Episode 7.5: Trump and the Era of Ungoverning: A Discussion with Russell Muirhead and Nancy Rosenblum

Interviewer: MATTHEW ROTH. In their 2024 book Ungoverning: The Attack on the Administrative State and the Politics of Chaos, Professors RUSSELL MUIRHEAD (Dartmouth) and NANCY ROSENBLUM (Harvard) analyze the emergence of “ungoverning,” a political trend aimed at limiting or dismantling key functions of the administrative state. They situate this development within broader shifts in American politics, tracing its roots to earlier debates over the role of government and examining how it has been intensified in the Trump era.  In conversation with historian Matthew Roth, they reflect on what makes this movement distinctive, the challenges it poses for democratic governance, and the importance of safeguarding (and also reforming) the administrative state.

Interviewer: JOSHUA ROSE.  Historian and Penn Professor SOPHIA ROSENFELD discusses her new book The Age of Choice: A History of Freedom in Modern Life, exploring how choice became central to modern ideas of freedom — and why our obsession with it can leave us anxious, overwhelmed, and divided. From the rise of shopping and religious freedom to romance, politics, and reproductive rights, she traces the surprising history and complicated legacy of living in an “age of choice.”

Interviewer: MATTHEW ROTH. When the Sars-CoV-2 spread across the world in the spring of 2020, it triggered unprecedented lockdowns in nearly every country, including democracies where such drastic measures were previously considered unlikely to be feasible. The hope was that the virus could be stopped and eventually eliminated, and that deaths could be minimized in the meantime. In their new book, In Covid’s Wake: How Our Politics Failed Us, political scientists FRANCES LEE and STEPHEN MACEDO examine the sequence of decisions that led to these policies and conclude that not only did they not work as envisioned, but that the decision-making process itself was deeply flawed. In their conversation with historian Matthew Roth, the authors describe the pre-existing consensus among health officials, that non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs) would likely be counterproductive; how that consensus quickly flipped during the crisis, after which open debate was stifled; the political polarization that led to different measures in different U.S. states; and the reasons why the comparative, pre-vaccine mortality data from the states show no sign of that a more stringent approach helped. 

Interviewer: RAFAEL KHACHATURIAN. In this episode, host Rafael Khachaturian speaks with sociologist and political theorist NARA ROBERTA SILVA about the trajectory of Brazil’s left over the past two decades. Together, they unpack the rise and contradictions of the Workers' Party (PT), Brazil’s role in the Latin American “pink tide,” and the tensions between grassroots mobilization, state power, and neoliberal constraint. From participatory budgeting in Porto Alegre to Lula’s turn to pragmatic governance, Silva offers a sharp, historically grounded reflection on the promises and limits of leftist rule in the Global South. The conversation also turns to the reactionary surge that followed, tracing the conditions that enabled Jair Bolsonaro’s rise.

Interviewer: MATTHEW ROTH. In an era that has seen the rise of right-wing populism, which has often pitted itself against the institutions of liberal democracy, recent election outcomes in Canada and Australia hint at a counter-trend. Political scientist LORI TURNBULL, an expert on not just Canadian politics but of the nuts-and-bolts of Canadian democracy, guides us through her country’s recent election, which in many ways was similar to that of the 2024 US election. A highly unpopular leader was dragging down the electoral prospects of his party as it was challenged by an insurgent conservative movement. The outcome, however, was very different. In her discussion with historian Matthew Roth, she explores why the the national political landscape changed so swiftly, what the stakes of the recent election were, and how Canadian democratic institutions differ in their functioning and spirit from those of the US. And she assesses the long-term health of Canadian democracy as it faces many of the same cultural and political challenges reshaping the rest of the world, as well as some that are uniquely its own. 

INTERVIEWER: RAFAEL KHACHATURIAN. In this episode, Rafael Khachaturian speaks with IRA ALLEN, Associate Professor of Rhetoric, Writing, and Digital Media Studies at Northern Arizona University, about his latest book, Panic Now: Tools for Humanizing. Allen explores panic as a vital, practical response to the unfolding crises of climate, capitalism, and colonial legacies. He argues for embracing panic as a catalyst for solidarity, novel social forms, and collective resilience in the face of civilizational collapse—offering a provocative rethinking of how we might navigate and even thrive amid uncertainty.

INTERVIWER: YARA DAMAJ. Author SARAH TOWLE discusses her book, Crossing the Line: Finding America in the Borderlands.

INTERVIEWER: CATHY BARTCH. In this episode of the Andrea Mitchell Center Podcast, host Cathy Bartch is joined by environmental experts CAROLINA ANGEL BOTERO and FERNANDA JIMENEZ to explore innovative approaches to democracy that extend beyond traditional, human-centered perspectives. Together, they discuss the Rights of Nature movement emerging from Latin America, the complexities of recognizing ecosystems as democratic participants, and how redefining our relationship with the natural world could shape a more inclusive and equitable democratic future.

INTERVIEWER: MATT BERKMAN. In this episode, Matt Berkman speaks with OSMAN BALKAN, Associate Director of the Huntsman Program at the University of Pennsylvania and author of Dying Abroad: The Political Afterlives of Migration in Europe. Their conversation delves into the profound yet often overlooked decisions migrants face around death and burial—choices that reflect deeply contested questions about belonging, citizenship, and identity. Drawing from Balkan’s firsthand experiences as an undertaker and extensive research in Berlin and Istanbul, this discussion sheds light on how death becomes a site of political struggle and a poignant measure of what "home" truly means in our globalized world.

INTERVIEWER: YARA DAMAJ. The collapse of the Assad regime has reshaped Syria’s political landscape, bringing both significant opportunities and deep uncertainties. This episode unpacks the factors behind Assad’s downfall, the power struggles within the opposition, and the ongoing fight for justice after years of repression. As regional dynamics shift, the future of Syria remains uncertain, with major implications for governance, security, and diplomacy. Penn PhD Candidate YARA DAMAJ interviews IBRAHIM BAKRI, Associate Director of the Andrea Mitchell Center for the Study of Democracy.