296 - Rethinking How we Pay People: James Seechurn (Author of 'What Pay Costs’ & ‘Nothing Left to Take Away’

James Seechurn, Author of ‘What Pay Costs’ and ‘Nothing Left to Take Away’, joined us on The Modern People Leader.We talked about why traditional “pay for performance” systems often fail—both because individual performance is hard to measure in knowledge work and because incentives don’t actually drive better outcomes. We also explored a new definition of performance centered on innovation, and how companies can unlock it by creating the conditions of autonomy, competence, and relatedness instead of relying on compensation levers.---Sponsor Links:🔗 Learn more about Intuit QuickBooks Payroll at QuickBooks.com/workforce🔗 Book a conversation with Compete at compete.com/mpl🔗 Learn more about Cloverleaf at cloverleaf.me/mplMPL Links:🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Claude Silver, Chief Heart Officer at VaynerX, joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about why workplace dread is increasing in today’s environment, what Claude has learned from Gen Z employees, and how leaders can leave their “heart print” on the people they work with.----  Sponsor Links:🔗 Learn more about Cloverleaf at cloverleaf.me/mpl🔗 Learn more about Tilt at hellotilt.com/mplMPL Links:🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.----  (04:24) Claude’s Career Story: From Athlete to Chief Heart Officer(10:54) What VaynerX Does: Modern Marketing and Creative Ecosystem(13:13) Building a Learning Culture and Developing People Internally(15:51) Why Workplace Dread Is Increasing in Today’s Environment(18:16) The Importance of Self-Awareness and Emotional Control(20:30) Supporting Teams Without Having All the Answers as a Leader(20:56) What Claude Has Learned from Gen Z Employees(23:06) The Challenge of Patience and Career Growth Expectations(24:42) Why Relationships Matter More Than Ever at Work(26:51) The Impact of COVID and Isolation on Younger Generations(29:23) Overcoming Workplace Dread Through Action and Learning(31:51) Paying It Forward and Supporting Others in Their Growth(33:38) What It Means to Leave a “Heartprint” at Work(35:17) Emotional Optimism, Bravery, and Efficiency Explained---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Zachary Parris, who’s re-imagining talent development for the AI era at Google, joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about how AI is turning HR leaders into builders, why product thinking is replacing traditional HR programs, and how anyone can now create impactful tools without a technical background. ----  Sponsor Links:🔗 Book a conversation with Compete at compete.com/mpl🔗 Learn more about Wellthy at wellthy.com/mplMPL Links:🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.----  (08:39) Zach’s Career Story(13:56) The Shift into AI Product Building and Internal Tool Creation(14:29) Zach’s New Role at Google and Product-Driven HR(16:07) What People Get Wrong About Google Today(18:26) How HR Used to Operate vs. How AI Is Changing Everything(20:21) Early Skepticism Around Product-Led HR(22:00) The Breakthrough Moment: Building an AI Agent in Days(25:09) Shifting from Programs to Products in HR(25:53) New Skills Required: Problem Statements and Deep Focus Work(28:20) Example: Driving Product Adoption Through Onboarding Design(30:39) How User Research Changes in a Product-Led HR Model(32:30) Expanding Inputs: From Surveys to Real User Interaction and Feedback---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Deborah Yount, CHRO at Sutter Health, joined us on The Modern People Leader to share her journey from finance to leading HR at one of the largest healthcare systems in the U.S. We discussed how Sutter reduced turnover by nearly 40%, built a culture of leadership accountability, and scaled employee experience and development across 60,000+ employees.----  Sponsor Links:🔗 Learn more about Tilt at hellotilt.com/mpl🔗 Learn more about Wellthy at wellthy.com/mplMPL Links:🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.----  (05:18) Deborah’s Career Journey: From Finance to CHRO(08:15) Transition to Global Roles & Multinational Experience(10:31) Why Healthcare: Mission-Driven Work & Impact on Lives(11:21) Scale of Sutter Health: 60,000 Employees & Growing Network(14:57) Mission, Patient Experience, and Workforce Impact(16:22) Reducing Turnover from 18% to 9.8%: Key Results(17:46) Where to Start: Leadership, Culture & Employee Listening(19:06) Unique Challenges in Healthcare Workforce Experience(20:55) Differences from Tech: Purpose-Driven Work in Healthcare(22:00) “Power of One”: Bringing Thousands of Employees Together(24:32) Biggest Levers Behind Turnover Reduction(25:19) Fixing Early Attrition: Onboarding & Manager Enablement(27:40) Creating Career Pathways & Employee Growth Opportunities(28:00) Building a Development-for-All Strategy at Scale(30:52) Embedding Career Conversations Across the Organization(32:57) Leadership Modeling & Scaling Development Plans(33:35) HR Tech Stack, AI Integration & Learning Platforms---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Eva Majercsik (Chief People Officer) and Trevor Schulze (CIO) at Genesys joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about how AI is reshaping how humans and machines work together, why CIO and CPO partnerships are more important than ever, and how to lead a human-centered AI transformation across the organization. ----  Sponsor Links:🔗 Book a conversation with Compete at compete.com/mpl🔗 Learn more about Tilt at hellotilt.com/mpl🔗 Learn more about Wellthy at wellthy.com/mplMPL Links:🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.----  (06:37) Shift from CFO Partnerships to CIO-CPO Collaboration(08:23) Evolution of the CHRO Role & Seat at the Table(12:26) The Changing Nature of Work & Culture Transformation(14:42) Why Collapsing CIO + CPO Roles is the Wrong Take(16:51) The Power of CIO-CPO Partnership as a Force Multiplier(17:49) How Eva & Trevor Actually Work Together Day-to-Day(21:34) Rethinking Org Design, Bots, and Workforce Structure(22:49) Redefining Success: KPIs, Incentives & AI Impact(25:26) Why AI Transformation is Not One-Size-Fits-All(26:24) From Strategy to Execution: Driving Cultural Adoption(27:07) “AI Unlocked” & Building AI Literacy Across the Company(29:33) Why You Shouldn’t “Boil the Ocean” with AI(31:48) AI Hype, FOMO & Leadership Pressure(32:06) Creating Psychological Safety & Responsible AI Adoption(35:33) What’s Actually Realistic in the Next 2 Years of AI(36:43) Human-Centered AI & Employees Owning Their Role Evolution(38:35) Will Everyone Become AI Power Users?(40:23) The Viral “AI Doomsday” Narrative vs Reality(42:46) The Massive Reskilling Challenge Ahead(43:34) Job Destruction vs Job Evolution & Creation(47:12) Why Curiosity & Growth Mindset Will Define Winners(47:54) The Most Important Skills: Curiosity, Judgment, Empathy(49:18) Abundance Mindset: AI Creates More Opportunity(51:15) Managing Fear, Emotional Load & AI Anxiety(52:58) Why Every CPO Needs a Strong CIO Partnership---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Amit Rapaport, Co-Founder & CEO of Compete, joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about why most HR metrics don’t matter to your CEO, how to think like a CEO when looking at workforce data, and more.----  Downloadable PDF with top takeaways: https://modernpeopleleader.kit.com/5-hr-rulesSponsor Links:🔗 Book a conversation with Compete at compete.com/mplMPL Links:🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.----  (08:31) What Compete Does: AI Workforce Optimization Explained Simply(11:17) Why Most HR Metrics Don’t Matter to CEOs(14:47) Connecting Workforce Data to Business Outcomes and Revenue(17:34) Hiring Inefficiencies and the Hidden Cost of Poor Talent Decisions(18:03) Early Career Mistake: Reporting Data Without Strategic Context(21:30) From Executor to Strategic Business Partner in HR(22:33) Transitioning from HR Practitioner to Startup CEO(24:59) The Reality of Entrepreneurship: Feedback, Pressure, and Growth(27:14) Lessons from First-Time Founder Experiences and Challenges(29:03) How HR Leaders Can Think Like Their CEO(31:33) Aligning HR Metrics with Business Goals (Break-Even Example)(35:29) Upskilling, AI, and Driving Business Impact Through HR(37:24) Identifying High-Impact Employees and Productivity Signals(39:51) How AI Transforms Workforce Analytics(41:45) Human-in-the-Loop AI and Telling Better Data Stories(45:02) Security, Privacy, and Handling Sensitive Workforce Data---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Beth Ley, Chief People Officer at Kendra Scott, joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about how to build the number one workplace for women, the “Great Talent Transfer” and Beth’s vision for internal talent mobility, and what it’s like to work with a visionary founder.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Learn more about Wellthy at wellthy.com/mpl🔗 Learn more about Tilt at hellotilt.com/mpl----  (09:10) What Kendra Scott Stands For Beyond Jewelry(11:36) The “Great Talent Transfer” and Beth’s Vision for Internal Talent Mobility(14:33) How Beth Operationalizes Big Talent Ideas with Skills Inventory and Technology(17:31) Surprising Skills Discoveries and Unlocking Hidden Talent Across the Business(19:38) What “Head Scratcher” Meetings Are and How They Surface Important Issues(22:34) Helping Leaders Navigate Pressure, Change, and Economic Uncertainty(25:12) Why Leadership and Management Are Different and How Beth Leads Through Change(29:56) Fear, Loss, and Doubt: The Emotional Reality of Organizational Change(30:23) What Beth Has Learned Working with Kendra Scott’s New CEO(32:38) Beth’s Advice for People Facing Career Uncertainty and Reinvention(36:15) What It’s Like to Work with a Visionary Founder Like Kendra Scott(39:43) How Big Ideas Get Operationalized at Kendra Scott(41:30) Kendra Scott’s Commitment to Women’s Entrepreneurial Leadership(45:48) Beth’s Bigger Vision for Mentorship, Legacy, and Expanding Impact(47:12) Beth’s View on the Future of Retail, Human Connection, and Transformation---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Matt McFarlane, Founder of FNDN, joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about how to build a successful HR consulting business, why niching down and strong branding matter, and how to create sustainable growth through content, community, and a portfolio career.----  Sponsor Links:🔗 Book a conversation with Compete at compete.com/mpl🔗 Learn more about Tilt at hellotilt.com/mplMPL Links:🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.----  (05:07) Matt’s Career Story: From In-House HR to Founder of FNDN(08:03) Why Compensation Became Matt’s Core Focus Area(11:34) Taking the Leap: Leaving In-House and Starting from Scratch(12:09) Early Validation: Talking to Customers Before Selling(15:59) Finding a Niche: From Broad HR to Focused Compensation Services(17:19) The Importance of Customer Research and Feedback Loops(20:17) Building a Brand That Stands Out in HR Consulting(23:51) First Clients: How Matt Landed His Initial Work Without Cold Outreach(27:09) Using LinkedIn and Content to Build Trust and Generate Inbound Leads(30:00) Pricing Your Services: From Salary Goals to Hourly Rates(36:49) Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Charging What You’re Worth(41:18) The Challenges of Going Solo: Isolation and Losing Team Dynamics(43:04) The First Invoice Moment and Early Wins as a Founder(44:58) Reflecting on Growth: Building a Business and Lifestyle by Design(48:22) From Consulting to a Portfolio Career: Expanding Beyond Time-for-Money(50:28) Launching a Podcast and Newsletter as Growth Channels(52:26) Creating Startup People Summit: Building Community and Events(54:20) Lessons from Running Events and Building in Public(56:44) Brand Playbook: Intentionality, Consistency, and Differentiation(01:01:31) Where to Find Matt and His Work---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Most benefits strategies fail for one simple reason: employees don’t know how to use them. Matt Scovil, Co-Founder and CEO of Medefy, joined us to break down why confusing benefits lead to higher healthcare costs, why behavior change is the real unlock, and how HR teams can turn benefits from a cost center into something employees actually use.----  Downloadable PDF with top takeaways: https://modernpeopleleader.kit.com/episode288Sponsor Links:🔗 Learn more about Wellthy at wellthy.com/mpl----  (09:18) Matt’s Origin Story(14:03) Why Health Benefits Are So Hard for Employees to Understand(19:47) How Benefits Complexity Exploded Over the Last 5 to 10 Years(25:07) What HR Leaders Should Do When Benefits Costs Feel Out of Control(32:58) How Medefy Discovered What Employees Actually Want from Benefits Support(37:21) The Biggest Pitfalls Employers Make in Benefits Design and Communication(42:04) How Preventive Care Incentives Can Dramatically Lower Healthcare Costs(43:17) What Real Savings Can Look Like When Employees Use Benefits Better(44:57) Where Benefits, Personalization, and AI Are Headed Next(54:20) One Action HR Leaders Can Take Right Now to Start Fixing the Problem(57:13) Rapid Fire: Advice for Someone Starting Their Career Today---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Alex Coonce (Chief People Officer) and Patrick Quigley (CEO) from Sidecar Health joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about building a strong CEO–CPO partnership, why culture must scale before headcount does, and how companies can become AI-native while staying transparent with employees.----  Downloadable PDF with top takeaways: https://modernpeopleleader.kit.com/episode287Sponsor Links:🔗 Learn more about Wellthy at wellthy.com/mpl🔗 Book a conversation with Compete at compete.com/mpl----  (06:17) How Alex joined Sidecar Health and the early hiring story(10:46) What Sidecar Health does and how their healthcare model works(16:52) The CEO–CPO partnership and how they built trust working together(17:57) Early disagreements, culture decisions, and navigating leadership dynamics during COVID(20:35) How Patrick’s expectations of the CPO role evolved beyond traditional HR(25:27) Frameworks for understanding the business: market, business model, and leadership dynamics(28:54) Decision-making: when the CPO leads vs. when the CEO steps in(31:32) Building a culture of ownership: “give speeding tickets, not permission slips”(32:25) Navigating uncertainty and employee trust during constant change(34:51) Leading the “people business” alongside the company business(39:53 Leadership changes and how to bring teams along during major org shifts(42:43) Managing leadership transitions and the “Olympic team” mindset for executives(46:43) AI strategy and preparing the organization for the AI era(48:24) Building an AI-native culture through experimentation and tool adoption(50:33) Why AI adoption was driven culturally through the people team, not just engineering(52:30) Operating lean: scaling a company without adding as much headcount(55:03) Rethinking career growth when management roles are fewer in the AI era(56:31) Curiosity, experimentation, and the future of AI adoption in organizations---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.