Ep. 236 - Lillian Daniel "Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church" pt. 1

In Part 2 of our conversation with grief coach, author, and podcaster Shelby Forsythia, we dive deeper into her brand-new book, Of Course I'm Here Right Now.Most of us want to help when someone we love is grieving. The problem is that we've never been taught how. Instead, we fall back on clichés, platitudes, and well-meaning advice that often leaves grieving people feeling even more isolated.Shelby argues that what grieving people need most isn't fixing, solving, or explaining. They need presence.In this episode, we explore why grief makes people uncomfortable, how our culture's lack of grief literacy creates secondary losses, and the surprisingly simple phrases that can help someone feel seen and supported during life's hardest moments.Whether you've experienced profound loss yourself or want to be a better support for someone who has, this conversation offers practical wisdom, compassion, and a fresh way of understanding grief.In This EpisodeWhy grief isn't a problem to solveThe hidden ways people become isolated after lossWhat NOT to say to someone who is grievingWhy "at least..." statements often do more harm than goodThe difference between helping and fixingHow grief changes friendships and relationshipsThe role of presence versus adviceThe importance of grief literacy in modern culturePractical phrases anyone can use to support a grieving friendWhat inspired Shelby to write Of Course I'm Here Right NowWhy grief can become one of life's greatest teachersAbout Shelby ForsythiaShelby Forsythia is a grief coach, author, podcast host, and founder of Life After Loss Academy. After losing her mother at a young age, she became what she calls a "student of grief," dedicating her work to helping people navigate life after devastating loss. She is the author of Permission to Grieve, Your Grief, Your Way, and her newest book, Of Course I'm Here Right Now: Three Actually Helpful Things to Say to Someone Grieving. Connect with ShelbyWebsite: Shelby Forsythia Official WebsiteBook: Of Course I'm Here Right NowPodcast: Coming Back Podcast ArchiveSupport The DeconstructionistsIf you're enjoying these conversations, consider supporting our newly relaunched Patreon. Members receive:Ad-free episodesExtended conversations and bonus contentVideo versions of select interviewsEarly access to new episodesExclusive Patreon-only contentJoin us at:The Deconstructionists PatreonFollow The DeconstructionistsWebsite: www.thedeconstructionsits.org Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/thedeconstructionistspodcastIf you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps others discover the show and supports independent creators.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What happens when grief changes not just your life… but your identity?In part one of this conversation, John sits down with author, grief guide, and speaker Shelby Forsythia to discuss her new book and the complicated, deeply human realities of loss, healing, and personal transformation.Together, they explore the myths we inherit about grief, why so many people feel pressure to “move on” too quickly, and how grief can quietly reshape our relationships, spirituality, and sense of self. Rather than offering clichés or easy answers, Shelby approaches grief with honesty, compassion, and a willingness to sit with uncertainty — something longtime listeners of The Deconstructionists will likely find familiar.Topics include:Why grief is not a linear processThe cultural pressure to “get over” lossHow grief impacts identity and spiritualityEmotional honesty versus performative healingWhy many people feel isolated in their painThe connection between grief and personal growthLearning to live alongside loss rather than “defeating” itShelby’s work offers a compassionate alternative to the toxic positivity and oversimplified narratives that often surround grief conversations.If this conversation resonates with you, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone who may need it.Support The DeconstructionistsWe’ve officially relaunched our Patreon with new perks and content tiers.Supporters now get access to:Full ad-free episodesBonus contentExclusive educational materialsVideo versions of interviewsCommunity discussionsAnd more content coming soonYou can support the show and join the community here:[Insert Patreon Link]Connect With Shelby Forsythiahttps://www.shelbyforsythia.com/Connect With The DeconstructionistsWebsite: www.thedeconstructionsts.org Patreon: If you enjoy the show, leaving a rating or review really does help independent podcasts continue to grow.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What if one of the most influential ideas in modern Christianity… didn’t actually come from Jesus?In this episode of The Deconstructionists Podcast, we explore the history and impact of dualism — the ancient belief that spirit is good while matter, bodies, and the physical world are somehow lesser, corrupt, or evil.From Plato and Greek philosophy to Gnosticism and modern evangelical culture, we trace how dualistic thinking quietly shaped theology, sexuality, purity culture, views of the body, the afterlife, politics, and even the way many Christians understand salvation itself.We ask questions like:Why have so many Christians viewed the body with suspicion?Did the Bible actually teach a sharp divide between “spiritual” and “physical”?How did Greek philosophy influence early Christianity?Why do some forms of Christianity focus so heavily on “escaping the world”?What happens when faith becomes disconnected from embodiment, justice, and humanity?And what might a more holistic, integrated spirituality look like?Along the way, we discuss:Plato and the influence of Greek metaphysicsGnosticism and the material/spiritual divideThe Hebrew understanding of embodied humanityPaul’s writings and common misunderstandings about “flesh”Heaven, resurrection, and the renewal of creationPurity culture and body shameThe lasting influence of dualism on modern evangelicalismDeconstruction, embodiment, and recovering wholenessThis conversation explores how ideas developed historically — and how those ideas still shape people’s lives today, often in ways they don’t even realize.Whether you come from an evangelical background, are in the middle of deconstruction, or are simply interested in theology, philosophy, and history, this episode offers a deeper look at one of the hidden frameworks underneath modern Christianity.Topics CoveredDualism in ChristianityPlato and Greek philosophyGnosticismEmbodiment and spiritualityResurrection theologyPurity cultureBiblical anthropologyEvangelical theologyDeconstruction and reconstructionMind/body divideSpiritual formationSupport The DeconstructionistsIf you enjoy the show and want to support independent conversations like this, consider joining us on Patreon for:Ad-free episodesBonus contentExtended interviewsEducational deep divesCommunity discussionsLink: https://www.patreon.com/cw/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast You can also grab merch and find all of our links here:www.thedeconstructionists.org Follow The DeconstructionistsInstagramFacebookYouTubeIf this episode resonated with you, leaving a review and sharing the episode helps more than you know.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In Part 2 of our conversation, Bart Ehrman returns to discuss his latest book, Love Thy Stranger, and the lasting impact Jesus’ teachings had on moral thought in the Western world.We continue exploring how ideas surrounding compassion, forgiveness, charity, and care for outsiders emerged within early Christianity — while also wrestling with the ways institutions and political movements have often failed to embody those same values.In this episode we discuss:The tension between the teachings of Jesus and modern political ChristianityImmigration, nationalism, and “loving your neighbor”How moral frameworks evolve over timeThe role Christianity played in shaping Western ethicsHistorical misunderstandings about the ancient worldWhy empathy and human dignity remain central themes in Jesus’ messageBe sure to check out Dr. Ehrman’s new book, Love Thy Stranger, available now wherever books are sold.Guest BioBart Ehrman is a New Testament scholar, historian of early Christianity, and the author of numerous bestselling books including Misquoting Jesus, Heaven and Hell, Jesus Interrupted, and How Jesus Became God. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.Support The DeconstructionistsIf you enjoy the show, there are several ways to support us:Join our Patreon for ad-free episodes, bonus content, educational videos, study guides, and moreCheck out our merch store for brand-new designs and returning favoritesLeave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platformShare the episode with a friendMore info at: www.thedeconstructionsts.org Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Dr. Bart Ehrman – Love Thy Stranger: How the Teachings of Jesus Transformed the Moral Conscience of the West (Part 1)In Part 1 of our conversation with renowned New Testament scholar and historian Dr. Bart Ehrman, we dive into his latest book, "Love Thy Stranger: How the Teachings of Jesus Transformed the Moral Conscience of the West".For centuries, people have debated whether Christianity has been a force for compassion or division. But what if one of the most radical moral ideas in human history came directly from the teachings of Jesus himself?In this episode, Bart explores how concepts like caring for the poor, loving enemies, and extending compassion beyond one’s tribe were not common moral assumptions in the ancient world—and how the teachings attributed to Jesus helped reshape Western moral imagination over time.We also discuss:What morality looked like in the ancient Greco-Roman worldWhy compassion was often viewed as weakness in antiquityThe historical context surrounding Jesus’ teachingsThe difference between Jesus’ message and later Christian institutionsWhether modern secular morality still carries the fingerprints of ChristianityWhy many people misunderstand the historical JesusThe tension between the teachings of Jesus and modern Christian nationalismHow history complicates simplistic narratives about religion’s role in societyAs always, this conversation approaches faith, history, and culture through the lens of scholarship, curiosity, and honest dialogue.About Dr. Bart EhrmanDr. Bart Ehrman is one of the world’s leading scholars on the New Testament and early Christianity. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the author of numerous bestselling books including:"Misquoting Jesus""Jesus, Interrupted""Heaven and Hell""Armageddon"His work focuses on the historical Jesus, the development of early Christianity, biblical manuscripts, and how religious ideas evolve over time.Support The DeconstructionistsIf you enjoy conversations like this and want to help support independent podcasts and educational content, there are several great ways to support the show:Join Our PatreonWe recently relaunched our Patreon with brand-new content and community features including:Ad-free episodesBonus episodesEducational videos and study guidesMonthly book clubMembers-only discussions and chatExclusive behind-the-scenes content👉 Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thedeconstructionistsMerch StoreWe also launched brand-new merch designs along with returning fan favorites.👉 Merch Store: https://thedeconstructionists.printify.me/Leave a ReviewOne of the easiest free ways to support the show is by leaving a positive review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It genuinely helps more people discover the podcast.Connect With UsWebsite: https://www.thedeconstructionists.orgBart Ehrman LinksOfficial Website: https://www.bartehrman.comBooks & Courses: https://www.bartehrman.com/books/Blog: https://ehrmanblog.orgThank you for listening to The Deconstructionists Podcast.Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Bart Ehrman will be available soon.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In Part 2 of our conversation with Lillian Daniel, we move deeper into the tensions at the heart of her story—and the bigger questions it raises for the modern church.If Part 1 explored what happened, this episode asks what it means.We talk about accountability, institutional systems, and whether the church is actually capable of handling failure in a way that leads to healing rather than harm.📚 About Lillian DanielLillian Daniel is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ and currently serves as a Conference Minister, overseeing churches and clergy across Michigan.She has taught preaching at institutions including Yale Divinity School and the University of Chicago, and is the author of multiple books on faith, ministry, and the evolving role of the church.Her latest book, Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church, explores her own experience with discipline, failure, and restoration—and what it reveals about the systems meant to hold leaders accountable.🔗 Stay Connected • Website: https://www.thedeconstructionists.org • Patreon: Support the show and get ad-free, extended interviews: https://www.patreon.com/cw/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast • Follow along for more conversations with scholars, authors, and thinkers exploring faith, doubt, and everything in betweenAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

📝 Episode SummaryDrawing from her new book, Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church, Lillian shares her journey through ministry, the unexpected challenges she encountered, and the moments that forced her to rethink long-held assumptions about leadership, faith, and belonging.This episode is an honest look at what happens when certainty begins to crack—and why that might not be the end of faith, but the beginning of something more real.📚 About the BookDefrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better ChurchA candid and often humorous reflection on ministry, failure, and the possibility of a more honest and compassionate church. Lillian Daniel offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at pastoral life—challenging assumptions while pointing toward a healthier future.👤 About the GuestLillian Daniel is a United Church of Christ minister, author, and speaker known for her wit, honesty, and thoughtful critique of modern church culture. Her work often explores faith, doubt, leadership, and the evolving role of the church in contemporary life.🔗 Resources & Links • Find Lillian’s book wherever books are sold • Learn more about her work and writing: www.lilliandaniel.com 🎙️ Support the ShowIf you enjoyed this episode, you can support The Deconstructionists Podcast by: • Joining our Patreon for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and educational videos: https://www.patreon.com/cw/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast • Checking out our merch store (ships worldwide): https://thedeconstructionists.printify.me/ • Leaving a rating & review—it really helps others find the showAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What happens when the version of you that survived… isn’t the version of you that’s whole?In Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Cristy Carr, we move deeper—beyond awareness and into the work of healing. Together, we explore what it looks like to reconnect with the parts of ourselves that were silenced, shaped, or suppressed by trauma, religious systems, and the need to belong.This episode isn’t about quick fixes or easy answers. It’s about the slow, often uncomfortable process of becoming whole again.Dr. Cristy Carr is a therapist, speaker, and author of The Forgotten Self. Her work focuses on trauma, identity formation, and helping individuals reconnect with their authentic selves—especially those navigating faith transitions and deconstruction.❤️ Support The ShowIf you found this conversation meaningful, there are a few ways to support The Deconstructionists Podcast: • ⭐ Leave a rating & review • 🔁 Share this episode with someone who might need it • 👕 Check out our merch store (ships worldwide!) www.thedeconstructionists.org • 🎥 Join our Patreon for ad-free episodes, exclusive content, and educational deep dives:👉 https://www.patreon.com/cw/TheDeconstructionistsPodcastSpecial music provided by: Forrest Clay from the Recover EP. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

🧭 Episode SummaryWho were you… before you were told who to be?For many of us—especially those shaped by religious systems—identity isn’t something we discovered. It’s something we inherited.Beliefs. Roles. Expectations.All layered over time until the line between who we are and who we were told to be becomes hard to see.In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, we sit down with Cristy S. Carr to explore the core ideas behind her book The Forgotten Self—and what it means to lose connection with ourselves in the pursuit of certainty, belonging, and faithfulness.This episode is less about what we believe…and more about who we’ve become in the process of believing.📚 About the GuestCristy S. Carr is an author, theologian, and speaker whose work focuses on identity, spirituality, and the process of reconnecting with the self. Her book The Forgotten Self explores how we lose touch with who we are—and how we begin to find our way back.Grab a copy of her new book: https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Self-Remember-Who-Truly/dp/B0G51WPJZN🔥 Support the ShowIf you want to support The Deconstructionists Podcast:🎥 Join our PatreonGet access to exclusive content, deep-dive educational videos, and bonus conversations👉 https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast 👕 Check out our merch storeNew designs + classic favorites🌎 Ships worldwidewww.thedeconstructionsts.org ⭐ Leave a reviewIt helps more people find the showAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode: Violence and the Bible – What Do We Do With It?🧭 Episode SummaryViolence is everywhere in the Bible—and for many, it’s one of the most difficult aspects of scripture to reconcile with the idea of a loving God.In this episode, John explores one of the most pressing and personal questions facing modern readers of the Bible:What do we do with the violence in scripture—and what does it mean for us today?Prompted by a recent discussion group and unfolding global events, this episode wrestles with: • Whether violence is ever justified • The ethics of war, self-defense, and state power • How ancient texts have been used—and misused—to justify modern violenceRather than offering easy answers, this conversation leans into the tension, drawing on biblical scholarship, theology, and ethical philosophy to better understand what the Bible is—and what it is not.📚 Scholars & Works Referenced🧠 Foundational Biblical & Ethical Scholarship • Peter Enns — How the Bible Actually Works→ Argues that the Bible reflects the perspectives of ancient people trying to understand God, rather than functioning as a rulebook dictated from heaven. • Greg Boyd — The Crucifixion of the Warrior God→ Proposes that violent portrayals of God in the Old Testament are refracted through human understanding and ultimately point toward the nonviolent revelation of God in Jesus. • Eric A. Seibert — Disturbing Divine Behavior→ Explores troubling depictions of God in scripture and argues that not all portrayals of God in the Bible should be accepted as morally authoritative. • John J. Collins — Does the Bible Justify Violence?→ Examines how biblical texts have historically been used to justify violence and urges careful, contextual interpretation. • Miroslav Volf — Exclusion and Embrace→ Reflects on violence, justice, and reconciliation in light of human conflict and the Christian call to forgiveness.🧠 Ethical & Philosophical Perspectives • Jonathan Sacks — Essays on Ethics→ Engages deeply with moral questions surrounding violence, responsibility, and the misuse of religious texts. • Stanley Hauerwas — The Peaceable Kingdom→ Advocates for a distinctly Christian ethic rooted in nonviolence and the teachings of Jesus. • Reinhold Niebuhr — Moral Man and Immoral Society→ Explores the tension between personal ethics and collective political responsibility, including the justification of force.💬 Join the ConversationWhat do you think?Is violence ever justified? How do you interpret the difficult passages in scripture?Join us on social or continue the conversation on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcastAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy