129. Chain Drain

Intro/Outro: “Getting Better,” by Shed Seven==Discussed:PeopleDavid Gottfried: guest; co-founder of USGBC, founder of WorldGBC (Wikipedia; Regen360)Mitch Albom: author of Tuesdays with Morrie, Gottfried's model for the book's dialogue format (Wikipedia)Zenobia: third-century queen of Palmyra, namesake of Gottfried's AI thinking partner (Wikipedia)Bryan Boyer: co-author of Chain Drain; Taubman College, University of Michigan William McDonough: architect and Cradle to Cradle co-author, cited as a blurber of Regen 360 (mcdonough.com) Frank Duffy: DEGW co-founder and past RIBA president (Wikipedia; RIBA obituary)Art Gensler: founder of Gensler and a Gottfried mentor (Wikipedia)Anne Lacaton and Jean-Philippe Vassal: 2021 Pritzker laureates known for "never demolish" transformation (Harvard GSD lecture) Patrick Bellew: founder of Atelier Ten; 2023 CTBUH Fazlur R. Khan Lifetime Achievement Award (CVU profile; Atelier Ten announcement)Books and mediaRegen360: An Operating System for a Regenerative Earth, David Gottfried (regen360.net)Explosion Green, David Gottfried's previous book (Wikipedia author page)Tuesdays with Morrie, Mitch Albom (Wikipedia)Unfrozen 129: Chain Drain, with Bryan Boyer and Greg Lindsay (episode)Unfrozen 131: Chatting with Barbarians, with Alexandros Washburn (episode)Chain Drain: Why the Built Environment Struggles to Learn and How to Fix It, Boyer and Lindsay, 2026 (chaindrain.netlify.app)Companies and organizationsU.S. Green Building Council (USGBC) (usgbc.org)World Green Building Council (WorldGBC) (worldgbc.org)USGBC California and Arup: California Wildfire Rebuilding Guide after the 2025 Los Angeles fires (Architect magazine; 2026 update) Gensler (gensler.com) Blue Planet Systems: synthetic limestone aggregate made from captured CO2, a likely match for the carbon-negative concrete sample Gottfried shows (technology)Atelier Ten (atelierten.com)Rivian R2: cited as an example of published vehicle life cycle data (rivian.com)AI tools named: ChatGPT, Claude, Grok, and GeminiCouncil on Vertical Urbanism (CVU), formerly CTBUH (verticalurbanism.org)Standards, codes, and rating systemsLEED (usgbc.org/leed)LEED v5: carbon assessment prerequisite and whole building life cycle assessment (One Click LCA overview; LEEDuser NC-v5 MRc2)BREEAM (breeam.com) Green Star, Green Building Council of Australia (gbca.org.au)WELL Building Standard (wellcertified.com)Environmental Product Declarations (EPDs) and life cycle assessment (LCA)Paris Agreement and COP climate conferences (UNFCCC)Policy and financePACE financing (Property Assessed Clean Energy) (U.S. Department of Energy)Nevada Green Building Tax Abatement and CityCenter, Las Vegas (state project list; Las Vegas Sun)Arlington County, Virginia, Green Building Incentive Policy: bonus density (FAR) for LEED (Arlington County)San Francisco priority permitting for LEED Gold (SF Environment)CTBUH 2023 International Conference, Singapore and Kuala Lumpur, Humanizing High Density (see Atelier Ten announcement above) 

Intro: “Miss the Start, Miss the End,” by SparksInterstitial: “She Blinded Me with Science,” by Thomas DolbyOutro: “You’ll Never Walk Alone,” by Rodgers & Hammerstein, performed by the Liverpool FC Supporters Choir==Discussed:PeopleMichael Webb (architecture writer, co-author) — Wallpaper* contributor pageThomas Aujero Small (co-author; music critic) — ORO Editions author bio via ACC Art BooksElizabeth Valmont (Arup, Americas Technical Services Leader) — Arup staff profileCharles and Ray Eames — Eames Office / Eames FoundationRichard Neutra (architect, Strathmore Apartments) — WikipediaCharles Garnier (architect, Paris Opera) — WikipediaHans Scharoun (Berlin Philharmonie architect) — WikipediaAlvar Aalto (Essen opera house architect) — WikipediaHerzog & de Meuron (Elbphilharmonie) — Official siteSnøhetta (Oslo Opera House) — Official sitePeter Haimerl (architect, Konzerthaus Blaibach) — ArchDaily project profileThomas E. Bauer (baritone, Blaibach initiator) — Ignant interviewWilly Brandt (Mayor of West Berlin, Deutsche Oper inauguration) — WikipediaWalter T. Grondzik (co-author, MEEB) — Wiley author pageMark Schiller (USC, glare research on Disney Hall) — USC School of Architecture facultySam Pellman (chime tuning, Tower of Voices) — ENR profile of the projectPaul Murdoch (architect, Flight 93 National Memorial) — Paul Murdoch ArchitectsBooksMichael Webb & Thomas Aujero Small, Music and Architecture in Harmony: Opera Houses and Concert Halls of Europe (ORO Editions, 2026) — Publisher/distributor listingWalter T. Grondzik, Alison G. Kwok et al., Mechanical and Electrical Equipment for Buildings ("MEEB") — Wiley product pageBuildings & VenuesStrathmore Apartments, Westwood, LA (Richard Neutra, 1937; former Eames residence) — Confluence lecture backgroundEstates Theatre, Prague (Don Giovanni premiere) — WikipediaPalais Garnier (Paris Opera) — WikipediaDeutsche Oper Berlin — Official siteStaatsoper Unter den Linden, Berlin — Official siteBerlin Philharmonie (Scharoun, 1963) — Official siteElbphilharmonie, Hamburg — Official siteOslo Opera House — Official siteTeatro di San Carlo, Naples — Official siteBlaibach Concert Hall Bayreuth Festspielhaus — WikipediaGrand Théâtre de Bordeaux (1780) — WikipediaMusikverein, Vienna — Official siteLa Scala, Milan — Official siteWalt Disney Concert Hall, LA — Official siteStavros Niarchos Foundation Cultural Center, Athens (Renzo Piano) — Official siteLA Memorial Coliseum — Official siteFlight 93 National Memorial / Tower of Voices — National Park Service pageInstitutions & OrganizationsArup (engineering firm) — Arup SoundLab (R) overviewUniversity of Southern California, School of Architecture — Official siteCranbrook Academy of Art (Eames connection) — Official siteAmerican Film Institute — Official siteNational Park Service — Official siteNew York MTA / Second Avenue Subway — MTA project pageSociety of Building Science Educators — Official site— 2005 Conference Award RecipientsMusic & Opera Works MentionedMozart, Don Giovanni — WikipediaRichard Strauss, Elektra — WikipediaWagner, Das Rheingold (Ring cycle) — WikipediaAndrew Lloyd Webber, The Phantom of the Opera — Official siteOther Items of Interest

Intro/Outro: “Barbarian,” by The Darkness--Discussed:Alexandros Washburn (author, Chatting with Barbarians)Chatting with Barbarians (book site)Greg Lindsay (co-host, urbanist/journalist)Senator Daniel Patrick MoynihanThe Ephebic Oath of the AtheniansP(doom)Yuval Noah HarariYann LeCunM2 to M1 Learning (Autonomous Machine Learning)Isovis vs IsoclineAMI / Advanced Machine Intelligence (LeCun's startup)Mark ZuckerbergDario Amodei, CEO of AnthropicStuart Russell (AI researcher, UC Berkeley)AristotleOpenAIHugging FaceMetaAnthropic ("Claudville")METR (the "meter" AI-safety research org)Dwarkesh PatelWaymoFord Motor CompanyNHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration)New York UniversityStevens Institute of TechnologyCivicVirtue.ai (Washburn's alignment lab), where you can find MetaGothamLEAP (Riyadh tech conference)Robert MosesWinston ChurchillTimothy "Speed" LevitchBennett Miller (director)The Cruise (1998 film)Moneyball (2011 film)Geoffrey West (Santa Fe Institute)Scale, by Geoffrey West (book)Santa Fe InstituteConstantinople / IstanbulTokyoManhattan grid (1811 Commissioners' Plan)RiyadhPhiladelphiaErie CanalEmpire State BuildingSyracuse UniversityWashington, D.C. (L'Enfant Plan)

Intro/Outro: “The Housebuilding Song,” by David Ferguson--Discussed:PeopleNed Resnikoff (guest) — Resnikoff Consulting · Public Comment newsletterGreg Lindsay (co-host) — greglindsay.orgDan Safarik (co-host) — LinkedInChristopher Cabaldon, California State Senator, former mayor of West Sacramento — Senate biography · WikipediaGabriel (Gabe) Metcalf, Head of Planning, California Forever; former CEO of SPUR — California Forever profile · The Planning Report interviewZohran Mamdani, Mayor of New York City — Office of the Mayor · WikipediaMarc Andreessen — a16z profileScott Wiener, author of SB 79 — sd11.senate.ca.govOrganizations, companies, and government bodiesNed Resnikoff Consulting — resnikoffconsulting.comNYC Mayor's Office of Mass Engagement — establishing announcementCalifornia Forever — californiaforever.comSPUR (San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association) — spur.orgBlackstone — blackstone.comCornell Tech — tech.cornell.eduMetro, Portland's regional government — oregonmetro.govAtlanta Regional Commission — atlantaregional.orgTown of Atherton, California — ci.atherton.ca.usCity of San Jose — sanjoseca.govCounty of Los Angeles — lacounty.govLegislation and policy programsCalifornia SB 79, Abundant & Affordable Homes Near Transit Act — bill text · California YIMBY summaryRoad to Housing Act — U.S. Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban AffairsNew York City "City of Yes" zoning reforms — NYC Department of City PlanningULURP (Uniform Land Use Review Procedure) — NYC Planning overviewCalifornia Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) — Governor's Office of Land Use and Climate InnovationPublicationsBuild or Die: How America Is Suffocating Its Cities and What to Do About It, by Ned Resnikoff (Princeton University Press, December 8, 2026) — publisher pageEmergent Tokyo: Designing the Spontaneous City, by Jorge Almazan, Joe McReynolds, Naoki Saito and Studiolab — Oro Editions (see Unfrozen 31, “Emergent Tokyo,” for more).CRE Daily — credaily.comPlaces and building typologiesAmerikamura district, Osaka (site of the zakkyo-building cocktail bar) — Osaka InfoTokyo Metropolitan Government — metro.tokyo.lg.jpCity of Sacramento — cityofsacramento.govCity of Austin, Texas — austintexas.govCity of Portland, Oregon — portland.gov

Intro/Outro: "Balls," by Sparks--Discussed:“Photography: The Middle Class Medium”Family Propaganda PortraitsPhoto-MarxismBruce WeberSusan SontagCindy ShermanWalker EvansLoriel BeltranMarvin HeifermanJose Antonio Navarette“Avedon Smiles” > Richard Avedon: Nastassja Kinski and the SerpentBrene Brown WeegeeAlfred Dupont Building, downtown MiamiAllappattah > “Wynwood West”--“Navigating through the excuses became part of the performance.”“The image is more important than the reality it captures.”“You are poking at people who can squish you.”“Is taking a picture a crime?”“I erase myself into these interiors.”“I left with all the conceptual goodies I could fathom.”“Interior decorating choices like a bad mixtape…With all of the resources at your disposal, this was your choice?”“Buildings will eventually be like a Mr. Potato Head, with interchangeable parts.”“Documenting architecture and fine art, I can map the gentrification that has happened in the last few years.”

Intro/Outro: “The Chain,” by Fleetwood Mac--Discussed:PeopleBryan Boyer — co-author; Taubman College, University of Michigan (transcript: "Taubin College")Greg Lindsay — co-author; U of T School of CitiesFrank Duffy — DEGW co-founder, past RIBA president; RIBA obituaryStewart Brand — How Buildings Learn, source of the shearing-layers framingBobby Fijan — co-founder, The American Housing CorporationKP Reddy — founder/CEO, Zero RFI; ex-Gehry Technologies Boon Sheridan — permitting tech lead, EPIC Jon Buerge — president, Urban Villages Jeanne Gang — Studio Gang Joanna Frank — Center for Active Design Federico Negro — CEO, CanoaAstro Teller — X, the Moonshot FactoryMasayoshi Son — SoftBank Group Adam Neumann — WeWork co-founder David Graeber — Bullshit Jobs Austan Goolsbee — Federal Reserve Bank of ChicagoGeorge Romney — HUD Secretary behind Operation BreakthroughCompanies & organizationsAnori — company site / X project page; spun out of Alphabet's X with $26M led by Prologis and Builders Consigli AS + AECOM — AEC Magazine on the acquisition; Norwegian AI start-up acquired for roughly $390M Zero RFI — zero-rfi.com; backed by General Catalyst, built on its Foundation Zero intelligence layer The American Housing Corporation — americanhousing.com / Fast Company profileUrban Villages — urban-villages.comStudio Gang — studiogang.comSHoP Architects (Chris Sharples) — shoparc.comGensler — gensler.comAutodesk / Revit — autodesk.com/products/revitKaterra — Wikipedia; raised more than $2 billion before going out of business WeWork — WikipediaEliseAI — eliseai.com (transcript: "Elise AI")Canoa — canoa.comEPIC (Environmental Policy Innovation Center) — policyinnovation.orgPermitting Tech — permittingtech.comAvalonBay + Equity Residential → Vivmark Residential — Commercial Observer; more than 180,000 rental apartments, ~$71B enterprise value JPMorganChase / 270 Park Avenue — project pageBilt Rewards — biltrewards.comPCBC — pcbc.comCouncil for Quality Growth — councilforqualitygrowth.orgPapers, reports & standardsChain Drain: Why the Built Environment Struggles to Learn and How to Fix It — chaindrain.netlify.app; Boyer & Lindsay (2026), University of Michigan white paper built on dozens of AECO-sector interviews 2026 Permitting Technology Landscape Report — permittingtech.com; inventory of 305+ permitting technologiesConstruction Disconnected: The High Cost of Poor Data and Miscommunication – Autodesk / FMI, 2018Fitwel — fitwel.orgLEED — usgbc.org/leedWELL Building Standard — wellcertified.comToyota Production System — Wikipedia · Six Sigma — WikipediaOperation Breakthrough — HUD User archivePolicy21st Century ROAD to Housing Act (H.R. 6644) — Congress.gov; reduces barriers to building and targets institutional single-family buyers NYC Local Law 97 — nyc.govCEQ Permitting Innovation Center — permitting.innovation.govCultural referencesHooli, from HBO's Silicon Valley — WikipediaFucked Company — Wikipedia

Intro/Outro: “Spacelab,” by Kraftwerk----Interviewees:Greg Lemke, PhD, Distinguished Professor Emeritus, Salk InstituteRyan Rosen, Friendly FuturesJohn Galante, President, AE Ventures--Discussed:PeopleLouis Kahn — architect of the Salk InstituteGreg Lemke — distinguished professor emeritus, Salk InstituteTony Hunter — Salk professor; discovered tyrosine phosphorylationJonas Salk — founder of the Salk InstituteEero Saarinen — architect of Bell Labs Holmdel and IBM Yorktown William Pereira — architect of Geisel Library and master planner of UC IrvineWalter Netsch — SOM architect of Northwestern's University LibraryDawn Clark Netsch — Illinois legislator and comptroller; Walter Netsch's wifeFrank Gehry — architect; designed Facebook/Meta's MPK20 campusMark Zuckerberg — co-founder and CEO, MetaTheodor Geisel (Dr. Seuss) — namesake of UC San Diego's Geisel LibraryCormac McCarthy — novelist, author of The Road; longtime Santa Fe Institute fellowBruno Latour — sociologist of science; co-author of Laboratory LifeSteve Woolgar — co-author with Latour of Laboratory LifeChristian Catalini — MIT economist; research on lab proximity and collaborationEric Klinenberg — NYU sociologist; author of Palaces for the PeopleJan Gehl — Danish urbanistWilliam H. Whyte — urbanist behind the Street Life ProjectRyan K. Rosen — founder and creative director, Friendly FuturesAaron Hurst — founder and CEO, U.S. Chamber of ConnectionJohn Galante — president and founder, AE VenturesBryan Boyer — University of Michigan; co-author of Chain Drain ("Brian" in the transcript)Kelly Alvarez Doran — co-founder, Ha/f Climate Design; formerly MASS Design GroupBuildings, Campuses & PlacesSalk Institute for Biological Studies — La Jolla, CASalk Institute architecture — history and design of the Kahn campusUC San Diego — University of California, San DiegoGeisel Library — UC San DiegoUC Irvine — William Pereira's radial campus planTorrey Pines Mesa — San Diego's research and biotech corridorLa Jolla — San Diego communityBell Works (former Bell Labs Holmdel) — Saarinen's Holmdel research campus, now adaptively reusedIBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center — Yorktown Heights, NYSanta Fe Institute — complexity research instituteNorthwestern University Library — Walter Netsch's brutalist libraryJussieu Campus — Sorbonne University, ParisMeta MPK20 — Frank Gehry-designed Menlo Park officeThe RaDD (Research and Development District) — IQHQ's downtown San Diego waterfront life-science campusGaylord Pacific Resort — Chula Vista, CAWild Mile — floating eco-park on the Chicago RiverLa Jolla Tennis Club — public tennis club, La JollaCompanies, Organizations & EventsFriendly Futures — Ryan Rosen's social-architecture and neighborhood-games practiceAE Ventures — John Galante's hosted-event companyBuilder Innovator — AE Ventures' content platform and summit seriesUrban Rivers — Chicago nonprofit behind the Wild MileU.S. Chamber of Connection — Aaron Hurst's civic-connection nonprofitIQHQ — life-science real estate developerAlexandria Real Estate Equities — life-science REIT and lab campus developerScripps Research — La Jolla biomedical research instituteScripps Institution of Oceanography — UC San DiegoMASS Design Group — nonprofit architecture practiceHa/f Climate Design — Kelly Alvarez Doran's embodied-carbon consultancyZonda — housing market research firmFuture Place — Zonda/BUILDER master-planned community conferencePCBC — Pacific Coast Builders ConferenceCalifornia Building Industry Association — CBIADowntown Denver Partnership — downtown Denver business improvement organizationMortgage Bankers Association — MBAWhite House Council of Economic Advisers — CEABilt Rewards — rent-payment rewards platformWeWork — flexible workspace operatorLos Angeles Dodgers — MLB franchiseLos Angeles Rams — NFL franchiseInsulating Concrete Forms (ICF) — Insulating Concrete Forms Manufacturers AssociationOtter.ai — transcription service used for this recordingPublications, Papers & Works CitedLaboratory Life: The Construction of Scientific Facts — Bruno Latour and Steve Woolgar (Princeton University Press)Chain Drain: Why the Built Environment Struggles to Learn and How to Fix It — Bryan Boyer and Greg Lindsay, University of Michigan white paperPalaces for the People — Eric Klinenberg on social infrastructureThe Social Life of Small Urban Spaces — William H. Whyte, Project for Public SpacesThe Purpose Economy — Aaron HurstAerotropolis: The Way We'll Live Next — John D. Kasarda and Greg LindsayRoad to Housing Act of 2025 — U.S. Senate Banking Committee housing legislationConquest of the Planet of the Apes — 1972 film shot partly at UC Irvine

Intro/Outro: “Fixing a Hole,” by The BeatlesDiscussed:The Other Housing Crisis: Ending the Deterioration and Loss of Affordable Homes. Todd Swanstrom, A.T. Harrison & Alan Mallach, eds., Princeton University Press, 2026The American Housing SurveyHousing filtering theoryPlace Matters: Metropolitics for the 21st Century by Peter Dreier, John Mollenkopf, Todd SwanstromMBA White Paper: Demographic Trends Could Reshape Future Housing DemandRaj Chetty, et. al: “The Effects of Exposure to Better Neighborhoods on Children: New Evidence from the Moving to Opportunity Project,” Harvard, 2016Matthew Desmond + Eviction LabMeasuring and Understanding Home Repair Costs: A National Typology of Households, Philadelphia Federal Reserve, 2019UMSL’s Home Repair Toolkit

--Intro/Outro: “Big Road,” by Jon Spencer Blues ExplosionDiscussed:Transportation and the Shape of CitiesChristoph SpielerMandi ChapaDavid Copeland Laredo--Trains, Buses, People: an Opinionated Atlas of US and Canadian TransitAmerican Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO) Green BookNACTO (National Association of City Transportation Officials) Previously visited transportation design fairylands: - Copenhagen (Unfrozen 56: Urban Block Cities)- Amsterdam (Unfrozen 84: Movement)Dallas Street Design ManualWoonerfs

Intro/Outro: “Roscoe,” by MidlakeAndrew James GregorRoscoeBlue Dog ConstructionEmbarcadero CenterJohn PortmanHyatt Regency San FranciscoThe Clift Hotel’s Redwood RoomThe Tenderloin“Hostile” architectureInterboro Partners: The Arsenal of Inclusion and ExclusionSan Francisco’s “doom loop”Kansas City, MO’s “Zero KC” initiativeInvisible People Instagram channelMary LeakeyUrbz’s interventions in Mumbai and elsewhere (see Unfrozen 115, “Homegrown Cities”)Patrick Fealey’s “The Invisible Man,” Esquire, 14 November 2024Rebuilding Together East Bay NetworkHOPE (Homeless Outreach Population Estimate) NYC