Ep. 232 - Dr. Michelle Keener "Comfort in the Ashes" pt. 2

The Deconstructionists PodcastGuest: Dr. Michelle KeenerIn Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Michelle Keener, we go deeper into the themes of her book, Comfort in the Ashes: Explorations in the Book of Job to Support Trauma Survivors, and what it means to engage scripture after certainty has cracked.If Part 1 explored how harmful interpretations take root, this episode focuses on what comes after—especially for those navigating trauma, deconstruction, and the loss of familiar frameworks.In this episode, we discuss:How trauma reshapes identity, faith, and one’s image of GodWhy grief, anger, and protest are not spiritual failuresHow Job’s refusal to accept easy answers can be a model for honestyWhat it looks like to reconstruct meaning without rushing toward certaintyDr. Keener brings both scholarly depth and deep compassion to this conversation, offering language and insight for experiences many people struggle to name.If you’ve ever been told your pain needed a theological explanation…If you’ve been pressured to “trust God” instead of being heard…Or if you’re learning how to hold faith with open hands—This conversation is for you.Guest Bio:Dr. Michelle Keener is a scholar, writer, and educator whose work centers on biblical interpretation, trauma-informed theology, and care for those harmed by religious systems. Her book Comfort in the Ashes explores how the Book of Job can be reclaimed as a companion for trauma survivors rather than a weapon used against them.https://www.michellekeener.com/For all things Deconstructionists: www.thedeconstructionsts.orgPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcastSpecial Music Provided By: Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this first part of our conversation, we’re joined by Dr. Michelle Keener, author of Comfort in the Ashes: Explorations in the Book of Job to Support Trauma Survivors.The Book of Job is often cited in conversations about suffering—but just as often, it’s been used to minimize pain, rush people toward answers, or reinforce harmful ideas about God, blame, and endurance. In Comfort in the Ashes, Dr. Keener offers a different approach: one that reads Job through the lens of trauma, care, and lived human experience.In Part 1, we focus on foundations:How the Book of Job has traditionally been taught—and why those interpretations often fail trauma survivorsThe difference between theological explanation and pastoral careWhy certainty can feel safer than honesty, even when it causes harmHow questioning inherited beliefs can be an act of survival, not rebellionThis conversation isn’t about solving suffering or defending doctrine.It’s about slowing down, listening well, and making room for pain without trying to explain it away.Guest Bio:Dr. Michelle Keener is a scholar, writer, and educator whose work centers on biblical interpretation, trauma-informed theology, and care for those harmed by religious systems. Her book Comfort in the Ashes explores how the Book of Job can be reclaimed as a companion for trauma survivors rather than a weapon used against them.https://www.michellekeener.com/For all things Deconstructionists: www.thedeconstructionsts.orgPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcastSpecial Music Provided By: Forrest Clay from his Recover EP. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In Part Two of our conversation with John Dominic Crossan and Michael Okinczyc-Cruz, we move from historical foundations to present-day consequences.Once Jesus is understood within the realities of Roman imperial power, the implications become unavoidable — especially in a moment when Christianity in the United States is increasingly entangled with political authority, violence, and domination.In this episode, we explore:The meaning of the “Kingdom of God” in contrast to imperial powerNonviolence, resistance, and the cost of discipleshipHow Christianity shifted from challenging empire to aligning with itThe difference between domination systems and distributive justiceWhy these ancient tensions feel so familiar todayThis isn’t about telling listeners what to believe politically.It’s about asking whether Christianity still resembles the movement it began as — or whether comfort and power have rewritten the story.Why This Conversation Matters NowThe questions raised in this episode aren’t abstract or theoretical. They echo loudly in today’s debates about nationalism, violence, faith, and identity in the United States.By grounding the conversation in history, Crossan and Okinczyc-Cruz offer listeners tools — not talking points — to think critically about how faith operates in the real world.Continue the ConversationIf this episode resonated with you, we encourage you to explore the works linked above and join us for ongoing discussions at www.thedeconstructionsts.org where you can join our Patreon, read our blog, and listen to our entire back catalogue of over 200 episodes! Special music provide by: Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of The Deconstructionists Podcast, we’re joined by John Dominic Crossan and Michael Okinczyc-Cruz for the first part of a wide-ranging conversation about Jesus, empire, and why historical context matters now more than ever.As religion, power, and nationalism continue to collide in the United States, this conversation feels remarkably timely — not because it’s reacting to current events, but because it’s rooted deeply in history.In Part One, we focus on setting the foundation:The world of the Roman Empire and how it shaped early ChristianityWhy Jesus must be understood as a first-century Jewish figure under imperial occupationWhat happens when modern readers remove Jesus from his historical contextWhy asking historical questions doesn’t weaken faith — but often deepens itThis episode invites listeners to take the Bible seriously enough to let it challenge modern assumptions about power, violence, and faithfulness.About Our GuestsJohn Dominic Crossan is one of the most influential New Testament scholars of the last fifty years. A historian of early Christianity and co-founder of the Jesus Seminar, Crossan has written extensively on the historical Jesus, the Roman Empire, and the political implications of early Christian theology.Michael Okinczyc-Cruz is a scholar whose work focuses on empire, power, and the intersection of theology, politics, and economic systems. His research explores how religious ideas function in real historical and social contexts — especially under conditions of domination.Together, they bring historical rigor and moral clarity to questions that remain deeply relevant today.Featured Works & LinksJohn Dominic CrossanJesus: A Revolutionary Biographyhttps://www.harpercollins.com/products/jesus-a-revolutionary-biography-john-dominic-crossanThe Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasanthttps://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-historical-jesus-john-dominic-crossanGod and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Nowhttps://www.harpercollins.com/products/god-and-empire-john-dominic-crossanHow to Read the Bible and Still Be a Christianhttps://www.harpercollins.com/products/how-to-read-the-bible-and-still-be-a-christian-john-dominic-crossanMichael Okinczyc-CruzThe Politics of Discipleship (with John Dominic Crossan)https://www.fortresspress.com/store/productgroup/553/The-Politics-of-DiscipleshipSpecial Music Provided by: Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.For all things Deconstructionists go to www.thedeconstructionists.org Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this deeply moving conversation, John sits down for part two with Valentyn Syniy, a Ukrainian pastor, theologian, and author whose life and ministry have been profoundly shaped by the reality of war.This interview was recorded under extraordinary circumstances. Scheduling had to account for the very real possibility of Russian airstrikes and power outages. Valentyn’s wife graciously joined the conversation to assist with translation at moments, helping ensure that everything Valentyn wanted to communicate was conveyed with clarity and care.Together, we explore:What it means to live, pastor, and hold onto faith in the midst of active warHow violence and trauma test long-held theological assumptionsThe difference between discussing war and surviving itWhere hope, honesty, and spiritual resilience are found when everything familiar is under siegeSome stories shared in this episode may be difficult to hear, but they are necessary—and deeply human.About the BookValentyn is the author of God Under Siege, a powerful and unflinching reflection on faith, suffering, and God’s presence amid the devastation of war. Drawing from lived experience rather than distant theology, the book challenges easy answers and invites readers into a more honest, grounded faith.Get the book:AmazonMajor booksellersWherever books are soldThe Music For this Episode: Forrest Clay "Child of War" Support the Show — Join Our PatreonWe’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for.Subscribers get access to:Brand new exclusive videos on requested topicsStudy guides for deeper reflection and group useReference materials and sources to support further learningBehind-the-scenes content and extended conversationsIf you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper.Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible.For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.orgSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this deeply moving conversation, John sits down with Valentyn Syniy, a Ukrainian pastor, theologian, and author whose life and ministry have been profoundly shaped by the reality of war.For many of us—especially those who have never served or lived in a war-torn region—war can feel abstract. Something debated from a distance. Should troops be sent? Should they not? But for Valentyn and millions of others, war is not theoretical. It is daily life. It is uncertainty, fear, loss—and for many, hell experienced in the here and now.This interview was recorded under extraordinary circumstances. Scheduling had to account for the very real possibility of Russian airstrikes and power outages. Valentyn’s wife graciously joined the conversation to assist with translation at moments, helping ensure that everything Valentyn wanted to communicate was conveyed with clarity and care.Together, we explore:What it means to live, pastor, and hold onto faith in the midst of active warHow violence and trauma test long-held theological assumptionsThe difference between discussing war and surviving itWhere hope, honesty, and spiritual resilience are found when everything familiar is under siegeSome stories shared in this episode may be difficult to hear, but they are necessary—and deeply human.About the BookValentyn is the author of God Under Siege, a powerful and unflinching reflection on faith, suffering, and God’s presence amid the devastation of war. Drawing from lived experience rather than distant theology, the book challenges easy answers and invites readers into a more honest, grounded faith.Get the book:AmazonMajor booksellersWherever books are soldSupport the Show — Join Our PatreonWe’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for.Subscribers get access to:Brand new exclusive videos on requested topicsStudy guides for deeper reflection and group useReference materials and sources to support further learningBehind-the-scenes content and extended conversationsIf you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper.Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible.For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.orgSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This episode dismantles the most persistent myths surrounding immigration and replaces them with how the system actually works.We walk through immigration policy historically and in real time—naming the racial roots of U.S. immigration law, explaining why “just do it legally” is not a serious policy position, and breaking down the real costs, timelines, and barriers people face today.We also look at crime data, benefits myths, economic contributions, and the very real impact current enforcement strategies are having on American farmers and food systems.Topics coveredWhy immigration law has always been shaped by racePolicies that restricted Italians, Asians, and other groupsObama-era deportations vs. today’s enforcement tacticsWhy deportation numbers vary depending on who’s countingReal immigration pathways, timelines, and costsWhy asylum is slow—and dangerous to wait throughCrime data vs. fear narrativesTaxes, benefits, and economic contributionFarm labor shortages and food supply impactsWhy immigration reform is urgent—not theoreticalKey historical policies referencedChinese Exclusion Act (1882)Immigration Act of 1917Emergency Quota Act (1921)Immigration Act of 1924 (Johnson–Reed Act / National Origins Act)Immigration system & policy resourcesU.S. State Department — Visa Bulletinhttps://travel.state.gov/visa-bulletinU.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services — Asylum & Work Authorizationhttps://www.uscis.gov/asylumhttps://www.uscis.gov/i-765Migration Policy Institutehttps://www.migrationpolicy.orgCrime & data resourcesNational Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine — Immigration & Crime Summaryhttps://nap.nationalacademies.org/resource/21746/issue_brief_crime.pdfPNAS peer-reviewed study (Texas arrest data)https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014704117Cato Institute — Incarceration Rates by Immigration Statushttps://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/illegal-immigrant-incarceration-rates-2010-2023Benefits, taxes & economyNational Immigration Law Center — Benefits Eligibilityhttps://www.nilc.org/resources/overview-immeligfedprograms/Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP)https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/Agriculture & labor impactWisconsin Public Radio — Farm labor shortageshttps://www.wpr.org/news/deportations-worry-farmers-labor-shortage-harvestDairy Herd Management — ICE raids and dairy workforce losshttps://www.dairyherd.com/news/labor/overnight-exodus-how-ice-raid-cut-dairys-workforce-more-halfReflection questionIf the system looked then the way it looks now—who would have been allowed in at all?Support the Show — Join Our PatreonWe’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for.Subscribers get access to:Brand new exclusive videos on requested topicsStudy guides for deeper reflection and group useReference materials and sources to support further learningBehind-the-scenes content and extended conversationsIf you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper.Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible.For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.orgSpecial music provided by: Forrest Clay from the Recover EP. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This episode steps back and asks a harder question:What has the church done in moments like this before—and what does faithfulness actually require now?We begin with church history, tracing how Christians have repeatedly been asked to bless state violence in the name of order and safety. We examine how labels like “criminal,” “terrorist,” and “threat” have historically been used to short-circuit moral responsibility.We then turn to Scripture—not as proof texts, but as story—allowing the biblical narrative to confront modern assumptions about power, violence, and the stranger.Topics coveredHistorical patterns of Christian complicity with state violenceWhy labels matter more than we thinkFalse equivalence arguments (“what about…”)Why due process is a moral issueJesus, the stranger, and state powerWhy faith rooted in the margins looks differentScripture referencedExodus 22:21Leviticus 19:33–34Deuteronomy 10:18–19Isaiah 1Amos 5Micah 6:8Luke 10:25–37Matthew 25:31–46Matthew 26:52John 18–19Romans 12–13 (read together, not selectively)Historical & analytical resourcesMigration Policy Institute — Immigration & Enforcement Analysishttps://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/explainersTransactional Records Access Clearinghousehttps://tracreports.orgReflection questionWho are we being asked to look away from—and what does that cost our faith?Support the Show — Join Our PatreonWe’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for.Subscribers get access to:Brand new exclusive videos on requested topicsStudy guides for deeper reflection and group useReference materials and sources to support further learningBehind-the-scenes content and extended conversationsIf you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper.Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible.For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.orgSpecial music provided by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

When Fear Becomes PolicyIn this episode, we address what’s happening right now in the United States as Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) operations escalate in visibility, intensity, and violence.This is not a political episode.It’s a human one.We examine verified facts, video evidence, and legal realities surrounding recent enforcement actions, including documented cases involving American citizens, the failure to follow established protocols after lethal force, and the growing pattern of intimidation, escalation, and public spectacle.We also talk about confirmation bias—how fear and identity shape what we’re willing to see—and why Christians and the spiritually curious alike have a responsibility to trust evidence over narratives.Topics coveredWhat ICE can and cannot legally doWhy due process matters even when immigration law is involvedThe danger of pre-justifying violenceConfirmation bias and moral shortcutsWhy “order” is not the same thing as justiceThe role of witnesses, neighbors, and alliesKey resources & linksAmerican Civil Liberties Union — Know Your Rights (Immigrants & Bystanders)https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/immigrants-rightsNational Lawyers Guild — Legal Observers & Recording Rightshttps://www.nlg.org/legal-observers/Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC Immigration)Independent reporting on ICE enforcement and immigration court datahttps://tracreports.org/immigrationReflection questionWhen fear is loud and authority is visible, how do we decide what we’re willing to accept—and what we’re willing to question?Support the Show — Join Our PatreonWe’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for.Subscribers get access to:Brand new exclusive videos on requested topicsStudy guides for deeper reflection and group useReference materials and sources to support further learningBehind-the-scenes content and extended conversationsIf you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper.Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible.For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.orgSpecial music provided by Forrest Clay from his Recover EP. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode DescriptionIn Part Two of our conversation with Alexander Shaia, we move beyond theory and into practice—exploring what spiritual transformation actually looks like in real life.In Part One, we traced the foundations of Dr. Shaia’s work and why his approach to the Gospels resonates so deeply with people navigating faith, doubt, and deconstruction. In this episode, we go deeper—into lived experience, inner change, and the courage it takes to move forward when certainty falls away.Dr. Shaia shares how spiritual frameworks are meant to form us, not control us, and why the Christian tradition—at its best—has always been about movement, growth, and becoming. This conversation speaks especially to those who feel stuck between belief and disbelief, longing for a faith that can hold both honesty and hope.About Our GuestAlexander Shaia is a theologian, speaker, and author best known for his work on the transformational structure of the Gospels. His book, Heart and Mind, explores the fourfold journey found within the Christian tradition and presents a compelling alternative to rigid, belief-based models of faith.Dr. Shaia’s work has become especially meaningful for those who are deconstructing inherited belief systems while still seeking depth, wisdom, and spiritual grounding.Education:Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, CA, 1991Graduate Certificate, Pastoral Psychotherapy, University of Puget Sound, Tacoma, WA, 1982Master of Religious Education, Seattle University, Seattle, WA, 1981M.A., Counseling Education, University of Alabama in Birmingham, Birmingham, AL, 1976B.A., Cultural Anthropology, University of Notre Dame du lac, Notre Dame, IN, 1974Jungian and Sandplay Studies, 1973 - Current; month intensive with Dora M. Kalff – Jungian analyst & originator of Sandplay, Zollikon, Switzerland, July/August 1989Psychosynthesis Certificate, Psychosynthesis Training Institute, San Francisco, CA, Two year training, 1986-1988 Website: www.quadratos.org Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/quadratos/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/Quadratos1/featuredFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/AlexanderJohnShaia/Support the ShowIf you’d like to help support The Deconstructionists Podcast and go deeper with the kinds of conversations we’re having here, check out our brand-new Patreon. Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast🎧 Book of the Month Club is back📚 Educational resources & study guides available for anyone supporting the show at $5/month or more—less than the price of most Starbucks drinks💛 Your support helps keep the show independent and sustainableListen & ConnectSubscribe wherever you get your podcastsFollow us on social media for clips and updatesShare this episode with someone navigating faith, doubt, or transitionWebsite: www.thedeconstructionists.org Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy