Episode #21 Double standards in education

In this episode, Greg and Caiti dive into AITSL’s review of the Australian Professional Standards for Teachers, exploring some of the proposed changes, the responses to the discussion paper, and a rather interesting discrepancy between the views of teachers and initial teacher education providers on high-impact teaching practices. There’s also the chance to have your say in the survey before November 20, linked in the show notes.The conversation then turns to a new development in the ongoing saga surrounding the secret KPMG evaluation of AERO, following revelations about this being released in the Sydney Morning Herald and the apparent divide between teachers and academics. We unpack the controversy, the reactions that followed, and ask whether there might be some double standards at play when it comes to how evidence and educational organisations are scrutinised by different parties.We next turn our attention to oracy: the new popular - or unpopular - word in education. What is it? Why is everyone suddenly talking about it? And did we really need to invent a new word for speaking and listening?Finally, we take a quick digital detox and talk about what’s happening with screentime in Australian schools.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Have your say - Review of the Teacher Standards | AITSL* aitsl’s review of the teaching standards: the good, the bad and the vaguely defined | Caiti Wade | The Disruptive Educator* Academics versus the teachers: Secret report exposes education rift | Christopher Harris | Sydney Morning Herald* aero, academics and the great education disconnect | Caiti Wade | The Disruptive Educator* The made-up word that got me into trouble | Greg Ashman | Filling the Pail* Oracy for the masses, Latin for the elite? | Greg Ashman | Filling the Pail* A Digital Detox - Department of Education, Australian GovernmentAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

After a bit of a sidestep into how we’re each using AI, Greg and Caiti jump into a conversation about ‘rote learning’ and a startling claim that it’s driving preservice teachers out of the profession. We argue that explicit teaching is more than just slide decks and explore how teacher training, shared curriculum and school-system structures shape successful implementation.The conversation then moves onto the brilliant Sold a Story podcast and some of the reactions to it, including the arguments being made against it. Greg and Caiti unpack some of these criticisms, discuss the difference between Direct Instruction (‘big DI’) and direct instruction (‘little DI’), and consider what the debate reveals about how evidence-informed teaching is represented and challenged.Finally, we discover that the fight against fascism might be simpler than we thought: apparently, all you need to do is not listen to podcasts. At least, that’s the case according to one rather interesting response to Sold a Story.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Why ‘rote learning’ mandate is driving new teachers away | The Adelaide* Rote is back. Or at least something very like it - EduResearch Matters* Sold a Story | Podcast* The argument against Sold a Story that proves why we need it | Filling the Pail Substack* Selling a story that’s lost the plot - by Benjamin Riley* Curios of the week #190 - by Greg Ashman - Filling The Pail* Direct instruction is the American default | Michael PershanAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

What even is restorative practice? That’s a question that Greg and Caiti try to answer on this week’s episode of When Will They Learn? podcast. Spurred on by recent newspaper coverage on restorative practice, they delve into what it is and whether it could be effective - and what for. The conversation centres around consequences and whether ‘punitive’ measures are considered consequences in restorative practice models, and more broadly, what the role of consequences is within education. The conversation then moves onto a pretty bad newspaper headline that doesn’t at all reflect research conducted by Trisha Jha for the Centre for Independent Studies. We talk about what the newest paper by CIS covers, some of the media reaction to it, and learning styles - the neuromyth that never dies.Finally, we move onto talking about the decline of results in Wales and the reasons for this. We talk about curriculum, phonics and whether or not Wales is likely to follow on from the likes of England. And when we thought it was over, another detail in the ongoing mystery of ACPUE enters the chat.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Restorative justice: Why Vic parents and experts say school bullying fix is failing kids | Herald Sun* Curios of the week #188 - by Greg Ashman - Filling The Pail* Caiti’s recent Substack: the convenient argument - by Caiti Wade - The Disruptive Educator* Nine in 10 teachers ‘getting it wrong’ in Australian classrooms / The other title | Herald Sun* Knowledge-is-Power-Pt-II.pdf | CIS paper | Trisha Jha* Trisha Jha’s Substack on Knowledge is Power Pt II* Wales has the UK’s worst school results by far. We investigated why | ITVNews* ACPUE Preprint Paper | Do the sources support the claims? Claim–source correspondence in an Australian evidence-intermediary reportAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

In this episode, Greg and Caiti begin with ACPUE, who are back to reassure everyone that their work is absolutely not a targeted attack on AERO, despite it appearing as though it is exactly that. We look at the newest defence of their work and how that stands up against their own claims and the broader suite of future projects listed on their website. From there, we head to the UK (figuratively) and Lucy Powell’s address on the future of schooling, including proposals for new vocational pathways, all coming through the wonderfully optimistic-sounding Department for Hope. Unfortunately, the proposals and history of education reforms in the UK might suggest that there are lesser grounds for hope than one might hope with these new pathways.Then it’s back to Australia for a discussion of ten strawmen of the Science of Learning. We work through some of Penny Van Bergen’s terrific arguments against the made-up versions of the Science of Learning that are often seen posted all over media.And finally, just when we thought we were done, a university posts something that stops us in our tracks. Listen to find out more about the big shocker.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Academics behind new AERO critique say it’s no targeted take down — EducationHQ* Episode #16 A Load of ACPUE | When Will They Learn? Podcast | Caiti Wade and Greg Ashman* Attacking AERO the pedantic way | Greg Ashman, Filling the Pail* Who is behind the Australian Centre for the Public Understanding of Education? | Greg Ashman, Filling the Pail* what’s the deal with acpue? | Caiti Wade, The Disruptive Educator* Projects · Australian Centre for the Public Understanding of Education | ACPUE* Deputy leader Lucy Powell addresses party conference - her speech in full - LabourList* Bringing back stupid - by Greg Ashman - Filling The Pail* The Ten Strawmen of the Science of Learning - EduResearch Matters | Penny Van Bergen* Find out what kind of learner you are | Open Universities* Learning Styles: Concepts and Evidence - PubMed | Pashler et al. Acknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

In this episode, Greg and Caiti start with a deceptively simple question: is the Australian Curriculum anti-boy - and more to the point, what even is anti-boy? We talk about the manosphere (again!) and the challenges schools and individual teachers face when teaching consent and respectful relationships. We also look at the role teacher bias can play in teaching these topics, and what effective teaching in this space might actually look like - and Caiti shares an example of where this has been taught well.From there, we head into the increasingly chaotic world of PISA and all the PISA cope taking up our social media feeds in the last week. That takes us to England, where we talk about why their PISA results are so significant, but also the discourse around this. And of course, Finland gets a mention, because - would you believe - we’re still talking about Finland’s results.Along the way, there are Twitter/X debates, LinkedIn articles, competing interpretations of the exact same data, and a bit of a side-step into behaviour in Australian classrooms - because we hadn’t opened enough cans of worms already.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Is Australia’s school system ‘anti-boy’? | Amanda Keddie* PISA 2025 offers telling tale about what really constitutes a good education system — EducationHQ | Greg Ashman* PISA cope in the pages of tes magazine - by Greg Ashman* Our Kids Are Two Years Behind Where They Were in 2000. I’ve Been Looking for the Countries That Can Show Us the Way Back | Adam Voigt* The Prophet Motive - by Greg Ashman * Real Finnish Lessons | Gabriel Heller Sahlgren* Classrooms in Crisis: Australian teacher views on student behaviour - The Centre for Independent Studies | Blaise JosephAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

Disclaimer: The details of what is known about ACPUE were true at the time of recording this episode. Since recording and release, more details may have come to light. In this episode, Greg and Caiti talk about researchED Canberra - including propellors on planes, pies, and some of the main takeaways from the day, particularly focusing on what it actually takes to make schoolwide change happen. From there, we shift to Jenny Donovan’s keynote presentation on writing, which sends us directly into a conversation about AERO and the Australian Centre for the Public Understanding of Education, or ACPUE. Who are ACPUE? Where did they come from? What does this have to do with AERO? We discuss all of these questions, and why these, and broader transparency and research integrity matter so much. Finally, we finish with a conversation about lethal mutations, drawing on an article by Dr Haili Hughes. We chat about what they are, how good ideas can become distorted and some common examples of lethal mutations in the classroom.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* No Capitals in the Capital: Caiti’s Summary of researchED Canberra | The Disruptive Educator* AERO’s School writing instruction framework resources* Brendan Lee on Different Types of Learning | Brendan Lee* Attacking AERO the pedantic way | Greg Ashman, Filling the Pail* Who is behind the Australian Centre for the Public Understanding of Education? | Greg Ashman, Filling the Pail* what’s the deal with acpue? | Caiti Wade, The Disruptive Educator* How students learn best: An overview of the evidence | by AERO | “A really great read” to quote Caiti* The Australian Centre for the Public Understanding of Education Website* Lethal Mutations in the Classroom: When Good Techniques Go Bad | Dr Haili Hughes SubstackAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

This week we deep dive researchED Melbourne and some of the highlights from the recent conference, including conversations and recurring themes from the day. This includes stories about “sailor dudes”, malt wort, terrible attempts at Australian nicknames and lethal mutations of cognitive science. Obviously.Next, we switch to a new paper by Kean Poon and John Sweller that considers a reconceptualisation of cognitive load theory within special education, and how instructional practices and learnings from this dense body of research might have an application in special education. In particular, we unpack the distinction between biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge, and the idea that some things we assume students will acquire naturally may function more like biologically secondary knowledge - and of course, the learnings we can take from research into instructional design if this is the case.Finally, it wouldn’t be a topical Australian education podcast without a discussion of everyone’s favourite annual education discourse event: NAPLAN. Obviously. This time, prompted by a piece written by Pamela Snow, we discuss the pattern of persistent underperformance in NAPLAN results by around a third of Australian students, the impacts of this on students both in school and post school, and some flaws within this assessment system itself. It’s going to be a fun one! Obviously.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Inspired by researchED Melbourne? researchED Canberra is coming up! Tickets have sold out, but access the waitlist here* Applying cognitive load theory to special education: a reconceptualisation through evolutionary psychology | Poon & Sweller, 2026* The Snow Report: NAPLAN – safety net or tangled net? | Pamela SnowAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

This week we’re serving up the latest education scandal: the scandal du jour!Before we get into that though, we start off by talking about the Australian Professional Standards for Teachers, specifically referencing the review of the standards. And if you’re an early-bird listener, you can respond to Caiti’s call to action below and get in on the review yourself! Along the way, we unpack the purpose of the standards and whether they really align with that, or even support best practice in the classroom.Next, we dive into Daisy Christodoulou’s latest piece on transferable skills. This is a refreshing take on a popular topic in education discourse, acknowledging why transferable skills are so desirable, and why the research doesn’t support teaching them. Finally, we tackle the scandal du jour: the allegations surrounding Jason Arday. Rather than focusing on the individual, we explore the bigger question of institutional responsibility. What happens when universities, publishers and the wider academic ecosystem all have opportunities to ask difficult questions but don’t?Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Review of the Teacher Standards - Closes August 7th - Caiti’s Call to Action for our listeners* What should an Australian teacher look like now? This is your chance to help decide - AARE* Australian Professional Teacher Standards | AITSL* The Problem with Transferable Skills | Daisy Christodoulou | American Enterprise Institute - AEI* Playbooks, plagiarism and a pig’s head: new claims surrounding a star Cambridge professor | University of Cambridge | The Guardian* Leave Jason Arday alone - this is a scandal of academic educational leadership | Stephen VainkerAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

This week, we begin with the remarkable story of Mossbourne Victoria Park Academy, exploring how one of England’s highest-performing schools found itself at the centre of controversy over discipline, behaviour, and what happens when a school is accused of being too strict. Greg takes us through the long and fascinating history behind the headlines, raising questions about whether the media really does present the full picture.From there, we discuss the persistent gender imbalance in senior mathematics subjects, unpacking what the evidence says about why these patterns remain and the assumptions that often dominate public debate.Finally, we turn to the use of parent/guardian behaviour contracts in schools, considering what they reveal about the changing relationship between schools and families, where responsibility for student behaviour begins and ends, and why these policies generate such strong reactions.Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* The school punished for being too strict | Mossbourne Victoria Park Academy* VCE maths enrolments: Victorian student numbers rebound after pandemic slump but gender gap persists* Private school parent behaviour: Why elite schools are introducing mandatory contracts to combat rising entitlementAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

This week, we’re talking education gossip - not the staffroom kind, but the stories that dominate headlines and social media before anyone has had time to think them through.We start by discussing the debate surrounding school suspensions, isolation, and behaviour management, following on from last episode’s conversation. Along the way, we explore how schools are portrayed in the media and how public narratives can shape perceptions of education.From there, we turn our attention to science education in Australasia before the conversation inevitably drifts into internet arguments, education social media, and why online debates seem so determined to turn every issue into a binary.Finally, we wrap up with a discussion about working-class students in the UK, using a recent news story to reflect on disadvantage, opportunity, and the stories we choose to tell about education.Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Isolation as a form of discipline: how should schools manage poor student behaviour?* No one pedagogy is best: science academics call out ‘binary’ debates in new blueprint — EducationHQ* [Warning: EXPLICIT] How to Disagree | Paul Graham* White working-class children 'failed by schools system'Acknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com