do more exercises in the same amount of time, because you start to remember what the card was and the exercise was. And of course, you're having more connections because it's consistency. And your body wants to move. Your body wants to move. A body motion says, Jordan, I'm obsessed with you, and this win. Thank you so much for letting us celebrate with you. Lesley Logan 8:08  All right, my win. So I'm home, I'm home for a while, and no, my win so my win is I'm home, but my my win is I actually took a wonderful vacation Brad and I did in Palm Springs. It's kind of a tradition after the tour, I guess we could take a vacation anywhere. But Palm Springs is really fun because you can lay by the pool, like, just and it's so fun you guys just to get so bored. Like, I bring out two or three books that way, if I get bored of one book, I have another book, and I just lay under a cabana. I'm not even out in the sun. I'm just like, outside near pool. I don't even sometimes get in the pool. I just, like, lay out there and, you know, order food and drink and just lay until I'm so bored that I'm like, okay, we should go into town and do something. Like, we should go do that. Ah, it's the best. Was the best. And so, you know, it's, it's interesting. Like, sometimes it's hard to like, rest and relax when, like, there's just so much going on that you think that you should be doing something. And the reality is, is like, we are no good to anyone tired. We are no good to any effort, tired and exhausted. And so I'm just really grateful. The other thing that I will share, like, I plan these things in advance. It's very helpful, because I'm someone like, have you ever, like, said yes to something two months in advance, and it gets here you're like, oh, why did I say yes to that? Because your, your past self knew you needed it, and the reason you're tired and don't want to go is because you you need to go do the thing that will refill your cup. At the party or the, you know, the dinner with the friend or the spa date or the massage, like your past self knew your future self needed it. And so I typically lean into that, because it's like, well, it's two months ago. I thought this was gonna be a really good idea. So let's just see what happens. I can always leave, right? So anyways, we just use those amazing points. That's why you have them, and just took some time and that, that's just the win I have. So see how a win can just be sitting down and getting bored. I want that for you, too. I want that for you. So let us know if you did. Send your wins in to beitpod.com/questions. Lesley Logan 10:11  All right. Um, I this is your affirmation, and then you can take on your amazing weekend. Go kick some ass. I deserve self-respect and a clean space. I deserve self-respect and a clean space. I deserve self-respect and a clean space, and I just want to take that clean space. Please don't be the person who's always cleaning your space, okay? Other people have to respect the space that you probably cleaned already and then they dirtied. So a clean space doesn't mean you clean your desk and then you get your work done. Nope, nope, nope. That's procrastination towards perfection. No, meaning that like people, you deserve self-respect, and people deserve to keep like your area around you that you did so well attending to make sure that they don't get to piss on it. So, demand it and delegate. And people can do they they'll do it differently than you, but they can still do it so that you can be you and not be busying cleaning up after all these other people. So, love you all so much. Until next time, Be It Till you see it. Send this to a friend who needs to hear it, please. It helps this podcast grow. I it would be the best thing you could do, my birthday is in a couple of weeks and if you want to get me something, it would be sharing our podcast or leaving a review or doing both. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day.Lesley Logan 11:24  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod. Brad Crowell 12:05  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell. Lesley Logan 12:11  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 12:16  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi. Lesley Logan 12:22  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 12:26  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This recap episode reflects on the soulful conversation with tarot reader and spiritual mentor Frances Naudé, unpacking why tarot is best understood as a self-reflection tool. Brad and Lesley explore how intuition is often quiet, subtle, and easy to overlook, and how tarot can act as a structured way to pause, journal, and build self-trust. This grounded discussion invites listeners to see intuition as a daily practice—one that supports clearer decisions and more aligned action over time.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:Tarot as guided self-reflection rather than fortune telling.How intuition shows up quietly and builds through daily repetition.Using tarot cards as structured prompts for journaling and self-awareness.How tarot shifted from a self-reflection tool to feared over time.Training intuitive trust through small, low-stakes daily decisions.Episode References/Links:Cambodia Retreat Waitlist - https://crowsnestretreats.comAgency Mini - https://prfit.biz/miniContrology Pilates Conference in Poland - https://xxll.co/polandContrology Pilates Conference in Brussels - https://xxll.co/brusselsPilates on Tour in London - https://xxll.co/potSubmit your wins or questions - https://beitpod.com/questions Online Pilates Classes - https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/youtubeFrances Naude's Website - https://www.francesnaude.comFrances Naude's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@francesnaudeFree Intro to Tarot Online Course - https://beitpod.com/intrototarotEpisode 157: Kate Wind - https://beitpod.com/bitysiep157 If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentCheck out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper’s Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentBe in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlistBe It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-surveyBe a part of Lesley’s Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gLesley Logan website https://lesleylogan.co/Be It Till You See It Podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjogqXLnfyhS5VlU4rdzlnQProfitable Pilates https://profitablepilates.com/about/Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesley.logan/The Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gFacebook https://www.facebook.com/llogan.pilatesLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-logan/The OPC YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@OnlinePilatesClasses Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  There's another way to figure out what's going on inside you, and tarot doesn't actually tell you anything new. It echoes what you already know and maybe what you're ignoring. When you draw a card in tarot, the card has some sort of meaning. Lesley Logan 0:18  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Brad Crowell 1:02  Take it away. Lesley Logan 1:02  Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co-host in life are going to dig into the soulful, soulful, soulful. Brad Crowell 1:10  The soulful.Lesley Logan 1:11  The soulful convo I had with Frances Naudé in our last episode. If you haven't yet listened to that interview, feel free to pause this now and go back and listen to that one, and then come back to this. You guys, this is the episode that kicked off my hobby. This is the one.Brad Crowell 1:27  And as a bystander of said hobby, I am going to tell you, Lesley has been incredibly consistent with this hobby for, what, four or five months now? Six months? Lesley Logan 1:38  Well, when I interviewed her. Six months? Brad Crowell 1:40  I don't have any idea. Lesley Logan 1:41  From the time that this, they listen to this, and then the time I interviewed her, I think we're at six months, four months. At any rate, I went full in on it, like the ADHD woman that I am, where you buy all the things my life makes so much sense now that I know that that's part of ADHD. You just buy. Brad Crowell 1:58  July. Lesley Logan 1:58  July, right. Brad Crowell 1:59  July. Lesley Logan 2:00  So, and this is January, yeah. So I bought all the things that one would need to study, a tarot, three different study guides and a app. But unlike all the other things that I have tried out, I have still been using all of the things, yeah. And there's a deck in every room. You can draw a card at any time.Brad Crowell 2:19  And you're, you know, reading about it, writing notes and being consistent, it's been great.Lesley Logan 2:25  I really like it, and so by the time you listen to this, I will have started drawing a card for each day so that I can do self-reflection daily. Yeah. So anyways, there we are. But okay, Brad's like, I know. All right, so they don't know. Brad Crowell 2:40  They do not know what is today.Lesley Logan 2:42  Today is January 15th, 2026, and it's Wikipedia Day. Brad Crowell 2:47  Wikipedia Day. Lesley Logan 2:48  So, and just so you all know, you can start getting ready, because my birthday is coming up. It's not yet, but it's coming up January 15th isn't it? Well, they don't know.Brad Crowell 2:57  Just making sure that everyone else, that has nothing to do with Wikipedia Day, but Lesley is preparing for her birthday.Lesley Logan 3:03  If they're gonna send anything, the time is coming down, because it's 11 days away. Brad Crowell 3:07  If they're gonna send something, send it to Wikipedia instead. Lesley Logan 3:11  No. Brad Crowell 3:12  Yeah. Send money to Wikipedia instead.Lesley Logan 3:14  No. Send money to your local SPCA group, not the major one that does the sad commercials, you're local one, okay, or you can send it up to Nevada's, and in my name, they'll, they already know me. Lesley Logan 3:25  Okay, so January 15th is an occasion that celebrates the birth and formation of Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia. Almost every single person in the world knows what Wikipedia is. When we search for something, a Wikipedia link is the first thing that pops up on our search engines. Brad Crowell 3:40  More often than not. Lesley Logan 3:41  It is also a popular site since it provides in-depth information and presents everything in a user friendly way. I love Wikipedia because of like, who is that person married to? You can just go right to that part, like, it's like a here's the bullet points. Okay, in-depth information and presents everything in a user friendly way. So without further ado, let's dedicate this day to the information provider that has been feeding us with the knowledge since day one. Happy Wikipedia Day, and surprise, I should have a Wikipedia page now. It's been a multi year journey. I think how I don't know how long Brad has been working on this project to gather all the information and create this page. I'm really excited about it.Brad Crowell 4:17  It's because I wanted to create a Wikipedia page that we hired a press person. Lesley Logan 4:22  Years ago. Brad Crowell 4:23  Years ago. Lesley Logan 4:23  Yeah. And by the way, how long? Like, there's rules, like, not everyone could just have a Wikipedia.Brad Crowell 4:28  Yeah, no, it's, it's not, you can't just write a story and put it up there. Everything has to be validated and, you know, credible and linked to other things. It's, you know. Lesley Logan 4:28  Because, like, you can't just go. Brad Crowell 4:29  It's intentionally factual and historic.Lesley Logan 4:39  Like, Charlie next door just can't go, like, I'm gonna make a Wikipedia page for myself. Brad Crowell 4:47  I mean, he could, but then the moderators would take it down the next day. Lesley Logan 4:50  Right. Brad Crowell 4:51  Yeah. Lesley Logan 4:51  Right. Brad Crowell 4:53  Right. And, I mean, it's also, you know, you can actually go onto Wikipedia and make any change you want to any page on there. Surprise, you can do that. That, but then it will be reviewed and either changed back or corrected or updated or whatever, or again validated. So, you know, the