Episode 297 - In the Weeds with Charles Joly

In part two of my conversation with rum trailblazer Maggie Campbell, CEO of American Cane, some of the topics we discuss include: The project of American Cane, and why Maggie is excited to kick off the brand with an affordable rum offering that’s focused on conviviality, celebration, and togetherness. How the American rum category differs in its identity from the many Caribbean traditions we are familiar with, and what factors like fermentation substrate, diurnal temperature shift, and cooperage sourcing have to do with it. Why America isn’t as primed or well suited for a strict geographic indication as other places in the world And what it’s been like for Maggie to move gradually away from the production side of rum and more into the strategy and business development side of the work in her role as CEO. Along the way, we provide a functional definition of the Trinidadian verb “liming,” explore what spirits brands can learn from Formula One motorsports strategy, learn why it’s important to never distill while you’re angry, And much, much more  

In this spirited conversation with Maggie Campbell, CEO of American Cane, some of the topics we discuss include: Maggie’s road to rum, which winds through philosophy, spice shops, wineries, and legendary brandy houses before arriving at her break-out role as distiller (and later President) at Privateer Rum Why sales and distribution are the hardest part of the spirits industry and how her experience working in the sales trenches and partnering with distributors paved the way for a great adventure working as a project leader for Mt. Gay Rum in Barbados We touch on the functional aesthetics of both vineyards and cane fields - the ways in which soil health, drainage, and cane-specific indicators like, lodging, arrowing, and low MOC factors can contribute to a healthy and beautiful cane growing operation And we also discuss how to think about terroir in spirits - specifically how it’s derived not only from landscapes and climate conditions, but also from the perspectives taken and decisions made in these diverse locales over long periods of time. Along the way, we muse on why you can’t hide anything in a rum distillation, the multinomial nature of cane dogs, why only foreigners like the monkeys in Barbados, and much, much more.  

Eric tastes through several rare and vintage Benedictine Liqueur expressions, alongside friends and colleagues from the spirits industry at the 2025 American Distilling Institute International Spirits Competition. In this recording, he's joined by: Mr. David T. Smith (who generously provided the Benedictine samples from his personal collection) and who is the head steward at the ADI competition Joe Barber from Stargazy Spirits (who, for the first time, had a functional microphone for one of these recordings) Author and Spirits expert Eric Zandona, who runs the International Spirits Competition Reece Sims, founder of Flavor Camp, representing Canada Aaron Knoll, creator of The Gin is In, my favorite gin review website Sara Sargent of Alpine Distilling, one of the award-winning-est distillers I know And Vanessa Piromallo, the 2024 World Drinks Awards Icons of Gin Communicator of the Year The Benedictine expressions we taste through in this sitting are: Your standard, straight-up, run-of-the-mill, but still ICONIC Benedictine Vintage Benedictine (likely from the 60s or 70s) Benedictine and Brandy (AKA B&B) Benedictine 1888 (a special, premium Blend) Benedictine Single Cask  

In Part 2 of my high-flying conversation with Charles Joly, some of the topics we discuss include: The 2014 Diageo World Class win that elevated Charles to global bartending celebrity, and the story of the innovative cocktail that put him in the winner’s circle. The importance of timing in cocktail builds and presentation and how effective manipulation of timing can play on a guest’s anticipation, which Charles refers to as a “6th sense.” The genesis of Crafthouse Cocktails, a ready-to-drink cocktail brand that has its roots way back in 2013, at time when most people viewed the RTD category as either a non-sequiter or a complete heresy. We cover what the very early RTD landscape looked like, how Charles and his team went about designing canned beverage that actually taste like a real cocktail, the decision to partner with leading spirits brands, and even Crafthouse’s recent placement on United Airlines. We wrap the conversation by discussing some of Charles' other favorite projects, like Cayman Cookout with chef Eric Ripert, his own line of custom barware, and even his online vintage store side hustle. Along the way, we cover Charles’ most important tips for succeeding in a cocktail competition, why Crafthouse opted for a Paloma over a Margarita in their RTD portfolio, a maximalist itinerary for a full day of eating and drinking your way through Chicago’s culinary gems, and much, much more.  

In part 1 of my conversation with acclaimed bartender Charles Joly, some of the topics we discuss include: The two predominant “schools” of cocktail programs you might encounter in the early 2000s, and how Charles found his home and his voice in the seasonal and ingredient-focused program at a place called The Drawing Room. The conditions and events that led Charles to take on his break-out role on a national stage as the beverage director of the incredibly high-profile bar at The Aviary--a venue renowned for its avant-garde, highly technical molecular mixology drink preparations. How Charles handled the culture shock of transitioning into that role - the feeling of being parachute-dropped into a foreign land - and why a round of cheeky Tequila shots with guests helped to humanize the service style just a little. We also discuss what it means for a cocktail or ingredient to make “sense,” which involves using context cues and narrative structure to help communicate the “why” behind the “what” and “how” of a drink. Along the way, we explore the tattoos you’d see on Charles’ arms if he were to prepare a drink in front of you, why every bartender should know somebody peddling rare tea and Iberico ham, the beauty of “vibe-based” bartender’s choice cocktails, and much, much more.  

In this cask-strength conversation with spirits judge, educator, and master blender Nancy Fraley, some of the topics we discuss include: Nancy’s journey to spirits blending, from Harvard Divinity School, to maritime law, to her apprenticeship under the legendary brandy maker Germain Robin. The story of the first Cigar Blend Bourbon (developed, of course, by Nancy) and how she weaves together factors like fermentation style, maturation humidity, cask finishes, and more to achieve the elusive flavor note known as rancio. A crash course in blending theory, which draws on architectural and corporeal metaphors to describe how to build flavor profiles in barrel-aged spirits Why the terms “master distiller” and “master blender” have become watered down in recent decades, which underscores the importance of humble practice day after day, year after year, in the pursuit of world-class distillates. We also explore the tension between the intellect and the instinct in spirits blending, using Nancy’s experiences to illustrate how and when to let the wisdom of the body triumph over the chaos of “monkey mind” and the dance of contingency. Along the way, we divulge the connection between French brandy and rotting pheasant, trace the story of an all-but-forgotten yeast strain, share how you can sign up to taste some of the rankest, most flawed distillates in Nancy’s “Nosing for Faults” class,  And much, much more. This episode was made possible with editing and sound design by Samantha Reed, whiskey blending insights and some delicious pours brought to you by Nancy Fraley, and support from The American Distilling Institute. This has been a Direct Fire Studios production, copyright 2025.  

Eric presents selected recordings from the 2024 ADI Gin Summit to provide a few extra perspectives on botanical spirits from some of the world's best category experts, including: David T. Smith - a prolific gin judge and author of The Gin Dictionary and many other excellent cocktail books, Natasha Bahrami - creator of The Gin Room in St. Louis and Gin World, which is an international gin education series for bartenders and other industry professionals), and Virginia Miller - experienced spirits judge and travel writer (The Perfect Spot) who works with esteemed organizations like the World’s 50 Best and the James Beard Foundation During this session, we’ll discuss topics ranging from: What constitutes a London Dry gin from a technical standpoint building a botanical library Use of character-forward distillate bases Deployment of color in gin and related products And much, much more!

In this Navy Strength conversation with Bobby Freeman (@nononsensegin), creator of the hit YouTube Channel, No Nonsense Gin Drinking, some of the topics we discuss include: Bobby’s journey through gin, beginning with the gin & tonic that launched his obsession and all of the stylistic preferences and affinities he’s developed along the way A discussion of recent gin trends in the UK, including the “Pink Gin Bubble” that occurred during COVID and the current obsession with citrus-heavy gins. We also cover the popular cocktail trends that are dominant right now in the London bar world, including Pisco & whiskey sours, porn star martinis, and brambles. And of course, this wouldn’t be a true gin nerd conversation if we didn’t take the opportunity to sample some of our personal favorite gins featuring outlandish botanicals, like oyster shells, elephant dung, ants, and prickly pear cactus. Along the way, we discuss why Bobby gets a little nervous when ordering a Mojito, which South American country has suspiciously good deals on distilled spirits, the gin with a flavor profile that can only be described as “pure fart,” And much, much more.  

Eric continues his two part investigation of the rise of Artificial Intelligence in the cocktail and bar world with special guest Rob Nester, creator of the hit podcast, Drinking with Robots.  Some of the topics covered include: Why AI and human bartenders have some of the same tendencies, especially when it comes to picking base spirits for cocktails. The role that "cognitive outsourcing" plays in our lives, and how to think about "outsourcing" certain tasks to artificial intelligence. The reason why LLMs can often produce cocktails that are about 90% perfect, but often fall short of actual greatness. Some thoughts about how the "intersubjectivity" of flavor is actually a human superpower A few mind-boggling statistics about the computing power of the human brain when compared to the supercomputers that run ChatGPT And much, much more This episode was made possible with editing and sound design by Samantha Reed, AI and cocktail insights courtesy of Rob Nester, creator of the hit podcast, “Drinking with Robots." This has been a Direct Fire Studios production, copyright 2025!

Eric interviews Rob Nester, creator of the hit podcast, Drinking with Robots, about the rise of artificial intelligence in the cocktail space. This is part 1 of a two-part investigation that poses the following question: in what ways might AI transform how we create, enjoy, and perhaps even think about cocktails in the future? In this installment, we talk about Rob's origin story, how he came up with the concept for Drinking with Robots, and the insights he has gleaned about datasets, prompt generation, and the human-AI divide over the course of the first season of the show. Next time, we'll tackle slightly thornier questions, like whether or not LLMs possess the ability to surprise and delight a human palate, the ways in which AI can be effectively (or poorly) implemented in existing bar programs, and some of the big, philosophical questions that arise when you put computers in a position to dictate what we drink and how it tastes.