From Practice to Business: Scaling Beyond Yourself, with Andy Hays

AI is more than just another tool for lawyers. It may fundamentally change how law firms make money. In episode #607 of the Lawyerist Podcast, Stephanie Everett talks with legal industry analyst Jordan Furlong about the shifting economics of law practice and what happens as AI begins doing work lawyers once billed for.  Jordan explains why the traditional law firm model built on billable hours and human effort is starting to break down as legal workflows become automated. Together, they explore how AI may shift lawyers away from producing legal work and toward supervising systems, validating outcomes, and delivering the one thing machines cannot easily replicate: judgment under uncertainty.  The future of law practice may depend less on expertise and more on qualities machines struggle to replicate such as judgment, character, and the ability to guide clients through uncertainty. The conversation also explores why hourly billing may no longer make sense in an AI-driven world, how firms can rethink pricing around outcomes and client experience, and why smaller firms may adapt more quickly.  If the billable hour fades and AI begins handling the routine “widgets” of legal work, the real question becomes what a lawyer’s value is now, and how firms should prepare for what comes next.  Listen to our previous episodes on Artificial Intelligence and the Future of Legal Practice.  #601 – Beyond Chatbots: Using Agentic AI in Law Firm Intake, with Matt Spiegel Apple | Spotify | LTN  #590 – Innovating Without Overwhelm: Practical AI Tips for Lawyers, with Graydon Trusler Apple | Spotify | LTN  #587 – Future-Proofing Your Firm in the Age of AI, with Jack Newton Apple | Spotify | LTN  #577 – Rethinking Law Firm Growth in the Age of AI, with Sam Harden Apple | Spotify | LTN   Links from the episode:  https://jordanfurlong.substack.com.    Have thoughts about today’s episode? Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X!  If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you.   Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com.    Chapters / Timestamps:   00:00 – Introduction  01:45 – Why Everyone Is Talking About AI in Law  04:20 – Meet Jordan Furlong  06:40 – The Real Disruption AI Brings to Law Firms  09:30 – The Economics Behind the Billable Hour  12:50 – What Happens When Software Does the Work  16:05 – The Shift from Expertise to Judgment  19:20 – What Lawyers Still Do Better Than AI  22:40 – Client Value in an AI-Driven Profession  26:00 – Why Smaller Firms May Have an Advantage  29:10 – What This Means for New Lawyers  32:45 – Preparing for the Next Version of Law Practice  36:10 – Closing Thoughts

Standing out in a crowded legal market requires more than competence. It requires intentional client experience. In episode 606 of the Lawyerist Podcast, Zack Glaser talks with Patrick Patino about redefining professionalism and building a law firm people actually want to work with.  Patrick shares how he walked away from a successful bankruptcy practice to experiment with a more human-centered model focused on connection, accessibility, and community. They examine why most firms look and feel the same, how experience shapes client loyalty, and why fear-based marketing quietly undermines trust.  If you are questioning the traditional law firm playbook, this episode offers concrete ways to attract better clients, clarify your positioning, and design a firm that fits both your values and your market.  Links from the episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-newfangled-lawyer/id1699645225 Listen to our previous episodes on Client Experience & Law Firm Differentiation.  #603 – Turn Expertise into Clients: Building Authority That AI Recognizes, with Karin Conroy Apple | Spotify | LTN  #600 – Designing a Law Firm You Actually Want to Run, with Stephanie Everett Apple | Spotify | LTN  #575 – From Overwhelmed Lawyer to Strategic Law Firm Owner, with Chad Fox Apple | Spotify | LTN  #559 – The Imitation Trap: Lessons from 15 Years of Top Law Firm Websites, with Conroy Creative Counsel Apple | Spotify | LTN Have thoughts about today’s episode? Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X!  If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you.  Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com.    Chapters / Timestamps:   00:00 – Introduction  01:15 – Discipline Is Boring Until Results Show Up  07:05 – Meet Patrick Patino  09:30 – Rethinking Professionalism  11:15 – High Five Legal and the Bankruptcy Experiment  13:30 – Fear Based Marketing vs. Levity  16:10 – Meeting Clients Where They Are  18:45 – Community Over Sales Pitches  20:50 – The Copycat Law Firm Problem  23:30 – Experience Is the Differentiator  26:05 – The Crumbl Cookie Model of Law  28:40 – Scaling Culture with the Pod Model  31:15 – Talking With Clients, Not At Them  34:00 – Collaboration Over Control  36:20 – Define Your Ideal Client for Real  38:45 – Solo and Small Firm Advantage  41:20 – What It Means to Be Newfangled

In episode 604 of Lawyerist Podcast, Stephanie Everett sits down with Andy Hays to explore the shift from solo practitioner to true business owner. After nearly two decades of firm ownership, Andy shares why he recently rebranded to remove his personal name from the firm, a strategic move designed to reduce dependency on him and strengthen the firm’s future.  They discuss delegation, hiring before you feel fully ready, automating repetitive processes, and setting clear expectations for team performance. The conversation also dives into accountability, leadership growth, and how small operational improvements compound over time.  If you are ready to move beyond founder dependence and build a firm designed for scalability, resilience, and long-term value, this episode offers practical frameworks and real-world insight to help you get there.  Listen to our previous episodes on Scaling & Building a Sellable Firm.  #306: Getting to Know & Love Your Numbers, with Bernadette Harris Apple | Spotify | LTN  #583: From Survival to Strategy: Scaling Your Law Firm Finances, with Bernadette Harris Apple | Spotify | LTN  #588: Practice Smarter, Not Harder: 411 Tips for Modern Lawyers, with Jordan Couch Apple | Spotify | LTN  Have thoughts about today’s episode? Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X!    If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you.    Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com.    Chapters / Timestamps:   00:00 – Introduction  03:50 – Standards, KPIs & Hard Conversations  07:30 – Meet Andy  08:45 – Lessons from 18 Years in Practice  10:15 – Removing Your Name from the Firm  12:45 – Building a Firm You Can Sell  15:30 – Automation & Low Hanging Fruit  17:00 – Accountability & Team Meetings  19:25 – The “I’ll Just Do It Myself” Trap  21:15 – Hiring Strategically  23:30 – Expanding the Physical Office  25:40 – Closing Thoughts

In episode 604 of Lawyerist Podcast, discover how addressing alcohol and mental health can unlock greater clarity, confidence, and long-term success in your legal career. Stephanie Everett sits down with IP attorney and recovery coach Melissa Silverstein to talk about alcohol, achievement, and the hidden pressures inside the legal profession.  Melissa shares her personal journey from high-achieving “functioning” lawyer to long-term sobriety, and explains why so many attorneys struggle silently while still appearing successful on the outside. Together, they explore law firm drinking culture, client expectations, stigma around asking for help, and why recovery does not have to mean labels or all-or-nothing thinking.  If you’ve ever felt burned out, anxious, or not quite like your best self, this episode offers practical insight, reassurance, and a path toward building a healthier, more sustainable legal career without shame.  Listen to our previous episodes on Lawyer Well Being & Recovery.  469: Lawyers in Crisis: Navigating Addiction and Mental Healthy, with Brian Cuban Apple | Spotify | LTN  #477 Controlling Alcohol with Annie Grace Apple | Spotify | LTN  #506: Managing Stress & Avoiding Burnout, with Emily Nagoski Apple | Spotify | LTN  #533 The Alcohol Experiment, with Annie Grace Apple | Spotify | LTN  #535 Lawyer Burnout: 5 Hidden Signs You’re About to Crash, with Natasha Evans Apple | Spotify | LTN    Have thoughts about today’s episode? Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X!    If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you.    Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com.    Chapters / Timestamps:   00:00 – Intro & Conference Recap  08:30 – Melissa’s Story  10:00 – Achievement as a Mask  12:10 – Rethinking Abstinence  14:30 – Harm Reduction & Personal Choice  15:50 – Warning Signs in Law Practice  16:30 – The Role of the Bar  17:50 – Leadership & Language  20:00 – Rethinking Firm Events  23:10 – Career Growth After Recovery  26:00 – De-Stigmatizing Help  29:00 – Closing Thoughts

In episode 603 of Lawyerist Podcast, Zack Glaser sits down with Karin Conroy to examine how AI is changing the rules of law firm marketing and what that means for lawyers who want to stand out for the right reasons.   Karin explains why expertise, not automation, is what rises to the top in an AI filtered world. As large language models reshape how potential clients search for answers, shortcuts like keyword stuffing and mass produced content are quickly losing their impact. What stands out instead is real authority built through credibility, third party validation, media appearances, and consistent messaging across platforms.  The conversation also challenges the idea that your website is your first impression. In today’s landscape, visibility often starts elsewhere. Zack and Karin unpack how referral systems support a larger authority strategy and what it truly means to move from building, to stabilizing, to growing your marketing in a deliberate and sustainable way.  Listen to our previous episodes with Karin:   #559: The Imitation Trap: Lessons from 15 Years of Top Law Firm Websites , with Conroy Creative Counsel (Sponsored) Apple | Spotify | LTN   #546: Unlock Law Firm Growth: AI marketing Secrets with Karin Conroy Apple | Spotify | LTN   #584: How to Stay Human in the Age of AI-driven Law Firm Marketing, with Creative Conroy Apple | Spotify | LTN      Links from the episode:  https://conroycreativecounsel.com/    Have thoughts about today’s episode? Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X!   If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you.   Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com.    Chapters / Timestamps:   00:00 – Meet Karin Conroy02:30 – AI, Agents & The Content Explosion04:15 – The M Dash as a Trust Tell07:00 – Why Google Isn’t the Front Door Anymore09:00 – Knowledge Panels & Online Authority12:30 – You Can’t Fake Expertise15:00 – Stop Chasing SEO Tricks17:30 – Authority Through Media & PR21:00 – Who Needs a Media Kit23:00 – Referrals Are a Marketing Strategy25:00 – Build Before You Scale28:00 – AI Rewards Real Experts32:30 – Closing Thoughts

Lawyers have always relied on tools—but AI is different. It doesn’t just assist with tasks; it makes decisions, applies judgment, and shapes outcomes. In episode #602 of the Lawyerist Podcast, Stephanie Everett talks with Damien Riehl about what ethical responsibility looks like when AI starts doing legal work on its own.  Their conversation examines how AI systems embed values, why verification matters more than transparency, and how lawyers can responsibly use tools they don’t fully understand. They also explore what legal expertise looks like in an AI-powered future—and why intuition, trust, and integrity may matter more than ever as machines take over the “widgets” of legal work.  Listen to our other episodes on Ethics and Responsibility in AI.  EP. 582 Deepfakes, Data, and Duty: Navigating AI Ethics in Law, with Merisa Bowers Apple | Spotify | LTN  EP. 543 What Lawyers Need to Know About the Ethics of Using AI, with Hilary Gerzhoy Apple | Spotify | LTN    Have thoughts about today’s episode? Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X!    If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you.    Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com.    Chapters / Timestamps:   00:00 – Introduction  05:55 – Meet Damien Riehl  08:10 – Why AI Is a Different Kind of Legal Tool  11:05 – When AI Starts Doing Legal Work  14:30 – Ethics, Values, and AI Judgment  18:45 – Foundation Models vs. Legal-Specific AI  21:15 – The “Duck Test” and Trusting AI Output  24:45 – Trust but Verify: Reviewing AI Work  28:40 – What Lawyers Are Underestimating About AI  31:10 – What Still Requires Human Judgment  34:30 – Intuition, Trust, and Integrity in Law  37:40 – What This Means for Billing and the Future  40:40 – Closing Thoughts

Lawyers are understandably cautious about AI—but the real risk may be using it the wrong way. In episode 601 of the Lawyerist Podcast, Zack Glaser sits down with Matt Spiegel of Lawmatics to explore how agentic AI is changing the way law firms handle intake and evaluate potential clients.  Matt breaks down why surface-level AI tools fall short, how agentic AI can make informed recommendations instead of opaque scores, and what it takes to build trust in automated decision-making. They also discuss how better intake systems can reduce wasted time, improve lead quality, and support more intentional firm growth.  Listen to our other episodes on Artificial Intelligence in Legal Practice.  #497: Real Talk About Artificial Intelligence in Your Office, with Ben Apple | Spotify | LTN  #543: What Lawyers Need to Know About the Ethics of Using AI, with Hilary Gerzhoy Apple | Spotify | LTN  #546: Unlock Law Firm Growth: AI marketing Secrets with Karin Conroy Apple | Spotify | LTN  Links from the episode:  https://www.lawmatics.com/    Have thoughts about today’s episode? Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X!    If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you.    Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com.    Chapters / Timestamps:   00:00 – Introduction  01:28 – Meet Matt Spiegel  03:55 – From the Cloud to AI in Legal Tech  05:38 – Why Lawyers Are Cautious About AI  06:50 – Moving Beyond Surface-Level AI  08:51 – Why Lead Scoring Misses the Point  11:14 – What Makes Agentic AI Different  14:10 – Generative AI vs. Agentic AI  15:57 – Teaching Software to Make Decisions  17:17 – Automating Outcomes, Not Steps  20:10 – Why Lawmatics Was Already Agentic  21:47 – Trust, Guardrails, and Client Data  24:20 – What Qualify AI Does Differently  25:33 – Closing Thoughts

Starting a law firm doesn’t automatically make you a business owner—designing one does. In episode #600 of the Lawyerist Podcast, Stephanie Everett and Zack Glaser kick off a four-part series on how to design a law firm intentionally, rather than defaulting into a business you didn’t mean to build.  They unpack the biggest myths lawyers believe when starting a firm, why being a good lawyer isn’t enough to create a sustainable business, and how relying on personal heroics instead of structure quietly traps firm owners over time. Stephanie breaks down the three constraints that cause most firms to struggle, the three distinct paths law firms can take, and the key questions lawyers should ask early to align their business model with the life and career they actually want.  Listen to our other episodes on Law Firm Strategy & Business Design.  #583 – From Survival to Strategy: Scaling Your Law Firm Finances, with Bernadette Harris Apple | Spotify | LTN  #575 – From Overwhelmed Lawyer to Strategic Law Firm Owner, with Chad Fox Apple | Spotify | LTN  #570 – Uncover Your Firm’s Journey with the New Small Firm Scorecard™, with Stephanie Everett Apple | Spotify | LTN  #568 – How to Build a Law Firm You Can Sell, with Victoria L. Collier Apple | Spotify | LTN    Have thoughts about today’s episode? Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X!    If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you.    Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com.    Chapters / Timestamps:   00:00 – Introduction  01:15 – Why This Isn’t About “Starting” a Law Firm  03:45 – The Biggest Myth Lawyers Believe About Firm Ownership  06:50 – Heroics vs. Structure  10:30 – The Three Constraints That Trap Law Firm Owners  12:45 – Every Firm Is Choosing a Business Model (Whether You Realize It or Not)  14:30 – The Three Paths Law Firms Take  18:55 – When Your Goals and Design Don’t Match  20:55 – How Clients Actually Buy Legal Services  23:30 – What Breaks If Demand Doubles  25:00 – Clarity Beats Certainty  29:15 – What to Do in the First 30 Days  33:40 – Where to Go Next

Law school prepares students to think like lawyers, but it often leaves them without a clear picture of what comes next. Zack Glaser sits down with Jocelyn Hardrick to explore how mentorship, pipeline programs, and practical guidance can help first-generation and nontraditional students bridge the gap between legal education and real-world practice.  They unpack the challenges students face when they lack exposure to legal careers, the importance of writing and bar preparation support, and how community and accountability shape confidence during the transition into the profession. The episode highlights how intentional mentorship and community support can reduce uncertainty, build confidence, and create clearer pathways into the legal profession.  Listen to our other episodes on mentorship, mindset, and professional development.   Episode #596 — The Athlete’s Mindset for Lawyers, with Jess Sargus Apple | Spotify | LTN  Episode #592 — Client Care, Culture, and Character: A Framework for Great Leaders, with William O’Neal Apple | Spotify | LTN  Episode #588 — Practice Smarter, Not Harder: 411 Tips for Modern Lawyers, with Jordan Couch Apple | Spotify | LTN  Episode #576 — How Sponsorship, Empathy, and Failure Shape Great Leaders, with Michael Cohen Apple | Spotify | LTN  Have thoughts about today’s episode? Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X!    If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you.    Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com. Links from the episode: https://www.journeytoesquire.com/  Chapters:  00:00 – Introduction  01:45 – Why the Path Into Law Isn’t Clear  06:10 – Meet Jocelyn Hardrick  08:25 – What Journey to Esquire Does  12:40 – First-Generation and Nontraditional Barriers  17:30 – Mentorship vs. Sponsorship  21:55 – Writing, Bar Prep, and Practical Skills  26:40 – Building Confidence Through Community  31:20 – Advice for New and Aspiring Lawyers  34:10 – Closing Thoughts

In episode #598 of the Lawyerist Podcast, learn how Microsoft Copilot can help lawyers work more efficiently inside Microsoft 365—without compromising accuracy, security, or client trust. Zack Glaser talks with Ben Schorr, innovation strategist at Affinity Consulting Group and former Microsoft insider, about how attorneys can move past AI hype and start using Copilot for real, everyday legal work.  Zack and Ben break down how Copilot helps lawyers draft and edit documents, summarize complex files, extract key deadlines, prep for meetings, and manage inbox overload—all while keeping client data protected within Microsoft’s security framework. They clarify where Copilot delivers the most value, where caution is required, and why understanding its limitations is essential to using it effectively. For lawyers curious about AI but unsure where to begin, this episode offers a clear, realistic roadmap for adopting Copilot without compromising accuracy, ethics, or trust.  Listen to our other episodes on  AI, Legal Technology & Practical Innovation in Law Firms:   Rethinking Law Firm Growth in the Age of AI, with Sam Harden Apple | Spotify | LTN  Episode 550: Beyond Content: How AI Is Changing Law Firm Marketing, with Gyi Tsakalakis & Conrad Saam Apple | Spotify | LTN  Episode 543: AI Ethics: What Lawyers Need to Know, with Hilary Gerzhoy Apple | Spotify | LTN  Episode 497: Real Talk About Artificial Intelligence in Your Office, with Ben Schorr Apple | Spotify | LTN    Have thoughts about today’s episode? Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X!   If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you.  Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com.    Chapters / Timestamps:   00:00 – Introduction  08:43 – Meet Ben Schorr  11:08 – What Copilot Is (and Why Lawyers Care)  13:27 – Security, Privacy, and Client Data  16:47 – Drafting Legal Documents With Copilot  18:36 – Schorr’s Law: Always Review AI Output  20:30 – Editing, Fact-Checking, and Improving Existing Work  23:57 – Summarizing Documents and Extracting Key Info  28:49 – Brainstorming, Personas, and Strategy Testing  34:34 – Agentic AI: What’s Possible (and What Isn’t)