pages that are constantly growing, it's because there's external like verification for the source of this new information that's being added. It's very intentional. And the reality is, we didn't have the links back, the backlinks, to be able to say, well, Lesley did this. Lesley did that, or whatever, whatever, whatever.Lesley Logan 5:31  Because you can't just go, I did these things. They have to go. Where is the proof? Somewhere else that someone else can validate. You know that you did those things. Brad Crowell 5:38  Exactly. Lesley Logan 5:38  Yeah. But I'm now old enough. Brad Crowell 5:39  Congratulations. Lesley Logan 5:39  I'm famous enough, yeah. And if you want to, you know, look, Wikipedia does a thing every December where they want money, because they actually are free for you to use. And they need, they do a money drive every year. So if you want to give them their money, they're a worthy cause, yeah.Brad Crowell 5:52  I mean, I think I give them $3.50 a month through PayPal. Lesley Logan 5:57  Oh, well, that's so fun. Brad Crowell 5:58  I've been doing it for years. Yeah. Because if everybody does every time they do their drive every year, they say, if everyone just gave $3 then we would have all our bills paid for, right? And I was like, well, I can do $3 a month. How about that? Yeah.Lesley Logan 6:12  That's so thoughtful. Anyways, Brad and I are driving back from Palm Springs today. Brad Crowell 6:12  Right now. Lesley Logan 6:12  We were on vacation. Yeah, we went on vacation, and we're driving, and it's beautiful. We're probably picking up more cactuses because there is a cactus shop on the way from Palm Springs. Well, at least the way we go from Palm Springs home. So we'll have to see which cactus where we don't have yet that we want more of. And then, right now, the early bird discount for the retreat that is this year is happening.,Brad Crowell 6:12  Yeah, for Cambodia. Pilates Retreat. Lesley Logan 6:18  So if you've got an email about it. You are one of the few people who got it, and there's way too many of you on the waitlist that we could take on this year's retreat. So you definitely want to snag your spot before they're all gone, before the discount ends. Brad Crowell 6:49  Yeah, and no lie, we've already had people sign up. We had, like, secret invitation to some people, and so some spots were already snagged, and then we're already halfway through the early bird, so definitely, if this has been something that's on your radar, do not wait on this. Lesley Logan 7:06  You want to come. Brad Crowell 7:07  Yeah, go to crowsnestretreats.com for more information. But for those of you who are on the waitlist, check your email.Lesley Logan 7:14  Yeah, and if we are in your spam you need to tell your your spam folder that we are important people.Brad Crowell 7:19  Yeah, hello. We've Wikipedia page. Lesley Logan 7:21  Right. What does it take to get out of the promotions folder? Damn it. Okay.Brad Crowell 7:26  All right. Next month, February. Lesley Logan 7:28  Is Agency Mini, and it is for Pilates instructors and studio owners who work for themselves or want to, and they want their business to actually not just make the impact that they want to make, but also more than pay their bills, to have to align with their values, align with their goals, feel like they're more in charge of it all. And it's just a really beautiful program that we do. It's three days of your life, and it has replay access. And we've made some additional changes to this one from last time. So you're gonna want to go to prfit.biz/mini to sign up for the waitlist, because those on the waitlist will get the early bird. The early bird is coming up pretty close, because if it's happening in February, we always do an early bird a couple weeks out, so you don't want to miss that. After Mini, in March, Brad and I are going to go to Poland and then to Brussels. So there's a Contrology Pilates conference in Poland. xxll .co/poland I'm teaching alongside Karen Frischmann there. It's going to be a whole lot of fun. We've done it a couple years before, and then we're gonna be at the Pilates and Friends or the Vintage and Friends event at Els Studio Pilateles in Brussels xxll.co/brussels there are private and group classes, and then there's also these amazing workshops. Oh, and one of my dear friends who I haven't seen in years, is going to be at the Brussels one as well, so I'm super excited to teach alongside him again. It's been, it's been since, like, we were together at Jay's studio, so awesome. And then in April, Brad, so after that, Brad and I are gonna do a little second honeymoon, why not.Brad Crowell 8:53  Well, to celebrate our 10 years of marriage, that's one.Lesley Logan 8:56  Yeah, well, yeah. But like, why not? Is like, of course you would, yeah. And then we're going to be at the P.O.T. in London. xxll.co/pot will get you the information up at the London stuff. The lineup is amazing. It's our first time doing a P.O.T. in London. So that's really exciting. And that's actually also, by the way, these events are the only events outside our tour that you can hang out with us other than the retreat. That's it. Closing the schedule guys.Brad Crowell 9:23  Whoa, whoa, whoa, all right, before we go any further, we had an audience question, and today's question is from YouTube, from The Alternatives to the Pilates Teaser for Lower Back Issues video, Kelly asks, hey, actually, it's kellynyhan7909. Hi, Kelly. She said, Hey, could you share a class that is using a floor or standing using the floor, slash standing and a chair? Could you share a class? If that's possible. I've gone through the list of mat exercises and created my own ie side twist sitting and saw but I'm wondering if more for an aging population. It, if it would be good for all i also use the standing exercises from another video for the 100, the roll up, one leg, single leg, circle marching, etc. Lesley Logan 9:49  Great. So. Brad Crowell 9:50  You're gonna have to break down this question for me, because I don't actually have an idea what this question actually is.Brad Crowell 10:08  So, the idea, so she definitely asked a question has nothing to do with the video, which we tell people that they can do anytime they want. Brad Crowell 10:21  True. Lesley Logan 10:21  So what you want to look at, Kelly, on the YouTube channel is we actually released a entire long form video about how to do Pilates at work. So there's going to be some great suggestions. You can draw some inspiration from there, if not use them completely. We also have on the YouTube channel a standing workout. There's a whole workout you can do standing. There's a wall workout, a real wall pilates workout. And then over on OPC, Mindy created a really great stretch class using a chair. And you can use she was on a Wunda Chair, but Brad was on a regular chair, and it spliced in there. So I would definitely grab that workshop, or maybe it was a stretch class. It was another legacy tab, and that's what I would do. And the other thing I would just give you permission on is, after you've done all that, that's a lot of movements, right? A lot of exercises. And our bodies actually only do so many different movement directions. And so you don't have to keep getting creative. You actually need they can get more curious and more connected. So I would get all those inspirations together, find out the ones that work best for the population you're working with, and then make them get better at it. And if they if that's not just time that's going to help them, then what other exercises outside of those things would help them? What props, what tools, you can use the Accessories Deck and OPC to help you with that. So yeah, I understood the question. Brad Crowell 10:21  Great, amazing. Lesley Logan 10:21  Probably a good thing, since I'm answering it, go to beitpod.questions to send yours in.Brad Crowell 10:50  Nope, beitpod.com/questions Lesley Logan 10:50  beitpod.com/questions and then submit your questions and maybe send up send a win, too. Something to celebrate. Brad Crowell 10:50  Yeah, send us your wins, y'all. Lesley Logan 11:49  You can also text us at 310-905-5534. Okay. Frances Naudé.Brad Crowell 11:58  Yeah, stick around. We will be right back. Brad Crowell 12:01  Okay, now let's talk about Frances Naudé. Frances Naudé is a Reiki Master, tarot reader and spiritual mentor who helps people reconnect with their intuition and live in alignment with their true selves. She's also the creator of the Four Noble Tarot Deck. Tarot Deck.Lesley Logan 12:19  You can see Tarot. Deena says, tarot. Brad Crowell 12:22  Oh, okay, and offers free tarot readings and energy guidance.Lesley Logan 12:28  Frances might say tarot, but.Brad Crowell 12:31  On YouTube, along with regular insights on Instagram from her global community, for her global community, that she affectionately calls The Soul Fam, guided by her belief that intuition is our greatest tool, Frances teaches others to trust their inner wisdom and lead with joy, courage and authenticity.Lesley Logan 12:50  Oh, my God. I was just so excited. I was like, okay, I have so many questions. Tell me everything.Brad Crowell 12:55  I really enjoyed your one question about the history.Lesley Logan 13:00  Oh, are we gonna talk about that today, or is that not in today?Brad Crowell 13:03  We are gonna. Lesley Logan 13:04  Skip it today? Brad Crowell 13:05  Well, no, it's not, it's not on here, but I thought it was very interesting. So yeah, let's just talk about it. Lesley Logan 13:09  Let me tell you something, because I think there's more to the story. And obviously we had a short period of time, so I asked her where tarot, tarot came from, right? And she's like, like, how controversial we want to be. And I said, I want to know the truth. And so she said the church, the church had it, and then the church. Brad Crowell 13:26  She said it was around before the church, but she said the church basically, adoted it. Lesley Logan 13:30  Well, they appropriated it. That's a better word for what the church does, and they appropriated it. And then, you know, you would go to the church to get support over something you were thinking about contemplating, and then they would help you use it as a self-reflection tool. Because the printing press wasn't big, and only rich people could have tarot decks painted for them, right?Brad Crowell 13:50  Right. So can you just say that one sentence? They would help you, using the tarot, tarot cards as a self-reflection tool. They would use tarot cards as a self-reflection tool. Lesley Logan 14:04  Yeah, well, and that's like, that's gonna go into what I love about what we talked about. Brad Crowell 14:13  But let's keep going with the history. Lesley Logan 14:09  Okay, so then the printing press became a thing, and so then people could just print their own tarot decks, and then they didn't need to go to the church. And so obviously that was like, not gonna work for the church, because then they'd be obsolete. So they made tarot decks be like. Brad Crowell 14:25  Well, I'm sure you tithe to have your reading or whatever, to have your self-reflection, so effectively it was costing them money. So what did they do? They made, they demonized tarot decks. Lesley Logan 14:35  The same thing they did with women healers. They demonized those too. They demonized. That's why the reason we have witches, witchcraft, all these things, is like, oh, that one point it served the church, and another point they decided to get rid of it, because it would mean they didn't have as much power. And now it became a witchy pagan thing. And let me tell you, after I heard this, I felt like my whole life was a lie. I was like, oh, my God, everything. I've ever been told that is evil and bad was actually good. It's all been good, right? You know. So anyways, we can talk about the witches they burned on another day. But I talked to Kate Wind, who we've had on the pod before, and I said, Kate, how come I didn't know that tarot decks came from the church? And she said, well, the church, we think the church took them from the Romanians, like, which the word you don't use anymore, but like Romanian gypsies, for lack of a better, like, what we're gonna call them. However, there's also some information that could have been from India as well. Brad Crowell 15:43  Interesting. Lesley Logan 15:33  But you know what? Just like we've been to Cambodia, and you're at the temples, and they're like, exactly the opposite of Machu Picchu what is what is. Brad Crowell 15:43  They're opposite on the globe. Lesley Logan 15:45  Right and so and so, it's like, to me, when I hear these things could be at the same time. It's like, because there was this human knowing that there's another way to figure out what's going on inside you. And so tarot doesn't actually tell you anything new, it echoes what you already know and maybe what you're ignoring. And so when you draw a card in tarot, the card has some sort of meaning. We'll just talk about like the upright position has some sort of meaning, right? And what you're supposed to do is reflect upon that meaning in your own life. And so I've been studying in different ways. Like I was talking to one of my besties on the phone yesterday, and she was talking about how she's doing this inventory in her life, and she's letting go of people who don't like ping back her serve, right? You know, like you gotta, it's gotta be or that she's not pinging back on them. And I was. Brad Crowell 16:36  It has to be mutual. Lesley Logan 16:37  It has to be mutual. Get this, one of the card I was studying yesterday was the moon, and the moon is this card where you're like, okay, what in my life is an illusion? Where am I? Where am I off the I'm on the wrong path. Where am I needing to let go of some things.Brad Crowell 16:53  Sorry, did you say where am I lying to myself? Lesley Logan 16:56  Yeah. Brad Crowell 16:56  Oh, recurring theme from last week's.Lesley Logan 16:58  Yeah, right. Same, same, exactly, well. And by the way, you are just doing the exact same thing you should do with tarot, which is, like you did something today. We recorded last week's show, and now you're learning about this card, and so you're using it as a way to think differently or think deeper about, self-reflection. And so I'm telling you guys right now. I mean, Frances said so many more amazing things, but like, this is the thing, if my therapist had told me pick up a tarot deck and journal, I would have been, my life problems have been solved a long time ago. Because I, this has been like, what am I supposed to reflect on? You know what I mean, like, is that not like the question you, like when people say self-reflect, like you have to do self-reflection. Like, do you ever wonder what that means? I just don't. I was like, what does that mean, though? How do I do that?Brad Crowell 17:46  Yeah, sure, but I mean, I don't know that. I usually, I'm, if I'm self-reflecting, it's because there's something that is wrong, and I'm I'm probably self-reflecting about that thing. I'm not just generally self-reflecting. Lesley Logan 17:59  Okay, well, that's good, but also you're that sounds like you're only doing it when something's gone wrong. You're not doing it when something's gone right. Brad Crowell 18:04  Well, sure. Lesley Logan 18:05  Right, and so in tarot, you could have something going well, or you could or it could be, like there could be you can use it as a yes, no, decision maker like to help you make decisions in your life. But like, everything is about it has guidance and information and the symbols, and, like we talked about that, and it helps you kind of understand, it actually helps you have empowerment. That's what she said. She said it really is all about empowerment and helping people be able to navigate their own inner wisdom and then apply it forward. And I think that's the coolest thing about it. It's like a lot of us have so much goodness, and we can only give it to our friends. We can never give it to ourselves. Brad Crowell 18:38  Yeah. So this is where it's interesting for me, right? Because, like, first off, I think that, like this interview, I found very curious. I actually really like listening to Frances. I think, I think it was revealing. There was also some things that were, like, definitely a double woo on the woo scale that I was kind of like, you know, but, but here's where I also think. Lesley Logan 18:59  Brad, remember, we went to two woos, starting 2025. Brad Crowell 19:02  Okay, but let's, let's, then she's in the 2.5s. So, so here's the thing, she also is not just doing tarot. She's also doing Reiki, right? And yoga. She's a yogi as well, like energy work, all that kind of stuff. So there's definitely she's got a lot going on. And so her answers were not exclusive to tarot. Right? And that's where, like, sometimes I was kind of going, well, you know, like, I've actually, you know, had Reiki performed on me and all that kind of stuff in the past as well. So I don't, I don't discount energy work. I think that it's, you know, we all have, we literally have a scientific magnetic field. I get it. I understand that it can be influenced with things and all the stuff. So I don't, I'm not saying no to that, either. But what I, I think that, having grown up in the church and having been like, told that like, you know, basically, tarot is the devil, you know, and looking at it like you know, effectively, it's almost like fortune telling, like, you know, you look at tarot, it's always in movies put alongside somebody with a crystal ball reading your future, and it's always portrayed as utter bullshit.Lesley Logan 20:10  Yes, I think that was part of the programming. So we would avoid it.Brad Crowell 20:13  I think so, too, you know, but, but that's just the that's where I'm coming from with it. That's the worldview that I've had my entire life, until I'm, you know, watching you do this, and listening to her talk about it. So, you know, I think that there's still that weirdness around well, when I'm having somebody else read my tarot cards, you know, this is not fortune telling, right? And I think that's what we should be very clear. They're not just making shit up. Lesley Logan 20:39  Correct. And even when you have, when you do go get a reading like Kate does them. Brad Crowell 20:43  Is it a back and forth, like you're, you know.Lesley Logan 20:45  You didn't have, you didn't get one from Lindsay? You didn't get one from Lindsay? Eric's place years ago.Brad Crowell 20:51  Maybe I can't remember, I think I did, but I can't remember. But, but the, but, like, the question I had, like, it's not like I'm sitting there in silence. They're flipping cards and telling you what's going to happen. It's more of a conversation and the person is helping you come to these conclusions.Lesley Logan 21:05  It probably depends on the on the facilitator, but essentially, the tarot readings I've had is I had one I didn't really like. I actually asked Kate about it, and she was like, she feels like she's being a little more predicting, versus like, asking you. But the one that Lindsay did, Lindsay (inaudible). Brad Crowell 21:21  She didn't do this. I think I remember it. Lesley Logan 21:21  She did a reading with me, and she pulled these cards. And I don't remember the type of spread it was, but it was basically okay. So in the past, right? She had, like, a past, present, future spread of some sort. And so in the past, she's like, okay, in your past, you had x, y and z, that is currently affecting where you are presently. So what's going on in your present life was like, let's just say you drew the full card, which is the car. Like, this is the person's like, going off doing something. They're not probably prepared for it, but they're excited. And they are like, are just going for it, right? But there's these mountains in the way. They're gonna be obstacles, but they have clear skies ahead, because there's gonna be something amazing, like, that's the full so in your past, you had this opportunity to do something amazing, and that sets you off on your present and then the present card, it could be the moon, okay? But presently, you have some illusions. You might be misaligned, and you know, like this. And then in the future, oh, the future, you've got an emperor, right? I'm just picking cards that I remember by. Brad Crowell 22:22  But the idea here is that there's, like, different positions, and one position is past, one position is present, one position is future. Lesley Logan 22:29  If you do that, yeah. Brad Crowell 22:29  And then, and then the the cards help you reflect on different things from your past, from your present, from your future. Lesley Logan 22:30  Yeah. So then you can ask your and then there's self-reflection questions like, okay, what does this make me think of is there a decision that I need to be making right now that I haven't been making? Is this, is there, is there, like, you could be doing a financial spread, and then the cards could be, you take all the meanings of the cards and it's a financial spread, and you're like, oh, if you get this one, like, there's one card that, if you get it, it's like, oh, you should take more drastic, dramatic action in your investments, right where you could draw a different card that's saying, oh, you should be more careful.Brad Crowell 23:07  But this comes down to the predictive, not the reflection. And that's where, like, that's where. For me, this is weird.Lesley Logan 23:12  So I'm explaining to it in a way that, yes, I could hear how you're saying it's predictive, where you would then take it as going, oh, okay, where can I be more aggressive in my financial investments. Where have I been too like, maybe you got the card upside down. Where have I been too aggressive in my financial investments? So you take the card's meaning , and then you apply it to your life based on the spread you're doing. And this is why we couldn't, didn't have the time to get into this. Brad Crowell 23:38  So it's like in the present, and then the whatever the card is, maybe the card is saying, let's talk about how this, you know, this, you've been too aggressive, or let's talk about how you've been not aggressive enough.Lesley Logan 23:49  You could actually draw a card that is all about intuition. And so then the question is like, okay, what is my intuition saying I should be doing today, or I should be doing right now, like you're.Brad Crowell 23:58  But this is what, okay, now that we're talking about it clarifying in this way, it's bringing me even more on board, because it effectively is almost like talking points. Yeah, each card represents a different talking point, a different analytical way of looking at your own past, present and future. Lesley Logan 24:16  Correct. If you do that spread and so what you are supposed to do is listen to them explain what each card means and the position that it's in, and then go and apply it. Meaning, like, reflect upon it and go, okay, it like, let's say you're doing a spread that has to do with your your career, right? You, right now, Brad, are currently doing a lot more sales in the in our business, right? You could end up with, like, doing a spread where it's in the future, it's showing you as having more leadership roles. Okay? So then it's like, okay, well, if in the future, I might having to take on more leadership roles in this business, then you know, what do I need to be doing today to prepare myself? How much of how, what does that feel like for me? Do, if that is something I was going to take on, what would I like to learn about myself? What would I want to do? What should I be doing now? So that can be even a possibility, right? So, like, it just reflects upon different things. And also, it's not predictive. It's just they're all each card, what it represents is more. It's like, not, I don't want to distill it down to a vibe, but it's a vibe, right? Like, and they represent different feelings. There are some cards that, like, the cups are all about emotions. So when you draw Cups cards in your spread, and maybe it's a day spread, maybe you just do one card a day, you might draw the 10 of Cups, which is all about relationships. So then it's like, Okay, today, where can I invest more in my relationships? So for me, I prefer the Day card, because it's like, okay, it's like a focus for today, but you can use them.Brad Crowell 25:50  It's almost like a journal prompt, you know it's like, it's like a preconceived 365 day journal prompt.Lesley Logan 