PPP 522 | Are You Removing the Wrong Friction?, with Maggie Sass and Ross Blankenship

Summary In this episode, Andy sits down with Dr. Maggie Sass and Dr. Ross Blankenship, consulting psychologists and authors of Friction: How Tension, Emotion and Change Reveal Better Leaders. Project managers are trained to remove blockers, and much of the time that's exactly right. But Maggie and Ross draw a distinction that's easy to miss: some friction is simply waste, and some friction is information. You'll hear how the unwritten rules we learned about emotion early in life still shape how we lead, what starts happening in a room before an irritated leader says a word, and the four words Ross thinks can rescue a team meeting. We also dig into why burnout is often a system design problem instead of a self-care problem, what a project leader can actually do about structural friction when they can't redesign the whole system, and which human capabilities are worth protecting as AI makes more of our work faster and easier. If you're looking for a more practical way to read the tension on your team and use what it's telling you, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "But I think the unwritten rule at home was that talking about emotions and living through them safely were two distinct things." "Humans need things, and sometimes they don't even know what they need until you are together in a space or in a call." "You don't ask questions. You don't bring up creative ideas because you have no idea how that's really gonna go given what you're watching a leader do." "But I think the older I've gotten, the more convinced I am that our job as adults inside organizations is not necessarily to be perfect, but it's to repair as fast as possible when you make a mistake, and that's the thing that doesn't happen when people are scared." "I've found that these four words can save your team (and marriage): 'I'm experiencing some friction'." "It helps me remember that between the stimulus and the response, I have space, and the more that I give myself, the better." "There is no real way to separate task and relationship because the humans are doing the tasks." "Being the hero may allow you to solve massive problems or create really compelling products in the short term, but it's not a sustainable way to run a business because businesses are run by people and people have limits." "It's a good example where AI makes you more productive, like, you got 'em done faster, and almost entirely strips the meaning out of it." "And we need to take seriously that our kids need to learn to fail so that they develop resilience." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:14 Start of Interview 02:23 The Unwritten Rules Maggie Learned About Emotion 04:06 Growing Up in Ross's House 05:41 Why Ross Was Skeptical of EQ 08:22 What Ross's Pushback Changed for Maggie 11:01 Do You Have EQ, or Do You Do EQ? 13:06 Can We Get Too Good at Smoothing the Path? 16:56 Where Ross Deliberately Leaves Friction in Place 18:46 What AI Missed When They Tried Using It on the Book 20:35 Leadership as Emotional Intelligence in Action 20:50 What Happens When an Irritated Leader Walks In 24:39 Four Words That Can Change the Room 27:00 When Your Body Writes the Story First 29:28 Maggie's Physical Cue and How She Creates Space 32:55 Burnout as a System Design Problem 35:28 Patterns, Hero Ball, and Structural Friction 37:00 A First Move When You Can't Redesign the System 38:39 Which Human Capabilities Should We Protect From AI? 42:11 What Maggie Refuses to Outsource 43:27 Parenting: When to Remove Friction, When to Allow It 46:22 The Tin Can Phone and a Kid Who Made Her Own Plans 48:44 End of Interview 49:18 Andy Comments After the Interview 53:13 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Maggie, Ross, and their book at TalentSmartEQ.com/friction. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 397 with Dr. Julia DiGangi. It's a discussion about emotions that has stuck with Andy for years, and it's a great supplement to today's conversation. Episode 394 with Joshua Freedman. Joshua is a leading voice on emotional intelligence, making this a really good follow-up to Friction. Episode 446 with Adam Galinsky. Helpful insights on how to inspire those around us instead of sucking the life out of them. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa, the podcast's AI persona, to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills Topics: Leadership, Project Management, Emotional Intelligence, Friction, Conflict, Psychological Safety, Burnout, Team Culture, Artificial Intelligence, Parenting, Self-Awareness, Communication The following music was used for this episode: Music: Ignotus by Agnese Valmaggia License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Synthiemania by Frank Schroter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary In this episode, Andy sits down with Dr. Jeremy Pollack, a social-organizational psychologist and founder of Pollack Peacebuilding Systems, author of Wired for Peace: Using 7 Neuroscience-Based Principles to Resolve Conflicts. Jeremy looks at conflict through the lens of the brain and nervous system, which helps explain why disagreements escalate so quickly and why the fixes we reach for often make things worse. Andy and Jeremy talk about why de-escalation has to come before problem-solving, since solutions and stress do not mix. Jeremy walks us through his Sapien Model of six basic psychological needs, giving us a far more useful lens than labeling a stakeholder difficult, defensive, or resistant. You will hear how memory and prediction shape the way we read the person in front of us, what a team learns when its leader consistently avoids conflict, and why changing our experience of conflict requires new experiences, not just new beliefs. Jeremy also shares how this shows up at home, in marriage and parenting. If you're looking for a practical, evidence-based way to handle the conflicts that come with leading, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "The most fruitful relationships from what I've seen at work, at home, et cetera, are those that can weather storms without the real fear of abandonment." "That was pretty interesting to me to see how much of the science is telling us that, like, our brain is mostly a predictive machine." "Anytime we're in an escalated or emotionally charged state, there's something going on in our brains, usually subconsciously, that's tracking a threat or an impediment to our basic needs." "It's de-escalate first because solutions and stress just don't mix." "What I'm feeling right now is not a result of what the person's saying. It's a result of the way my body is responding." "I call it an experiential thumbprint. It's completely unique to you and no one else has your nervous system, and you don't have anyone else's." "If we have a negative experience with someone and we go into a place of fear or pain or anger or something like that, the way that we see them going forward can change very, very quickly, and it's a lot harder to get us to unsee that." "We access memories in edit mode. And so after we retrieve it, and when we write it back, it's not always quite the same thing, and that's always made me question not is that memory correct as much as is it completely correct." "All conflict is an opportunity for learning." "The threat of abandonment is the big thing to really watch for when we're having arguments." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:27 Start of Interview 02:35 The Family Cultures That Shaped How Jeremy Sees Conflict 05:51 In Awe of How Much We Still Do Not Know About the Brain 07:49 The Brain as a Prediction Machine 09:55 The Salad Lady and What Sits Underneath Defensive Behavior 12:45 An Introduction to the Sapien Model 16:19 Why a Framework Beats a Label 16:58 De-escalate First: Catching Yourself Before It Is Too Late 20:54 When Our De-escalation Attempts Backfire 22:43 Empathy Without Having to Agree 25:03 How Memory Distorts the Person in Front of Us 27:46 We Do Not Access Memory as Read-Only 30:45 Joe, the Conflict-Avoidant CEO, and What a Team Learns 33:03 Taking Inventory When Nobody Pushes Back 34:53 New Experiences of Conflict, Not Just New Beliefs 38:08 Tell Me More: Creating a Gap Between Stimulus and Response 40:31 Peace Starts in Small Ways 42:49 Interrupting the Pavlovian Pattern 44:19 Bringing It Home: Marriage, Parenting, and Attachment 47:17 End of Interview 47:57 Andy Comments After the Interview 51:57 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Jeremy and his work at CoachJeremyPollack.com. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 371 with Amanda Ripley. Amanda is an amazing writer, and her book High Conflict is a great follow-up to today's discussion. Episode 148 with Dan Shapiro. The title of his book Negotiating the Nonnegotiable sounds like it's about negotiating, but it's really about navigating the conflicts that suck the life out of us. Episode 61 with Mike Roberto. That discussion was over 15 years ago, and there are ideas from it that Andy still uses to this day. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa, the podcast's AI persona, to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills Topics: Leadership, Project Management, Conflict Resolution, Neuroscience, De-escalation, Psychological Safety, Emotional Regulation, Memory, Stakeholder Management, Team Culture, Accountability, Parenting The following music was used for this episode: Music: On Point by Steven O'Brien License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Energetic Drive Indie Rock by WinnieTheMoog License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary In this episode, Andy sits down with Johan Roos, professor and executive advisor at Hult International Business School, Executive Director of the Peter Drucker Society Europe, and co-inventor of the LEGO® Serious Play® method. Johan is the author of Human Magic: Leading with Wisdom in an Age of Algorithms, and he has spent decades studying how people think, create, decide, and lead together. Andy and Johan explore the two paths Johan calls erosion and amplification, starting with a question Andy has been wrestling with as he hands more of his manual driving over to Tesla's self-driving. You'll hear what an eroding project manager actually looks like day-to-day, why practical wisdom matters when the analytically optimal answer is not the wisest one, and how AI feeds one kind of curiosity, the laser, while starving another, the radar. Johan also explains the difference between becoming an AI concierge and practicing what he calls professional citizenship, and he shares what parents can do to help their kids hold onto the messy, hands-on curiosity that machines cannot supply. If you're looking for a thoughtful, hopeful way to use AI without surrendering your judgment, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "Almost every good idea I've had was not in front of the screen." "I know what to do, but I've stopped understanding why.".... The eroding project management can no longer explain the why." "So in a sense, they argue that the better the system, the stronger pull down the erosion curve." "So the message is really when the machines are taking over more and more of some of these subtle, very valuable capabilities we have, we have to climb the value creation ladder." "So a complexity is exactly where our wisdom gets exposed." "So every metric said fantastic, but nobody asked why, and is this right?" "If AI can write a document that is important to you, the document was never where the value lived." "But we just have to be careful to not sort of delegate too much of our brain power and sort of erode our jelly bean." "When you lean back and you haven't struggled enough, you may be super smart and, and the best brilliant individual in the world, but, you know, friction is good." "Are you able to argue for your case without holding on to the AI-produced slide?" "Protect the wandering curiosity, unstructured exploration, questions with no immediate payoff, the freedom to follow something nowhere in particular." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:35 Start of Interview 02:44 Growing Up Inquisitive and the Power of "Because" 06:04 Self-Driving Cars, GPS, and the Erosion of Our Abilities 10:31 Becoming an Active Supervisor Instead of a Passive Passenger 13:55 What an Eroding Project Manager Looks Like Day to Day 18:52 When the Optimal Answer Is Not the Wisest One 22:03 Intuition, Gut Feel, and When Something Does Not Smell Right 25:54 The Laser and the Radar: Two Kinds of Curiosity 27:52 Creating Independently Before Consulting AI 30:44 What Happens in the AI-Free Time 35:18 Is It Intuition or Is It Ego? 37:48 Turning the Models Loose on His Own Book 40:00 Asking AI to Be Brutally Honest 41:02 AI Concierge Versus Professional Citizenship 45:51 Advice for Parents Raising Kids in the Age of AI 49:26 Staying Human: Theater, Walks, and Getting Your Hands Dirty 50:44 End of Interview 51:15 Andy Comments After the Interview 54:46 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Johan and his work at humanmagic.one. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 500 with Steve Brown. Steve is a former Google DeepMind futurist, and he has a unique perspective on where we've been and where we're going with AI. Episode 479 with Matt Mong. Matt shares his take on the AI skills we need to stay relevant in the years to come. Episode 463 with Faisal Hoque. Faisal helps us go beyond the fear and the hype around AI to a helpful way to think about the human-AI relationship. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa, the podcast's AI persona, to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Business Acumen Topics: Leadership, Project Management, Artificial Intelligence, Practical Wisdom, Curiosity, Critical Thinking, Creativity, Decision Making, Judgment, Professional Development, Human Skills, Parenting The following music was used for this episode: Music: Echo by Alexander Nakarada License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Chillhouse by Frank Schroeter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary In this episode, Andy sits down with Owen Fitzpatrick, a psychologist, speaker, and author of Inner Propaganda: Leading Hearts and Minds through Turbulent Times. Owen has spent close to 30 years studying how beliefs form and change, interviewing people everywhere from North Korea to Rwanda to Afghanistan. His thesis is unsettling: our brains do not simply take in facts and reach objective conclusions. They build a story we then experience as reality. Owen and Andy work through what that means on real projects. You'll hear how a warning from a colleague can quietly harden into a conviction about a teammate, and how Bayesian reasoning gives you a way out. You'll learn Owen's five types of truth, how to tell courageous conviction from dangerous denial, and what leaders can actually make stable when they cannot promise a stable outcome. Owen also explains why pushing harder for buy-in is often the very reason people resist, and how an antifragile identity helps teams face uncertainty like AI without denial or panic. If you're looking for a fresh way to think about belief, influence, and leading through turbulent times, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "We all live in that world where we think we're the one person that isn't the victim of propaganda, and my point or my thesis is we're all victims of our own inner propaganda." "We're not necessarily just convinced by others. We convince ourselves." "Because I think when we say, 'I'm no good at something,' we lock ourselves into it." "Well, if you're not great at communicating with people, get great." "Most of the time our beliefs just create a sort of a reality for us, and that reality can help us or harm us." "So our brains are prediction machines." "Whenever we talk about belief, believing in your ability to succeed in the future is critical if you want to succeed in the future, but that doesn't mean you deny the present." "It, it's not that we think negatively, it's we believe negatively, and we see the world through those lenses." "So I think we want to be able to challenge our beliefs and build a bit more and get more comfortable with uncertainty away from the table, but when we're at the table with our team, that's when we bring the certainty." "We like the idea that we are making this decision of our own free will." "And when you look at what a belief is, a belief is an idea we feel certain about, and that word feel is the most important word of that sentence." "It's okay to believe less in certain things. It's okay to believe more in certain things. It's okay to believe better." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:29 Start of Interview 02:40 The Belief About Himself Owen Took Too Long to Update 05:56 A Sweaty Debate Speech and What Came After 08:28 Not Good at Something Is a Skill Gap, Not an Identity 09:45 The Belief Growth Mindset 12:55 The Sandra Story: When a Warning Becomes a Conviction 14:07 Why the Brain Craves Cognitive Closure 17:15 Using Bayesian Reasoning to Loosen a Belief 21:00 Melanie Perkins and Alan Mulally: Conviction or Denial? 21:36 The Five Types of Truth 26:24 Just Because It Is Your Truth Does Not Make It True 28:41 Where Objective Truth Actually Belongs 31:47 What "Leadership Is Propaganda" Does Not Mean 34:45 Why Change Management and AI Adoption Stall 36:30 Why Owen Chose Propaganda Over Self-Talk 37:57 Do I Believe It Because It Makes Me Look Good? 38:49 Answering the AI Question Without Denial or Hype 40:15 Building an Antifragile Identity 44:27 Certainty Is Contagious, and When to Change Course 45:20 What Leaders Can Make Stable in a Volatile Period 47:45 Control What You Can, Influence What You Can, Accept the Rest 51:01 When Pushing for Buy-In Creates the Resistance 52:45 You're Asking the Wrong Question About Persuasion 54:30 Reading the Person Before You Make the Ask 57:30 Helping Kids Hold Strong Beliefs Without Contempt 1:01:46 End of Interview 1:02:15 Andy Comments After the Interview 1:05:09 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Owen and his work at InnerPropaganda.com. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 370 with Chantel Prat. One of the smartest, clearest, and funniest books on the brain, and why all of it matters for how you lead. Episodes 59 and 60 with Cathy Davidson. She explains how the brain science of attention changes everything. Episode 32 with Brad Kolar. A look at the direct implications of neuroscience for leadership. Owen's TED Talk, available here on YouTube. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa, the podcast's AI persona, to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills Topics: Leadership, Belief, Persuasion, Influence, Uncertainty, Change Management, Growth Mindset, Psychological Reactance, Buy-In, Artificial Intelligence, Resilience, Project Management The following music was used for this episode: Music: The Fantastical Ferret by Tim Kulig License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Funny by Frank Schroeter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary In this episode, Andy welcomes Cheryl Strauss Einhorn, founder and CEO of the decision sciences company Decisive and author of The Human Edge: Smarter Decisions in the Age of AI. Cheryl has spent decades helping people make better decisions, and her message here is a simple one: AI can gather, summarize, and compare, but it can't know what matters most unless we do the thinking first. Andy and Cheryl talk about why "AI first" can quietly turn into AI only, and why a poor answer from AI is actually useful feedback about your own thinking. Cheryl explains why separating the what of a decision from the why can change the path forward, shares her vision of success question, and walks through how human bias and AI bias reinforce each other. You'll also hear a practical way to use AI personas to pressure test your thinking before a big stakeholder conversation, plus what parents can do to help kids strengthen their decision-making muscles instead of letting them atrophy. If you're looking for practical ways to make smarter decisions in the age of AI, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "AI is about patterns, but we're about purpose." "We need to be the chief deciders in our own life." "We need to make sure that we actually have a way to push back and check the veracity of what it's giving us because it's a known liar." "And so the authenticity of human interaction is what actually builds trust, strengthens relationships, and really gives us a lot of the connections that are important to us in our home life and our work life." "You don't need to have a perfect prompt for AI." "AI is going to give you other people's answers." "'Knowledge is power' isn't as true now. It's what you are able to do with the knowledge, and it's why you want to collect the knowledge in the first place." "I almost never would accept AI's first answer." "We tend to have evolving hypotheses unless we really build an audit trail of our thinking." "So in the world of medicine, a fever tells you something is wrong, but it tells you nothing about what is wrong or where to look." "So first we know AI's a sycophant, right?" "If it's 99% accurate in its conclusion, but its underlying data is the wrong data set, you've got the wrong answer." "I would say the more that I've studied these cognitive biases, these mental shortcuts, the more I realize that we see the world through a dirty windshield." "Our brains are muscles, and just like we exercise to strengthen our muscles, if we don't exercise, they atrophy." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:00 Start of Interview 02:12 Growing Up Surrounded by Questions 04:30 What Leaders Should Watch Out for in "AI First" 07:07 When AI Confidently Makes Things Up 09:04 How AI First Turns into AI Only 09:20 Why Polished Doesn't Mean Authentic 11:59 A Prompting Problem or a Problem Definition Problem? 14:37 The Vision of Success Question 15:45 Why a Bad Answer Is Useful Feedback 19:06 Separating the What from the Why 20:32 Research: More Information Isn't Better Judgment 24:35 Progressive Prompting and Never Accepting the First Answer 25:18 Fabricated Quotes and the Trouble with Attribution 26:50 Documenting Assumptions and Building an Audit Trail 29:25 Committing to Your Own Thinking 32:29 How Human Bias and AI Bias Reinforce Each Other 34:55 Knowing About Biases Doesn't Make You Immune 36:51 Using AI Personas to Challenge Your Thinking 40:20 AI and Stakeholder Management 42:42 Helping Kids Become Better Decision-Makers 44:25 End of Interview 44:51 Andy Comments After the Interview 48:13 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Cheryl and her work at AREAMethod.com. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 460 with Joe Sutherland. It's an interesting look at the intersection of AI, data, and decision-making, and a great follow-up to this discussion. Episode 381 with Jim Loehr. One of Andy's favorite conversations about decision-making, from a remarkable figure in the human performance world. Episode 99 with Mike Roberto. A conversation about his book Why Great Leaders Don't Take Yes for an Answer, recorded long before ChatGPT showed up, and still insightful today. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa, the podcast's AI persona, to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Pass the PMP Exam If you or someone you know is thinking about getting PMP certified, we've put together a helpful guide called The 5 Best Resources to Help You Pass the PMP Exam on Your First Try. We've helped thousands of people earn their certification, and we'd love to help you too. It's totally free, and it's a great way to get a head start. Just go to 5BestResources.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com to grab your copy. I'd love to help you get your PMP this year! Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills Topics: Decision Making, Artificial Intelligence, Leadership, Project Management, Critical Thinking, Cognitive Bias, Problem Solving, Stakeholder Management, Judgment, Curiosity The following music was used for this episode: Music: Echo by Alexander Nakarada License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Tuesday by Sascha Ende License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary In this episode, Andy sits down with Gustavo Razzetti, culture consultant and author of Forward Talk. Gustavo makes a case that surprises a lot of leaders: fear is only part of why people stay quiet at work. The bigger driver is what he calls the pointlessness paradox, the belief that speaking up will not change anything. Andy and Gustavo talk about conversational debt and how it compounds over time, why silence is so often mistaken for alignment, and the subtle signs that a team is drifting into avoidance, blame, or groupthink. Gustavo unpacks the difference between backward talk and forward talk, offering practical ways to turn an objection into a question that opens possibilities. You'll also hear about conversational agency, why the second person who speaks up matters more than the first, and how the CPR approach of courage, perspective, and responsibility plays out under pressure. Along the way, Andy shares stories from Alfred Sloan at GM and Alan Mulally at Ford, and Gustavo shares a memorable one about his son and a crashed car. If you're looking for a more confident way to raise the issues your team keeps avoiding, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "However, fear only explains part of why people don't speak up. At some point, people feel nothing will change." "I like to say that agreement happens in the room, alignment happens after the meeting." "When you become the team leader, the number of people giving you feedback reduces, and when you become a senior executive, no one gives you feedback.  Or if they do, it's not honest." "But what you want is people to challenge your perspective, to show you what you're missing, to see the things you're not seeing or maybe you stop seeing." "The problem is when we put being accepted, being respected over the outcome." "So forward talk is when can we frame that objection into a question." "So you're not being difficult. You're being realistic, but trying to find a solution, and you're giving the other person options." "Most people don't regret the difficult conversations they had. What we regret are the ones that we never had." "There's research that shows that the person who speaks up first is not the most important person. The second person who reciprocates is actually the one that creates the change. That moment when two people are talking about the same issue, it gives permission to the other people to jump in and also participate." "Staying silent also backfires, not only because it hurts the company, but if you're seeing the problem and you're staying silent, you become part of the problem." "It's not the absence of conflict that makes us a good team. It's that we can do it and we can work through it." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:05 Start of Interview 02:17 Growing Up in a Family of Nine in Argentina 05:18 Learning New Ways Beyond Your Family Culture 06:16 Why Fear Is Not the Whole Story 09:06 Why Waiting for Perfect Psychological Safety Backfires 10:37 Explaining the Pointlessness Paradox 11:37 Mistaking Silence for Alignment 13:35 Alfred Sloan and the Value of Disagreement 15:32 Subtle Signs You Are Drifting Into Groupthink 17:58 Backward Talk vs. Forward Talk 19:43 The Way to the Sun Is Through the Storm 21:05 How Organizations Quietly Reward Avoidance 23:08 When Speaking Up Gets You Labeled 25:09 Alan Mulaly, Ford, and the Power of the Second Voice 27:39 Alignment Debt, Belonging Debt, and Collaboration Debt 29:11 Why Conversational Debt Compounds 30:05 Surrendering Conversational Agency 32:40 Complaining, and the CPR Approach 36:31 You Get What You Tolerate 37:42 Applying These Ideas at Home 40:06 Conflict Is Fuel When You Channel It 41:07 End of Interview 41:37 Andy Comments After the Interview 45:10 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Gustavo and his work at GustavoRazzetti.com. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 284 with Peter Boghossian. He wrote a book about how to have impossible conversations, and it's full of ideas Andy still uses almost every week. Episode 148 with Daniel Shapiro. Dan is the author of Negotiating the Nonnegotiable, an insightful guide to dealing with difficult conversations and influence situations. Episode 371 with Amanda Ripley. Her book High Conflict offers practical guidance on navigating even the most challenging of conflicts in an empowering way. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa, the podcast's AI persona, to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills Topics: Difficult Conversations, Conversational Debt, Psychological Safety, Groupthink, Team Culture, Leadership, Project Management, Conflict, Alignment, Accountability, Communication, Speaking Up The following music was used for this episode: Music: Summer Morning Full Version by MusicLFiles License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Tropical Vibe by WinnieTheMoog License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary In this episode, Andy welcomes back his friend Stuart Taylor, a PMO leader and PMI PMO Awards judge, author of Becoming the Project Manager. Most of us didn't grow up dreaming of leading projects. We drifted into the role, and then discovered it's far less about plans and methodologies than it is about people, pressure, and learning to lead while you yourself still feel unsure. Stuart shares the story behind the book, including the university project where he publicly chastised a teammate and the response from his dad that changed how he understood leadership. He and Andy dig into the real value and limits of PM certifications, why AI can help you communicate but can't replace the human part, the stakeholder questions younger Stuart was afraid to ask, what his mentor Wayne taught him about proximity and follow-through, and why a new sponsor has to be sold on your project rather than assumed into it. You'll also hear the 30-minute CV rule and the trouble it once caused him. If you're looking for an honest, human look at what it actually takes to become the project manager, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "Well, now that you've reprimanded that person, you do realize you've got to go and pick them back up again?" "So going out into the world with this as my toolkit, and I thought it was a toolkit, but actually it turned out to be more like a life raft because I ended up clinging onto it without reasoning at an early point in my career." "There's an awful lot that falls between the processes, and that's what the early part of the book is really exploring." "I don't believe there's great value in repeatedly recycling the same learning over and over and over again. I think there's much greater value in taking that energy and going to learn something about your industry, the, actual industry that you're working in." "And also, I should add, you will have greater value to them by being there too, because you're the interesting change person in the room then, rather than one of another 200 change people walking around all talking about the same methodologies." "So be the person who is not avoiding hearing about challenges, but actively seeking them out, and cataloging them, and managing them." "Something else I've learned: they don't like you tiptoeing around them." "But if anybody's having to go into the office more frequently now, go and spend some of that time sitting with the people whose world you are changing." "But if your own leader, the person who's supposed to be championing you in the organization just doesn't get it, then you've got an impossible task on your hands." "When your sponsor goes or leaves and somebody else comes in and replaces them, don't just assume that, that because they've now been told they're gonna have to be the sponsor of your project, that they understand it and they can see the value in it." "Every project that you work on, the benefits, they are your accomplishments." "There is no point in being loyal to organizations. Be loyal to people." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 01:56 Start of Interview 02:15 Growing Up in Walsall and Learning Leadership from Dad 07:15 Drifting Into Project Management 09:06 When the Methodology Becomes a Life Raft 10:14 Why the Playbook That Worked Elsewhere Fails Here 11:49 Will AI Create PMs Who Look Prepared but Aren't? 13:37 Using AI to Understand a Difficult Stakeholder 15:31 The Value and Limits of PM Certifications 17:44 The Talent Triangle and Learning Your Industry 19:34 Stakeholders Are People, Not Org Charts 20:46 Curiosity and Asking Better Questions 21:54 Stop Tiptoeing: Busy Stakeholders Want the Point 22:55 What Wayne the Mentor Taught Stuart to Notice 25:47 Go Sit With Operations 28:19 The Power of Proximity 29:33 Sponsorship and Why PMOs Collapse 34:18 Earning Support and Managing Up 35:07 When a New Sponsor Takes Over 37:08 Keep Your CV 30 Minutes From Ready 39:39 When the 30-Minute Rule Got Stuart in Trouble 41:28 Project Lessons That Carried Into Family Life 43:23 End of Interview 43:58 Andy Comments After the Interview 47:08 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Stuart and his work at InfluentialPMO.com. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 474, which is an earlier and pretty candid conversation with Stuart about LinkedIn, careers, and AI. Episode 429 with Bill Dow. Bill and Andy talk about the signs that your PMO is going to fail, and you don't have to be in a Project Management Office to get value out of that discussion. Episode 441 with Michaela Flick. A discussion on the human side of project management that resonates with much of what you hear from Stuart. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa, ;the podcast's AI person, to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Business Acumen Topics: Project Management, Leadership, Stakeholder Management, Sponsorship, PMO, Mentoring, Career Development, Certifications, Artificial Intelligence, Communication, Influence, Professional Growth The following music was used for this episode: Music: Brooklyn Nights by Tim Kulig License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Fashion Corporate by Frank Schroeter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary In this episode, Andy sits down with Tom Rath, one of the most respected researchers on wellbeing and human potential, author of What's the Point? Turning Your Purpose Into a Superpower. Tom argues that we can be incredibly busy while slowly drifting away from what matters most, optimizing our schedules while our lives quietly leak away. Andy and Tom explore why "follow your passion" can be harmful advice, how status seeking becomes career quicksand, and why our smartphones may be one of the greatest threats to purposeful living. They also discuss how many of us inherit ambitions from our parents that we never consciously chose, and how an honest awareness of mortality can sharpen our clarity, intentionality, and sense of purpose. Rather than treating purpose as one grand calling, Tom reframes it as something we create in small moments throughout the day. If you're looking for a practical, and honestly a little uncomfortable, guide to leading and living with more purpose, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "Here's what I know with absolute certainty: you're wasting most of your day. Not because you're lazy, but because you've never asked the right question. You're so busy being busy that you've forgotten to ask why. You're optimizing your schedule while your life leaks away, hour by hour in meetings that don't matter and tasks that won't be remembered next week, let alone next year." "If you fail to do those things in a day and take that initiative and have those meaningful and purposeful conversations, and you put those off until tomorrow, tomorrow never really comes because we get into that responsive mode." "Passion by definition starts with you, and it's a little self-oriented, whereas I would argue purpose by definition has an other orientation to it, which is a much better idea for anchoring your energy in a day." "If you're not connecting back with the impact that it made on one person that day, it fails to kind of count in the way we motivate ourselves and think about our work on a daily basis." "I would argue that 90% of the purpose in life is built in those moments, not in some epiphany on a sunny day." "I would estimate that at least 80% of people, maybe 90%, make it all the way to the very end of their career in their life without ever seeing what they could have been best at in life." "Even as managers and leaders, if we don't take care of our own health and wellbeing first, we just have no shot at even being our best for other people that we manage." "There's always someone making twice as much as you or 10 times as much as you, and there's always somebody with more followers or more listeners or more readers or whatever it might be." "The eulogy virtues are about what am I doing today so I'll be a better dad, a better husband, a better friend, to help readers, to help people with the products I'm working on." "I would argue that 80% of people I see out in public today, out in the wild, are essentially working for their smartphone." "Their smartphone's running their life, and they're the ones salivating like one of Pavlov's dogs every time the darn thing blinks or buzzes or vibrates, right?" "Having your phone out sends an implicit message to the other person that the little black box on the table matters more than the other person, and it degrades the quality of the conversation." "The one thing we've all got in common is we have today to try and do some things that serve a purpose and help another person, and if you miss that opportunity, it's gone." "None of them, none of the headstones say anything about those kind of resume virtues that we were talking about." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:00 Start of Interview 02:08 Busy, Yet Drifting from What Matters 05:50 Rethinking the "One True Calling" 07:38 Why "Follow Your Passion" Can Backfire 09:26 From "What Do I Do?" to "Who Do I Help?" 11:20 How Our Parents' Paths Shape Us 12:11 When Admirable Influence Becomes a Limiting Script 15:01 Unlearning the "Always the Hardest Worker" Mindset 16:55 Are We Nudging Our Kids Into Our Dreams? 19:23 Status Seeking as Career Quicksand 22:02 Choosing Your Own Scoreboard 23:38 Smartphones and the Threat to Purpose 26:28 Making Technology Work for You 28:05 How Mortality Sharpens Purpose 30:52 What the Headstones Don't Say 32:33 Helping Kids Build Lives That Matter 35:21 End of Interview 35:48 Andy Comments After the Interview 40:20 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Tom and his new book at tomrath.org/whats-the-point. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 132 with Tom Rath. An earlier conversation with Tom, digging into his story and his research on wellbeing. Episode 140 with Tom Rath. Another previous discussion with Tom on wellness and living with strengths. Episode 31 with Adam Grant. Adam's first-ever podcast interview, where he shares insights on how to lead with meaning. Episode 261 with David Epstein. A conversation about his book Range, a helpful complement on career decisions for kids and for us. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa—the podcast's AI persona—to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Business Acumen Topics: Purpose, Leadership, Career Development, Passion, Wellbeing, Intentionality, Status, Comparison, Digital Distraction, Mortality, Parenting, Meaningful Work, Project Management The following music was used for this episode: Music: Summer Awakening by Frank Schroeter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Tuesday by Sascha Ende License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary In this episode, Andy sits down with Attia Qureshi, a coach and negotiation expert who is co-author, with John Richardson, of Never Settle. There's no shortage of great negotiation advice out there, yet in real conversations with real stakes and real emotions, that advice often fails to turn into action. This book tackles that gap between insight and habit. Attia shares why emotions are not a distraction from negotiation but central to it, why getting clear about what you actually want is harder than it sounds, and how we leave value on the table without realizing it. You'll hear practical stories, from resetting a difficult relationship with a glass of lemonade to expanding the pie in a salary negotiation, plus small daily exercises for building resilience to rejection and learning to say no in a way that strengthens relationships rather than damaging them. If you're looking for practical, doable ways to become a more confident negotiator and influencer, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "You can get more by caring about what the other person needs and building a strong relational foundation." "People are not born amazing negotiators. They develop that skill over time, just like people are not born confident." "You have to practice that small step out in the real world where the stakes are low and build that skill day after day, month after month." "You and I have probably already negotiated half a dozen times today." "When someone gives us something, we want to return the favor." "New studies now show that 90 to 95% of decision-making comes from unconscious emotional processing." "So many of us quit before we even start." "But if we do have a goal and we do prepare for the conversation, our likelihood of success is double." "A good negotiation doesn't always mean getting 'yes' at the end of it." "I always tell my students, people can almost always help you. It depends on if they want to or not." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:06 Start of Interview 02:17 Growing Up: Early Lessons in Conflict 07:10 Negotiation and Confidence Are Skills, Not Personality 08:04 Life Is Full of Everyday Negotiations 10:30 Why Negotiation Training Often Fails 12:30 Resetting a Difficult Relationship 17:20 Influence vs. Manipulation 22:33 Emotions, Fear, and Building Resilience 28:00 Using the Emotion Wheel 29:36 Getting Clear on What You Really Want 33:39 Expanding the Pie: Creating Value 40:50 The Power of Saying No 47:27 Teaching Kids to Negotiate 51:23 End of Interview 51:55 Andy Comments After the Interview 55:22 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Attia and her work at AttiaQureshi.com. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 157 with Dr. Robert Cialdini. Known as the godfather of influence, his name came up several times during today's discussion, making this a great follow-up. Episode 412 with Scott Walker. A former Scotland Yard hostage negotiator who shares a lot of practical lessons about influence. Episode 385 with Vanessa Patrick. She wrote one of the best books on how to say no, a fitting companion to today's conversation. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa—the podcast's AI persona—to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills Topics: Negotiation, Influence, Leadership, Project Management, Reciprocity, Emotional Intelligence, Resilience, Saying No, Stakeholder Management, Relationship Building, Value Creation, Confidence The following music was used for this episode: Music: Quantum Sparks (Full Version) by MusicLFiles License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Tropical Vibe by WinnieTheMoog License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Summary In this episode, Andy sits down with Fred Marshall, entrepreneur, founder of Quantum Learning, and author of Thrive: The Antidote to Future Shock. Fred introduces his Super Eight, eight interconnected areas of life that shape our ability to adapt, lead, and grow in a world of accelerating change. Together, they explore why doing all the seemingly right things, the endless life hacks, can still leave you feeling off. Fred makes the case that attention is the single variable that governs almost everything, and that you can ignore almost all of the change coming at you and still thrive. You'll hear about managing your neural net, guarding your time with two 90-minute focus blocks, clearing the open loops that clog your thinking, and choosing the relationships and ecosystems that lift you up. Fred also walks through PANDA, a simple five-step method inspired by a panda that helps you stop a mental spiral and regain focus. If you're looking for a practical, hopeful way to lead through an age of AI and constant change, this episode is for you! Sound Bites "You can ignore almost all of it." "So everything, everything you look at, every book you read, every text you read, everything you do is shaping your neural net." "If you look at that rock, you're gonna hit that rock." "Two 90-minute blocks a day is my new normal." "If you want time to go fast, turn on your computer, open your iPad, or look at your phone." "An open loop is something that needs to get done, that's not done yet, that's still taking up space in your head." "The worst thing is to think of something when you can't act on it." "The people you surround yourself with have an enormous impact on your life and how you think and how everything unfolds, and it's probably the most important choice you make is who you hang out with." "If you develop relationships with people in a growing ecosystem, you're gonna have a great career, you're gonna have a great life." "I want to prepare people so that it's, it's more of surfing a big wave rather than getting overwhelmed by a tsunami." "And I think if you're in your head and you're spiraling, getting out of your head and into action is how you really close the loop." "But if you can just stop for a second and give that person your full attention, even if it's just for a minute, it's so powerful." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 01:47 Start of Interview 02:00 Getting to Know Fred 04:29 What Most People Get Wrong About Change 06:29 Designing Your Life 08:03 The Life Hack Paradox 08:34 Attention: The Single Variable 10:20 The Super Eight and the Neural Net 13:00 Guarding Your Time: Fred 3.0 15:38 Take Care of Your Cells 16:09 Rethinking Sleep and Open Loops 17:46 Minimum Viable Exercise 21:23 The PANDA Method 26:22 Designing Your Relationships 28:32 Riding Growing Ecosystems 31:00 Building Systems for the Future 34:12 Applying It at Home 36:48 End of Interview 37:19 Andy Comments After the Interview 40:32 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Fred and his work at thrivefutureyou.com. For more learning on this topic, check out: Episode 437 with Nada Sanders. A conversation about future-prepping your career in the age of AI. Episode 382 with Hal Hershfield. Ideas from his book Your Future Self that remain completely relevant to our times today. Episode 313 with futurist Brian David Johnson. A discussion that changed how Andy thinks about trying to predict the future. Chat with PMeLa You can chat directly with PMeLa—the podcast's AI persona—to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her. Join Us for LEAD52 I know you want to be a more confident leader–that's why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It's 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it's all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks! Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills Topics: Artificial Intelligence, Change Management, Leadership, Attention, Focus, Productivity, Resilience, Relationships, Systems Thinking, Future of Work The following music was used for this episode: Music: Imagefilm 034 by Sascha Ende License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Fashion Corporate by Frank Schroeter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license