Ep. 35: Please Play This Song On The Radio (w/ Michael Bathgate and Taylor Hewlett)

Even though they're not really into punk rock, Michael and Taylor from Imperial Oil are pretty badass (and the title of this episode is a NOFX song that Michael somehow remembered, so we'll take it). And they're movie stars in a video from Energy Safety Canada about the 4Ds from Learning Teams, Inc.The Imperial boys are the first to tell you they aren't safety people - they're field ops guys just trying to solve some problems. Pretty fucking punk, right? Shit wasn't going the way it should, so they just figured out what would work. Not perfection, but progress. "If you just go in and do it, and you do it from a place of caring," people are going to be on board.What the hell are the 4Ds Michael and Taylor are talking about (5 if you count Provan, because he's a D for sure)? They're questions about what folks see at work that are dumb, difficult, different, or dangerous.Turns out talking to people about work does some other stuff too: like a 53% reduction in absenteeism and massive increases in time-on-tool productivity. Weird, right? Figuring out how work gets done and addressing it like an adult helps make work suck less.For a lot of people, punk rock is a catalyst for being heard, for building family, and for expressing how they feel. For the teams at Imperial, using something like the 4Ds was a catalyst, too. Sometimes, it identified some problems that looked a whole lot like the supervisors and leaders in the organization. Those are tough conversations (like how bass players and ska bands are the problem a lot of times, too), but the boys took the conversations on and did the hard yards to figure out how to make leadership better.Asking questions isn't the solution, though, and that's why you should check out the rest of the episode. Michael and Taylor have got a lot more to share about how they started learning about performance, labels, and leadership. They're pretty punk without even trying, and that's "The punkest mother fucker I ever did see. Ah hell, he's even more punk than me." Got a NOFX quote in there after all, punks. Shoulda gone for Propaghandi, since they're a Canadian band, but whatever. The Energy Safety Canada video on the 4DsThe Learning Teams, Inc. folks, home of the 4Ds, are here  DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/Let us know what you think at [email protected] or on our LinkedIn page.Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

"Sometimes work just fucking sucks"That's what David Strano said back on the Decline episode, and if you're not careful, saying smart things gets you volun-told for a guest appearance on the pod. David's a former touring roadie turned HSE director. That basically means he knows a lot about both parts of the PRS podcast, so the boys are considering just handing over the reins. Shit, he even knows what episode number we're on.It's a rare episode when there's not a NOFX song title involved, but this one goes way back in time with The Clash's "Career Opportunities" as a reference to shit jobs, success, and just getting things done in the face of a lot of competing goals.Since David has a real job (even closer to the actual work than Ron), we had a cool opportunity to talk about workplace safety as it's seen and lived with by folks doing work, especially those at the front line.David did 20 years of touring before Covid, and that's pretty rad. Except for the safety part. Nobody actually does that, apparently. It's the wild west, as David says, and shit happens as you might expect.There's a big difference between compliance and looking for high-performance safety, but the reality is that compliance is still important, even if it isn't the complete answer. The boys talk a little bit about the difference between awareness and something mattering, too. And tolerability - like the idea that if you choose to work here in a high-risk industry, you've basically said you accept some level of risk.Later in the discussion, all of those ideas tie together in a conversation about where expectations from customers fit in. Priorities - like getting a facility opened on time - mean safety drifts back to the old school view of production vs. protection, even when we're focused on more contemporary ideas. FSMM isn't meant to be the real deal, but there are times when it sure looks and feels like it is.Anyway, it's an episode focused on how tradeoffs materialize at work, how having multiple folks with checkbooks shapes safety, and where compliance fits into discussions about front-line work grappling with safety as an academic abstraction.Have fun, punkers!   DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/Let us know what you think at [email protected] or on our LinkedIn page.Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

This week, the boys are talking about theory and practice, because, as the listener who submitted the question says, "fuck you, that's why."It's true, there's a lot of safety literature out there that's gotten more head-up-its-own-ass. Moralizing about safety is cool until it isn't, and the question is a good one (it was something like wanting to hear more about decision-making and doing things instead of recycling ideas as a career by itself).It can feel like things get way too academic and maybe even elite. That said, the boys argue that people don't need things "dumbed down" for them, either.The whole point of this little podcast is to be able to question things about safety. It seems like an awful lot of discussion, sometimes a little rowdy, is about whether something is "just theory" or if it's actually useful.Being useful is important, but asking who something is useful for is just as important. And being useful isn't something that just happens. It's based on theory, too.  So there's the thing. Dave brings up playing bass with only 2 or 3 strings, which means that even though the guitar company thinks they're important, Dave doesn't. The boys talk about making sure front-line folks have tools that work - but people work in other places, too. That gets back to the "Who is it useful for?" questions.Solid quote from Dave on this one, by the way: "Theory isn't just pontification, like people sitting around on whiteboards just making shit up, proposing stuff."Theory is observing patterns that actually happen in the world, and then trying to come up with models about why those patterns play out, and in what situations it matters. Otherwise, how do we build tools and predict those patterns in a way that's connected directly to work.So principles aren't theory. They're underlying values and guides for understanding.Does theory matter? Do principles matter? Yup.But as important as they are, theories and principles aren't solutions by themselves.Maybe that's the disconnect: treating principles as solutions. If you're into the whole work-as-imagined thing, that's pretty close to describing theory. There's some disagreement between the boys about starting with the theory vs. starting with observations in the organization. Here's where you probably ought to listen in to see how the conversation pans out.Arguing about what punk rock is can sometimes just get in the way of the music. The whole answer is never in the book. It's probably not only at the point of work either. Like the description of this stupid podcast says, do shit that works.  DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/Let us know what you think at [email protected] or on our LinkedIn page.Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

"I think the context was kind of like, how do you go about trying to maybe introduce or convince your organization on some of the more contemporary ideas, when your organization is deeply rooted in zero harm and... Well, I think that's mostly it. Or something like that."  It's our first *official* episode dedicated to a listener question, and Dave totally nailed the summary with the leadoff quote.So what happens when people in authority are focused on zero? Well, for one, you name the episode after the band Authority Zero.It's not super constructive to come out and say that zero harm is stupid. Feel free to give it a go, but the boys wrestled with where it's okay to agree on the big ideas - like don't kill people at work - and have an adult conversation about differences in how we get there.To our listener's question, though, the boys had a pretty solid discussion on introducing some punk rock in a Backstreet Boy safety world. Making the cost of trying something new low is important. We don't need to burn all the boss's shitty records just to have them listen to something new.Focusing on deep discussions of principles is pretty lazy stuff, and then you get folks worried that we're saying harm is okay. It isn't, but maybe we should be focusing on asking leaders how, if it's zero harm or it's not zero harm, what does that mean for what's actually going to change in my organization? Are there unintended consequences of having aspirations of zero? And if there are (and there are), then what should we do differently to sort that out?  Getting to a discussion that's somewhere between shifting an entire worldview and being too far down in the weeds is a tricky balance, but we're trying to get to a middle ground. At least a little bit.The consensus seems to revolve around the idea that we don't have to lure leaders into the van with candy. It might just be that they haven't heard different ideas, and building from what they know to what they need is probably just fine. Maybe it isn't very punk rock, but not thrashing into a leader's office like we're in the mosh pit of contemporary safety is a better move.  DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/Let us know what you think at [email protected] or on our LinkedIn page.Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

It was sort of like a NOFX show. People had the wrong time, Ron rolled in when he felt like it, a lot of friends were there, and a few hooligans showed up to make sure we actually did something.Seriously, though, thanks to the gang for ideas and discussion. It wasn't quite as messy as inviting Fletcher on stage, but we've got time to work up to it.With the faithful there (and Ron later on), the discussion started out by asking: "Is any of this actually new?" There is a sense sometimes that there's just a bunch of rebranding going on. Maybe that's something the people with real jobs see a little bit more of.Speaking of real jobs, David Strano wins the quote of the day with "Work fucking sucks sometimes." Amen.All of this talk about safety can get lost without acknowledging that not everybody thinks about safety like we do. They probably shouldn't, because it would be weird. That means what we do in the name of safety has to actually change the work for the better. It probably also means that if you're doing safety, you should also spend some time actually doing work if you can. Not just a simple shadow for a day. Actual real work, at as many levels and departments as you can.The boys - really the guests on stage - talked a bit about middle managers, too, and how they can maintain a connection to work while trying to support innovative ideas. Safety can seem like the opposite of innovation sometimes, right? Innovation is risky, so there was some talk about how we set people up for successfully testing new ideas, especially ones that affect the safety of work.Anyway, give it a listen. It's a nice break from Ron, Dave, and Ben all the time.  DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/Let us know what you think at [email protected] or on our LinkedIn page.Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

First off, every new episode is sort of a surprise, but making it to Episode 30 is about 29 more than the boys expected. And of course the title is from a NOFX album.In celebration of Ron's (new) real job at a bit of a startup, we thought that talking about how you'd build your safety empire from scratch might look. The boys' discussion centers on starting with executive leaders to create a vision for what really good safety would look, sound, and feel like.  There's - shockingly - a fair bit of BS in the middle, but the boys eventually get around to a few of the benefits of building things up in a small organization: there's room to do some experimentation, a chance to manage messaging about safety with a small crew, and the opportunity to come up with a solid 30/60/90-day plan (or 100-day if you use the Australian conversion rate).The consensus, if you can call it that, is that agreeing on principles around safety may not be enough. You need some specifics, and in a small group, that might come from consistently having in-person time between leaders and safety people. It might be asking folks what certain approaches to operations might look like to meet acceptable levels of safety risk and then giving people choices. There's more than one way to write a song, too, so it's not the end of the world.Anyway, when you get the chance to start from scratch as a band, there aren't a lot of people at the shows. It's a good time to figure out your tone and get to know your audience. Same in an organization.   DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/Let us know what you think at [email protected] or on our LinkedIn page.Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

Two-thirds of the dickheads on this podcast are consultants, so an episode about consulting seemed like a good idea.Also, there's a lot of chatter at conferences, online, and probably in bars that play ska music about how safety has just become commoditized and monetized. Usually, it's a consultant trying to sell something who's saying that.Ben, Ron, and Dave head into the dimly lit back alleys where consultants apparently live to look at the good, the bad, and the sometimes fucked up realities of bringing external help into organizations. The reality for many organizations is that more help isn't coming. The safety team isn't hiring, and folks are constantly being asked to do more with less.The boys think that's where good outside help is huge. Like the Wolf in Pulp Fiction. Sort of.The role of consultants as "force multipliers" isn't made up, but they should be there to sit in with the band when Ron doesn't show up, not hang out forever like Yoko. And if some chucklefuck has an answer before they even get to know your organization, you should probably show them the door.The crew examines why some consultants do better than others and how organizations can best use outside expertise (like a solid opener or a supergroup like MFATGG). Now that he has a real job, Ron adds a few points from the perspective of someone actually hiring consultants to help out. The short version is that if you're picky about who you let on stage, a consultant can be a lot of help. Watch out for the assholes that show up already knowing all the answers (or with nine dudes carrying horns - that's a ska band), though.  Bonus: Includes discussions about snowboarding, basketball, and potential international deportation policies.  DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/Let us know what you think at [email protected] or on our LinkedIn page.Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

It's almost a theme at this point, but if you guessed the episode title is also a NOFX song, you're the winner. It's a pretty deep cut from the Backstage Pass album, but it gets right to the point of this episode - that culture shapes meaning. And safety can mean a lot of different things when we aren't careful to understand it in the context of culture. We could have gone with the Pennywise song "Society," but we didn't. It's cool if you like that one better.In this episode of the PRS podcast, the boys discuss the challenges of implementing global safety standards while being culturally sensitive. They highlight the importance of understanding local practices and adapting safety protocols accordingly. Ron shares some experience with a learning team in Malaysia and the cultural barriers that can make effective communication super difficult.  If you only get one takeaway from this one - and that's a stretch sometimes - it's the need to standardize outcomes, not processes or even policies, as a way to aim for global consistency with locally relevant practices. Safety is very much affected by imposing Western safety norms on diverse cultures, and without a solid interpretation of local and societal norms, that can be dangerous.Ok, get to it then.   DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/Let us know what you think at [email protected] or on our LinkedIn page.Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

Hey, you guessed it - a title from a NOFX song.This time, the boys are talking about power. It's a pretty punk rock topic, because there's a lot of music about subverting power.The conversation starts with the same BS as usual - you're welcome. Eventually, it moves to the good stuff of complexities of power and politics in safety and the importance of decentralized decision-making and deference to expertise. The boys discuss the impact of power imbalances on team dynamics, communication, and safety, and links to studies and real-world examples.  Really, there's a lot of evidence that supports how important it is for safety professionals to address these issues and promote open, honest communication. There's more to it than that, but you'll have to listen in!  DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/Let us know what you think at [email protected] or on our LinkedIn page.Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

Like the Sex Pistols song, but with more cowboys and stuff.There's been some talk of abolishing the health and safety regulator - OSHA - in the US. It's pretty punk to think of full-scale safety anarchy, but is that what would really happen?Maybe leaving safety performance up to companies wouldn't be so bad. After all, things were going great before regulation, right? It was a magical place where FSMM reigned supreme. At least sometimes.The boys haven't been good about predicting the future so far, so this episode probably isn't much different, but there are some solid points raised about what actually encourages safety in industry. Anyway, Reagan Youth probably has something to say about what sure sounds like "trickle down safety."Listen in and let us know what you think. LinkedIn is where all the most punk rock conversations are happening.  DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/Let us know what you think at [email protected] or on our LinkedIn page.Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com