25:56  Correct, I bought a whole journal that does one a day, and they have stickers. And I was like, fucking in. I'm doing it. I got stickers for I got a tarot card sticker. Brad Crowell 26:03  This is cool. I like this even more now. Lesley Logan 26:05  And so and so, for me, the way I've been studying it is, like, the card I'm studying, I'm literally going, how today did I see did, like, when I was studying, like, the Empress, like, oh, how today was I, like, using these things that she has or, or I wasn't using these things. Oh, there was that moment today where I outsourced my intuition to this person over here. So it just helps you reflect upon yourself and get to know yourself more. And the thing is that we all need if we want to have self-love, prevent burnout, be it till we see it. If you don't know yourself like you, you don't know how to listen to yourself, then it becomes really hard. So I have really got obsessed with it, because I'm like, oh, this is a way for me to have a conversation with myself that is somewhat guided and that it's whatever card I drew, whatever card I'm learning from that day, and that allows me to reflect upon today or my past or whatever, and uncover and almost like an onion, peel back another layer without outsourcing my agency.Brad Crowell 27:06  Well, I was just talking about this. Well, first off, that's really cool, and I and I agree, I think it's awesome that this is like, you're not outsourcing, you're not nothing wrong with going to see a therapist or anything like that. That's not what I'm talking about. But it's nice that this is something that you can do on your own. And I was just talking about this with someone about self-reflection, and I love that this is effectively a self -reflection practice.Lesley Logan 27:29  Yeah, that's and that's like, I really was so pleased that Frances explained it in that way, because correct, like you, I went to a tarot reader thinking they're gonna tell me what could be coming up in the future, and I forgot the time that Lindsay did it. And more was like, okay, you've been through X, Y and Z according to your past. You're it's currently affecting in this way and presenting in this way. And in the future, this could be coming up, and you should be aware of it. And it's like, so that sounds predictive, but also I still have to be the one who goes and does the thing. So I need to reflect upon, what did I learn in the past when it comes to that area that this card is representing? What am I currently going through that this card is highlighting, and then this future card is sharing, is putting this as a thing to be looking at. Doesn't mean it's predictive, but like, if that, like, what do I, where's the gap? What do I need to know? What does that, what feeling does that bring up in me? You know? So it's not, it's more of a guide, it's just a guide. I really like it. And I, and I am so pissed that I this was it took me 43 years of my life to know this is something I could use. I'm so grateful for Frances.Brad Crowell 28:38  Well, nothing like a little anger to make motivate you to learn.Lesley Logan 28:41  Yeah. Oh, and also, people keep asking if I'm going to do a reading, and the answer is no.Brad Crowell 28:46  Okay, so here's the deal that's funny that you say that, you know, how do you you know, I just want to briefly touch on this before we move on to some great Be It Action Items. But because I just hijacked your whole conversation and asked about the process and the belief behind it and how it works, which I am glad we did, because I feel like it was good to clarify that I had also written down some notes about the conversation you had with listening to your own intuition, right, because you asked her questions about how did you know that you could do this full time as a career? How did this turn into a career? And I'm gonna skip a whole lot of my notes, but ultimately, she said, you know, pursuing the unconventional path requires being your own staunchest supporter. Because you were talking about, how was it like at a family picnic with people like you're doing what now are you can I like, pray for you? Lesley Logan 29:32  Oh, I could only imagine. Brad Crowell 29:32  Yeah, right. And so.Lesley Logan 29:32  When I told people I was a Pilates instructor, that was already weird. Can you imagine telling them that you're doing Reiki and tarot?Brad Crowell 29:40  Right. So, you know, and what she said, It's not that you have to have the it's not that you have the confidence already. It's that you trust so deeply that you're that what you're doing is what you're supposed to be doing, which is listen to it, to your intuition, right? She said, you do it scared anyways, which is being it till you see it? Right. And she said that builds your confidence. So I just wanted to make sure we got that in. I thought that was really awesome. But stick around. We'll be right back. We're gonna uncover these Be It Action Items that we got from Frances Naudé. Brad Crowell 30:09  All right, welcome back. Let's talk about those Be It Action Items. What bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Frances Naudé? She said you have to learn how to hear and trust your intuition. Learn how to hear and trust your intuition. And she said, here's a three-part practice for building your intuitive muscle. And this is great, because learn how to hear and trust your intuition is not helpful for me, but here's three steps. Here's how you do that. Start with small daily decisions, things that you do every day, like choosing your tea, picking produce, or selecting which pair of underwear to wear, because that's what she does. She picks it up and she goes, is today, this pair of underwear day, or that pair of underwear day? And she's building this intuitive muscle, you know, like listening to herself, feeling it out, right. And she said, why does she do it then? Because it's something she repeats every single day. She has to make a choice right then, and so she's.Lesley Logan 31:04  I'm obsessed with it, because it goes in line with how habits are created. Brad Crowell 31:08  Hundred percent, yeah. She says, pause and feel after you make the choice, stop and notice what does it feel like in your body, and what energy do you have when you've made that decision. Then recognize the nature of intuition. So this is step three, recognize the nature of intuition. It's quiet. Often feels like a passing thought can lead you down paths that challenge your comfort zone and beliefs. She said, your intuition often will not make logical sense. It might not actually be loud. People always expect these really big moments, but intuition is often really quiet. So she basically, she's reminding us that daily awareness practice will help you build trust in your own guidance long before the big decisions show upLesley Logan 31:48  And to the next step, then ,you have to do that first. You guys don't get to skip ahead, do that first, the next step is to define your highest self. So this is the person we're being it until we see, right? This is a place that exists without ego, she said, without fears, worries, anxieties, and without other people's stories. So yeah, get rid of the other people's stories that are in your head, telling you who your highest self is. And then she encouraged you to clearly define who that self is and live by it. And she, Frances actually shared her three pillars of her highest self, which are, she lets joy lead. She does not let fear get in her way, and she lives in unity with all that's around her. I think that that's those are really tough things to kind of do, because we all want to control how things are. But if you let joy lead hence the going back to last week's episode, I love that these are back to back episodes, and then not letting fear get in the way. That means doing things scared. You know, going back to last week's episode. So so she also said, when you combine a strength and intuitive muscle with a clear vision of the highest self, every decision you make, you are walking that aligned path, even when the noise gets loud. And I just want to say that one more time, when you combine a strength and intuitive muscle with a clear vision of that highest self, every decision you make, you're walking that aligned path. So that's what I want for you guys. And I'm really, really like, I hate how long it took us to get this episode out, Frances, because, like, I've been working so hard on my tarot, but I really am super excited that it's coming out this time of the new year, when people can actually, like, instead of going new year, new me, it's like, what, what, who are, is your highest self. That should be the thing that you're thinking about. And then what can you do every day to walk in alignment with that? And that's going to help you with all the ups and downs and highs and lows. I'm Lesley Logan. Brad Crowell 33:31  And I'm Brad Crowell. Lesley Logan 33:32  Thank you, Frances Naudé. Y'all, how are we gonna use these tips in your life? What were your favorite parts? Make sure you tag Frances. By the way, you guys, she does a weekly drawing every single Monday. It's quite fun to attend live, and I'm sure you can get to know more about her. And look, I probably got some of this information wrong, but this is my interpretation of it. I'm sticking with it. Don't take it from me. All right, until next time. Be It Till You See It.Brad Crowell 33:52  Bye for now. Lesley Logan 33:54  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 34:36  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 34:41  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 34:46  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 34:53  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 34:56  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this grounded and eye-opening conversation, Reiki Master and tarot creator Frances Naudé joins Lesley Logan to reframe tarot as a tool for self-trust, clarity, and empowered decision-making. Frances explains how tarot doesn’t predict your future—it reflects what you already know and may be ignoring. Together, they explore how creating space, asking better questions, and learning to trust subtle inner signals can shift how you navigate decisions, career changes, and personal growth—reminding listeners that self-trust is a skill you can practice.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:Tarot as a mirror for intuition rather than a tool for prediction.Why intuition speaks quietly and how to make space to hear it.How asking better questions leads to clearer, empowered decisions.The difference between tarot and oracle cards—and how to use each.Strengthening the intuition muscle through repeated daily decisions.Episode References/Links:Frances Naude's Website - https://www.francesnaude.comFrances Naude's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@francesnaudeFree Intro to Tarot Online Course - https://beitpod.com/intrototarotFrances Naude's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/francesnaudeFrances Naude's TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@francesnaudeGuest Bio:Frances Naudé supports her global community through her work as a Tarot Card Reader, Tarot Card Deck Creator, Reiki Master, and Spiritual Mentor. Her keen ability to channel hyper-specific messages from Spirit has helped thousands of people co-create an aligned life of purpose, joy, and holistic wellbeing. The Soul Fam, as Frances so lovingly calls her clients, can choose to receive from one-on-one sessions (both remotely and in person), online courses, mentorship programs, the Four Noble Tarot Deck, or free virtual readings and healings on YouTube. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentCheck out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper’s Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentBe in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlistBe It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-surveyBe a part of Lesley’s Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gLesley Logan website https://lesleylogan.co/Be It Till You See It Podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjogqXLnfyhS5VlU4rdzlnQProfitable Pilates https://profitablepilates.com/about/Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesley.logan/The Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gFacebook https://www.facebook.com/llogan.pilatesLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-logan/The OPC YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@OnlinePilatesClasses Episode Transcript:Frances Naudé 0:00  Like, Oh, I pulled a tarot card today. It's like, the universe slapped me in the face. It is like really, it is kind of like that, because Tarot never really tells you anything new. It just echoes what you already know and maybe what you're ignoring.Lesley Logan 0:14  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. Lesley Logan 0:53  Be It babe, just having the best day recording for you. I just have to say this, like, it's been one of the most wonderful day recording. But I also just want to say, like, this is a topic that, like, I was like, oh, I wonder how we could talk about this on the Be It pod. And then it got to like, you know, I really am interested in this. And then also it became even more important as we got into this conversation. So Frances Naudé is our guest today, and we're going to talk tarot, and even if you think you don't need to know about tarot, that's not what this episode is about. This episode is about how can we trust ourselves more? Can't be it till you see it if you don't have trust in who you are. And we talked a little bit about confidence and just really understanding, like what, what is going on inside of ourselves? And I just think that this is the most informative episode when it comes to self-trust and confidence that I've had in a long, long time. And I really can't wait for you to hear it. And there's also a history of where tarot came from that blew my fucking mind. Blew it, blew it. So here is Frances Naudé. Lesley Logan 1:56  Okay, Be It, babe. This, this topic I'm super excited about when one of our dear friends, friend of the pod, has been on the pod before, Kelly Hartling told me about this, when I was like, yeah, I am yes, how quickly can we get this person on? So this is the first time Frances Naudé and I are meeting, but this, this is something I'm very excited to talk about. So Frances, can you tell everyone who you are and what you rock at? Frances Naudé 2:19  Yes. Hello. Thank you for having me. As you said, I am Frances. I am a Reiki Master, energy healer, a tarot card reader. I am the creator of the Four Noble tarot deck, and I am a spiritual channel and spiritual mentor. So essentially, my purpose, my sole purpose here, is to help people heal and align and live their most authentic and joyful lives, and I do that through energy healing, which also supports the physical body, as well as tarot card readings. And the way that I work with tarot is very much in the present moment, while you know, fortune telling may have its place for me, I believe in free will, and so I prefer to focus on empowering people, helping them understand their own intuition, what I call their spiritual team. So bringing in all the good beings that surround you all the time, and allowing allowing that messaging to come through and really up level your human form and your human life here that we chose to have. Lesley Logan 3:16  Okay, so excited about this, because okay, so there's this person that I am. I have bought tarot decks. I don't really know what I'm doing with them, but I they're so beautiful, and they're so pretty and, like, I have friends like, oh, I drew a card today. I'm like, yeah, I'll do that. I'm gonna draw a card. And then I'm like, what does this card mean? I don't know what it means. All I know is it's either right side up or it's upside down. And then I'm like, okay, Google, watch us mean, and then it gives you a meaning. And I'm like, I do with that, though. So can you tell us a little about, can we go into that? Because I think, like, first of all, for the people are like, this is a double woo, LL, like, I'm not really sure. I don't call it a double woo anymore. I actually think it's another way, to me, I've seen people use it as like, not therapy, but a way to meditate, or way to explore, a way to understand themselves, or to ask themselves a different question for the day. So that's why I don't think it's a double woo. But what are we supposed to do with tarot?Frances Naudé 4:13  Yeah, so tarot, it does. I mean, you can work with it so many different ways. There are thousands of decks out there, and like, my number one thing is, if you want to work with tarot, use a deck that you like, not the deck that someone told you to use. Because your intuition, whether you are like, really great at listening to it and you totally understand it, or whether you're like, I don't, I kind of know, but, you know, I have a gut feeling, but I don't really work with it every day, it's still working right. So you are going to be drawn to a deck, whether it's the artwork, the colors, the whatever. And so work with that deck. Now your deck hopefully comes with a guidebook, and so with that, as you mentioned, or like Google, like, yeah, if you're Googling, that's great, you know, because tarot does require some study. You know, tarot cards, each one, there's 78 and each one has this specific definition from deck to deck, guidebook to guidebook, they will change a little bit, but they should have that like basic core every card means the same thing. Now, with my deck and the guidebook that I wrote, slash channeled, and when I say channel, if anyone is new here, this does sound very woo, but it is what I now super duper with all of me trust to be 100% true, and all of us can do this if we want to. We were designed as humans to do this. It's just we've been programmed to not but channeling is receiving from energy, God, universe, spirit, whatever it is that you believe in. So I channeled that and wrote the guidebook. And for me, as you said, sometimes you read it and you're like, okay, so what do I do? This guidebook and as well as many out there, I'm not just saying like, oh, buy mine, you know, they should hopefully be actionable as well. So this is how you're feeling, and here's what you can do with it. But there is also a way to rely on your intuition, right? So it's like, you pull a card and you're like, I don't know what this means. Let me look it up. And then maybe the death or the guidebook that you have says, you know, this means that you are overwhelmed, and you're like, well, duh, I'm overwhelmed. Then that could be a moment for you to check in and be like, okay, well, what's overwhelming me? What can I do about that? And so that's why it's really great. If you're newer to tarot, you know, to study the guidebook that you're working with, and also work with other people who can, like read for you, because they can kind of even just getting a reading one time. They can show you how to, sort of like work with the information that you're given. But tarot, it's a tool that's ultimately the way that I use it, at least it's a tool to gain information about myself through my own intuition from, again, what I call spiritual teams. Or it's just, like, as much as I really believe in the sacred nature of it, it's really fun. You know, people hire me for events all the time, and like, well, like, I'm the party trick, you know, and it's like a fun thing to do, but I really do believe that it is so informative if you allow it to be, and it really can be whatever you want it to be, it's like meditation, right? If you want to meditate and have some really big, profound experience, that's what it's going to be for you. Or if you want to do a one minute visualization, that's what it's going to be for you. It doesn't really matter what you're doing, it's how it's serving you and how you're working with it, and what you're receiving from it.Lesley Logan 7:25  Yeah, because the way you're describing it, too, is it's almost like, instead of like, letting the card tell you how you're feeling or what you should be doing, it's a, it's a, it's asking you, ideally, to go within and explore. What does that mean, and where is this coming from, and what, what does it mean for me? So you, you're not going, oh, I have to follow this card, because that's what it says today. And instead, it's like to follow myself. And what is this card kind of asking me to focus on today, because there's so many different things we could focus on in the world at one given time. So, like, it's kind of giving you a thing to think about.Frances Naudé 7:57  Exactly and it's funny too. Like, if you get on, you know, like the tarot side of Instagram, or TikTok or whatever it is, there's these memes, and it'll be like, you know, even in comparison to oracle cards. So if anyone listening is like, well, wait, I have an Oracle Card Deck. What's the difference between Oracle and tarot? Okay, very briefly, tarot again, 78 cards. There's always going to be 78 cards, and every card should have a similar meaning between decks Oracle, fair game and typically, Oracle cards are also channeled by the author, but they're a little bit softer and lighter. Oracle cards are very actionable. That was actually my inspiration when writing my guidebook was like, exactly what you said, What do I do? So I wrote it similar to an Oracle Card guidebook rooted in tarot, so it was very actionable. But going back to the meme having that differentiation, the Oracle card, it'll be like, oh, I pulled an Oracle card today, and it's like, universe gave me a hug, and then it's like, oh, I pulled a tarot card today. It's like, universe slapped me in the face. Really, it is kind of like that, because Tarot never really tells you anything new, it just echoes what you already know and maybe what you're ignoring. A lot of times, when I do readings for people, you know they're like, I knew that. And I'm like, I know you did. You just needed a complete stranger who knows nothing about your life to tell you that you can trust yourself. And my favorite thing ever, as much as I love my clients, is when I don't see them for a while because I'm like, you're doing it. You are doing the thing, right? It's like, when you graduate from therapy and your therapist is like, you can come once every three months now, or whenever you feel like it, instead of weekly, like you've learned the tools. So it does provide information in terms of, like, if I ask, you know, what's the energy of the situation, or should I take this path or this path? Though spirit will never give you a clear answer. It's always going to be your choice, but they can kind of show you, like the energy of this decision A versus decision B, and then it's like, okay, so what do you want with that? Um, so ultimately, yeah, it's information, at least the way that I work with it. And again, there are many ways to work with it, but for me, it really is all about empowerment and helping people be able to, like, navigate their own inner world and inner wisdom and then apply that forward.Lesley Logan 10:14  Okay, so excited. Okay, so I guess two, two questions. And I hate when I do two at the same time, but I'm gonna do it. One, where did tarot come from? And two, how did you get into it? Because if you're so passionate about it. Like, clearly, like it, there's some, there's something there, so, but I do, like, you know, like, I know Joe Pilates created Pilates. Like, who is Mr. Taro, or Mrs. Taro, or they tarot. Like, where did it come from?Frances Naudé 10:38  Yes, okay, so many origin stories of tarot, but what I have learned, and what I teach to my students, is that tarot actually originated, oh, I can't say originated, but very early on, was used in the church. Tarot was also a game. So tarot cards, it was like the game Tarot. I have no idea how that game works. It is a game. And then people started receiving, like, the same information through the imagery, and then started using it. I don't love this word, but like the occult, if you've ever seen that, to me, that feels like, really, like heavy in a way, but that is the history of it. And then it was often adopted by the church. But what I understand from this is that people were playing tarot, using tarot, and when the printing press was invented, it became really widely spread, right? So in the tarot deck, there, this will make sense why I'm saying this in a second, in the tarot deck, there are five suits, so the first four we call the Minor Arcana. And those resemble a playing card deck, right? So diamonds, clubs, hearts and spades, we have swords, pentacles, cups and wands. Then we have the fifth suit, which is the Major Arcana. The Major Arcana are like names, so it's like The Moon, The Hermit, The Empress, like they are themes. And back in the day, many people would have artists, so wealthy people who could afford to hire an artist, would have like images drawn for their major suit, for their major death, right? But if you wanted a tarot deck, you had to commission it. You had to find an artist who could do the drive. So then come the printing press. We didn't have to do that anymore, right? So decks were more readily available, which means that this tool was more readily available. The Church didn't like that, because it was putting power in the hands of the people instead of going to whatever your religious leader was. And so they took it back and they demonized it, right? Like many organized religions, tarot is evil, tarot is paganism. Tarot is.Lesley Logan 12:51  Oh I was raised with that. It was terrible, terrible, yeah. Frances Naudé 12:51  Totally, when I do events, people look at me and like, some people are like, oh, I'm so excited. And some people are like, and they like, walk away.Lesley Logan 12:59  I'm going straight to hell. It's happening. Frances Naudé 13:03  Yeah, I'm like, I swear I'm normal, and this is fun. But so that is, like one of the, or two of the origins, well, I guess, like a one very convoluted world of tarot, um, and then over time, obviously, you know, people were still practicing it. It was just seen. It was, it was the church was successful, because if you had tarot cards, you were going against the church, right? So it became this, like, kind of dark thing. And then we had the original tarot deck, which is the Rider-Waite Tarot Deck. This is still widely available. Obviously, it's been like, modernized and the colors have popped, but I think it's like, like, you can get it on Amazon or bookstores or anything like that. And if anyone is looking for it, it's R-I-D-E-R dash W-A-I-T-E and I will say, if you are learning tarot to become you know, like a seasoned professional, I would recommend starting with that deck. The imagery in that deck is super, super, like every single little image represents something. So if you want to really, like deep dive into tarot study Rider-Waite and then you can start using whatever deck you want. But that's like the OG deck, okay? And then how I began working with tarot. Honestly, it's like, so I don't remember exactly, you know, it's kind of like, it's, it's foggy when you look back, because you pick something up and you're like, this is never gonna like, this isn't anything. This is just a fun thing. And then you're like, oh, this is my job now. But I started, so I started with energy work. Well, I started with, well, I started in corporate, then I was deeply unhappy. So I started taking night classes, and I got my health coach certification, and that was like, closer to the thing. Whatever the thing was, it was closer, but it wasn't quite it. Then I did my yoga teacher certification. I'd always been a dancer, and I was like, I love, you know, the body and all of that. I'm going to do yoga thinking it was more exercise. But then my favorite part of yoga teacher training was the philosophical side of it, and you're learning all the yogic principles and all of that, and that really led me down the path of energy. So then I started studying Reiki, and then from Reiki, I started studying tarot. And I was, like, such a dork. I like, printed out every single description, and like, studied and was highlighting and all of it. And now I'm, like, actually so grateful for my past self for doing that. Because now, if someone were like, you need to study the definitions of 78 tarot cards, I'd be like, there's just no, I don't have time for that. But at the time, it was like, I was like, eating it up, like anything that I could get. And then, yeah, I just started taking clients, not ever thinking it would be anything. And I was working multiple jobs at a time, and because I eventually left corporate, and then I was had a bunch of side gigs, and also doing, you know, Reiki and tarot. And then one day, I was like, oh, my God. Why am I so overwhelmed? Like, why am I so tired? I was like, oh, because you're doing, like, seven things and I was so blessed that I was able to finally build up my clientele where I could let those other pieces go. And it was such a dream come true. I couldn't believe that this was like my full time gig after many, many, many years, but it was, yeah.Lesley Logan 16:13  I love I love that it was a nonlinear way for you. Because I do think everyone has to hear that, whether you're into the tarot part of the story or not. Like, just knowing that we all end up somewhere where we think it's supposed to be because of what we were told, which, you know, as you start to the more you start to hear stories of what like we're told is going to make us happy. And then then you hear, like, just the things that, like, some things were available, and then someone decided that they're not available anymore. And like, you know, like you start to realize, like, oh, it's not bad that you started in corporate, because it led you to where you are, and it allows you to recognize people, and also some people will always be in corporate, and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with it. But like, no one's journey to figuring out what they want to be and what they're really called to do is linear. It happens to be like, oh, what's down this door? Oh, I really am interested in that. Hold on, what's this over here? And I just think that that's so fascinating. Okay, so I love that you said, like, if I started to pick up trying to learn 78 decks, 78 cards, right now, I probably wouldn't. I'm like, right here going, how long would it take me to learn 70? Because it's actually quite funny, because I teach Pilates teachers every year I work with Pilates teachers who already be teaching, but I'll teach them over 500 exercises every year, right and, and I don't think I quite understood, like, what I was embarking on when I became a Pilates instructor. And I think today, like, wow, could I learn 500 right now? Like, learn them the way I learned them? But if somebody does want to pick this up as a hobby or just something that they're like, wanting to explore more. Obviously, you gave us that original deck that could be a great one. And also, like what your intuition is like, you know what you like, but what do you do? Do you draw one a day? Do you do it when you meditate? Do you do it when you need it? Like, how do you use it? Frances Naudé 17:54  Yeah, so for someone who wants, like, daily use for themselves, I would say, just do it when you feel called. I love pulling a card a day. It's a great way to get acquainted with the deck. You can read from the guidebook. You can Google like you're learning as you go, right? Because that that's the whole point. And even if you don't memorize it, that's okay, you're still receiving the information. So I think one a day is awesome if you have a meditation practice or you want to create one, you can add that in so like pull a card, see what it says. Meditate for five minutes, what's coming through for you? You know what? What did you receive from that 10 minute practice? That's what I love about tarot is especially for people who have limited time, whether you have kids or you have a demanding job, or you struggle to focus for a while, or whatever it is, it's so tangible that you can actually, like, take it in these bite sized pieces, and then maybe one day, you're like, I want to pull three cards, or I want to pull 10 cards. So that's option one is kind of just pulling to see what comes through. The other is, if you're in an area where or a time in life, we're like, I need guidance, like, I need some info. I need some some clarity. That's a great time to pull tarot, right? And you can literally ask the cards your question. Now I hesitate with yes no's, so reframing your questions is important. So for example, let's say it's like, should I take this job? Yes or no? maybe I would change it to, what is the energy of taking this job, pull a card. What is the energy of rejecting this job? Pull a card, and you can see energetically which one is lighter. If you get two cards that are light, that's universe being like both both options are a great choice for you, and it's just gonna lead down a different path. You know, that's something I've learned in this work, is if you are being presented with options, there's no right or wrong choice, there's just different paths. And so this is about really like listening to what path you want, right? Maybe, like, option one, the card that you get is, like, you know, I don't know, very warm, like the Sun card, right? That's warmth, that's growth. It's, you know, it feel, it feels like summer, so there's a lot of energy in it that. But maybe, and then maybe the other card is a little bit more money focused, right? Like, 10 of pentacles, that's money, that's family, right? So you're like, oh, I can have abundance and a family. I want that. But then if you're someone who's like, I want to be a CEO, maybe you run down, you go down that Sun path, right? So it's, it's highlighting options for you. So I think number one, to answer your question, it's, yeah, a daily practice pulling a card. That's great. You'll learn as you go. Number two, ask them questions. If you have them, one of my favorite questions, which is still very broad, and this is always how I start my personal readings for myself, is, what do I need to know right now? Like, what do you what do you want to tell me right now? What do I need to know right now? If I have specific questions, I'll ask them. But usually the what do I need to know right now is pretty like they will point out your stressors, or, you know, where you're feeling lack of clarity, or whatever it may be. And then I think for people who want to, like, really dive in, there just is no other way but to study like you just you got to study, and you have to practice, practice with yourself. But the best way to learn to read tarot cards is to actually practice on other people, because that pressure of like, oh my god, someone's waiting for me to tell them something. It's forcing you to get out of your own way. It's forcing you to shut that brain off and just dive in. I imagine it's like teaching your first Pilates class where you're standing out there and you're like, oh my god, oh my god. There are all of these people staring at me, waiting for me to tell them what to do like I just got to go that's similar with tarot. And once you do like those first five to 10, you learn to trust yourself, and then it makes reading cards for yourself a lot easier. I always like to tell people reading cards for yourself in the beginning is way harder than reading for other people. So if you really want to start like developing this practice, do it for other people and trust yourself. And then final piece, final tip for if you're learning cards, is find a deck whose imagery speaks to you because the imagery is informative of the message. So I'll show you an example, or I'll give an example here. Let's say, okay, this card, I'll describe it. This is 10 of swords. Okay, so it's this woman sitting on a tombstone. I know it sounds really intense, but there's ivy growing all over it. There's the 10 swords, which is representative, you know, of of the of the card. And then there's a moon there. And this card is all about completion, right? This is about ending of cycles. This is about death, right? And not physical death, but, you know, the death of something. And so if I were brand new to tarot and I looked at this card, I would probably be like, oh, okay, that's a tombstone. So she's alive, though something changed. She's like, you know, I would get something from this. So that's a really beautiful way to learn with tarot, is like, reading from the imagery itself, and then, like, really trusting yourself. That was a lot of insight, sorry.Lesley Logan 23:13  Frances, you're, it's so fun because, like, it's all the questions, like you're answering questions I didn't even know I had, but also the overarching theme I'm getting from all of this, and I think that, like, it's so funny, I kind of feel like I was, like, part of my life was stolen from me by being told that tarot was, like, paganism is that like, it continues to ask you to trust what's coming up for you? Like, even, you know, like, even if you're reading for a friend, you're asking them the question. It's like, you know, like it's, you're looking at the card, but you're asking them the question, like, oh, something's coming to a completion. Like, it's not, it's, it's not someone else telling you something, it's asking to go within. And I think, like in today's world, with everything that's going on, there's so many things asking us to focus on all this other stuff that we're not, very few people are focusing on themselves and how they actually feel and what their energy is. And so having a practice, even if it's once a week or once a day, to like, go, what is this telling me right now? Oh, this is about overwhelm, or this is about abundance. Oh, I do have a lot in my life right now, like just having that moment to check in and with ourselves, like some of us need that physical thing to do that.Frances Naudé 24:25  Yeah, 100% that's that's what I do. Like again, when I don't see clients, I'm like, oh my god, I miss them, but I'm so happy because that means that they've been able to trust themselves intuition or gut feelings or inner wisdom, whatever it is that you want to call it for yourself, it is so silenced by noise. And so social media, TV, like, how many as we wake up, we roll over. Instagram, yeah, we wake up, we roll over, put on the news. We wake up like, you know, we just like, get in this cycle. And so, as you said, yeah, this. 510, minutes. Sometimes you don't even need to pull the card. It's literally just the sitting down. It's like, oh, I've given myself this 5, 10, 20, 30 minutes of space. Like, what's coming up in here? And it is, and it's, it's, but this is the thing, because you said this, and I'm going to highlight it, it's listening. But the key point is trusting and learning how to trust your intuition is, in my opinion, like the secret sauce to life, because if we, it sends us down some wild path sometimes, like the scariest ones, the riskiest ones, but it's always the ones who, where you're like, yeah, this is it. And it lights you up. And even going back to, like, what you said with, you know, like, if I were to go back and teach five or learn 500 things, like, think about yourself at that time, me too. Like, learning the tarot, it's like, oh my god. Like I was so jazzed to learn that, like, I couldn't wait to, and now it's become a part of you. So there's that integration, but that lighting up like, that is your intuition talking, even though it's probably a little scary too, it's like, that is, it's never gonna steer you down the wrong path. Lesley Logan 26:15  Yeah. But also, like, how, like, you just said, like, it's trusting your intuition. Like, by the way, if, you're unstoppable, if you can trust yourself. And that's like, now, like, I have so many different thoughts and like about like, of course, people don't want us doing that. They because then we don't listen to them. We don't listen to what they think that we should be buying or or believing or doing, you know, because otherwise you are, you're following someone else's path versus the one that's your own. Oh, this is deep, okay, I do want to ask you this. It's been on my heart this whole show, because it's like, it's be it till you see it. And part of that is like acting like the person that you want to be and becoming that person, all that stuff. But along the way, there are some certain people's paths of being until you see it, that could get some interesting eyes. I cannot imagine that you would tell people at a family reunion, I'm becoming a tarot reader, and people don't go, what? Like was it, was your family like, yeah, you do you, babe. Or were people like, are you okay? Are you sure? Like.Frances Naudé 27:17  Yeah. So, oh, the things I've had said to me or about me, those are the funniest ones where I'm like, okay, I had friends parents call them, like, is Frances, okay? You know? Because, like, sometimes I would channel live on Instagram, and people would be like, like, has she gone off the deep end? Like, are we good here? I've had a lot of people. The ones that hurt me the most were actually friends, or like people in our friend group, I say, I mean, my husband, it was mostly his friends. So I shouldn't care, because as much as I love anyone of any gender or or no gender, I really don't care what a 25 year old dude thinks about me, but it still hurt. And what it showed me was like, I guess, like my own fears and like my own (, because I had a lot of those specific people be like, honestly, telling me I was ripping people off, like having people pay money for a placebo effect and like that just like, broke my heart because I was like, I, this is life changing. Like, this helps people. And fine, you don't have to be the person that it helps. I'm not going to ever force anyone, but don't, like, bash it till you've tried it, essentially. So those ones really hurt. The Frances, you're crazy. I would just kind of laugh along and be like, yeah, for sure. You know, like, my first disclaimer when I tell people what I do is, I promise I'm normal. Because you tell somebody you're a tarot card reader or you're a Reiki healer and you work within people's energy, they're like, that's not a thing. And I'm like, I understand that it's hard to understand, but it is. But my family, specifically, you know, my mom was always super supportive. She went on a very long, like, religious and spiritual journey throughout her whole life. She and I are pretty aligned on our beliefs. I wasn't raised with this, but it's funny. In retrospect, I look back and I actually think my grandmother, she never really talked about it, but she always had crystals, and was, like, really educated, and love reading books about philosophy and the brain, and so I think now I wish, and I have a great relationship with her, you know, on the other side, and it's, it's lovely, but I do sometimes wish that I could be an adult with her still outside, so I could, like, have these conversations with her. I'm sure some of them would be like, Frances, no, and then some of them would be really interesting. My dad was the funniest one because he he never was not supportive for him. It was more, am I going to be okay financially, like, business-wise, right? Like, am I am I okay? But now he'll kind of ask me questions about little things, or if he has, like, a minor injury or something he'd like, can you give Reiki, and then he'll, like, go tell all of his friends that his knee feels better or something. And, you know, it's and like, even my husband, he's funny too, with it. Like, I know they kind of believe it. They just don't, I know they believe it. They just don't want to admit they believe it. But like, before, when he was still growing in his career, anytime he had an interview or something, he'd be like, can you can you give me Reiki like the night before? And so I know that they feel it and they receive from it, or with tarot, even, like I read my husband's cards every once in a while, or even, you know, it's funny, my tarot cards have told me twice that I was pregnant and they were right both times, you know. So even for our family, and family planning like that has been really cool. So I think the more people receive from it themselves, the more that they understand it. But I definitely get a lot of looks and a lot of words, and I've learned to let it roll off, but it's part of it's part of it. When you do something different. I'm sure you've experienced that, too. Lesley Logan 30:59  Oh, I mean, 100% and I think, like, the interesting thing about what you said is, like, the things that sting are the things that you kind of have a worry of, like, are people going to think this, right? And of course, then that's the criticism that you hear the loudest, even if it was from the people who are the quietest voices in your life. Like, if they were to say, you have nice hair, you probably wouldn't even remember, like, it'd be, you know what I mean, if it was a compliment, because it's like, oh, okay, that's, you know, like, it's not like that you don't listen to them, but they don't act. Their opinion doesn't really mean anything. But when they say the thing that you are like, internally worried that people would think about you, that's where we can get hung up. But it also sounds like, you know, in being it till we see it, and whatever our dream is when we do something that is outside of society's norms of what our career should be, you kind of just have to believe in yourself and like, trust that as people see the results of it, whether it's in what people you're doing with other people or themselves, that they kind of buy in. And you have to, you can't wait for them to you have to do it. You have to keep going and showing them this is what it is, and believing in yourself to make it happen. Yes, no, I have a as a Pilates instructor. I do travel the world, which doesn't make sense, because people literally on a plane, they're like, What are you doing? Like, oh, I'm gonna go to Poland for the weekend. And they're like, to do what? Like, I have to teach. And they're like, teach about like, it's just not gonna make any sense. I'm gonna teach Pilates. And they're like, don't they have Pilates in Poland, I'm like, correct, which is why I'm yes, I I don't know how to explain to you that I have this weird role in the industry, because it doesn't make sense to people, but also, like, it's why we do what we do. It's not because it's weird, but it's because we're so called to do it, and people want to be around that. And so it's just really cool. Thank you for sharing all the different parts of that story, because I do think it can be hard to change the career, to do the thing like, to go from the stable corporate job to like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change people's energies for a living. Like that can make people go, oh, okay. Are you okay? Are you okay? But we have to, we have to be okay with it is the ultimate thing, because other you can't otherwise, you're not going to make it. You know, I firmly believe that, like neither one of us would be here if we had actually waited for other people to deem us sane. It's a good idea. Frances Naudé 33:15  100% and it's one of those things too. I mean, even going back to everything, you say, be it till you see it, see it. It's like, it's not that you're in the beginning, especially and even now. Like, there's times I'm like, what am I what am I doing? Like, what do I do? Like, what am I doing? Okay, I guess I'm doing like, it's it has been almost a decade, but it's like, it's not that you have the confidence, it's that you trust so deeply that what you're doing is what you're supposed to be doing, that you do it scared anyways, and that builds the confidence, right? It's like, okay, well, yes, that was a good class, or that was a good day, or that was an amazing session, or this person told me for the first time, or they told me that this was the first time they've ever felt seen or understood by anyone. And I'm like, the first time in your sometimes, what, 72 years like, I work with people of all ages that you felt seen like that? It's not for me. It's like, wait, I think I'm I think I'm helping people. I think maybe I can do this. And it's not that I, you know, you go into that that session being like, yes, I'm fantastic. You know, you hope that you you gain that confidence along the way, but it really is about like doing it scared because everyone is gonna problem. Most people will tell you not to, and even the people that are encouraging. You can feel their doubt. You know, you can feel that they're like, I hope this works for you, not you got this. You can do this. So it's like, you have to be that for yourself, right? And I remember too for me, I was like, well, this is either going to happen or it's not. But it's either going to not today, or it's going to not ever, and it is going to happen at some point, but those are the only two options. So I'm either going to choose that it's not or I'm going to keep walking this path, hoping and encouraging myself and showing up for myself and these people and making it happen. And if universe comes in the way and stops me and I fall on my butt. Okay. It wasn't supposed to happen, but I would rather it's kind of like I better to have loved and lost than never to have lost at all and then never to have loved at all. Yeah, right, like I'm rather going to go down this path. Then maybe the reason I not do it because I listen to all of these people and all of these old stories and everything else, like, makes no sense. And this is also what I've learned through channeling. God is literally begging you to just listen to yourself, to just do the thing that's like one of the main sole reasons that are that we choose to, if you believe in this, that you choose to incarnate in human form, is to get to do stuff, spirit, doesn't we I mean, I'm sure it does. I know that it does things, but it doesn't have this vessel. We don't get to be on this amazing, beautiful planet, connecting with other people like we chose to be here, and that was always a driving factor to me, is, like you chose to be here, what are you going to do with this life? Are you really going to waste it doing something that you didn't want to do, you know. Lesley Logan 36:24  And like, you just, what it brought up for me is, like, better to have loved than than and lost and never have loved at all. Better to go down the path. And why do we consider it a failure, right? Unless, instead of like, oh, it actually led you to this. Like, if you hadn't gone to corporate, you wouldn't have been interested in health coaching, because you're like, I hate this. And then with health coaching, you're like, oh, I really like this yoga. And I didn't hear you once say, well, I failed as a yogi, but I really like the philosophy. I didn't hear that at all. I heard you say that led me to this, and this led me to this. And I think it's a way of us reframing, like, what is failure as a instead of like, what is it actually guiding us towards? Everything we do, everything we learn from it, is guiding us to the next thing, and it's giving us the knowledge we need to do whatever we're supposed to be doing, you know, like, so, I mean, I just think that that's just a takeaway from your story is, like, really, truly, how can we, how can we actually just reframe that everything is just part of the path. It's all part of the journey. Frances Naudé 37:16  Stepping stones, and even using that, like, applying that forward, like, if you look back at your life, you like, if people are in a state of feeling stuck or lost or confused, it's like, okay, well, what can I learn like if I look backwards, what are the things like okay this led me to. This led me to. This led me to this. Was I operating from a place of excitement, or was I operating from a place of fear or escapism, trying to get out of something, right? And so it's like, I work with so many people who have regret, and they're like, why didn't I do this? Or I feel so lost, or I don't know. It's like, let's not, you know, bash yourself for any past decisions. Let's learn from them. Exactly as you said, it's like, I literally see it in my mind's eye as stairs like you want to stay on this stair. This isn't the destination. It's up there. So we have to go, and it's going to be hard and we're going to get tired, but, like, really using it as a tool to learn from whatever it is that you've experienced.Lesley Logan 38:14  Yeah, oh my god, this conversation has been so fun. I'm just so grateful that we connected. Like, I've I really have wanted to, like, have this as a topic and as more personal, but also, like, I feel like, even though the the topic is tarot, the true actual thing is, like trusting yourself, just like just trusting yourself. And if we can do that, we can, we can be it till we see it on anything. Frances, I could talk to you forever but I want to take a brief break and then find out how people can find you, follow you, and work with you. Lesley Logan 38:42  Okay, Frances, where do you hang out? Where can we send people? They're ready to nerd out. They want, they want to understand how to trust themselves. Where they where can they go? Frances Naudé 38:52  So I'm on Instagram and Tiktok and YouTube and all the places it's @FrancesNaude, F-R-A-N-C-E-S-N-A-U-D-E and francesnaude.com is my website. I do sessions for people all over the world remotely, and I also have a small studio space in Orange County, California. So if you are nearby, hit me up and we can meet in person. But yeah, in the in the online space, I do free tarot card readings every Monday on YouTube and share all kinds of stuff on Instagram and trying to get on TikTok. But I'm not gonna lie, I am definitely a millennial, so.Lesley Logan 39:30  I see you. I feel you. The girl I just interviewed before this. She's like, I post on there, but don't DM or comment. I won't respond. And I was like, yeah, my team keeps threatening to do it. And I was like, I just can't, like, there's just I can't do it. YouTube and Instagram are enough, and maybe one is a dying breed, and it's I'm okay, but my people are there because they don't want to do it. You know, so I feel you, millennials unite. Okay. You've given us so much already, but bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people can take to be it to be it till they see it. What do you have for us? Frances Naudé 40:00  As mentioned, learn how to hear and trust your intuition that is going to be that is going to lead you down the best path in any way, if you're in a challenging situation, if you are feeling inspired do that. And so may I give a brief practice for how to do that, because. Lesley Logan 40:02  I would love one, because there are perfectionists listening and they would like the step by step plan, please.Frances Naudé 40:25  Okay, amazing, amazing, amazing. So, yeah, someone telling you, trust your intuition is like someone saying, just be positive, right? It Like It's, it's a great piece of guidance. But how do we do that? So my practice is choose something that you do every single day that's a decision. Okay? So whether it is picking out like, let's say you love a certain flavor of tea, and every morning you like to make your tea, you're going to pick your tea bag, right? They're all the same. What tea bag? What is the tea bag that you're choosing? And then pause once you grabbed it and check in with your body. What does that feel like in your body? You can do this at the grocery store, right? You need, I don't know, five oranges and there's 100 in front of you, right? Which are the five that you're picking? Logic is going to come in a little bit. Maybe that one, the skin is broken, or that one's dirty, or whatever. But between 10 perfect oranges and you're only buying five, when you grab the orange that feels right to you, stop for a second. What does that feel like in your body? What does that feel like in your energy? What does that feel like in your head? Start to practice. I actually practice this with my underwear when I'm choosing my underwear every day, because I know that it's something that I'm going to be doing every single day. What is the underwear? And it's so funny, sometimes I'll touch this black pair and it's not the right one. And so I touch the other black pair. I'm like, yeah, this is the one. There is no I'm like, fathomable reason why the underwear is the right underwear. They're the exact same. But that is my daily practice, because then, when it comes to big decisions, you've already built that muscle. You already know how to use it. You already know how to trust it. Your intuition often will not make logical sense and it will not be loud. People always expect these really big like moments or like the clouds part and the sun shines through. Intuition is really quiet. So step three is, or item number three with that is, it's going to be quiet, but now it's, we have to make space for it. That is the piece to be able to hear it, right? It's, it's so important. So even going back to tarot or meditation or walking outside, or whatever it is, you have to make space to hear your intuition, because, again, building that muscle. When things are loud, you want to already have it built right? It's kind of like. Lesley Logan 42:55  Yeah, I hear you. It's just like it when, when there's so much noise around you, if you aren't attuned to that quiet voice, you're not going to hear it. You have to like, yeah, yeah. That makes so much sense to me. And you are correct. I can think of two times three actually. Now I think three times my life where I heard that intuition, and it is so, so quiet, so quiet. And if you aren't you might could miss it. You can go, what is that? You know?Frances Naudé 43:23  And it also feels, I also like to tell people, your intuition often feels like a thought, but how to be able to differentiate it is, you'll be like, either, yes, it'll be very quiet, or you'll be like, where did that come from? Like, why was I thinking that, right? Oh, and I was saying, like, intuition often leads you down the scary path. Yeah, you know that that the because, it has to. It's expanding that comfort zone. It's getting that wider. It's also going to challenge your beliefs, your old stories that were probably not even written by you, and your fears, right? It's expanding you wider. It's getting you out of that comfort zone. And so as you are learning to work with your intuition, I also encourage you to learn you can choose the word that fits for you. I call it your highest self, but this could be your true self. This could be your soul self, whatever the word is for you, the place that exists without ego. And when I say ego, I mean the human brain, so fears, worries, anxieties, etc. And without we talked about this a lot, without the other, so, other people's stories, other people's fears. A lot of us have other people's fears, specifically our family members, going back, sometimes generations. We don't even know we have them. I work a lot with this in Reiki, where they're not ours. It doesn't even apply to us in our in our situation, but we've been conditioned so making sure that you know who that highest self is, that soul self is. I am Frances, and I, you know we're talking in present tense so I live an intuitively aligned life, which means I let joy lead I do not let fear get in my way, and I live in unity with all that's around me, right? And so if I can identify those three pillars to what my soul self is, every decision I make should be aligned with those three things, and then combine it with that intuitive strength, you're just walking that aligned path like no matter what, it's going to be scary, there's going to be challenges. We're still human. But that is truly like, what I've learned through my personal practice, through working with other people, is that key. So, if nothing else, learn how, like, start developing that intuitive muscle, because it is imperative for daily decisions, and also those, those big ones when they come.Lesley Logan 45:52  Yeah, oh gosh, so good. You're so good. Frances, thank you so much. I can not only imagine, like, how many people down the road are like, thank God I heard that, because I can now say that you trust yourself, and I think that's one of the biggest gifts we can give people today. So thank you for being here and sharing all this with us. Guys, how are you going to use these tips in your life? Make sure you tag Frances. Tag the Be It Pod, share this with a friend who needs to hear it. I want to know. I definitely want to know what your takeaways are I'm just so grateful for this connection and you guys until next time, Be It Till You See It. Lesley Logan 46:22  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod. Brad Crowell 47:04  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 47:10  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 47:14  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 47:21  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 47:24  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy