Steve Martin on Influence At Work

How do tiny changes in our surroundings create big impacts on our daily lives?  And what does that have to do with house flies?Episode SummaryIn this episode, I’m thrilled to welcome Dr. Eva Van Den Broek and Tim Den Heijer to discuss their new book, The Housefly Effect, which explores the hidden ways behavioral science influences our daily decisions.We dive into fascinating examples of nudges, from a simple housefly sticker in a urinal to placebo buttons at pedestrian crossings. They reveal how clever behavioural tricks are everywhere, steering our actions without us even realizing it.Eva and Tim share insights from their diverse backgrounds — Eva, a behavioural economist working on policy and research, and Tim, an advertising strategist who brings these ideas to life through real-world campaigns.Together, they’ve written a book that not only explains these influences but invites readers to recognize and leverage them in their own lives. Our conversation also touches on the ethical aspects of behavioural science and why it’s so important to think critically about when and how these techniques are used. From funny to thought-provoking, Tim and Eva bring a fresh perspective on behavioural science that’s both entertaining and deeply insightful.Guest BiographiesDr. Eva Van Den Broek is a behavioural economist and the founder of Behavioral Insights Netherlands. She specializes in using behavioural science to improve public policy and has extensive experience working with government agencies and ministries. Eva’s work spans a variety of real-world applications, from interventions in education to campaigns promoting library use among low-literacy adults. She is also a lecturer and public speaker, known for making complex behavioral insights accessible and practical.Tim Den Heijer is a creative strategist, copywriter, and founder of Brain Creatives, an agency that combines advertising and behavioural science. With over 20 years in advertising, Tim has helped shape campaigns for some of the world’s biggest brands.His work focuses on finding creative ways to connect behavioural insights with marketing goals. Tim’s approach blends curiosity with pragmatism, drawing on his love-hate relationship with advertising to question conventional wisdom and explore new ideas in behavioural influence.AI Generated Timestamped Summary of Key Points[00:00:00] Introduction to the concept of behavioural influences in daily decisions.[00:00:40] Examples of nudges used by advertisers and governments.[00:01:01] Introduction of guests Dr. Eva Van Den Broek and Tim Den Heijer.[00:01:20] Eva and Tim's professional backgrounds and collaboration on The Housefly Effect.[00:02:00] Overview of their book’s approach to behavioural science through engaging stories.[00:02:23] Discussion on cognitive diversity and collaboration dynamics.[00:03:05] Eva’s early career shift from AI to practical behavioural science. [00:04:00] Tim’s journey from linguistics to advertising and the influence of behavioural science.[00:05:00] Origins of the collaboration between Eva and Tim, emphasizing cognitive diversity.[00:06:00] Key insights from their book on using simple nudges effectively.[00:09:10] The story behind the “housefly effect” in urinals as a behavioural nudge. [00:13:00] How nudges can be effective even without precise measurements.[00:17:00] Discussing the organization of topics in The Housefly Effect and their selection process.[00:20:00] Examples of “dumb” ideas that actually work in behavioural science. [00:22:00] Placebo buttons and how they influence behaviour.[00:25:00] Differences between public policy and advertising approaches to behaviour change.[00:30:00] Insights on behavioural science’s application across different cultures.[00:34:00] Dutch cultural openness to experimentation in public policy.[00:39:00] Discussion of translating The Housefly Effect for an international audience. [00:42:00] The “Washboard” example illustrates people’s willingness to pay for convenience.[00:45:20] The “behavioral safari” concept and the challenges of switching off the behavioural lens.[00:48:32] Ethical considerations in behavioural influence and the limits of persuasive tactics.Relevant LinksEva (https://www.linkedin.com/in/evdbroek/) and Behavioural Insights Netherlands (https://www.behaviouralinsights.nl/)Tim (https://www.linkedin.com/in/timdenheijer/) and B.R.A.I.N. Creatives (https://braincreatives.nl/The HouseFly Effect: https://bedfordsquarepublishers.co.uk/book/the-housefly-effect/The Dutch original: https://bromvliegeffect.nl/

What if embracing randomness could unlock better decision-making in your work?In this episode, I welcome back Matt Ballantine, a returning guest known for his insightful and playful take on work and life.  This time, Matt dives into the concept of randomness and how it can be a strategic tool in navigating complex problems that defy traditional solutions.From engaging discussions on how randomness applies to decision-making to his creative uses of tarot-like card decks for ideation, Matt demonstrates that randomness is not just chaos—it’s a pathway to innovation.He also shares how randomness has played a role in his projects, like the 100 Coffees initiative, which connected him with people in unexpected ways and reinforced the idea that unstructured, agenda-free time can lead to powerful outcomes.In our discussion, we explore practical applications of randomness in business settings, why organizations may resist these approaches, and how embracing randomness could unlock creative potential and solve cloud-like challenges.To see the cards that Matt and I talked about: https://photos.app.goo.gl/8Sf6zrsKoL74VxjZ6Guest BiographyMatt Ballantine describes himself as a curious explorer of ideas with a background in technology, organizational culture, and creative problem-solving. Currently an account manager at Equal Experts, Matt’s work spans various roles that emphasize unconventional approaches to strategy and innovation.He is known for his thought-provoking projects, like the 100 Coffees initiative, which challenged norms of structured networking and led to surprising insights. In addition, Matt has been exploring the intersection of randomness and decision-making, using creative tools such as card decks inspired by tarot to facilitate out-of-the-box thinking.Find Matt on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattballantine/Follow him on Twitter/X: https://x.com/ballantine70AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] - Opening & IntroductionChristian welcomes back Matt Ballantine to discuss randomness, highlighting Matt's previous appearance and his exploration of randomness in work and life.Matt shares how randomness can be a strategic advantage when addressing complex, unpredictable problems.[00:02:00] - 100 Coffees Experiment RecapMatt recounts his "100 Coffees" project from 2023, which involved meeting 138 people for unstructured, hour-long conversations to spark serendipitous insights.He notes the challenge many people face in allocating unplanned conversation time due to hyper-optimized schedules.[00:04:12] - Organizational ImplicationsMatt reflects on how the absence of informal interactions in modern work setups, like back-to-back virtual meetings, has stripped valuable opportunities for unstructured exchanges.[00:07:13] - Current Projects & RandomnessMatt discusses his current work as an account manager at Equal Experts, which operates without traditional hierarchical structures.He introduces his project, the "Business Meerkat" deck, a tool for exploring business problems using randomness, and his ongoing research and writing on the theme of randomness.[00:08:50] - The Clock and Cloud AnalogyDrawing from Karl Popper, Matt contrasts "clock-like" (predictable, analyzable) and "cloud-like" (complex, unpredictable) problems. He suggests randomness as a strategy for navigating cloud-like problems.[00:10:32] - Definitions of RandomnessMatt distinguishes between mathematical randomness (equal probability outcomes, like dice rolls) and perceived randomness (unforeseen events).[00:15:00] - Human Behavioral Dynamics & ComplexityMatt and Christian discuss how perfect information in human systems, like traffic, can create new problems due to human reactions, illustrating the complexity of cloud-like problems.[00:17:36] - The Spectrum of ControlOrganizations often lean towards deterministic approaches, believing in total control. However, randomness introduces new approaches to handle unpredictable outcomes.[00:19:00] - Biological AnalogyT-cells in the immune system exemplify natural, evolved randomness through their adaptive protein shuffling. Netflix's A/B testing process is cited as a parallel in using randomness strategically.[00:22:00] - Risk and Decision-MakingChristian and Matt discuss how decision-making involves inherent risk and unintended consequences. Randomness can offer fresh perspectives when facing uncertain, multi-faceted decisions.[00:24:26] - Business ApplicationsMatt explains how his tarot-inspired "Business Meerkat" cards help teams analyze problems by introducing random prompts, fostering unexpected insights and collaborative thinking.[00:31:50] - Group Dynamics and Random InputRandom input encourages active participation and mitigates power dynamics in meetings, allowing genuine, spontaneous collaboration.[00:37:26] - Comfort with UncertaintyMatt acknowledges that adopting randomness can be intimidating but argues that it's crucial for those tackling complex, cloud-like problems.[00:45:16] - External Thinking ToolsMatt highlights how humans use external tools (e.g., notebooks, cards) to process and enhance thinking, making randomness a valuable external input for creative processes.[00:48:00] - Childlike ExplorationChristian reflects on how educational and workplace norms stifle the playful, exploratory thinking that randomness can reinvigorate.LinksMatt's previous appearance on the show: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/matt-ballantine-on-the-human-side-of-technology/Matt's website: https://mmitii.mattballantine.com/The book website: randomthebook.com The three apps Matt mentions:https://ee-hacking-apophenia-random-photos.vercel.app/https://ee-hacking-apophenia-creativator.vercel.app/https://ee-hacking-apophenia-business-meerkat.vercel.app/Cardshop: wb40podcast.com/shop

What would you do if someone you trusted turned out to be living a double life?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I speak with Anna Rowe, a brave and resilient advocate for victims of romance fraud. Anna shares her deeply personal story of being deceived by someone who led a double life, manipulating her emotions and trust for over a year. Her journey from victim to activist is one of courage and determination to bring awareness to the emotional trauma caused by these scams. During our conversation, Anna explains the stages of manipulation she experienced, from grooming to love bombing to the devastating moment when she discovered the truth. We also discuss the broader issue of romance fraud, the legal challenges victims face, and why the law needs to change to protect people from emotional predators.You'll gain insight into how these scams unfold, the lasting emotional impact they have on victims, and the importance of raising awareness to stop others from falling into the same traps. Anna’s story serves as both a warning and a call to action for change.Guest Biography Anna describes herself as a teacher turned advocate for victims of romance fraud after falling victim to an elaborate emotional scam.In 2015, Anna met a man online who deceived her for over a year, using a fake identity and manipulating her emotions through intense grooming and love-bombing tactics. After discovering the truth, she turned her experience into a campaign to raise awareness of romance fraud and help others avoid similar situations.Anna is the founder of "Catch the Catfish," an organization that supports victims of emotional fraud and advocates for changes in legislation to address non-financial romance scams. She is also a co-founder of "LoveSaid," an umbrella organization that tackles all forms of romance fraud, from emotional to financial exploitation.Through her website, public speaking, and media appearances, Anna continues to fight for the recognition of romance fraud as a serious crime that leaves lasting emotional scars.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] – Introduction[00:00:24] – Anna’s Background: Anna begins by sharing a brief overview of her story. She explains that in August 2015, she started using dating apps for the second time after having had a successful two-and-a-half-year relationship with someone she met online. She talks about how being a single mom with limited time and resources led her to rely on dating apps.[00:01:35] – Anna's Personality and Approach to Relationships: Anna discusses her attachment style, describing herself as someone who gets attached to people quickly—both in romantic and non-romantic contexts—and becomes fiercely loyal. She shares that although she rarely feels romantic connections when she does, she "falls hard and fast."[00:02:00] – The Start of the Deception: Anna recounts how she was drawn to a particular dating profile not because of the man’s picture but because of his words. His profile described him as humble, grounded, and someone who hated poor communication and mind games, which made Anna feel like he had been hurt before and wouldn’t hurt her. She matched with him and started exchanging messages the next morning.[00:03:00] – The Relationship Begins: Anna describes how their online communication turned into an intense connection over the span of three months, mirroring the way her previous successful online relationship had started. She shares that even before they met in person, she expressed to him that she was scared by how close she already felt to him, signalling the emotional intensity early on.[00:04:00] – The Emotional Rollercoaster Begins: Anna reflects on the emotional intensity of the relationship after meeting in person, describing it as "incredibly intense." She shares that the connection felt like something out of a soulmate story but that she now recognizes it as part of the manipulation.[00:07:08] – The Beginning of Instincts: Anna talks about the early stages of her relationship, explaining how she started to feel something was off after her partner unexpectedly pulled away. She shares how her gut instinct kicked in, even though she initially tried to ignore it. This part highlights the importance of trusting your intuition when something feels wrong, especially in online relationships.[00:25:00] – The Moment of Discovery: Anna recalls the pivotal moment when she inadvertently matched with her partner on a dating app, realizing he was still active and using the same scripted lines as before. She describes the shock of finding out that her partner had not only lied to her but was actively deceiving others. T[00:37:00] – The Investigator Within: Using her research skills, Anna reveals how she tracked her partner’s location and pieced together his real identity. She explains the various techniques she used, including distance tracking and LinkedIn searches, to find out where he worked and his real name. [00:54:24] – The Legal System’s Failure: Anna discusses her long battle with the legal system, detailing how the police initially dismissed her case despite clear evidence of multiple victims. She talks about the difficulty in getting authorities to recognize the severity of these scams and the emotional toll they take on victims. [01:05:00] – The Emotional Toll and Advocacy for Change: Anna reflects on the emotional damage caused by her experience, describing the “triple trauma” victims endure: the relationship ending, discovering the deception, and losing trust in oneself. She also talks about her campaign for legal reform, calling for better protection for victims and stricter regulations on online dating platforms. Episode LinksLove Said - https://www.lovesaid.org/Catch the Catfish website - https://catchthecatfish.com/

How can road trips and curiosity shape our perspectives on life?In this episode, I speak with Dr Holly Bell, a former professor, author, and spontaneous traveller. Holly’s diverse background, which includes teaching economics, writing thrillers, and even working in corporate management at a Fortune 100 company, is rooted in her insatiable curiosity and love of reinvention.Together, we discuss her fascinating career journey and how she continuously evolves by following her passions and embracing new experiences. Holly shares her stories of spontaneous road trips, from jump-seating on FedEx planes to discovering hidden parts of Alaska. We explore the joy she finds in taking the road less travelled and how her adventures have shaped her outlook on life. She also dives into the quirks of U.S. tipping culture and other fascinating topics, giving us a unique perspective on behavioural economics and societal norms. Whether you’re curious about career reinvention, travel, or the behavioural side of everyday decisions, this episode offers a fresh take on living with passion, curiosity, and a bit of spontaneity. Tune in to discover how embracing life’s uncertainties can lead to incredible adventures. Guest Biography:Holly is a retired professor of economics and business, known for her unconventional career journey and adventurous spirit. A former corporate executive with a Fortune 100 company, Holly has also been a novelist, voice actor, and radio copywriter. Her love for spontaneous travel and curiosity about the world has taken her to all corners of the U.S., including 13 years living in Alaska. In addition to her academic and business accomplishments, Holly is also passionate about storytelling and currently spends her time acting, writing, and creating unique experiences through her travels.Holly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hollybell/Holly on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/HollyBell8AI-Generated TimeStamp Summary[00:00:00] Christian introduces Dr. Holly Bell and her diverse background[00:02:00] Holly shares her early life in Wisconsin and her journey from a blue-collar family to college at 29 to working in radio, advertising, and voiceover projects[00:04:00] Holly’s career reinvention: from professor to voice actor and writer in Florida[00:05:30] Holly talks about her jump-seat travels on FedEx planes and spontaneous adventures[00:07:18] The freedom of spontaneous travel and its impact on Holly's life[00:08:21] Holly’s road trips in Alaska and the culture of curiosity behind them.[00:10:09] Exploration and divergent road trips with her husband[00:12:13] Holly’s passion for human behaviour and its influence on her academic and professional life[00:15:00] Christian and Holly discuss how education separates disciplines like geography and history[00:17:00] The tipping culture in the U.S., Holly’s frustrations, and how it distorts incentives[00:29:05] Holly’s brief stint in politics and her work on local governance[00:33:00] Holly’s experience in her local community with frictional changes, like replacing gate access cards[00:36:39] How large social changes, like smoking bans, face resistance but later become normalized[00:39:16] Holly’s experience managing people and getting them to own decisions[00:41:00] Holly's factory tours and her fascination with understanding how things work[00:47:00] The benefits of curiosity and how it can lead to unexpected discoveries[00:50:30] Final thoughts on how curiosity and taking the road less travelled shape both Holly's and Christian’s lives

What role does creativity play in navigating an unpredictable world?On this episode, I sit down with Carissa Carter and Scott Doorley, both members of the Stanford d.school faculty. Together, they’ve co-authored Assembling Tomorrow, a fascinating exploration of how design influences the future, especially amidst the rapid rise of emerging technologies like AI and synthetic biology. We discuss how design shapes the environments we live and work in and why getting it right can help people make better, safer, and more ethical choices.Our conversation dives into some intriguing concepts like “mischievous materials” and the role that design fiction plays in imagining the future. Carissa and Scott share their insights into the power of speculative fiction, demonstrating how it can help us predict and adapt to the future consequences of today’s decisions. We also discuss how design often starts as fiction and evolves into real-world innovations and how emotions and make-believe play crucial roles in the creative process. Lastly, we discuss the ethical implications of design and the importance of considering all possible outcomes—positive and negative—when creating new tools or systems. The discussion is both a hopeful and realistic look at how designers, and indeed all of us, can better navigate an increasingly unpredictable world. Biography of the Guests: Carissa Carter is a designer, geoscientist, and the academic director at the Stanford d.school. She teaches design courses focused on emerging technologies, climate change, and data visualization, helping students apply design thinking to complex, real-world challenges. Carissa is passionate about exploring how design can foster creativity, ethical decision-making, and positive societal impact. Scott Doorley is the creative director at the Stanford d.school, where he oversees a wide array of projects, including books, workspaces, digital products, and initiatives aimed at shaping the future of learning and design. A designer and writer, Scott has a deep interest in how design can be used as a tool for understanding and influencing human behaviour, particularly in times of rapid technological and societal change.Together, Carissa and Scott have co-authored Assembling Tomorrow, a book that delves into how emerging technologies influence human behaviour, decision-making, and ethics. They use the power of storytelling and speculative fiction to imagine future scenarios and provoke thought on how design can guide us through an increasingly complex world.LinksCarissa's profile - https://dschool.stanford.edu/team-directory/carissa-l-carterScott's profile - https://dschool.stanford.edu/team-directory/scott-doorleyThe Stanford d School - https://dschool.stanford.edu/Assembling Tomorrow and other d School books - https://dschool.stanford.edu/booksAI-Generated Timestamp Summary[00:00:00] Introduction and welcome [00:00:33] How design shapes our environments and influences decision-making[00:01:00] Introduction to Stanford d.school and the work of Carissa and Scott [00:01:41] Overview of Assembling Tomorrow and its exploration of emerging tech[00:02:20] Ethical implications of design and the influence of emerging technologies [00:03:16] Carissa and Scott introduce themselves and their work[00:04:36] The role of ambiguity in design and navigating uncertainty[00:06:24] Emotions and make-believe in the design process [00:08:19] Importance of seeing the full impact of design decisions[00:10:07] The dynamic of young versus experienced creators in technology[00:15:35] Speculative fiction as a tool for imagining future design consequences [00:17:23] The process behind creating Assembling Tomorrow[00:22:04] Strategies for solving complex problems in an unpredictable world[00:23:14] Embracing awkwardness and aiming for imperfection in design [00:26:35] Need to adapt to more organic, unpredictable processes in design [00:33:04] Developing an ethical mindset within design education[00:36:00] Generational shift in attitudes towards ethical design[00:45:11] Visuals and illustrations as tools for engaging readers in design concepts

How can we be better at influencing others? On this episode, I explore the world of influence with behavioural scientist Steve Martin.Steve has made a career out of studying the art and science of persuasion, and in this conversation, we dive deep into his latest book Influence at Work.Together, we unpack how influence is a key part of all aspects of life, including compliance. We discuss why 'influence' often gets a bad rap as manipulative, and how it’s misunderstood as a 'dark art.' We discuss the nuances of influence: when it’s most effective, how to wield it ethically, and why sometimes the simplest approaches to influencing can be best.Steve explains how influence can be harnessed for positive change and shares some surprising insights from his decades of research.Hear how influence plays a pivotal role in compliance, organizational success, and personal interactions, plus how behavioral science can offer practical tools to help you be a better influencer—and resist being influenced yourself. We also explore Steve’s personal reflections on his career in behavioural science, how the discipline has evolved and what it needs to do to stay relevant.Whether you’re trying to influence colleagues, customers, or just navigate daily life, this episode is packed with actionable advice that everyone can use. Guest Biography Steve Martin is CEO of Influence at Work and Faculty Director at Columbia Business School. He is the co-author of Messengers, Who We Listen to, Who We Don’t and Why, and the Royal Society nominated international bestseller ‘Yes! 60 Secrets from the Science of Persuasion’.Steve’s books have sold over 1.5 million copies and been translated into 27 languages.His work applying behavioural science to business and public policy has featured in the National and International press including BBC TV & Radio, The Times, New York Times, Harvard Business Review and Time magazine.He penned the original, now world-famous set of Tax Letters that generated millions in extra revenue for the UK Government and his popular business columns are read by over 2.5 million people every month.Steve is Faculty Director of Behavioural Science at Columbia University’s Graduate Business School NY, guest lectures at Harvard, London School of Economics and London Business School, and is a founding member and Chair of the Global Association of Applied Behavioural Scientists (GAABS). AI Generated Timestamped Summary [00:00:00] Introduction to the episode and topic of influence in compliance and life[00:00:31] Why influence is a key skill for thriving in the modern world[00:00:52] Introduction of Steve Martin and his background in behavioral science [00:01:32] Steve shares how influence can be misunderstood as a dark art[00:03:00] Steve talks about his new book Influence at Work and why he’ll never write a book alone again[00:05:48] Discussion on why influence is central to human interactions and business[00:08:00] The connection between behavioral science and influence [00:09:30] How behavioral science strategies are designed to influence outcomes[00:12:00] The long history of influence in society and its early roots [00:16:00] Steve explains why quick hacks and shortcuts rarely lead to true influence [00:19:00] The importance of understanding context when applying influence strategies[00:21:00] Discussion on how to balance data, emotion, and economic factors in influence[00:23:00] The growing focus on helping people resist negative influence strategies[00:27:00] How influence can be long-lasting and not just a quick fix[00:31:00] Summary of Steve’s “equation for influence” [00:35:00] The role of evidence, economic consideration, and emotion in influence[00:39:00] Reflections on the differences between being “right” and being “effective” [00:44:00] Steve reflects on his own career and how influence has shaped his work Relevant LinksInfluence at Work, the book - https://influenceatwork.co.uk/our-books/Take the Influence at Work quiz - https://influenceatwork.emhdevelopment.com/the_economist/?Influence at Work, the company - https://www.influenceatwork.com/The previous episode of this show on which Steve and his co-author Joe Marks explored their book Messengers  - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/steve-martin-joe-marks/

How can watching Disney movies, help create more inclusive environments?  The answer is in the word Enchantment.On this episode, I'm speaking to Chloé Valdary, the founder of an organisation called The Theory of Enchantment, to explore her unique approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion (DE&I) training.  If you're someone for whom DE&I conjures up negative thoughts, then you're going to want to hear this. Because Chloé's approach is nothing like traditional DE&I. This episode is the third in a mini-series looking at the subject — you'll find links to the other episodes below.In a fascinating discussion, Chloé shares how her program blends philosophy, psychology, and culture to create environments of belonging and compassion. Together, we examine why many traditional DEI programs fall short and how her methodology seeks to address deeper human dynamics in workplaces.We discuss the power of enchantment—a term Chloé uses to describe the balance between light and shadow in every individual—and how recognizing this balance allows us to foster more meaningful connections.With references to popular culture, including Disney films like Beauty and the Beast, Chloé offers a compelling case for why empathy and self-reflection are essential tools in any organization’s toolkit.You'll hear how The Theory of Enchantment can be used to address conflict, enhance collaboration, and ultimately create more innovative and inclusive spaces. Whether you’re a leader, manager, or simply curious about human behavior, this conversation offers practical insights that go beyond the traditional DEI framework.Guest BiographyChloé Valdary is the founder of Theory of Enchantment, an innovative approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion that blends philosophy, psychology, and popular culture to help organizations foster belonging.Since its founding in 2018, Theory of Enchantment has been deployed in various organizations to build trust, compassion, and connection among employees.With a background in international studies and a concentration in conflict and diplomacy, Chloé has a unique perspective on building inclusive environments.She draws on sources ranging from Carl Jung to Disney films to guide her transformative work. Chloé is also a writer and cultural critic, exploring how love and compassion can serve as the foundation for solving societal challenges.Timestamped AI-generated Summary of Key Points[00:00:00] Introduction to the episode and overview of the mini-series on diversity and inclusion.[00:01:00] Background on previous episodes and why traditional DEI approaches need rethinking.[00:02:00] Introduction of Chloé Valdary and the Theory of Enchantment.[00:03:00] What "enchantment" means in the context of DEI training. [00:04:00] Exploring the balance between light and shadow in human behavior. [00:06:00] How popular culture, like Disney films, reflects deeper human truths.[00:09:00] Using self-reflection to build trust and navigate conflict in the workplace. [00:11:00] How diversity leads to innovation through self-understanding. [00:15:00] The need to address insecurities and biases to build inclusive teams.[00:18:00] Criticizing to uplift and empower, not to tear down. [00:22:00] How recognizing insecurities can resolve conflict and build trust. [00:25:00] The importance of creating space for emotional vulnerability at work.[00:30:00] Theory of Enchantment’s practical application in organizations.[00:33:00] Using design thinking to develop tailored DEI solutions.[00:36:00] The three core principles of Theory of Enchantment. [00:42:00] Historical examples of reconciliation and conflict resolution.[00:49:00] Chloé’s background and inspiration for the Theory of Enchantment.[01:03:00] Closing thoughts and how to learn more about Chloé’s work.Relevant Links:The Theory of Enchantment - https://www.theoryofenchantment.com/The Atlantic article 'Can Chloé Valdary sell skecptics on DEI?' - https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/can-chloe-valdary-sell-skeptics-dei/617875/The previous episodes of the mini-series:Chloé Valdary, Morgan Hamel & Peter Stein on De-Polarized Diversity, Equity & Inclusion - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/chloevaldary-morganhamel-peterstein-on-diversity-equity-inclusion/Morgan Hamel on Moral Polarization - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/morgan-hamel-on-moral-polarization/

How does moral polarization challenge even the most well-intentioned leaders?In this episode, I speak with Morgan Hamel, who talks frankly about her journey from working in business ethics to launching her own ethical fashion business.In our conversation, Morgan reflects on the complex dynamics of running a business that sought to balance purpose and profit and how that vision was tested by the demands of a polarized world.Morgan’s story offers a candid look at the pressures business leaders face today—particularly around ethical decision-making and navigating stakeholder expectations. She shares her personal experiences of how social media, moral polarization, and the expectations of "doing good" can create enormous challenges for business owners who want to stay true to their values while also being commercially successful.We explore the notion of moral polarization and how leaders can prepare themselves to handle the reputational and psychological pressure that comes with balancing ethics and business in today’s climate.Morgan Hamel Morgan describes herself as an entrepreneur and ethics expert who has dedicated her career to exploring the intersection of business and ethics. She began her journey in business ethics after studying applied ethics at Utrecht University. She later spent 11 years working in the ethics office of a large Canadian corporation, where she helped develop integrity programs and worked on aligning corporate actions with ethical codes.After leaving corporate life, Morgan founded her own ethical fashion business, "The Garment," which sought to change the face of fashion by connecting women with responsibly made clothes. However, her business came under immense pressure during the moral and social upheaval following the death of George Floyd.Morgan ultimately made the difficult decision to close the business, leading her to reflect on the deeper issues of moral polarization that businesses face today. Today, she works with organizations, boards, and executives to help them navigate the complexities of ethical leadership in a polarized world.AI-generated timestamp summary[00:00:00] - Introduction to the mini-series on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.[00:01:12] - Morgan's background in business ethics and her decision to start an ethical fashion business.[00:02:33] - Morgan reflects on her business's failure due to the competing demands of ethics and commercial success.[00:04:00] - The pressures of leading ethically in a polarized world, particularly on social media.[00:07:10] - The dangers of moral polarization in business decision-making.[00:10:20] - How post-2012 pressures (social media influence) have changed the ethical landscape for businesses.[00:18:00] - Lessons from Morgan’s decision to close her business despite its commercial success.[00:30:00] - A discussion on aligning business actions with ethical values and balancing profit with purpose.[00:46:55] - Morgan’s reflections on handling reputational risk and psychological pressure.[01:00:40] - The rise of post-2012 ethical risks and how leaders can prepare themselves.[01:10:00] - Morgan’s current work on moral polarization and her advice for business leaders today.LinksTo find out more about Morgan, visit her website: https://www.morganhamel.com/Morgan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/morgan-hamel-365537210/The previous episode of this mini-series on DI&E: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/chloevaldary-morganhamel-peterstein-on-diversity-equity-inclusion/The essay she wrote with Keith Darcy on Stakeholder Activism: https://www.morganhamel.com/stakeholder-activismMorgan's TED Talk: https://tedxyyc.ca/talk/morgan-hamel/

What do you think of when you hear the words Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DE&I)? If it's something negative, then this is the episode for you; because I'm exploring how we can transform DE&I from something theoretical but impractical to something that can really work and have a positive impact for everyone. In other words, how we can de-polarize it?On this milestone 300th episode of the Human Risk podcast, I’m joined by three remarkable guests—Chloé Valdary, Morgan Hamel, and Peter Stein—who are working together to revolutionize how organizations approach DE&I.Morgan, a former fashion ethicist, shares her story of navigating the challenges of DE&I while running her own business and how it led her to Chloé and Peter's groundbreaking work at The Theory of Enchantment.Throughout the episode, we explore how their unique approach moves away from traditional and often divisive methods of addressing DE&I. Instead, they advocate for a humanistic approach that fosters genuine connection and respect, even across seemingly insurmountable divides.If you’ve ever felt disillusioned by standard DE&I strategies, this conversation will open your eyes to a new way of thinking.You’ll also hear about the challenges of implementing meaningful DE&I practices in today’s polarized world, with real-world examples of companies that have struggled — and sometimes failed — to get it right. This is a refreshing and practical discussion for leaders and professionals who want to find a more sustainable, inclusive, and human-centred way to manage DE&I in the workplace.Biography of the GuestsMorgan Hamel describes herself as a fashion ethicist and former compliance officer, now focused on exploring the intersection of ethics, reputation, and diversity in business. Morgan ran her own fashion company, The Garment, where she experienced firsthand the challenges of navigating DE&I, ultimately leading her to close the business. Passionate about finding new solutions to old problems, Morgan now collaborates with Chloe and Peter to help businesses tackle polarization and inclusivity more meaningfully.Chloé Valdary founded The Theory of Enchantment, an innovative framework for DE&I that emphasizes compassion, curiosity, and emotional resilience. Chloé’s work has gained international recognition for its refreshing take on a traditionally contentious space. She’s committed to depolarizing organizations and fostering environments where diverse perspectives are welcomed and celebrated.Peter Stein partners with Chloé at The Theory of Enchantment, bringing a broad humanist perspective to the world of DE&I. With a background that spans academia and business, Peter focuses on building bridges across ideological divides, helping organizations heal from the harm caused by poorly implemented DE&I practices. His work is rooted in a belief that compassion and open dialogue are key to effective change.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] Introduction: 300th episode celebration and series overview[00:01:00] Introducing guests: Morgan, Chloe, and Peter's unique collaboration[00:03:00] Morgan shares her journey from running a fashion company to her current focus on ethics and DE&I.[00:09:00] The difficulty of finding DE&I approaches that unify rather than divide.[00:16:00] Chloe discusses the harm caused by mainstream DE&I practices and the need for more human-centered approaches.[00:22:00] Peter shares stories of organizations harmed by divisive DE&I programs.[00:36:00] Morgan’s reflections on the value of the Theory of Enchantment’s work in depolarizing organizations.[00:50:00] The power of viewpoint diversity and why curiosity is key to effective DE&I.[00:54:00] Conclusion: What to expect in future episodes featuring more in-depth interviews with each guest.LinksTheory of Enchantment website: https://theoryofenchantment.comMorgan's website: https://www.morganhamel.com/The Governance Certificate in Depolarization run by Morgan: https://www.cpaalberta.ca/Professional-Development/Executive-Programs/Governance-Certificate-in-De-PolarizationJordan Peterson's interview with Chloé: https://youtu.be/3rZkv_prTOk?si=MyPXub1_0AMM-4S0John McWhorter’s book, Woke Racism: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/696856/woke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/Bud Light Diversity Controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Light_boycott

How does neurodiversity impact creativity? On this episode, I explore the challenges of mental health and how it can be both a driver of astonishing creativity and the cause of significant pain. I believe that having conversations about mental health is crucial if we want to create an inclusive society and get the best out of everyone. To discuss this topic, I’m joined by the incredibly talented Matt Ottley, an author, illustrator, composer, and musician whose work spans multiple mediums and touches on profound themes. Matt’s journey as a creative artist has been deeply shaped by his experiences with Type 1 Bipolar Disorder, giving him a unique, and sometimes challenging, perspective on creativity and mental health. Together, we discuss how Matt’s mental health has influenced his artistic process, how he navigates the extreme highs and lows of bipolar disorder, and how these experiences have culminated in his latest work, The Tree of Ecstasy and Unbearable Sadness. This project is a powerful multimedia exploration of psychosis and recovery, blending music, art, and storytelling. Matt has generously shared some of his music with us for the episode, so you’ll hear his words and his art. Whether you’re interested in how art intersects with mental health, curious about how neurodiversity shapes creativity, or simply want to hear an inspiring story of personal challenges turned into extraordinary work, this is a conversation you won’t want to miss.Biography of the Guest: Matt Ottley is an acclaimed Australian artist, composer, author, and illustrator whose work spans multiple disciplines, including visual art, literature, and music. Born in Papua New Guinea and later raised in Australia, Matt’s career has seen him navigate a diverse range of artistic pursuits, from working as a flamenco and classical guitarist to composing orchestral works and illustrating children’s books. However, what makes Matt’s story truly compelling is how his experiences with Type 1 Bipolar Disorder have shaped his artistic journey.In addition to being a highly respected figure in the Australian arts community, Matt’s work often delves into profound and deeply personal themes, particularly around mental health. His most recent multimedia project, The Tree of Ecstasy and Unbearable Sadness, is a powerful and immersive exploration of psychosis and recovery. This ambitious blend of visual art, music, and storytelling has been described as a groundbreaking representation of the experience of living with bipolar disorder. Beyond his personal website, Matt’s work has been recognized globally. He has exhibited in major galleries, published numerous books, and collaborated with orchestras to create performances that fuse sound and sight. His art and music often reflect his internal experiences and challenges, offering a window into the complexities of neurodiversity. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary of Key Points: [00:00:00] – Introduction by Christian Hunt, explaining the episode’s focus on mental health, creativity, and neurodiversity.[00:01:00] – Christian introduces Matt Ottley, highlighting his artistic career and experiences with bipolar disorder.[00:03:00] – Matt describes his childhood in Papua New Guinea and Australia and how his early creative talents emerged in unique ways.[00:07:00] – Matt discusses how bipolar disorder first began to shape his creative output and artistic development.[00:12:00] – Explanation of bipolar disorder and its various forms, including Matt’s personal experiences with psychosis.[00:16:00] – The relationship between extreme emotions, creativity, and mental health and how they fuel Matt’s artistic process.[00:23:00] – Matt describes his multimedia project, The Tree of Ecstasy and Unbearable Sadness, as a portrayal of his experiences with psychosis.[00:33:00] – Christian and Matt discuss societal challenges around neurodiversity, creativity, and the stigma attached to mental health.[00:47:00] – Matt explains his creative process, particularly how music, art, and words are deeply intertwined in his work.[01:01:00] – The episode concludes with reflections on empathy, neurodiversity, and the importance of understanding mental health.LinksMatt's website: https://mattottley.com/The Tree of Ecstasy and Unbearable Sadness: https://mattottley.com/product/tree-of-e/ CityLit Mental Wealth Festival: Saturday October 11th – Film Screening of The Tree of Ecstasy and Unbearable Sadness followed by a Q&A with Matt Ottley (via Zoom): https://www.citylit.ac.uk/events/mental-wealth-festival