The Marketing Advice Every Business Needs with Dan Kelsall | Backed by Funding Circle

Luke Tobin has built and sold three businesses. The big one was Digital Ethos, which he took from launch to an eight-figure exit in under five years, making it one of the fastest agency growth-to-exit stories in UK history. He sold to Cadastra, South America's largest independent agency group, in late 2022, then ran EMEA for the combined business. He now invests and operates through Unusual Group, Tobin Capital and Succeed, and won the Great British Entrepreneur Awards in 2020. Backed by Funding Circle. Funding Circle is business finance that backs you. Business loans, a flexible line of credit and a cashback business card for UK businesses, with a decision in as little as an hour. If you are looking for funding to take the next step, check them out here: https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Luke joins hosts Jack Frimston and Zac Thompson at Ideas Fest to explain how he built an agency buyers wanted, what actually drives an agency's valuation, and why most founders undersell their life's work when they exit. Along the way: [three or four specifics pulled from the episode]. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Welcome to the Show: Meet Luke Tobin, Marketing Agency Founder Who Scaled to Exit 00:00:26 The Cash Flow Reality Check: Why Managing Runway Makes or Breaks Your Business 00:00:56 The Borrowing Money Philosophy: Get More Than Just Cash and Service Your Debt 00:01:40 Day One of Your Business: Check Market Fit and Talk to Real Customers 00:02:34 The Best Business Advice: Work Your Current Network Better 00:03:15 Ignore the Easy Money Hype: Entrepreneurship Is Graft, Not Rock and Roll 00:03:39 The Most Underrated Skill: Leverage Self-Doubt and Move Through Fear 00:04:20 What Separates Winners from Everyone Else: Take the Chance on Yourself 00:04:50 Winning Your First Customer: Solve Their Pain Points and Speak Directly to Them 00:05:15 Closing Thoughts: Business Finance That Backs You with Funding Circle #BackedByFundingCircle #FundingCircle #LukeTobin #DigitalEthos #UnusualGroup #IdeasFest #AgencyOwner #SmallBusinessUK #BusinessFinance #FounderStory #Entrepreneur #WeHaveAMeeting #Manchester Connect with Luke Tobin: Website: https://www.luketobin.com Unusual Group: https://www.unusualgroup.com Tobin Capital: https://www.tobincapital.co.uk LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luketobin Hear more from the hosts: Jack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-frimston-5010177b Zac: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-thompson-33a9a39b Brought to you by Funding Circle: business finance that backs you. See how they could back your business at https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Subscribe to We Have A Meeting: new episodes every week with founders, sales leaders and entrepreneurs who've built it from the ground up.

Piers Linney is best known as a Dragon on BBC's Dragons' Den. These days he is building the workforce of the future. The entrepreneur and investor, with a background in law and finance, is Executive Chairman and co-founder of Implement AI, which deploys teams of AI digital workers for businesses and was named AI Start-Up of the Year (London) at the UK Startup Awards 2025. He co-hosts The Implement AI Podcast, is a LinkedIn Top AI Voice, holds an MBE and is an in-demand keynote speaker on AI, technology and the future of work. Backed by Funding Circle. Funding Circle is business finance that backs you. Business loans, a flexible line of credit and a cashback business card for UK businesses, with a decision in as little as an hour. If you are looking for funding to take the next step, check them out here: https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Piers joins hosts Jack Frimston and Zac Thompson at Ideas Fest to break down how founders can put AI to work, grow their business and stay ahead of the curve. CHAPTERS #BackedByFundingCircle #FundingCircle #PiersLinney #DragonsDen #ImplementAI #ArtificialIntelligence #AIForBusiness #FutureOfWork #IdeasFest #SmallBusinessUK #BusinessFinance #Entrepreneur #WeHaveAMeeting Connect with Piers Linney: Website: https://www.pierslinney.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pierslinney/ Implement AI: https://www.implementai.io The Implement AI Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/implement-ai-podcast/id1694738741 Hear more from the hosts: Jack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-frimston-5010177b Zac: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-thompson-33a9a39b Brought to you by Funding Circle: business finance that backs you. See how they could back your business at https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Subscribe to We Have A Meeting: new episodes every week with founders, sales leaders and entrepreneurs who've built it from the ground up.

Backed by Funding Circle. Funding Circle is business finance that backs you. Business loans, a flexible line of credit and a cashback business card for UK businesses, with a decision in as little as an hour. If you are looking for funding to take the next step, check them out here: https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Lea Turner was a tattooed, pierced school dropout who'd worked minimum wage jobs her whole life. In 2019 she was a single mum running a small transcription business and relying on government support. Then she started posting on LinkedIn as herself, and it changed everything. She grew to more than 170,000 followers, built a LinkedIn training business that turned over £500k in its first year, and trained individuals and companies around the world. In December 2024 she hung up her tiara to focus on The HoLT, her membership community for freelancers, solopreneurs and small business owners, and hosts The HoLT's Survival Guide for Small Businesses podcast. Lea joins hosts Jack Frimston and Zac Thompson at Ideas Fest to explain why being yourself is a business strategy, how she turned LinkedIn posts into a half-million-pound business, and why she walked away from it to build a community instead. Along the way: [three or four specifics pulled from the episode]. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Welcome to the Show: Meet Lea Turner, Community Builder Solving Solopreneur Loneliness 00:01:09 The Cash Flow Reality Check: Pay Your Team on Time, Every Time 00:01:51 The Borrowing Money Philosophy: Read the Fine Print and Know Your Limits 00:02:19 Day One of Your Business: Start With Sales Conversations and Real Research 00:03:15 The Best Business Advice: Don't Work With Anyone Who Drains Your Energy 00:04:30 Ignore the Scaling Pressure: Build a Business That Fits Your Life 00:05:37 The Most Underrated Skill: People Skills and Being Likeable 00:06:03 What Separates Winners from Everyone Else: Be Ruthless or Be Genuinely Kind 00:07:00 Winning Your First Customer: Listen More Than You Speak 00:07:34 Closing Thoughts: Business Finance That Backs You with Funding Circle #BackedByFundingCircle #FundingCircle #LeaTurner #TheHoLT #LinkedIn #PersonalBrand #IdeasFest #SmallBusinessUK #BusinessFinance #FounderStory #Entrepreneur #WeHaveAMeeting #Manchester Connect with Lea Turner: The HoLT: https://www.the-holt.com Website: https://www.leaturner.co.uk LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lea-turner Hear more from the hosts: Jack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-frimston-5010177b Zac: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-thompson-33a9a39b Brought to you by Funding Circle: business finance that backs you. See how they could back your business at https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Subscribe to We Have A Meeting: new episodes every week with founders, sales leaders and entrepreneurs who've built it from the ground up.

Matt Elwell is the co-founder and director of Elite Closing Academy and one of the UK's most in-demand sales trainers. He's the bestselling author of Open With A Close and Cold To Sold, and used the same methods to help grow two family businesses to over £17 million in revenue. Now he teaches founders, business owners and experts how to sell without feeling like a salesperson. Backed by Funding Circle. Funding Circle is business finance that backs you. Business loans, a flexible line of credit and a cashback business card for UK businesses, with a decision in as little as an hour. If you are looking for funding to take the next step, check them out here: https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Matt joins hosts Jack Frimston and Zac Thompson at Ideas Fest to explain why brilliant founders struggle to sell, what it actually means to open with a close, and how to turn a sales call into something that feels like a service. Along the way: [three or four specifics pulled from the episode]. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Welcome to the Show: Meet Matt Elwell, Sales Expert and Business Owner 00:00:48 The Cash Flow Reality Check: Get Serious About Getting Paid 00:01:50 The Borrowing Money Philosophy: De-Risk with a Clear Vision 00:02:42 Day One of Your Business: Find One Customer and Get Them a Result 00:05:08 The Best Business Advice: Take More Responsibility for the Reward You Want 00:06:42 Ignore the Bad Advice: Fake It Till You Make It and People Buy from People 00:07:42 The Most Underrated Skill: Managing Your Own State and Inner Game 00:10:22 What Separates Winners from Everyone Else: Purpose and Guiding Principles 00:12:07 Winning Your First Customer: Solve a Real Problem or Deliver a Desired Outcome 00:13:53 Closing Thoughts: Success Brings Success, Learn or Win #BackedByFundingCircle #FundingCircle #MattElwell #EliteClosingAcademy #OpenWithAClose #IdeasFest #SalesTraining #SmallBusinessUK #BusinessFinance #FounderStory #Entrepreneur #WeHaveAMeeting #Manchester Connect with Matt Elwell: Elite Closing Academy: https://eliteclosingacademy.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-elwell-sales-trainer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/matthewelwellECA Hear more from the hosts: Jack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-frimston-5010177b Zac: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-thompson-33a9a39b Brought to you by Funding Circle: business finance that backs you. See how they could back your business at https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Subscribe to We Have A Meeting: new episodes every week with founders, sales leaders and entrepreneurs who've built it from the ground up.

Ella McCrystal has spent 20 years helping people rewire how they think. Now she applies the same neuroscience to running a business. The accredited psychotherapist, clinical hypnotherapist and EMDR practitioner is Director of The Northampton Clinic, a multi-disciplinary private health clinic in the heart of Northampton. She is also a business coach, published author, TEDx speaker, founder of The Neurolectric Method and host of The New Mind Podcast, coaching leaders across business, sport and the arts to reach their full potential. Backed by Funding Circle. Funding Circle is business finance that backs you. Business loans, a flexible line of credit and a cashback business card for UK businesses, with a decision in as little as an hour. If you are looking for funding to take the next step, check them out here: https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Ella joins hosts Jack Frimston and Zac Thompson at Ideas Fest to break down what therapy can teach founders about mindset, pressure and building a business that lasts. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Welcome to the Show: Meet Ella McCrystal, Psychotherapist, Trauma Specialist, and Business Owner 00:00:51 The Cash Flow Reality Check: Think Outside the Box and Don't Fear Money 00:02:33 The Borrowing Money Philosophy: Know Who You're Borrowing From and Whether You Can Pay It Back 00:03:16 Day One of Your Business: Start With What You Love, Not What Makes Money 00:04:06 The Best Business Advice: Avoid Certainty and Build Real Friendships in Your Industry 00:05:00 Ignore the Money Chase: Why Chasing Cash Makes You Narcissistic 00:05:36 The Most Underrated Skill: Communication and Transparency Win Every Time 00:06:06 What Separates Winners from Everyone Else: Passion and Love for What You Do 00:06:52 Winning Your First Customer: Show Up in Person and Build Real Relationships 00:07:47 Closing Thoughts: Business Finance That Backs You with Funding Circle #BackedByFundingCircle #FundingCircle #EllaMcCrystal #Psychotherapy #Mindset #Neuroscience #FounderMindset #IdeasFest #SmallBusinessUK #BusinessFinance #Entrepreneur #WeHaveAMeeting Connect with Ella McCrystal: Website: https://ellamccrystal.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ella-mccrystal-3ab0a137/ The Northampton Clinic: https://northamptonclinic.co.uk/about-ella/ X: https://twitter.com/ellamccrystal Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ellamccrystalhypno/ Hear more from the hosts: Jack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-frimston-5010177b Zac: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-thompson-33a9a39b Brought to you by Funding Circle: business finance that backs you. See how they could back your business at https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Subscribe to We Have A Meeting: new episodes every week with founders, sales leaders and entrepreneurs who've built it from the ground up.

Donna O'Toole spent years inside the awards industry watching great businesses miss out on recognition. So she built a company to fix it. The founder of August Recognition, part of Daniel Priestley's Dent Global group, has helped hundreds of businesses from start-ups to FTSE 100s win the awards that matter, including The King's Awards for Enterprise. She is a national and international awards judge, one of the world's Top 25 Customer Experience Influencers and the bestselling author of WIN!, the ultimate guide to winning awards. Backed by Funding Circle. Funding Circle is business finance that backs you. Business loans, a flexible line of credit and a cashback business card for UK businesses, with a decision in as little as an hour. If you are looking for funding to take the next step, check them out here: https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Donna joins hosts Jack Frimston and Zac Thompson at Ideas Fest to break down how founders can use awards to raise their profile, build trust and grow their business. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Welcome to the Show: Meet Donna O'Toole, the Award Queen Who Helps Businesses Get Recognition 00:00:28 The Cash Flow Reality Check: Forecast Three Months Ahead and Treat It Like Your Bible 00:00:53 The Borrowing Money Philosophy: Don't Be Scared, It's a Growth Driver 00:01:19 Day One of Your Business: Productize Your Idea and Build a Sustainable Ecosystem 00:01:54 The Best Business Advice: Put Your Personal Brand Front and Center 00:02:27 Ignore the Shiny Objects: Niche Down and Stay Focused on What You're Great At 00:03:02 The Most Underrated Skill: People Development and Team Management 00:03:40 What Separates Winners from Everyone Else: Avoiding Distractions and Staying Niche 00:04:16 Winning Your First Customer: Build Strategic Relationships and Partnerships 00:04:54 Closing Thoughts: Quick Fire Answers and Where to Find Funding Circle #BackedByFundingCircle #FundingCircle #DonnaOToole #AugustAwards #BusinessAwards #PersonalBrand #Marketing #IdeasFest #SmallBusinessUK #BusinessFinance #Entrepreneur #WeHaveAMeeting Connect with Donna O'Toole: August Awards: https://www.augustawards.com Website: https://www.donnaotoole.com Winning Awards podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/18JwzG3TXFwOYBMaJnhqyT LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnaotoole/ Hear more from the hosts: Jack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-frimston-5010177b Zac: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-thompson-33a9a39b Brought to you by Funding Circle: business finance that backs you. See how they could back your business at https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Subscribe to We Have A Meeting: new episodes every week with founders, sales leaders and entrepreneurs who've built it from the ground up.

Dan Kelsall built one of LinkedIn's loudest personal brands by refusing to sound like everyone else on LinkedIn. The Manchester creative founded and exited content agency Offended, now runs the University of Creative Idiots and TaxTickle, and wrote the marketing books Fcking Good Content and This Is Fcking Sh*t. Backed by Funding Circle. Funding Circle is business finance that backs you. Business loans, a flexible line of credit and a cashback business card for UK businesses, with a decision in as little as an hour. If you are looking for funding to take the next step, check them out here: https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Dan joins hosts Jack Frimston and Zac Thompson at Ideas Fest to break down why brave, polarising content wins clients, and why playing it safe keeps you invisible. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Welcome to the Show: Meet Dan Kelsall, the Marketer Who Does What He Wants 00:01:16 The Cash Flow Reality Check: Why Three Months Isn't Enough 00:03:26 The Borrowing Money Philosophy: Know Your Terms and Don't Get Fucked on Interest 00:04:38 Day One of Your Business: Test the Market Before You Spend a Penny 00:07:02 The Best Business Advice: Stop Listening to Absolutes and Don't Copy Others 00:09:15 Ignore the Authenticity Trend: Why Relatability Beats Being Your True Self 00:11:10 The Most Underrated Skill: Patience Wins Every Single Time 00:14:15 Winning Your First Customer: Outbound Sales and Getting Real Feedback Fast #BackedByFundingCircle #FundingCircle #DanKelsall #PersonalBrand #ContentMarketing #LinkedInMarketing #Copywriting #IdeasFest #SmallBusinessUK #BusinessFinance #Entrepreneur #WeHaveAMeeting #Manchester Connect with Dan Kelsall: X: https://x.com/danjkelsall LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-kelsall/ Website: https://dankelsall.com/ Hear more from the hosts: Jack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-frimston-5010177b Zac: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-thompson-33a9a39b Brought to you by Funding Circle: business finance that backs you. See how they could back your business at https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Subscribe to We Have A Meeting: new episodes every week with founders, sales leaders and entrepreneurs who've built it from the ground up.

Backed by Funding Circle Funding Circle is business finance that backs you. Business loans, a flexible line of credit and a cashback business card for UK businesses, with a decision in as little as an hour. If you are looking for funding to take the next step, check them out here: https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Brothers AJ and Curtis Pritchard from Stoke-on-Trent became two of the best-known faces on British TV. AJ was the youngest ever professional dancer on Strictly Come Dancing and went on to I'm a Celebrity and Celebrity SAS: Who Dares Wins. Curtis finished fourth on Love Island and returned for Love Island: All Stars. Between them they have toured the UK with their own live dance show, starred in Hollyoaks and launched the BrosTorqueSuperCars motoring channel. AJ and Curtis join hosts Jack Frimston and Zac Thompson at Ideas Fest to talk about going from TV to business: why fame doesn't pay the bills, what reality TV never taught them about money, and the best advice they have picked up building a brand beyond the screen. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Welcome to the Show: Meet Curtis and AJ Pritchard, From TV Stars to Investment Platform Co-Founders 00:00:55 The Problem We Solve: Taking the Stress Out of Investing with Fininvest 00:02:29 The Cash Flow Reality Check: Why Nothing Is Guaranteed in the TV Industry 00:04:40 The Borrowing Money Philosophy: Bootstrap First, Spend Money Last 00:06:00 Day One of Your Business: Build a Waitlist and Know Your Audience 00:07:01 The Best Business Advice: Don't Expect It to Happen Overnight and Do Something You Love 00:08:21 The Information Overload Problem: Stay Narrow-Minded vs Take It All In 00:10:12 The Most Underrated Skill: Drive, Willpower, and Just Doing It #BackedByFundingCircle #FundingCircle #AJPritchard #CurtisPritchard #LoveIsland #StrictlyComeDancing #IdeasFest #SmallBusinessUK #BusinessFinance #Entrepreneur #BusinessAdvice #WeHaveAMeeting Connect with AJ and Curtis Pritchard: * AJ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aj11ace * Curtis Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/curtispritchard12 * AJ on X: https://x.com/Aj11Ace * Curtis on X: https://x.com/CurtisPritchard Hear more from the hosts: Jack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-frimston-5010177b Zac: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-thompson-33a9a39b Brought to you by Funding Circle: business finance that backs you. See how they could back your business at https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Subscribe to We Have A Meeting: new episodes every week with founders, sales leaders and entrepreneurs who've built it from the ground up..

Backed by Funding Circle. Funding Circle is business finance that backs you. Business loans, a flexible line of credit and a cashback business card for UK businesses, with a decision in as little as an hour. If you are looking for funding to take the next step, check them out here: https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Chris James started out in telemarketing and now helps founders, coaches and service businesses turn social media content into paying clients. The Manchester-based online business mentor, content strategist, keynote speaker and bestselling author runs the Content To Clients programme, sends a weekly newsletter to 3,000+ entrepreneurs and has shared stages with Daniel Priestley, Chris Do and Davina McCall. Chris joins hosts Jack Frimston and Zac Thompson at Ideas Fest to break down the social media lessons every founder needs. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Welcome to the Show: Meet Chris James, Expert Mindset Coach and Business Builder 00:00:32 The Cash Flow Reality Check: Leading Indicators and Collecting Money Upfront 00:01:16 The Borrowing Money Philosophy: No Credit Cards and Mortgage Freedom 00:02:07 Day One of Your Business: Build Your Business Backwards 00:02:15 The Warm Network Strategy: Why Your First Customers Are Already in Your Phone 00:04:19 The Best Business Advice: No One Gives a Shit, So Just Do It 00:05:29 Ignore the Carbon Copy: Why Following Other People's Success Will Make You Miserable 00:06:14 The Time Management Superpower: Focus, Block Distractions, and Schedule Worry Time 00:07:57 Lower Expectations, Higher Standards: The Mindset Shift That Drives Success 00:09:23 Winning Your First Customer: Make 200 Calls and Collect 100 No's #BackedByFundingCircle #FundingCircle #ChrisJames #SocialMediaMarketing #PersonalBrand #ContentStrategy #IdeasFest #SmallBusinessUK #BusinessFinance #Entrepreneur #WeHaveAMeeting #Manchester Connect with Chris James: * Website: https://www.chris-james.co * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisjamesonline/ * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chrisjamesonline * YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@chrisjamesonline Hear more from the hosts: Jack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-frimston-5010177b Zac: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-thompson-33a9a39b Brought to you by Funding Circle: business finance that backs you. See how they could back your business at https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Subscribe to We Have A Meeting: new episodes every week with founders, sales leaders and entrepreneurs who've built it from the ground up.

Backed by Funding Circle. Funding Circle is business finance that backs you. Business loans, a flexible line of credit and a cashback business card for UK businesses, with a decision in as little as an hour. If you are looking for funding to take the next step, check them out here: https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Chris Gore went from a Liverpool council estate to 13 years in the military to the boardroom. He co-founded SPOR Group with Chris Spence, each putting in £50k, and landed an £800k deal in week six. The Maidenhead workplace technology business now looks after more than 1,500 meeting room sites across the UK, Europe and Asia Pacific, works with clients including the NHS and the NFL, and has just acquired interior design consultancy Squaredot. Chris also writes the Work Isn't Working newsletter on the future of the workplace. Chris joins hosts Jack Frimston and Zac Thompson at Ideas Fest for 12 minutes of no-fluff business advice: the thing most founders get wrong, what to fix before anything else, and what the military taught him about accountability and running a company. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Welcome to the Show: Meet Chris Gore, Co-Founder of Spore Group 00:01:04 The Cash Flow Reality Check: Why It's Priority Number One, Two, and Three 00:01:58 The Borrowing Money Masterclass: Get It Cheap and Know Your Forecast 00:02:54 Day One of Your Business: Test the Market Before You Take a Penny 00:03:44 The Growth Question: Why Scaling Isn't Always the Answer 00:04:57 Ignore the AI Slop: Why Boring Businesses Still Win 00:06:09 The Most Underrated Skill: Talking to Actual Human Beings 00:06:44 The Gary in a Van Problem: Why Systems Beat Hustle Every Time 00:08:10 Closing Thoughts: Liverpool Wins, Handshakes Matter, and People Buy from People #BackedByFundingCircle #FundingCircle #ChrisGore #SPORGroup #IdeasFest #WorkplaceTech #SmallBusinessUK #BusinessFinance #BusinessAdvice #FounderStory #Entrepreneur #WeHaveAMeeting Connect with Chris Gore: * SPOR Group: https://www.wearespor.com * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisgoremba/ * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chrisgore.spor * YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@chrisgorespor Hear more from the hosts: Jack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-frimston-5010177b Zac: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-thompson-33a9a39b Brought to you by Funding Circle: business finance that backs you. See how they could back your business at https://www.fundingcircle.com/uk Subscribe to We Have A Meeting: new episodes every week with founders, sales leaders and entrepreneurs who've built it from the ground up.