12: Bricks, Elephants, and More

Jonathan and Jeff are finally back with a conversation that picks up the threads that were left in the previous episode's topics of Daoist philosophy and technology. Jeff asks Jon if he's seen Spirited Away and tries to make a connection without revealing too much (since as of the time of the recording, Jon had no seen it). They discuss their mutual friend Troy. Digging into their admittedly surface-level understanding of Daoism, they discuss some key themes as they relate to our desire and longing for a worthwhile existence. Jeff suggests there is an empathetic element to Bo Burnham's song about white women on Instagram that is connected to his deeper critique of technology. This leads to a brief inquiry into whether all comedians were nihilists or not -- they suggest that the late great Norm MacDonald did not seem to be.  They circle back to the anarchic underpinnings of Daoist philosophy. They talk about the differences between morality and virtue (in the Daoist sense). They link the Daoist resistance to social norms to Nietzsche's concept of the Apollonian and the Dionysian. Jeff talks about the difference between Bacchus as exhuberance and fecundity (at least as he appears in the Narnian Universe) and Dionysius as destruction and death drive (at least as he appears in Nietzsche). Jon and Jeff bring up (and disagree about) the difference between an understanding of the Way as a kind of origin versus an understanding of it as a kind of ideal. Jeff reflects on the relation of anxiety and Lacanian psychoanalytical thought and the Daoist concept of the uncarved block.  During the second half, they again debate whether the Way is about returning to an originary state of non-striving or whether it is about finding what is nourishing. They discuss the difference between dopamine hits (like if Troy likes one of Jeff's tweets) and true satisfaction or contentment. They return to the topic of technology and its positioning ideologically as a mechanism for freeing us from toil. They talk about the similarities and differences between Daoist and Christian thought. Jon talks about the disgusting way Dale Carnegie's book about winning friends has been used in the business world. Jeff asks about whether evolutionary thought is working to leave certain Victorian-era metaphors behind, and Jon talks about the role of reciprocity in nature and its relationship to the idea of contentment. Jeff finishes with the story of how he recently acquired a stack of books on eastern philosophy (and some other stuff). Got something to say? Email us at [email protected] Show Notes Tao Te Ching, by Lao Tzu Taoism: The Parting of the Way, by Holmes Welch Jr. Spirited Away (Film) "White Woman's Instagram" by Bo Burnham Mythos, by Stephen Fry The Birth of Tragedy, by Friedrich Nietzsche Prince Caspian, by C.S. Lewis Happiness is Not a Fish You Can Catch, by Our Lady Peace How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie 10,000 Dreams Interpreted Music  Theme Music: "What u Thinkin? (Instrumental)" by Wataboi on Pixabay  Intermission Music: "Lazy Morning" by Tim Moor on Pixabay

Jonathan and Jeff continue their discussion of technology and the dilemma of how technology makes things easier, which simultaneously undermines the activities that lead to meaning (e.g., habit-building, etc.). Building off of Alan Jacobs's essay that we raised last time, they discuss the Hong Kong-Berlin philosopher, Yuk Hui, and his idea of cosmotechnics. They discuss the nefarious efforts of technology to capitalize on our fascination with The New; the history of Diet Coke (it's related to Newness); James K.A. Smith, his "cultural liturgies" series, and the centrality of habit-building to the human experience; the sources of our comfort foods; the role of being persistently committed to the mundane; the relationship between habits and the contextual webs that promote or undermine their formation; where does meaning come from and exist; tips on how to navigate complicated books (tl;dr: read a review!); they go into detail about Yuk Hui's initial argument in The Question Concerning Technology, including the role of the Promethean myth in the development of the Western cosmotechnic; how our worldview are shaped by stories, our communities, and other things; whether it's even possible to tell or submit to new stories that shape our orientation to the world; the possibility (or lack thereof) of converting to Eastern Orthodox theology; the way our communities shape our eschatologies; Jeff tries out his Rob Bell impersonation and also riffs on a potential "business fiction" idea; driving fast on the autobahn; the work Chile is doing on its new constitution; Ratatouille; the scandal of particularity vs novelty; Yuk Hui's "new understanding of history"; the inner lives of wolves — with a quick side discussion on Timothy Morton's hyperobjects; and Jeff teases an amazing story about an encounter with the Dao that you’ll only be able to hear if you listen to the next episode! If you would like to send us a note, email us at [email protected]. Show Notes Alan Jacobs, "From Tech Critique to Ways of Living," The New Atlantis: https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/from-tech-critique-to-ways-of-living James K.A. Smith, You Are What You Love Yann Martel, Life of Pi Yuk Hui, The Question Concerning Technology in China Martin Heidegger, The Question Concerning Technology Rick Riordan, The Lightning Thief Mary Shelley, Frankenstein C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce The Heretic (Documentary): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7174366/ John Green, Turtles All the Way Down Music Theme Music: "What u Thinkin? (Instrumental)" by Wataboi on Pixabay Intermission Music: "Lazy Morning" by Tim Moor on Pixabay

Jeff and Jonathan open this next episode in their miniseries on technology by talking about an article by Alan Jacobs that recently appeared in The New Atlantis. The subtitle of this article is: "Neil Postman was right. So what?" Is there a way beyond critique, without losing the true and accurate observations of Postman and others? Jonathan mentions the dark place the technology question has led him to, citing Nietzsche's adage: "the measure of a person is how much truth they can handle." They discuss — and don’t always agree on! — how the valid instrumentalities of the past have given way to a world of "standing reserve." Is it possible to introduce new technologies? What counts as "meaningful"? What is meaning even? They talk about the value of having a friend who can play the theremin, the ongoing prescience of Fern Gully, the value of having a friend who knows how to make a fire (thank you to Jeff’s neighbour!), Owen Barfield’s idea of the evolution of consciousness, Bruderhof communes, the aversion of much of academic culture to conviviality and family, the story of people trying to push so-called “technological advances” on cultures without accounting for that culture’s embeddedness within its existing context. Jeff also gets a scatological Bible story way wrong (i.e., Ezekiel doesn't eat it; he cooks over it — but it does not belong to a dog [Ezekiel 4:12-17]). Want to add your two cents? Email us as [email protected] Show Notes Alan Jacobs, "From Tech Critique to Ways of Living," The New Atlantis: https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/from-tech-critique-to-ways-of-living George Stuart, The Wheelwright's Shop, https://archive.org/details/wheelwrights-shop/mode/2up Owen Barfield, Saving the Appearances: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saving_the_Appearances Andrew Skabelund, "The Gods of Academia: Child Sacrifice in the Ivory Tower," Plough Quarterly: https://www.plough.com/en/topics/life/work/the-gods-of-academia Yuk Hui, Hong Kong-Berlin philosopher: https://twitter.com/digital_objects Music Theme Music: "What u Thinkin? (Instrumental)" by Wataboi on Pixabay Intermission Music: "Lazy Morning" by Tim Moor on Pixabay

Jeff and Jonathan are back with season two of Subjects in Process. Starting off with a series on technology, in this first half of the episode, Jeff and Jonathan attempt to summarize what they think they know, their sources and where they are coming from, and what questions they want to investigate about what Martin Heidegger called “the question concerning technology”. In the second half of the episode – recorded two weeks later – they go into more of their assumptions and lay the groundwork to discuss some shifts in their thinking. Jonathan describes his expectation of discussing the catch-22 of either being carried along by the forces of tech or the blunders of overseeing the impossible task of attempting to confront this and comprehensively design the world, and how he has shifted to considering alternatives beyond this potentially false dilemma. The discussion touches on Albert Borgmann (allegedly not an cyborg); how tech changes birthday parties; the power and limits of tech as revealed by old school and new school computer chess engines; Zeynep Tufekci and the challenges of resulting from too much information; Martin Heidegger and “standing reserve,” or the modern tendency to see the world as merely resource; tech companies “bio-hacking” customers through data and dopamine; the wonders of nerding out; what changes in a fast-changing society; how tech can cut us off from the world; Wendell Berry and the possibilities of resisting tech; transparency of technology and how that impacts human freedom; Super AI and the pros and cons of both its potential failure or success; complexity in the world and the limitations of human understanding; early onset grumpiness and the risks of catastrophizing; addiction and dopamine hits for kids; the confusion of biological and information signals in the modern environment; Nicholas Carr, “The Shallows,” and tech’s impact on our attention span; substantive, instrumentalist, and pluralist views on technology; therapy robots and the tragedy of their potential effectiveness; approaches to combating drug addiction; and if we can preserve what is good and empower individual decision-making.

In this final episode of Season 01, Jonathan and Jeff wrap things up by establishing their definitive positions on all of the topics discussed over the previous 14 episodes. Just kidding! Instead, they reflect on what they discussed, what were the questions raised, and what contributed to the conversational paths they meandered along. They touch on the value of paying kids to do huge, non-utilitarian projects that they express interest in. They discuss the challenge of coming up with definitions and why a good definition can be so satisfying -- and how definitions can still carry the weight of our implicit biases. They talk about how exciting and interesting "big idea" books can be, and how they are probably also only 6% right (that number was of course mathematically deduced and can be wholly relied upon). They ask whether the words "saliva" and "salience" have a common root. (Postscript: They don't!). Jonathan introduces the important concept of "hard pants" -- a term which Jeff has used in work meetings since the recording of this episode. During the second half of the show, they talk about the sorts of topics that they might be interested in discussing during Season 02. Some of the topics mentioned include: technology, myth and symbolism, sci-fi and fantasy, culture-making, and The Two Popes. Prior to reviewing these, Jon raises a few remaining questions he has about capitalism. This leads to a discussion about the centrality of "trust" to so many topics. Jeff and Jon talk about the subject of "culture" and what topics might come up under that category -- including sub-culture, media and entertainment, workplace culture, etc. Jeff goes on a slight rant about the impact of the winds of reality upon the boundaries of Christendom and how this is a good thing that has led to new possibilities. And they finish with some exploration of whether they have received any emails over the course of the season. (The jury is still out on this question.) Speaking of which: if you would like to send us a note, email us at [email protected]. See you next season! Show Notes: A Secular Age by Charles Taylor: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674986916 Sources of the Self by Charles Taylor: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674824263 The Human Condition by Hannah Arendt: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/H/bo29137972.html Podcast: "The Meaning of Life" from The Fundamentalists Podcast with Peter Rollins and Elliott Morgan (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-meaning-of-life/id1346820645?i=1000515703145) After Virtue by Alasdair MacIntyre: https://undpress.nd.edu/9780268035044/after-virtue/ A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller, Jr.: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/114888/a-canticle-for-leibowitz-by-walter-m-miller-jr/ Movie: Raya and the Last Dragon (https://www.disneyplus.com/movies/raya-and-the-last-dragon/6dyengbx3iYK)  Dragonlance Chronicles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonlance_Chronicles) Christ and Culture by H. Richard Niebuhr: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/christ-and-culture-h-richard-niebuhr Podcast: "Left Behind 2014" from Good Christian Fun, feat. Griffin Newman (https://headgum.com/good-christian-fun/left-behind-2014-with-griffin-newman) Music Notes: Theme Music: "What u Thinkin? (Instrumental)" by Wataboi on Pixabay Intermission Music: "Lazy Morning" Tim Moor on Pixabay

Jonathan and Jeff continue their discussion about the name of this very podcast by talking about the idea of the Subject, but not before trying to discern their apostolic succession to famous philosophers of the past. (It is a bit of a stretch, actually.) But once they get back on to that topic, they explore where philosophy gets the necessary kick in its pants to dig into the subject of the Subject, especially via the Masters of Suspicion (Marx, Freud, and Nietzsche). (The discussion of this term raises questions surrounding Paul Ricoeur's idea of the hermeneutics of suspicion vs the hermeneutics of generosity). In the second half of the podcast, Jeff and Jonathan start to dig into some of Julia Kristeva's contributions to the Subject along with other psychoanalytical concepts, such as "the mirror stage," Lacan's typology of the Imaginary, the Symbolic, and the Real, Kristeva's idea of "the semiotic" and "the symbolic," and ultimately "the subject of enunciation" (that tries to explain and position itself in the world symbolically) and "the subject-in-process" (that is constantly being constrained and unable to express itself in its entirety clearly in language). They likely overly (and unfairly) merge Lacan's and Kristeva's thought, particularly with regards to the Real. As they slow their roll on this, though, they begin to ask whether it's absolutely necessary for the Real to be horrific, or whether the Real could be experienced as a miracle and how the Real might be a sign of hope. (Although they do not discuss Kristeva's idea of "abjection".) Jeff and Jonathan also mull the following competition for listeners: Write a short story of 500 words or less that describes what happens when Martin Heidegger, Owen Barfield, and Jean-Paul Sartre look at a tree. (Hint: One of them pukes). Send your entries along (as well as any questions, comments, rants) to [email protected]. Show Notes: The Argument and Action of Plato’s Laws by Leo Strauss (https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/A/bo49994683.html) The Closing of the American Mind by Alan Bloom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Closing_of_the_American_Mind) Deconstruction and the Remainders of Phenomenology by Tilottama Rajan (https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=3636) Saving the Appearances by Owen Barfield (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saving_the_Appearances) Tool-Being by Graham Harman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Harman) Freud and Philosophy by Paul Ricoeur and the hermeneutics of suspicion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics_of_suspicion) Being Wrong by Kathryn Schulz (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/being-wrong-kathryn-schulz?variant=32123000487970)  Game: "The Evolution of Trust" (developed by Nicky Case): https://ncase.me/trust/ Revolution in Poetic Language by Julia Kristeva (http://cup.columbia.edu/book/revolution-in-poetic-language/9780231056434) "The Mirror-Stage as Formative of the Function of the I as Revealed in Psychoanalytic Experience" by Jacques Lacan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_stage; http://www.sholetteseminars.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/LacanMirrorPhase..pdf) The Birth of Tragedy by Friedrich Nietzsche and the ideas of "The Apollonian" vs "The Dionysian" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonian_and_Dionysian) Music Notes: Theme Music: "What u Thinkin? (Instrumental)" by Wataboi on Pixabay Intermission Music: "Lazy Morning" Tim Moor on Pixabay

Jeff and Jonathan switch gears in this episode to talk a bit about the context of the name of the podcast. Reflecting on the experience of being an English student and a Philosophy student, they talk through what they remember about literary and critical theory, before veering into a deep dive on the differences between and backgrounds of Continental and Analytical philosophy -- "One of them cares about Truth, whether or not it is interesting; the other cares about being interesting, whether or not it is True." Which is which? Find out in this episode! Although they do very nearly get to discussing the inspiration behind the podcast title by the absolute end of the episode (with a lot more about this topic coming in the next episode), the topic gives them the opportunity to discuss Hume's turn to sympathy, the Kantian Sublime, the Hegelian dialectic (and Jonathan's slam-dunk paraphrase of the master-slave dialectic and Jeff's not-very-convincing idea of the hippy-yuppy-hipster dialectic), the beauty of Nietzsche's writing and the problems with his moustache (and sister). Jeff reveals some (too many?) details about the parody novel he has been working on, tentatively titled: God's Not NOT Dead.  When they get to the 20th century, Jeff and Jon try to work through the connections between German philosophy and French philosophy/theory. They talk about the two crazy-smart Simones. And finally they explore the way the question of "The Subject" emerges in a unique way once philosophy, language, and psychology come into contact with each other. Want to correct us on anything, or offer Jeff a contract to film his parody novel? Email us at [email protected] Show Notes: The Emergence of Probability by Ian Hacking: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1446901.The_Emergence_of_Probability The Taming of Chance by Ian Hacking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Taming_of_Chance Movie: God's Not Dead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God%27s_Not_Dead_(film) Music Notes: Theme Music: "What u Thinkin? (Instrumental)" by Wataboi on Pixabay Intermission Music: "Uncut Gems" by Mezhdunami on Pixabay

In this final episode discussing Derek DelGaudio's In and Of Itself, Jonathan and Jeff talk about the difference between living to achieve something and living to be consistent, what it might mean to find deep satisfaction in life, and if living in the here-and-now and living an eternal kind of life are the same thing. They also talk about what shapes and makes us, and if stories and careful attention to the world, ourselves and what is true can transform and redeem our hurts and our failings. The conversation ranges over several related (and some unrelated) issues, using DelGaudio's magic show as a springboard, including discussions on the internet, big-tech's attention-grabbing algorithms, whether we can build a better internet, whether we could have avoided the current one, and whether our future AI overlords will be friendly or not (and if either option is that great). Finally, they discuss how we relate to and know the world in such limited ways. Conversation on the wonder of all that is experienced and not yet fully known and also the possibility of only being aware of radically local comedians also crops up during this episode. Show Notes: Derek DelGaudio's In and Of Itself: https://store.cineplex.com/Product/derek-delgaudios-in-of-itself On Evil by Terry Eagleton: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300171259/evil "Invictus" (poem) by William Ernest Henley: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51642/invictus Movie: About Time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/About_Time_(2013_film) Just a Minute by Wess Stafford: https://www.moodypublishers.com/just-a-minute/ Blankets by Craig Thompson: https://drawnandquarterly.com/blankets Becoming Dallas Willard by Gary W. Moon: https://www.ivpress.com/becoming-dallas-willard The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-divine-conspiracy-dallas-willard Movie: A Hidden Life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hidden_Life_(2019_film) Movie: The Two Popes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Popes Middlemarch by George Eliot: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/145 Podcast Episode: Radiolab – The Heartbeat: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/segments/heartbeat Music: Theme Music: "What u Thinkin? (Instrumental)" by Wataboi on Pixabay Intermission Music: "Lazy Morning" by Tim Moor on Pixabay

In this episode, Jeff and Jonathan continue their conversation about Derek DelGaudio’s In & Of Itself to talk about the power of being recognized, the generosity of inclusion, and how a new context can open us up to significant experiences. This includes some pondering of WandaVision, how children fit in our society, the impact of westernized, eastern religious practices in the workplace, and who’s more embarrassed by touchy feely stuff.  The conversation then turns to the significance of the unwritten future, the choices we make, what kind of a world we want to live in and what kind of people we want to be. This includes discussions of crossing paths with wild animals in the city, raising urban chickens, if our relationship with animals is inherently ethical, Steve Jobs and other idea stealers, Aslan and Chance the Rapper, and the nature of leadership.  Show Notes: "I Might Need Security" by Chance the Rapper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAc41N2QRU (Warning: Mature Language) "The Animal That Therefore I Am" by Jacques Derrida: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Animal_That_Therefore_I_Am Music: Theme Music: "What u Thinkin? (Instrumental)" by Wataboi on Pixabay Intermission Music: "Lazy Morning" by Tim Moor on Pixabay

Jonathan and Jeff continue their conversation on the philosophical magic show, Derek DelGaudio's In & Of Itself -- and this time they spend more than five minutes talking about it! While this episode doesn't contain spoilers from the show, we would highly recommend watching it first if you are able! This time around, they spend a lot more time talking about the show itself. They talk about Jeff's disappointment with magic shows in general and what that feeling might signal. Does it signal a deep desire to know the "in and of itself" of reality? What does it mean to want a deeper reality than the reality that you are stuck with? They talk about the difference between tricks versus magic, the love of fantasy novels (any Dragonlance fans out there still?), Jonathan's brilliant Junior High ping pong career, C.S. Lewis's friend Charles Williams' interest in real magic, Rosicrucians, miracles and magic and the unexplainable givenness of reality, and the Four Horsemen of the New Atheist Apocalypse (but mostly just Daniel Dennett and only briefly). Topics that are raised in DelGaudio's show trigger conversations about what it means to be part of a place and how this creates identity, what it means to "be told who you are" by others now vs. historically, and more. Jeff also talks about American Idol in a way that suggests he doesn't realize it hasn't been a current reference for several years. Warning that there may be some small, brief spoilers about The Prestige, which is a movie that came out 15 years ago, so hopefully you've already seen it. Show Notes: Derek DelGaudio's In and Of Itself: https://store.cineplex.com/Product/derek-delgaudios-in-of-itself "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" from Walt Disney's Fantasia "Waiting for a Miracle" by Yes Nice (about the artist Bas Jan Ader)  Consciousness Explained by Daniel Dennett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained The American Barbecue Showdown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_American_Barbecue_Showdown The Hurt Locker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hurt_Locker The Inoperative Community by Jean-Luc Nancy: https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/the-inoperative-community Music: Theme Music: "What u Thinkin? (Instrumental)" by Wataboi on Pixabay Intermission Music: "Lazy Morning" by Tim Moor on Pixabay