Human Happiness is Not a Business Case: Lessons from Bree Groff

In this episode, Andrew is joined by Sue der Kinderen, organizational health psychologist and researcher. Rather than focusing only on how people feel at work, Sue invites us to pay closer attention to what people actually do.Drawing on her research into eudaimonic well-being at work, Sue introduces a behavioral view of meaningful work, one rooted in personal growth, pursuit of purpose, and positive relationships. Together, Andrew and Sue explore how these behaviors show up in real organizational settings, why context and culture matter so much, and how leaders can create environments that support reflection, courage, and sustainable well-being.Key TakeawaysMeaningful work is not only about well-being, but about well-doing through everyday behaviorsEudaimonic work shows up through personal growth, pursuit of purpose, and positive relationshipsThese behaviors are partly stable but strongly shaped by work climate and leadershipReflection and social support are essential for sustaining meaningful work, especially during changeEudaimonia requires courage and discomfort, not constant positivityWhy This Episode MattersAs work becomes faster, more complex, and increasingly shaped by technology, many people struggle to find meaning in what they do. This conversation offers a grounded alternative to abstract ideas about purpose by showing how meaningful work can be built through concrete actions and supportive contexts.About Our GuestSue der Kinderen is an organizational health psychologist, coach, and thought leader with over 20 years of experience at the intersection of work, health, and human potential. Originally trained as a counselling psychologist in South Africa, she later completed a PhD in Organizational Psychology at the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, where her research focused on eudaimonic well-being behaviors at work.Through her platform Ncourage, Sue translates psychological science into speaking, thought leadership, and bespoke workplace interventions, with a strong emphasis on social support and peer reflection as drivers of sustainable change.

Work does not happen in a vacuum. It happens in spaces that shape how we feel, think, connect, and grow.In this episode, Andrew sits down with Jenna Mikus to explore what it means to design for human flourishing. Jenna brings a rare interdisciplinary lens that bridges architecture, wellbeing science, organizational design, and philosophy. Together, they unpack the concept of eudaimonic design and what it looks like in practice, from homes and workplaces to educational and community environments.Key TakeawaysMeaningful work depends on the environments that surround us, including physical, organizational, and social conditions.Eudaimonic design blends external structure with personal agency, recognizing that flourishing emerges through interaction, not control.Inclusive design strengthens wellbeing for everyone by offering choice, flexibility, and dignity across diverse needs and life stages.Sensory experience, awe, and delight play an underappreciated role in motivation, creativity, and connection at work.Designing for flourishing requires interdisciplinary thinking and a willingness to sit with complexity and uncertainty.Why This Episode MattersAs organizations rethink work, space, and culture in a post-pandemic world, this conversation offers a deeper foundation for those decisions. Rather than asking how to bring people back or drive performance, we should consider what conditions help people become their best selves.This episode expands the meaning of meaningful work by showing how design, wellbeing, and purpose intersect in everyday environments.About Our GuestJenna Mikus is a strategic advisor and researcher who brings together architectural science and wellbeing science to shape environments that support human flourishing.She is the Managing Partner of Eudae Group, where she guides organizations in designing spaces and experiences that elevate health, belonging, creativity, and innovation. Her work draws on more than twenty years of consulting experience, a background in engineering and design, and ongoing research across Human Buildings Interaction, salutogenic design, and inclusive environments.Jenna also serves as the Flourishing by Design Chair and holds fellowship appointments with the University of Melbourne’s Centre for Wellbeing Science and Queensland University of Technology’s Centre for Decent Work and Industry.ResourcesFollow Jenna on LinkedInEudae GroupFlourishing by Design (FxD) community of practiceUniversity of Melbourne Centre for Wellbeing ScienceQueensland University of Technology Centre for Decent Work and Industry

In this episode, Andrew speaks with Bree Groff about why our days at work deserve protection on their own terms and how leaders can build healthier, more human team environments.Together, they explore why burnout often signals a deeper business issue, how time becomes the most undervalued resource in the workplace, and what it looks like to create systems that support real people rather than extract from them.Bree Groff is a workplace culture expert and author of Today Was Fun, with a career spent guiding leaders at companies like Microsoft, Google, Pfizer, and Memorial Sloan Kettering through complex change.Key TakeawaysHuman happiness is not a business case. Bree argues that engagement is simply human happiness in corporate language, and she invites leaders to value the finite days people give to work rather than justify them through productivity gains.Burnout has structural roots. Chronic overwork often reveals a broken business model. When the math no longer works, leaders must rethink priorities, resources, and expectations instead of placing the burden on individual resilience.Practical systems make work more human. Bree shares several tools that help teams reset and reconnect, including protected “golden time,” deep work blocks, and open narration when the workload is unusually heavy. These small practices build trust and reduce isolation.Fun and hard work can coexist. The goal is not to avoid effort but to create an environment where people can show up fully and work hard without sacrificing well-being or dignity. Joy, collaboration, and emotional steadiness help teams move through demanding moments together.Why This Episode MattersMeaningful work requires leaders who understand that every workday is a real day in someone’s life, and that structure, pacing, and expectations shape whether people thrive or slowly burn out. Bree’s insights offer a blueprint for designing team environments that honor time, reduce unnecessary suffering, and rebuild the human connections that make work sustainable.These ideas have clear implications for anyone responsible for people, culture, or performance.About Our GuestBree Groff is a workplace culture expert and author of Today Was Fun: A Book About Work (Seriously). She advises senior leaders on transformation, culture, and organizational change, informed by her work with Microsoft, Google, Pfizer, and Memorial Sloan Kettering. Bree’s career includes serving as CEO of NOBL Collective and working as a Senior Advisor at SYPartners. Her approach to work centers on humanity, practical design, and the belief that our days are precious and worth spending well, which sits at the heart of this conversation.ResourcesBree’s website: https://www.breegroff.comToday Was Fun: A Book About Work (Seriously)

Healthcare workers enter their roles with deep values and a desire to help others, yet many find themselves in systems that constrain their ability to act on those values. In this episode, Laura Holford and Anu Gorukanti explore how community, creativity, and spirituality give clinicians a way to restore agency and reconnect with their humanity.The trio discuss moral distress, moral injury, and the heavy emotional load that comes with caring for people inside profit-driven institutions.Laura and Anu describe how their work at Introspective Spaces creates room for vulnerability across hierarchy, rebuilds trust among clinicians, and strengthens the capacity to show up with presence.Key TakeawaysMoral injury affects many people in healthcare: Systemic constraints, understaffing, and inequities create powerlessness, isolation, and grief that clinicians often carry alone.Community care restores agency: Gathering across roles allows clinicians to see each other’s humanity and rebuild connection, trust, and collective strength.Creativity and spirituality support sustainability: Practices like the Artist’s Way help clinicians return to their values, slow down, and show up with integrity.Mutuality improves patient care: When clinicians tend to their own well-being, patient outcomes improve and the work becomes more sustainable.Why This Episode MattersMeaningful work requires environments where people feel connected, valued, and aligned with their purpose. This episode shows how collective care, shared reflection, and creative practice support real change. The conversation offers leaders and teams a model for building workplaces where humanity and healing can thrive.About Our GuestsLaura Holford, RN MSN is an oncology certified nurse and public health nurse in Sacramento, California. She focuses on reducing nursing burnout and moral distress and works to rebuild accountability in healthcare. Laura draws on liberation theology and her background as a campus minister and lay community pastor. She helps people develop reflective and spiritual practices that support meaningful work and clear action.Anu Gorukanti, MD is a pediatric hospitalist and public health advocate at a county hospital in Los Angeles. Her work centers on health equity, racial justice, and the role of contemplation in social change. Anu believes that clarity about personal values creates space for a more authentic life and more compassionate systems.Resources to Learn MoreIntrospective SpacesThe Artist’s Way by Julia CameronEmergent Strategy by adrienne maree brownThe Art of Gathering by Priya ParkerThe Wounded Healer by Henri Nouwen

In this episode, philosopher Kevin Aho joins Andrew Soren to explore how modern life has turned meaning into measurement. Together, they examine how neoliberal values have reshaped higher education, the wellness industry, and even our sense of self.Kevin and Andrew discuss how the culture of busyness and the commodification of well-being have left many people feeling unmoored, and why rediscovering our shared humanity might be the most important work of all.Kevin Aho is Professor of Philosophy and Chair of the Department of Communication and Philosophy at Florida Gulf Coast University. His work explores existentialism, phenomenology, and the philosophy of health and illness.Key TakeawaysMeaning has become a metric. When education and work are reduced to measurable outputs, we lose sight of their deeper purpose: to help people grow, think critically, and engage with one another as human beings.The wellness industry reflects a deeper emptiness. The rise of “self-care” culture often masks structural problems, placing responsibility for well-being entirely on individuals instead of addressing the social conditions that shape health and belonging.The self is not a solo project. Kevin challenges the notion of a separate, autonomous self, suggesting that meaning and identity only exist through relationships with others.Community is the antidote to alienation. Small acts of connection, through art, education, or shared spaces, can help rebuild the collective life that neoliberal culture erodes.Why This Episode MattersIn a time when organizations are driven by efficiency and individuals feel pressured to optimize every part of life, this conversation reminds us that meaning cannot be measured or achieved alone.For leaders and changemakers, Kevin’s ideas offer a call to design systems and workplaces that honor interdependence, nurture reflection, and restore our sense of community and care.About Our GuestKevin Aho is Professor of Philosophy and Chair of the Department of Communication and Philosophy at Florida Gulf Coast University. His research spans existentialism, phenomenology, hermeneutics, and the philosophy of health and illness. Through his books, Kevin explores what it means to live well, face suffering, and find meaning in our finite lives. His forthcoming work, A Phenomenology of Functional Neurological Disorder, continues this inquiry into how illness and vulnerability reveal what it truly means to be human.

What can Aristotle teach us about meaningful work today?In this episode, Andrew Soren sits down with Marcel Meyer, professor at the School of Economics and Business at the University of Navarra, to explore how virtue ethics can help us navigate modern leadership and organizational life.Drawing from Aristotle’s concept of eudaimonia (human flourishing), Marcel shares how cultivating character, wisdom, and purpose allows leaders to create workplaces where people thrive individually and collectively.Key TakeawaysVirtue is developed through action and reflection. Ethical character isn’t innate, but built through everyday choices, habits, and feedback that shape who we become at work and in life.Flourishing happens in community. Meaningful work and ethical growth depend on relationships and shared responsibility, not isolation.Leadership is a form of rhetoric. Effective leaders inspire through pathos (empathy), logos (reason), and ethos (character), which aligns emotion, logic, and integrity to create trust and shared purpose.Hope and optimism can be cultivated. Drawing from Positive Organizational Scholarship, Marcel outlines how leaders can foster environments that generate positive cycles of emotion, action, and growth.Why This Episode MattersAristotle may not have written about modern workplaces, but his philosophy offers a timeless framework for understanding what makes work meaningful. Marcel’s perspective bridges ancient wisdom with organizational science, offering leaders practical ways to ground their teams in purpose, integrity, and human connection. This episode is for anyone curious about how moral character and practical wisdom can shape organizations that truly enable people to flourish.About Our GuestMarcel Meyer is a professor at the School of Economics and Business at the University of Navarra, specializing in ethical leadership, organizational behavior, and Aristotelian virtue ethics. His research examines how leadership grounded in virtue and purpose fosters human flourishing within organizations. Marcel’s work integrates philosophy with management practice, spanning topics from executive communication on sustainability to the cultivation of practical wisdom in leaders. A former corporate trainer for companies like Volkswagen and Liebherr, he brings both academic and applied expertise to his study of virtue in business.

What makes people feel they truly matter at work? In this episode, we talk with Dr. Beverly Kaye, a trailblazer in career development, employee engagement, and retention. For more than 50 years, Bev has shown that the small things leaders do, like noticing and naming what they see, can have the biggest impact on whether people grow, feel valued, and choose to stay.In their conversation, Andrew and Bev explore why growth is more than climbing the ladder, how everyday conversations shape engagement, and what it means to lead with an “opportunity minded” approach.Key TakeawaysNoticing creates mattering. Saying out loud what you see in someone is the simplest way to show they matter.Growth is not just up. Careers can be kaleidoscopes, shifting through lateral moves and fresh perspectives.Conversations are retention tools. Stay interviews and everyday check-ins build trust and engagement.Opportunity mindset matters. Leaders and employees can either be opportunity minded or opportunity blinded.Why This Episode MattersMeaningful work isn’t only about the tasks we do, but how others see us and help us grow. Bev’s lifetime of work shows that noticing, mattering, and honest conversations are the foundation of engagement and retention.About Our GuestDr. Beverly Kaye is recognized internationally as one of the most knowledgeable voices on career development, employee engagement, and retention. Her books have become classics for managers and organizations worldwide, offering simple, practical tools for growth and retention that stand the test of time.In the blog, we expand on Kaye’s ideas with more context and examples, including her concept of kaleidoscope careers. Read more here: https://www.eudaimonicbydesign.com/resilience/bev-kaye

This week, we’re celebrating a milestone: the 50th episode of Meaningful Work Matters!Over the past two years, we’ve spoken with more than 50 researchers, thinkers, and practitioners who are reimagining what makes work meaningful.To mark this moment, we are doing something different. Instead of an interview, Andrew shares his own reflections, based on an article co-written with his mentor and friend, Dr. Carol Ryff. Together, they explore what it means to see work not only as a driver of productivity or advantage but also as a moral commitment and a way of reclaiming the communal soul of work.This special solo episode invites you to pause, reflect, and imagine how workplaces can become modern-day polis: moral communities designed for human flourishing.Key TakeawaysAndrew reflects on what it would mean to treat organizations as moral communities, drawing inspiration from Aristotle’s polis.He explores the tension between individual wellbeing and collective flourishing, and why both matter for the future of work.The episode touches on what makes “decent work” a foundation for human thriving, and why organizations cannot ignore it.Andrew shares why the business case for wellbeing is not enough, and what it takes to move beyond metrics into moral purpose.Finally, he considers how the arts and the stories we tell can help us reclaim the deeper soul of work.Why This Episode MattersThis conversation is an invitation for reflection, dialogue, and action. For a deeper dive into the themes Andrew shares in this episode, visit our companion blog.If you have been part of our journey so far, thank you. If you are new, this is a perfect time to start listening. And if something resonates, we would love for you to share it with a friend or colleague and let us know what ideas or stories it sparks for you.

What makes work worth doing? In this episode, Andrew sits down with Jennifer Tosti-Kharas and Christopher Wong Michaelson, co-authors of Is Your Work Worth It? and The Meaning and Purpose of Work. Jennifer is a psychologist and Christopher is a philosopher, and together they bring complementary perspectives to one of the most important questions of our time: how do we define meaningful work, and what are the risks and responsibilities that come with it? Their dialogue touches on everything from the double-edged sword of calling, to the ethical obligations of organizations, to what AI and automation might mean for the future of work.Key TakeawaysMeaningful work is both personal and ethical. It is about how work feels to us, and whether it contributes to the greater good.Calling can be inspiring but also harmful. Leaders must recognize both the promise and the risks.Organizations have real responsibility. Beyond mission statements, they must design jobs and cultures that allow people to thrive.The future of work will test us. From “bullshit jobs” to AI, leaders and employees alike must wrestle with what work should be, not just what it is.Why This Episode MattersConversations about meaningful work often stop at the individual level, but this episode pushes us to think bigger. Leaders and organizations hold real power in shaping whether work supports or undermines human flourishing. At a time when burnout is widespread, purpose is marketed as a recruitment tool, and technology is reshaping jobs, Jennifer and Christopher remind us that meaning is a collective responsibility. For organizations, this means creating conditions where people can thrive without being exploited. For leaders, it means asking not only whether your work feels meaningful, but also whether it contributes to a greater good.About Our GuestsJennifer Tosti-Kharas is the Camilla Latino Spinelli Endowed Term Chair and Professor of Management at Babson College. She researches and teaches about what it means to craft a meaningful career and the risks and rewards of work as a calling.Christopher Wong Michaelson is the Barbara and David A. Koch Endowed Chair in Business Ethics and Academic Director of the Melrose and The Toro Company Center for Principled Leadership at the University of St. Thomas. He also teaches at NYU’s Stern School of Business. A philosopher with decades of experience advising business leaders, Christopher writes and teaches on meaning, purpose, and the ethical responsibilities of work.

What does it really take to understand well-being?In this episode, Andrew Soren speaks with Llewellyn van Zyl, a positive organizational psychologist and data scientist who is rethinking how we measure and design for human flourishing.Llewellyn shares why traditional “top-down” models of well-being often fall short, and introduces a bottom-up, person-centered approach that treats every individual as a unique case. From there, he explains how artificial intelligence and machine learning might help scale these insights, and where we need to be cautious about over-reliance and ethical risks.Key TakeawaysTop-down models have limits. Frameworks like PERMA can’t fully capture cultural differences or personal experiences, and often prescribe “averages” that don’t work for everyone.Bottom-up approaches start with the person. Llewellyn outlined eight principles for understanding well-being as a dynamic, context-dependent process that unfolds uniquely for each individual.AI offers possibilities and pitfalls. Machine learning can help identify unique drivers of well-being and burnout at the individual level, but it also raises concerns around ethics, dependence, and the dehumanization of care.The future of work will require balance. Technology should augment human wisdom, freeing us to focus on the creativity, ethics, and relationships that machines cannot replicate.Why This Episode MattersAs organizations grapple with the well-being of their employees, this conversation offers both a critique of the “one-size-fits-all” approach and a vision for what’s possible when data, AI, and human-centered design come together. It challenges us to think carefully about how we measure what matters, and how to ensure technology supports, rather than replaces, what makes work meaningful.Llewellyn also shares concrete practices and stories, such as why “connection to nature” isn’t universal and how AI can identify signs of burnout in unexpected ways.You can explore these ideas further in our blog here: eudaimonicbydesign.com/resilience/llewellyn-van-zylAbout Our GuestProf. Llewellyn E. van Zyl, PhD, is an award-winning positive organizational psychologist and data scientist. He is a professor at the Optentia Research Unit at North-West University and Chief Solutions Architect at Psynalytics, where he pioneers person-centered, idiographic approaches to employee well-being through advanced analytics and AI. With more than 15 years of consulting experience and over 100 scientific publications, his work is reshaping how organizations understand and support the employee experience.