Episode 218 Part 1: Gina D’Onofrio’s Tips for Choosing a Qualified Independent Appraiser

What you’ll learn in this episode: How to use Antique Jewelry University to identify maker’s marks and find out when your jewelry was made. Why access to more (and better) information has made interest in antique jewelry explode. What characteristics Suzanne looks for when evaluating antique jewelry. Why buyers should beware of lab-grown diamonds in vintage jewelry. Why modern diamonds and manufacturing techniques can’t compare to the materials and skills used by jewelers in the past. About Suzanne Martinez Suzanne Martinez is the co-owner of Lang Antiques, a San Francisco-based shop that offers the largest collection of fine vintage engagement rings and antique jewels to be found under one roof. She is a highly credentialed senior gemologist, jewelry appraiser, jewelry historian and the curator for Lang’s collection. She actively buys from sellers all over the world. Suzanne is also the founder of Lang’s Antique Jewelry University. Suzanne started collecting rocks and minerals as a child, and by the time she was 13 knew that the jewelry world was her passion. For fun she makes enameled jewelry and studies natural history and Latin American cultural anthropology. Images courtesy of Lang Antique & Estate Jewelry available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional resources: Website Suzanne’s LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Antique Jewelry University Lang Antique and Estate Jewelry is the prime destination for vintage jewelry lovers, but you don’t have to be in San Francisco to take advantage of the store’s services. Lang ships jewelry globally and offers Antique Jewelry University, a completely free online guide to maker’s marks and jewelry history. Jewelry historian and Lang co-owner Suzanne Martinez joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Lang curates its huge collection of antique engagement rings; the history of Antique Jewelry University; and what she looks for when evaluating an antique piece. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, we're talking with Suzanne Martinez of Lang Antiques in San Francisco. Welcome back. Do you manufacture yourselves? Does Lang manufacture? Suzanne: We have what we call our Lange line. Sometimes a piece of jewelry will come in and it's worn out. It doesn't have another livelihood, so we can't guarantee it to a customer. I'm talking about a ring in particular. We have, probably for more than 20 years, been making hand-fabricated rings that are in the style of or influenced by a real ring design. They're very similar to the older pieces, and we hand fabricate them. In the last few years, we've had a greater demand. People don't want to pay for the cost of having a ring hand fabricated like the originals. It's very expensive when a mounting costs more than the diamond you're setting in it, and that's not unusual. So, we have done some work with partners that do CAD that have helped us create our designs in CAD, but we do very little of that. 90% of what we do, if we're going to take an old stone and remake a ring out of it, is hand fabricated. We try and stick to the tenets of the old jewelry that we sell. Sharon: Do people come in and say, “Can you repolish this stone?” Maybe they have an old ring, a vintage ring, and the stone is beat up but they want it repolished. Suzanne: That's a really good question. The stones that get beat up are things that are not a diamond. You have to be pretty hard on a diamond to beat it up or to chip it. But sapphires, if they've been worn for 15, 20 years even, they're going to have some abrasions on them. When we buy a piece of jewelry, that’s one of the things we do. We will remove those stones and repolish them before we resell them. But as far as a customer coming in with their own personal collection, we don't have an in-house lapidary, so we don't do that. There are people that specialize in and help people refurbish like that, but it's not something we offer because we don't do it in-house. Sharon: Was your business affected by COVID? Suzanne: It was actually positively affected. I think people had more time. We know they had more time at home, and I think people did a lot more screen time. We had a lot more visitors to our website, and people got very excited about antique jewelry, especially colored stones and things they could wear on a Zoom call so people could see their jewelry, like a pair of earrings or a pendant. Business increased because of that, which was very good. I think the awareness grew. People found out about antique jewelry more. Look at Instagram. Instagram is different than it was three years ago, but there were a lot of people spending a lot of time on Instagram and other social media and just watching, because it's eye candy. People come to our website for the same reason. Who doesn't like to look at beautiful jewelry? I just told this story to a customer that came in yesterday. It just came to mind. We used to keep our jewelry in our window. We used to have probably a thousand pieces in the window, tons of jewelry just packed in. I'd watch people walk by. They'd stop in the window, and then they'd walk away with a big smile on their face because jewelry makes people happy. It's beautiful. I think people gained an appreciation during that time period. Sharon: Did you see an increase in sales because people didn't have things to spend the money on? Suzanne: Well, they weren't traveling. They weren't going out to eat, so they were buying jewelry. We were lucky because part of our business is an e-commerce business, and it's something we've done for a long time. I think some of the jewelers that didn't have that ability to interact with their clients in the same way probably didn't gain from it. But it was good for our business. Sharon: When you had a thousand pieces or a lot of jewelry in the window, did you take it out every night? Suzanne: Oh yeah, every single piece. We had our windows designed so they were modular, so you could take a whole tray of jewelry out and put it on carts and take it to our walls to sell it. We made it work because if you had to take out one at a time, that would take you another couple of hours. Sharon: Do you have local people, people in San Francisco or in Northern California, who come to the store just to look at the window or to look and see what's new? Suzanne: It's really interesting, because when people come into our store, they're either going to have an appointment or we're a destination. They know who we are before they come. They might be coming to see what's new. They might be coming because they have a particular piece of jewelry they want to look at, and sometimes it's just part of their trip to San Francisco. They always come to Lang. Sharon: Do you sell things besides rings, or is it all rings or mostly rings? Suzanne: No, I would say rings are probably half of what we sell, colored stone and diamond rings, then all other kinds of jewelry. People wear brooches still, believe it or not. We sell a lot of pins and brooches. You don't see people wearing them as much, but we're bringing that back. We like them. They're beautiful, small forms of art, you know? Sharon: I was intrigued because you used the word collectors. I looked at the store and it was all rings. As I was scrolling through, it seemed like one on every two pages was something that wasn't a ring. Suzanne: Well, you have to filter, just like any website you're on. We have filters set up so that you can choose how you look at different jewelry. If you want to look at rings, if you want to dive in and just look at sapphire rings, if you want to look at Art Deco sapphire rings, you can do all of those things. You can look at all of our jewelry in one page, which is a few thousand pieces that are online. That's kind of an ominous task. So, filtering is a good way to use our website to find what you're looking for, or just to look. Like I said, it's eye candy. Sharon: How often do you get things that might not be a ring that you would put on the website or people come to the store to see? Suzanne: If you watch our What's New page, you'll see that we sell more things and post more things that are not rings. Rings are maybe 30 to 40% of what we put on our website. There are pendants, earrings, brooches, necklaces, a little bit of everything. Sharon: In reading the description of your store, that it’s world renowned, it seems like you have everything related to vintage engagement rings or vintage rings. Suzanne: That is what we're known for. We have over 800 diamond rings. That's a large collection of vintage diamond rings. We've curated our collection very carefully over the years. People buy from Lang because all of our rings have been fully restored. For example, the prongs are not worn down anymore. We will replace and put new prongs on the ring. If the diamond has a small chip, we remove the diamond and we'll repair the chip before we put it back in. All of our diamonds of one carat or larger, we send to the GIA for a lab report. We do a lot of work to make sure that the ring we're selling has all the necessary information for a customer to make a decision on whether they want to buy it. When you look at an antique diamond, it has a different kind of beauty than a modern round brilliant. Most antique diamonds have a little bit of color to them. They are a J or a K color very commonly, and you have to kind of throw out the standard of the modern round brilliant-cut because you can't compare them. An old diamond has a different way of reacting with light. It breaks the light up into spectral colors more. It's just a playful, beautiful diamond, so it doesn't look like every other round brilliant-cut diamond. Each one is hand cut and unique. To me, that's a starting point of what makes an antique ring so special. Then you get the way that the ring is manufactured. They're hand fabricated, and die striking is a very high-quality way of making a ring. It started because platinum was an expensive metal in the past. Now its price per ounce is less than gold. It's still harder to work in, but it was always the most expensive metal. It was always 10 times the cost of gold. Because of this, up until 1920, there were no white metals other than silver. White gold hadn't been patented. It was patented probably in 1918, 1919, but it didn't get into manufacturing techniques until 1920. If you see somebody that says it's a Victorian piece of jewelry and it's white gold, that is the wrong description. There is no way. There was no white gold manufacturing in the 19th century. 1920 is the demarcating line. After that, they were able to offer white metal jewelry, which was popular in Art Deco, black and white jewelry. This could be offered to people because they were die striking white gold instead of hand fabricating platinum. It still was a high-quality product, but they were using the less expensive white gold versus the platinum. It also justified using a quarter carat diamond, whereas to hand fabricate a platinum ring with a quarter carat, you don't see that. Well, of what survived. That would be a rarity, to see something under a half carat. Sharon: Do you have to explain this to a couple that comes in looking for a ring with a modern diamond that was a third of the price or half the price? Suzanne: Usually, people that are already interested in vintage and antique, older rings, they're coming for a different reason. They've already decided this is what they want. They're not saying, “Well, why shouldn't I buy a round brilliant-cut diamond?” But we answer all their questions, and not everybody needs to do a deep dive. If you're someone who has no background in the jewelry business, to tell them about 1920 and die striking and all that, that may be a little too much information for them. We have it and we're there to give it to them, but we let the customer guide their own journey and ask the questions. We find it's a lot easier for them to manage. Does that make sense? Sharon: Yeah. Suzanne: And just to clarify another thing, the man doesn't come in and buy the ring that often. The man and the woman come in together. It's very common for that. And we have women coming in together and men coming in together. We have all kinds of couples that are buying antique and vintage jewelry. Sharon: I know how detailed it can be to look at a vintage and everything you're talking about. I can see myself saying, “Enough already. That's all I need to know.” So, you're a jewelry historian. The Antique Jewelry University was already somewhat started by Christie Romero, but what motivated you to continue to develop it into such an in-depth resource? Suzanne: Something that I have always done for myself personally, for my staff, with the GIA alumni, it's all continuing education. Whenever I go to the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show, I go to as many educational presentations as possible. I've been involved with the GIA Alumni for over 30 years. We bring speakers to our local chapter and continue their education and elevate people so they know more. There are so many topics as far as jewelry is concerned that it's just fascinating. You have gem cutters, you have people that manufacture, you have jewelers. What's your design process? There are so many ways to learn. We have miners that come and speak to us and talk about their journey into the earth and how they extract certain kinds of gems. That's just barely scratching the surface. Continuing education is so important to me personally. In order for me to buy jewelry and understand it, I had to learn. How is anyone else going to understand my process so they are confident to buy from Lang? It's all part and parcel. It's all education. Someone comes in and, like you said, we do educate them to the degree that they want to be educated. All this information is free. Antique Jewelry University, we've never charged for it. We have more than one full-time staff person working on AJU every day. It's something that we do to give back to our community. It’s very important to me. Sharon: How do you promote it? How do you let people know about it? Jewelry organizations I’ve been in, we know about it, but how do you let the larger world know it's available? Suzanne: It's kind of an organic process. We share it with our customers in every way we can. I usually speak at least once a year. I'll speak somewhere, or I will go to a conference and set up a table. My partner in doing this is Starla Turner. We have a table, we'll bring different rings, we'll have a card on each ring and say, “Here's a loupe. Look at it, and this is what you're going to look for.” Then we have Antique Jewelry University running on a computer, and we have a big poster. We want people to know about it, but most of the people that use it are in the trade. How do you educate somebody as to what they are buying? Is it authentic? That is a hard thing to do with the public because they don't have the basic knowledge to start with. So, Antique Jewelry University has many levels. You could be a novice and you just want to come in and find out when a piece was made. My grandmother gave me a locket. When do you think that locket was made? There's a place for you to find out that information. Then if you want to dive a little deeper, you can. What's the history of lockets? Or someone who is a historian themselves, they might want to add to the knowledge they have, or share with us the knowledge they have to help us create a deeper knowledge base on a particular topic. Think of it as tiered information. We have people come to us, whether they’re shopping on our website, or they've found out about us through Instagram or Facebook or Pinterest and they want to find out more information, they go to Antique Jewelry University. Sharon: Could I come to your store and have your staff look at a piece of jewelry and tell me what they think it is? Suzanne: Absolutely. That's half the fun of coming to Lang. You get to really look at these pieces. It's kind of like a museum. You get to look at pieces and they’re for sale. You can touch them. You can have someone tell you about them. It's fun. It's really fun. Sharon: Why did you continue it after Christie passed away? Suzanne: Christie just did the timeline. That's what she started. I did the glossary of terms, and she gifted that to us before she died. We included that. I had already started the glossary. I met Christie. The two of us became friends. I call her one of my people. This is why you go to jewelry shows. This is why you go to gem shows. These are your people that understand and have the same passion that you do. She was very passionate. I was really grateful that she was in my life and that we had this part of our journey together. Sharon: And you just continued adding to it when she wasn't available to do it. Suzanne: Yeah. Christie passed about 20 years ago. We've been adding content to Antique Jewelry University since the day we started. I think it launched in 2020ish. That’s when we launched the website. Sharon: Did you ever think it would be such a resource or so big? Suzanne: Oh, no. It just kind of unfolded. At first it was just, how do you share a library? Let's just add some things so that people have a resource to find out about what they're buying. It was more for our customers. Then we realized there's a huge community out there, whether they're customers or not, and we all benefit from each other. We're a community of people, and everyone that works at Lang is passionate about jewelry. I have gemologists on staff that are just—my friend Starla I was talking about, she's a black belt gemologist. We have Mary, who is an incredible historian that continues to write articles for Antique Jewelry University. The head of our marketing is Nicole Corsini, and she's a gemologist as well as, if you pick up the phone and want to talk to her about a piece of jewelry that you're interested in buying, she will tell you everything about it because she's got the history. She understands marketing and how to present information to you. Everybody has something that they are special in as well as the passion. When you shop at Lang, you're shopping with passionate people that just love what they do. I'm very, very blessed to have all these people. It's a really special organization. Sharon: It seems like it. I didn't know it was so extensive. I knew of Lang and the Antique Jewelry University, but I didn't realize it was so in-depth and extensive. Suzanne, thank you for being here today. We really enjoyed it. We learned a lot. thank you very much. Suzanne: It was my pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you, Sharon. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you’ll learn in this episode: How to use Antique Jewelry University to identify maker’s marks and find out when your jewelry was made. Why access to more (and better) information has made interest in antique jewelry explode. What characteristics Suzanne looks for when evaluating antique jewelry. Why buyers should beware of lab-grown diamonds in vintage jewelry. Why modern diamonds and manufacturing techniques can’t compare to the materials and skills used by jewelers in the past. About Suzanne Martinez Suzanne Martinez is the co-owner of Lang Antiques, a San Francisco-based shop that offers the largest collection of fine vintage engagement rings and antique jewels to be found under one roof. She is a highly credentialed senior gemologist, jewelry appraiser, jewelry historian and the curator for Lang’s collection. She actively buys from sellers all over the world. Suzanne is also the founder of Lang’s Antique Jewelry University. Suzanne started collecting rocks and minerals as a child, and by the time she was 13 knew that the jewelry world was her passion. For fun she makes enameled jewelry and studies natural history and Latin American cultural anthropology. Images courtesy of Lang Antique & Estate Jewelry available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional resources: Website Suzanne’s LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Antique Jewelry University Lang Antique and Estate Jewelry is the prime destination for vintage jewelry lovers, but you don’t have to be in San Francisco to take advantage of the store’s services. Lang ships jewelry globally and offers Antique Jewelry University, a completely free online guide to maker’s marks and jewelry history. Jewelry historian and Lang co-owner Suzanne Martinez joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Lang curates its huge collection of antique engagement rings; the history of Antique Jewelry University; and what she looks for when evaluating an antique piece. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, we're talking with Suzanne Martinez of Lang Antiques in San Francisco. I should say that's where the brick and mortar is, but they sell all over the world. Lang Antiques is the country's, if not the world's, largest purveyor of vintage engagement rings. They have an unparalleled collection. Suzanne herself is a jewelry historian, among other things. Lang Antiques has developed an online Antique Jewelry University. Researchers from all over the world use this as a resource to research the history of a piece of jewelry. If you're interested in jewelry, then this makes a very good read. I was looking at it last night again, and I didn't have any piece of jewelry in mind, but it was very interesting to read. I’ve heard Suzanne give a talk at ASJRA, another major jewelry organization, and I’ve heard Suzanne give talks identifying a piece of jewelry, and she goes into tremendous detail. There's no way that you could not look at a piece of jewelry and know what you should be looking for. She'll tell us more about Antique Jewelry University. She'll also tell us how over the years, the store has become world renowned. They have done this by developing an unparalleled collection of jewelry, a reputation for professional expertise, and the longevity of this jewelry store. Suzanne, welcome to the program. Suzanne: I'm happy to be here. Good morning. Sharon: Can you tell us where the Lang in Lang Antiques and Estate Jewelry comes from? Suzanne: We bought the store from Jarmilla Lang in 1991. She was the original owner of the store and a jewelry historian herself way before her time. She had worked in Europe in museums, so she had this breadth of knowledge of decorative arts and jewelry that she brought to San Francisco with her when she opened this store. Sharon: Wow. There aren’t any certificates as a jewelry historian. It’s just knowledge, right? Knowledge and other people saying, “Well, you're a jewelry historian.” I presume you're a gemologist also. You look at so many rings. That’s very interesting. What do you say to those who would never buy a piece of jewelry online because they have to feel it and see it and all of that? Suzanne: Like you said, I am a gemologist and I have been for 45 years. Part of the gemological training is learning how to be forensic with what you’re looking at. Whether it's a gemstone or a piece of jewelry, if you are buying from someone who is knowledgeable enough to understand what they're looking at and share that information with you, that gives a huge degree of trust. I think that's one thing that stands out for Lang. We have a really good understanding of whether it’s a real piece of antique jewelry. How is it made? Why is this design important? Who else made this design popular over time and why? We like to give tidbits of history with every piece we sell. I do call myself a jewelry historian, but by no means do I know everything. I have a library. I haven't read every single book in my library. However, if a piece comes in and I look at it, I know which book to look for to find a reference about it. And there are many jewelry historians that I look up to. It's a community. Sharon: If I see a piece of jewelry on your website and I want to know more about it, or I want to know if I can trust this outfit If I don't know it, do I call you or send you the piece? Can you explain the process? Suzanne: If you want to know more about your own piece of jewelry, that's why we have Antique Jewelry University. It's a place where you can do your own research. We have a huge database of hallmarks because one thing that we probably get the most inquiries about is, “Who made this piece of jewelry? Here's the mark I have.” We refer them to this database we have because it's pretty impressive. Auction houses and appraisers and people all over use that database. Every piece of jewelry we have with a maker's mark, we do our best to research it. It’s not always easy. It’s not always possible. Then we photograph it, and we include it on our website. We try and add a little snippet about who the jeweler was, where they were located, and what years they did their manufacturing. You have to match when a piece was made because some there are false marks, too. If a piece of jewelry is marked 585, which is the percentage for 14-karat gold, it was not made in the 19th century. They didn't mark jewelry like that. There is that forensic bit, too. Hopefully we can help people down that path. We call it the jewelry journey. We do. It’s finding out when their jewelry was made. If they want to find out more about a piece of jewelry we have on our website that they might be interested in buying, we invite inquiries. We talk to them over the phone or by email, whatever they're comfortable with, and try and satisfy all their questions about it and add information as well. Sharon: Did you develop the online Antique Jewelry University yourself? Suzanne: When we started our website, that was back in 1998. We were kind of early adapters. There were no e-commerce platforms at that time, so we developed our own e-commerce platform. By the early 2000s, we were actually selling online. When we launched our website, Antique Jewelry University was a 1000-word glossary. I had been collecting terms. Christie Romero was an incredible jewelry historian. She was here in Southern California, and she taught jewelry history. I don't remember which college it was down there, but she would put on symposiums and bring speakers in. Anyway, incredible woman. She started a glossary of terms and a timeline that, when she passed—unfortunately, she's no longer with us—she gifted to Antique Jewelry University. So, between her information and my glossary of terms, we started Antique Jewelry University and just built upon it. Sharon: Do you continue to build upon it if you see a new term or something you haven't included before? Suzanne: Absolutely. We are always researching. We have a woman who does a lot of our writing. Her name is Mary Borchert, and that is her job, just doing research. We have quite a library of reference books, so everything that we put on Antique Jewelry University is fully referenced. We notate that at the bottom of all our articles as well. We're not just copying it from somewhere else on the internet, which a lot of people do, and a lot of people copy Antique Jewelry University. That can be a compliment, but at the same time, we do all of our own work. Sharon: That's impressive, considering how in-depth it is. Just look at it online. Why do you think that the interest in antique jewelry has grown so much in the past few years? Suzanne: I think there's a lot of transparency. A lot of people are able to access information because of the advent of social media. Just think of all the people that are sharing their own personal information. We are on all the different social media channels as well, and I've seen them grow. If you have an interest in a particular type, like Art Nouveau jewelry, you can find Art Nouveau jewelers that have Instagram or Pinterest and look at beautiful jewelry and learn about it. In the past, when I started as a jeweler, if you didn't have a library, there was no place to go. You went to a museum, and that's where you found your information. Now I think it's a rich time for people to access information. I think we also visually see antique and vintage jewelry worn on the red carpet, at the Met Gala, and we see jewelry that is inspired by antique jewelry. You have famous houses. Everybody knows who Cartier is. You have the most beautiful antique Cartier jewelry, and then you have people that have copied it. That's a big tribute, but you don't always know if it’s a Cartier or it isn’t. That's why it's important who you buy it from. But at the same time, it's permeated everything, antique and vintage styles. Whether it's somebody creating something new with a nod to something vintage or it's truly vintage, I think it's just what people see today. It's massive. Sharon: Your selection of engagement rings is massive. Have you seen that grow in the past few years, the interest and the couples coming in and wanting to see your vintage only? Suzanne: Because that's what we specialize in—we specialize in antique diamonds, so our vintage and antique jewelry is why people come to buy from us. They understand that it’s socially responsible, it’s recycled. That's one of the reasons they buy it. They also want a little bit of history. They want something that no one else has, something very unique. They want something that has a beautiful design and is executed in a way that jewelry isn't executed today. You get a beautiful Edwardian jewel, no one can make a piece of jewelry like that in today's world. They just don't. The jewelry today is made on CAD. Very few jewelers are hand fabricators or can fabricate something that delicate. If you want the real deal, you're going to shop at a store like Lang.  Sharon: What happens if you get a call from somebody outside of the U.S. or even on the other side of the U.S. that wants a piece? They want a vintage engagement ring, but they can't come to the store. What do you do? Suzanne: Actually, more of our customers are outside of our store and shop just online because we have jewelry that no one else has. Where are they going to find it if they don't find it from a store like Lang? We have a very large selection. It's not unusual for a customer to narrow their choice down to two or three. Sometimes we just send them all three and they can try them on in the comfort of their own home. They have a period of time which they can return them. We make it work. Sharon: I thought it was really interesting that you had that, the one, two, three. Maybe it's the person who writes about the antique jewelry. The one, two, three of what you look for to know more about a piece of jewelry. That was like first looking at the hallmarks. I looked at it last night but I don’t remember what’s next. Suzanne: For a private individual, when they're trying to identify their own jewelry, style is really important. But for an individual, if you have family history and you know that piece was your grandmother's, at least you have a date within which to start. If you're just out in the world and you identify a piece of jewelry that you love but you don't really know how old it is, that's a little more difficult. How do you know it doesn't match the type of manufacturing techniques that were done when, say, an Art Nouveau piece of jewelry was made, versus something that is made today in the Art Nouveau style? That is something that's a little harder. That's why you need to rely on an appraiser, someone to help you with that. But when I personally look at a piece of jewelry, how I select a piece of jewelry for our store, style is really important. Good design is always good design. Bad design is obvious, and it just doesn't make a great piece of jewelry. The techniques of manufacture have to be right. It has to be in excellent condition. There's a lot of things that I look at that go in the background, that not everybody sees when they look at a piece. They see a beautiful piece of jewelry when they're shopping, but the backstory is it has to be in excellent condition. It has to be correct. Lang is very careful about letting people know when, for example, cufflinks have been out of style for quite some time, and a lot of the cufflinks that were made circa 1900 to 1930 are small. They're very small. They're really too small for men to wear. Men don't wear them, and they're very delicate. What we do is convert them to earrings. We make the most beautiful earrings out of these cufflinks that otherwise would lose their livelihood, and we've been very successful with doing that. But we tell people these were converted from a pair of earrings, whether it's Art Nouveau or an Art Deco cuff link. Those are the kinds of things that if we make a change, we tell people about it. Sharon: If somebody wants to sell jewelry to you or to another place, let's say they take their family collection and show it to you, or they take it out of the safe deposit box and decide they want the jewelry to be out in the world, what do you say? Have you ever turned people away? Suzanne: Absolutely. What if something was made in the last 25 years and its value is gold? It's something that is mass produced and there's lots and lots of them made and it's not in style anymore. It deserves to be recycled into something more beautiful again. In all pieces, it's back to that design, quality, authenticity and condition. Those are the things that I look for. I wish I could say I could buy every single piece that comes through my door, but realistically we have a large collection. Let's say right now I have 30 hardstone cameos. If someone brought me a hardstone cameo today, I would have to make sure that it exceeded my current collection to add it to my collection, or it has to be something that I feel customers are buying right now. The market goes up and down. Retro is a little soft right now. I like it. It's beautiful. The designs are gorgeous, but I'm not adding to our retro collection because we have a pretty extensive retro collection right now. Those are the kinds of things where sometimes I will say no. But usually individual, one-of-a-kind pieces of jewelry, that's what we're looking for. Sharon: Can you recognize if something is one of a kind when it’s presented to you? I know you think about things and what you have, but do you research the piece? Do you look at it under the microscope? Suzanne: Some pieces definitely need to be researched, but most pieces are jewelry where maybe more than one of them has been made. In our diamond ring collection, for example, during the 1920s and 1930s, a lot of those rings were die struck. They were made in a die and many of them were made, but very few survive. In all my years of buying and selling vintage engagement rings and antique engagement rings, maybe I've seen a handful that were the same as one I had already seen. That’s because the piece may be struck on a die, but then its hand pierced, its hand finished. There may be a garland or small milgrain, or it may have small diamonds added to it and this one doesn't have diamonds added to it. Each one has a handprint of a person on it, the work master or the person that does the engraving or the setter. Each one has its own imprint, so they still tend to look one of a kind. But knowing the underlying structure of something is still one of the ways we determine when it was made. You know when you see a die struck ring, that's the period of time within which it was made. Sharon: Do people bring lab-grown diamonds in? I know they're not vintage, but do you ever see lab-grown diamonds? Suzanne: I think the secondary market for lab grown diamonds hasn’t really hit yet because they've only been super popular in the marketplace for three years. That's about it. And their prices have already plummeted on the retail marketplace. It’s not something we would ever buy because they’re not old, but it is something that we have to be careful of, and I think people have to be careful of. I have heard of jewelers that are buying low quality synthetic diamonds. They're buying a round brilliant and they’re recutting it to European standard because they have inclusions and might have some off color, then they're putting them in an old mounting. People that buy scrap end up with lots and lots of mountings, and sometimes they just resell them on the secondary market through dealers. So, here you have the possibility of someone setting a synthetic diamond recut as an antique diamond into an old mounting, so buyer beware. That's one of my dilemmas, too, that I have to be very careful about. I would never want to buy that. That's when the microscope comes in handy, and that's when we use outside laboratories like the Gemological Institute of America to check the stones before we buy them, just to make sure they are correct. In our laboratory, we don't have all the equipment necessary to confirm that it is 100% synthetic or not. We have separation techniques, but a larger laboratory is able to do a lot more than we can. Sharon: A lot of these lab-grown diamonds have inscriptions and numbers or something that identifies it. Do you look for anything like that? Suzanne: If the GIA has looked at that diamond, they always inscribe them. But a diamond cutter can polish that off in a matter of 10 minutes. If you do see it, great, but it's not something that we've even seen. We don't buy round brilliant-cut diamonds. We've never bought round brilliant-cut diamonds. That's not what we buy and sell. Because we specialize in the older ones, like I said, I'm very careful about what I buy and I'm on the lookout for these supposed recuts. We know they're out there for smaller diamonds because we see them in reproductions, the European cuts and single cuts. Primarily the European cuts are cut with what we call an open culet. Instead of coming to a point on the bottom, they have a facet there, and the facets in the contemporary cuts for small diamonds have a really big open facet. That's a generalization, but it's one of those things. If you see all the other characteristics that make you think it's not an old ring and you see those stones and they're perfectly calibrated, you can kind of say, “Yes, that's a reproduction, and this is why.” Sharon: Do you or people who work at the store go out to trade shows or antique jewelry shows and look for merchandise to resell? Suzanne: That's one of the things I do. Most of the jewelry that we buy and sell comes right in our door. People send me a picture of it and we strike up a conversation, and they mail it to us or send it FedEx or however we decide they're going to ship it for our consideration so we can see it in person. I do not buy anything unless I see it in person. Another really good reason to go to trade shows is to do price research. I go to Tucson Gem and Mineral Show every year because the prices and availability of different gems change. It changes from year to year, and if you're buying a beautiful old sapphire, you want to make sure you're paying the right price for it, especially today as prices have gone up significantly, especially in emeralds, rubies and sapphires. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you’ll learn in this episode: Why working with jewelry designers is part business, part therapy. Why the jewelry industry is picking up its pace to match the fashion industry, and why this trend might backfire. Why customer feedback on comfort and wearability is essential for jewelry brands. How Lionel defines success for his jewelry clients. What caused so many fashion houses to develop fine jewelry lines in the last few years, and what this trend means for the industry.  About Lionel Geneste Lionel Geneste is a fashion and luxury industry veteran, having worked for John Hardy, Givenchy, Catherine Malandrino and Randolph Duke in various capacities, from global marketing to communications and merchandising. He is also the founder of the gift-giving service b.Sophisticated. Born in Tehran to French parents, Geneste grew up as a modern nomad: Cairo, Istanbul, Lagos, Beirut, Paris are just a few places he once called home. And so he acquired an eclectic eye, at an early age, for the refined and urbane—only further encouraged by his clotheshorse mother and her like-minded friends. Additional Resources Website Instagram Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: How does an independent jewelry brand get noticed? For some lucky jewelers, the secret is Lionel Geneste. Lionel is a jewelry strategist and advisor who has launched iconic brands, shown new collections at Paris couture week, and gotten small jewelry artists into top stores. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the jewelry industry compares to the fashion industry; the trends, opportunities and challenges jewelers are facing today; and how he chooses his clients (and why he has to believe in their work). Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, I'm talking with Lionel Geneste. He's an independent strategist in the jewelry industry. He does this after 15 years in fashion, so he knows fashion and jewelry. Welcome back. Let’s say people haven't seen the lines of these jewels or the independent jewelers that you represent. Do they say, “Oh, I haven't seen this. I want it for my store”? Lionel: Right. They do that. Everybody has access to everything pretty much now, with Instagram or even stores posting on their websites. I tend to have a collection or a certain number of pieces with me, and then I distribute it amongst the stores I work with. I still give the list of everything I have within the U.S. So, if a client has seen something and it's not within their store, I will send it to them to present to the client. It's very interesting. Once the client knows the brand, they really go for it. They dig into the Instagram to see other pieces. I think you have to be very fluid and flexible, and you have to be able to move around your jewelry if you want to accommodate your plan. Sharon: What are the first things you advise people, your new clients, on? Is it to get involved with social media? Lionel: I know we all hear the stories of people selling off Instagram. I think the brick and mortar is still—at a certain level, we're talking about jewelry. It’s different below $8,000. It's very rare when someone buys it from a website. Even a website like Moda Operandi, for example, if there is a piece— Sharon: Which one? Lionel: Moda Operandi. It's a website that was launched on the idea of doing trunk shows on there. For example, they will very often ask for the piece to be sent so they can show it to their clients. It's rare that they buy it directly off the website. I think for pieces that are $500 to $2,000, maybe $3,000, but above a certain price, the clients want to see it, feel it. Sharon: And touch it. When you look for new clients, what do you look for? What would you consider new? Would you consider if the way they make it is new? Lionel: There are there a few things. If I take them, for example, Mike Joseph is very interesting. He has great technique. The jewelry is going to be well made. He made this entire collection of flowers in titanium, but he used the reverse side of titanium to have it as a matte finish, as opposed to a very glossy one. I think with this collection, when he was at couture, he won two prizes. So, I think he is both innovative and has great technique. Vishal, I like his take on traditional Indian jewelry, which has a lot of gold and stones, but he makes it much more sleek. The thing is not to see the metal. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the portrait cut. Sharon: No, I’m not. Lionel: The portrait cut is a slab of diamond. It's the Maharaja who built the Taj Mahal who actually asked his jeweler to do this type of slab of diamonds to put on top of their portraits so it would bring a shine to the miniature. So, it's a technique, and Vishal does rings and earrings. I think that's an interesting new way. I'm always looking for people who bring something new to the table. Sharon: You mentioned the perspective. How could their perspective be new? When you talk to other art jewelers, sometimes you look at a piece and it looks normal, then they tell you the stories behind it and you understand it better. Lionel: True. You can always try to understand the story. When you see Vishal make some of these pieces, I think you almost don't need the explanation. You see that there is something new there. I'm not saying it's wrong to try to have the story behind it, but I kind of like when—I’ve had numerous jewelers come in. They're coming to me and showing me things, and the thing I hear the most is, “I couldn't find this on the market.” And I look at the pieces, and I'm like, “I can bring you in 10 stores when there's exactly the same thing.” And I think, “No.” Sharon: So it's their technique with the materials they use. Lionel: The technique, the material, the inspiration. With Vishal it’s the reinterpretation of traditional Indian jewelry, but it's still very modern and light. Sylvie has more inspiration from literature or drawings. She goes to museums to find her inspiration. Sharon: I was just thinking, do you represent people who are goldsmiths themselves making the jewelry, as opposed to them designing it and they have a goldsmith make it? Lionel: Mike and Vishal have their own factories, so they are really following from the beginning, from the start. Sylvie has an atelier. She draws. Sharon: Were you a maker of jewelry? Lionel: No. Never. I’ve always liked jewelry, but I was never a jewelry maker. Sharon: Have you learned over the years how something is made? Lionel: Yes. I've learned more about the stones. I’ve learned more about the techniques. It's important to sell something, as you said earlier, to bring the most information. People are really curious today about how it’s made and the story behind it. Sharon: No matter who your client is, are they interested in the way it's made? Do they ask you questions? Lionel: There are different profiles. People who just respond to the look of it are not curious, and it depends on the jewelry itself. With Vishal, because of this new way and this new cut of diamond, people are asking. It's always interesting to get the background on it because there is a new historical background. Mike, for example, with his flowers connection, people were really intrigued by the use of titanium and how it was not used traditionally. So, yes, you get questions on that. Sharon: How often do you see something new that you haven't seen before? Is it once a year? Lionel: It's rare, actually, when you see people who are bringing something really new, a new proposal. Some people are doing stuff in a great way. Not everything has to be groundbreaking, and I get that. I go to couture every year, so I kind of scout, but just for myself. I like to see what's going on. That's not where I'm going to have a new client or anything. It's interesting to me to see what's new. Sometimes I see someone, and I refer them to all the stores, saying, “You should go and see that brand. It’s really cool. It's new.” Sharon: Do you advise a store to go look at the different jewelry? Lionel: Yeah, I would, even if I don’t work with them. I think stores appreciate that I do that. I think the one thing I'm known for is taking on brands that are different and unique. When I point out someone that I think is great, they will listen. Sharon: Do you only work with people who work in gold or emeralds? You mentioned John Hardy. He only works in silver. Lionel: No. For John Hardy, I went for the one-of-a-kind collection that was very stone oriented. No, I don't. The next big thing I did, I worked with Hearts on Fire, which was kind of relaunching and just hired a new designer. That was very interesting, to work with a big company. The idea of bringing this new designer on and kind of starting from scratch was an interesting thing. We worked on opening different stores and more classic, more bridal. That was an interesting strategy to implement. Sharon: Did you advise them of a designer or did you walk in and they introduced you to a new designer? Lionel: They already had the designer in mind, so we looked at the collection. They asked me about their archive and what I thought they should bring back on. I think my background with fashion and jewelry always interests people because they know I still have a foot in the fashion industry in a way. Sharon: If somebody is in the fashion industry now, can they segue?  How can they segue to doing what you're doing if they got tired of fashion? Lionel: I think I know people who did the transition from fashion to jewelry. In the end, it’s the same actors. In the press and the stores, it's the same people, except for the jewelry stores. But if you talk about all the concept stores that carry jewelry as well, it's easy to do. It's the same work, basically. Sharon: So, they wouldn't be getting away from that. Do you do pop-ups? They have become popular here. Lionel: They do. I don't necessarily do pop-ups. They call it differently. For example, Vishal did something at Bergdorf called the Residency. We were in for three months, and it was very successful. It is now going to be permanent for Vishal. We’ll be at Bergdorf all the time. I think the model of trunk shows is a bit overused. It's kind of difficult to make typical trunk shows today. Again, in a certain world, once you’re at a certain price point, some stores are doing a lot of them, and it's the same people that you're soliciting over and over. There's only so much you can do. Sharon: With Vishal, what do you consider successful? You said he was successful in this residency. Was that Vishal? Lionel: Vishal. The brand is called VAK. Sharon: What was successful? What was the purpose of the residency? Lionel: The jewelry is very well-made. It's a beautiful product and not terribly expensive. I think the proposal is that the value is great, and it was new. It's a new look. The salespeople were excited about it, and I think they really reached out to their clients. That's what made it successful in the end. Sharon: You say now he's there permanently. Lionel: Yes. Sharon: He has what, a cabinet? Lionel: Yeah, a vitrine. There’s a vitrine now in the salon. Sharon: Do you ever have to pay to have prominence? Lionel: No. Sharon: What are your favorite things to sell? Lionel: I like two things. I like rings, and I like earrings. Sylvie Corbelin has a quote that I always liked. She’ll say that earrings are a gift for the other. You don't see it on yourself, but it's the people who see you, see the earrings. My mother, for example, would never go out without earrings. She would put on a pair of earrings to match, and it was for her to feel dressed. She didn’t feel that she was dressed if she was not wearing earrings. And I like big cocktail rings. Sharon: What kind of jewelry do you like for men? Do you like bracelets or necklaces? Lionel: I do like bracelets for men or a nice pinky ring, I guess. Sharon: I was surprised. I went out to lunch with somebody who had what I consider a fabulous necklace, but I would never consider it for a man. He got so many comments on it. Lionel: I’m sure. A lot of guys now are buying diamond pieces. I think there’s a way to wear it that’s chic. Sharon: How long have you been in the jewelry business? Lionel: 18 years. Sharon: It's a long time. What changes have you seen over that time? Lionel: A lot of jewelry coming. A lot more jewelry. Sharon: Really? Lionel: Yeah. You see all the brands. Now the big trend—I was just saying yesterday, Prada is launching fine jewelry. Saint Laurent has launched fine jewelry. There’s Dolce & Gabbana, Gucci. Everybody's betting on jewelry being the moneymaker. I think the biggest growth we can see right now is men's. Men are buying jewelry. Sharon: Would you say there are a lot more independent jewelers today than there were? Lionel: Not only independent, but also all the houses are launching their own lines. Clothing houses, like Prada is launching a line. Saint Laurent is launching a line. Dior did it 20 years ago, but everybody's hopping on the jewelry train. Sharon: Why do you think that is? Lionel: I think there is a real interest again for jewelry. A wider interest than just buying, but as an investment. I think also during Covid, jewelry kind of proved to be Covid-proof. I think a lot of people got the idea that jewelry was the next big thing, because it's true that 2021 was an extraordinary year for jewelry. However, I don't think it's really a trend. I think it was at the moment, and we've seen since that the numbers have been down. The money that women would put in clothes and handbags and shoes, they were not going out, so that money went to jewelry, which was great. But I think it was instant. It was not necessarily a trend. Sharon: Did your business go up because of Covid? Lionel: Huge. We saw a huge difference. Sharon And you've seen it go down or be flat? Lionel: Go down and then flat. But go down, definitely. Sharon: When you take on new clients, do they have to be making a certain amount? What do they have to have? What criteria do you use? Lionel: Well, yes, I make sure they have enough finance to launch a business and to make it start. First of all, you need to have at least three or four years in front of you. There's no instant success. However, I'm always conservative in their growth. I'm not going to ask them to put out a lot of pieces. I think it's always about opening two or three key stores that are generating enough buzz as marketing, if you will, to help grow. But try not to overflow the market. Sharon: What if they’re independent and making things you usually don’t represent, but you think there's something there, an innovation or a passion? Maybe they make pieces that sell for $3,000 or $5,000. That's their niche. Would you take somebody like them on? Lionel: Yeah, I do. All the jewelers I work with, the price point starts at $5,000, $6,000. Sharon: I won't even ask you how much it goes up to. Thank you so much for being here today. Lionel: Thank you. Sharon: I feel like I roped you in from a plane ride or something. Lionel: No, no. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.  Sharon: Thank you for being here.   We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you’ll learn in this episode: Why working with jewelry designers is part business, part therapy. Why the jewelry industry is picking up its pace to match the fashion industry, and why this trend might backfire. Why customer feedback on comfort and wearability is essential for jewelry brands. How Lionel defines success for his jewelry clients. What caused so many fashion houses to develop fine jewelry lines in the last few years, and what this trend means for the industry.  About Lionel Geneste Lionel Geneste is a fashion and luxury industry veteran, having worked for John Hardy, Givenchy, Catherine Malandrino and Randolph Duke in various capacities, from global marketing to communications and merchandising. He is also the founder of the gift-giving service b.Sophisticated. Born in Tehran to French parents, Geneste grew up as a modern nomad: Cairo, Istanbul, Lagos, Beirut, Paris are just a few places he once called home. And so he acquired an eclectic eye, at an early age, for the refined and urbane—only further encouraged by his clotheshorse mother and her like-minded friends. Additional Resources Website Instagram     Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: How does an independent jewelry brand get noticed? For some lucky jewelers, the secret is Lionel Geneste. Lionel is a jewelry strategist and advisor who has launched iconic brands, shown new collections at Paris couture week, and gotten small jewelry artists into top stores. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the jewelry industry compares to the fashion industry; the trends, opportunities and challenges jewelers are facing today; and how he chooses his clients (and why he has to believe in their work). Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, I'm talking with Lionel Geneste. He's an independent strategist in the jewelry industry. He does this after 15 years in fashion, so he knows fashion and jewelry. He's multi-lingual, and he represents many people abroad in the U.S., which is very, very unusual. In fact, I met him through an independent jeweler, and I thought he had such an interesting background I wanted to talk to him more. Lionel, welcome to the program. Lionel: Sharon, good morning. Thank you for having me. Sharon: I'm really glad to have you. How did you come into this business? Lionel: Well, I was in the fashion industry, then a friend of mine was taking over John Hardy. We're talking about 2006 or 2007. They were launching a one-of-a-kind collection, and they brought me on board to launch that collection and to develop it and then basically to do all the PR for John Hardy in general. Sharon: I'm not familiar with John Hardy. Is it fashion? Go ahead. Lionel: John Hardy is this company that does mostly silver. They're based in Bali. All their ateliers are in Bali and they have a big office in New York. John Hardy himself wanted to do a collection for his wife, which would be only one of a kind. That’s when we started that collection called Cinta, which means love in Balinese. People were noticing these rings, and the people from Neiman Marcus noticed them and asked if we could develop them into a full collection, which we did. I’d been more in fashion, in the couture world, and I thought I could do something. Basically, the ladies that were willing to wait for four months for a dress are also willing to have one-of-a-kind jewelry or even preorder them. Sharon: You know, when you tell me who it is, I remember who John Hardy is, but I haven't seen his jewelry for a while. It's around. So, those are your clients? Are they mostly women? Do you represent any men? Lionel: Yeah. These were the clients. The idea at the beginning, when I developed it, is I would do dinners in Paris during the couture shows, and we would present the jewelry. That was pretty much how it all started. If you look at it now, all the jewelry houses are doing presentations during the couture shows. A couple of weeks ago it was in Paris and everybody from Boucheron, Dior etc., presented their collection.  It’s on the same calendar. From then on, when I left John Hardy, I started a company with a business partner. The idea was that we were giving our clients not only the PR aspect and marketing, but also the business, because I was well versed in the business side as well. It was a kind of a one stop shop. Sharon: I'm not familiar with the couture shows. Does the jewelry have a separate presentation? Lionel: Yeah. The couture shows, it’s like when the houses like Valentino, Dior, Chanel, it’s all their shows that are only one of a kind. There are very strict rules that are enacted by the Chambre de Commerce in Paris. You have to have a number of atelier, you have to have a number of people working in the atelier, it's all handmade, etc. There was a parallel with the ladies buying those clothes that are much more expensive than ready to wear and the jewelry industry, and I think everybody made the same link between those. Now, these shows are every year in January and July. The houses like Boucheron, Chanel, Chaumet, all of them hold presentations and invite the press, but also invite clients at the same time. Sharon: So, they show their most expensive jewelry. Lionel: Yes. It’s really the high jewelry collections that are shown there. Sharon: Is there somebody showing them, presenting them, or is it just come and look and see? Lionel: No, they are usually elaborate with more and more, actually. Everything is an experience. More and more they're doing elaborate dinners. For example, Boucheron at the Place Vendôme has dedicated the last floor to a big dining room, and there's also a suite. The best clients can come stay at Boucheron and stay in the building. The view on Place Vendôme is beautiful. So, now it's more a presentation with the designer himself or herself inviting their best customer, or hoping to get the best customer. Sharon: Do you invite these customers? Lionel: I used to do that a lot. I haven't done it in a year. Usually, I work with younger designers or independent and smaller designers, so I don't have the same budget. But usually what I do is I find a new, typical French bistro. I used to do it the night before the shows to make it something very informal, but still presenting the collection in a different format. Sharon: Is that how people found you? They come to these dinners? Lionel: When we talk about clients, there are two different kinds of clients. There are my clients who are the jewelers that I represent, and then I'm talking about clients who are the people who buy the jewelry. Basically, it's word of mouth. When I work with jewelers, some stores recommend me to other brands. Some clients know about someone who's launching a new brand and they refer me. That's really where I enter the competition. I make a proposal, and it’s more about that and referrals. Sharon: Do you advise the high-end buyers of jewelry? Do you advise them? You say you have two kinds of clients. Lionel: Yeah, I have some clients that are collectors. Not everyone is always looking for newness or paying attention to that. So, yes, I do advise them on what I think is a young designer that’s upcoming, and if they're serious about their collection, I think they should have a piece of that person in their collection. I launched Emmanuel Tarpin, for example, and at the time everybody wanted his earrings to be part of their collection. Sharon: Who did you say? Lionel: Emmanuel Tarpin. He's been having a lot of press lately. He's launched a collection of orchids. I don't work with them anymore, but I launched him at the beginning. Sharon: Do you have to like the people that you work with? Lionel: Absolutely. I do have to like the product. I couldn't sell something that I don't believe in. Sharon: Do you ever work with men? Do they come to you for advice? Lionel: They do. However, I find most men—no, I do, actually. I have some men that come, or they are strongly recommended by their wives. A lot of my clients are women who buy for themselves. Sharon: Okay, so they find out about you through word of mouth, or do you advertise? Lionel: But also, I do work with stores. Some of my jewelers are in stores such as Just One Eye in Los Angeles, Cayen in Carmel, Mayfair Rocks in East Hampton. I choose strategically the partnerships and in places where I know we're going to find the right client. Sharon: I bet your clients, they’re abroad and you represent them in the states. Lionel: Yes. Some of them I represent worldwide. I represent them also in Europe, in London and Paris.  At the moment for my clients, I work with Sylvie Corbelin. That's how we met, you and I. Sylvie is based in Paris. I work with a brand that’s new-ish called Mike Joseph, and it was a big success at couture last year. He is based in Bangkok. Then I represent Vishal Anil Kothari, who is based in Mumbai. It's kind of a take on traditional Indian jewelry but with a much lighter frame. They use portrait-cut diamonds, emeralds. Sharon: Do people find out about you? It seems like everybody is not finding out about you through shows or their friends. Lionel: You know, friends, clients, stores, owners. They see how I work with them and recommend me to other people. I have younger friends in the industry that just started their business and ask me for advice. They recommend me or hire me. Sharon: You travel a lot because you have addresses in New York, L.A., Paris. Lionel: I was based in New York for 20 years. I moved to L.A. six years ago. I still go to New York quite often. Sharon: But you were born in Paris or in France? Lionel: I'm French. My parents traveled a lot, so I was born a bit by accident in Tehran, in Iran. But I'm French. I studied in France. Sharon: Do you feel stretched? When I try and get hold of you, I wonder where in the world you’re going to be reading this or calling from. Lionel: No, I like traveling. I think it's interesting. I find it very interesting to meet the clients. You were asking me earlier about feedback and if I give the designer I work with advice. I don't give them advice. I think they all have a strong point of view and they are not influenced by trends. However, I do give them feedback from clients. I think it's always interesting to see. Do they find the jewelry comfortable? Are the earrings too heavy? It's always interesting to see. When you work for a designer, for a woman like Sylvie, Sylvie wears her own jewelry, so she knows if it's comfortable or not. That's always interesting. Mike Joseph tells me that he always has his sister try jewelry on and even live in it for a few days before he puts it in production. Sharon: Do they tell you if it's too heavy? Lionel: Sometimes they do. They do give feedback. Yesterday we were presenting some new sketches to a store, and some stones were kind of sticking out. The first question the store manager asked was, “Is it going to snag clothes?” The answer is they had to remake that and polish the edges so it would not catch on clothes. Sharon: You were presenting sketches of the jewelry? Lionel: Yes. I was showing jewelry to a store, showing the new collection. Kind of a preview of what we're going to do for couture. I wanted to get a sense. It's always interesting. You were asking me when I take on the client, do I have to like it? I do have to like it, but I also usually show it to one or two editors that I trust or a few store owners to see what their reaction is to it as well. It can’t be only my personal things, so it's always interesting to hear what other people have said. Sharon: Do magazine fashion editors come to you to find jewelry? Lionel: Yes, they do. They’ll ask me what I have, if I have anything new and interesting. I do like to work with more individuals. I always try to bring something interesting. You were asking how I choose the designers I work with. It's difficult today to find people who really bring something new, so I'm always looking for that. Someone who has already come up with a new invention or brings something to the world of jewelry. Sharon: Do you work with them to expand? They’re independent and they grow. Do you help them when they launch a chain? Do they outgrow you, let's say? Lionel: No, and I actually, I do like that. I like to be at the beginning, helping them find everything from their voice, how to place themselves, where to place them within the market, price point. What exists already on the market? After I work with them for five or six years, and if they really grow, I like to push them out and hire a real agent.  In general, the brands I work with, we try to keep it exclusive, to not have it in every store. It's very organic. We're not pushing. With strategy, I prefer to go within stores where you're going in what we call deep, like bringing 15 to 20 pieces to really show the depth of the work of the designer, rather than just five or six pieces just to have a presence, which to me doesn't really serve the purpose. Sharon: Do you advise the jewelry stores you're bringing jewelry to on how to display it or things like that? Lionel: Yeah. Some stores have a strong vision about how to do it, but yes, I will. I would ask them to take on some pieces that I find are really representative of the work, and if the pieces are not there I think it doesn't give the right image of the designer. I would try to push, even if they could be slightly reluctant in the beginning. I think some key pieces are important. Going back to Sylvie, snakes are an important part of her design. If I go into a store, I need to have some of these pieces because they're an important symbol of hers. Sharon: So, you would advise the store owner how to show it off, how to get it right. Lionel: Yes. Right. Sharon: What skills do you think you need to be successful? If somebody wants to do what you do, how would they be successful? Lionel: When you work with designers, it’s part business, part therapy. I think you really have to listen to them. That’s the important part, because you can't be totally at odds with what they're feeling and pushing for something they don't believe in. It's a dance, and it’s about listening to each other. I think the relationship with the designer is really what makes it successful. Mike Joseph, Vishal, Sylvie, we've been working together for eight years, so we know each other really well now. I think that's important. Sharon: When you said therapist, what does the therapy involve? Lionel: Designers, or the good designers, are really artists. You have to listen to what they're saying, what they feel. You have to be careful about bringing the commercial part in. You also have to respect what they're designing. So, it's a dance. Sometimes a feeling of rejection can exist, so you have to work with that as well. Sharon: You were in fashion first. What kind of experience does someone in fashion have to have to go into jewelry? Lionel: It’s little bit the same world, I think. You have to have a sense of aesthetics, and you have to like it as well. You don’t go into jewelry if you don’t like jewelry. But the transition from fashion to jewelry is pretty seamless. Sharon: Do you see a difference in the fashion world and the jewelry world? Lionel: I think there used to be a bigger difference in the sense that fashion was very fast-paced and jewelry was not. But I think jewelry is getting into that pace as well, where the designer wants to present two collections a year. So, we're getting a bit on the fashion calendar in that sense. Sharon: The jewelers, if they have a presentation, I have a visual picture of them lugging their cases and setting up. Lionel: Right. I think now people are presenting two collections a year. That used to be a fashion thing. I'm not sure it's the way to go. I don’t think you sell jewelry in the same way you sell clothes. It takes more time. I’ve witnessed clients being disappointed because there was a collection they liked, and then the collection is gone. I think that doesn't leave enough time for people to act upon something they don't necessarily want to buy within a month or two. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you’ll learn in this episode: What to expect at the second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and tips for attending. How Portugal’s 48-year authoritarian regime and the Carnation Revolution continue to influence Portuguese artists and jewelers today. Why jewelry is so closely linked to power and politics. How artists can use masterclasses and workshops to refocus their work. How Marta is working to promote Portugal’s art jewelry scene.   About Marta Costa Reis Marta Costa Reis started studying jewelry in 2004, as a hobby, in parallel with other professional activities. She dedicated herself fully to this work in 2014. Costa Reis completed the jewelry course at Ar.Co – Centro de Arte e Comunicacção Visual, in Lisbon, and the Advanced Visual Arts Course at the same school, in addition to workshops with renowned teachers including Iris Eichenberg, Ruudt Peters, Lisa Walker, and Eija Mustonen, among others. In addition to being a jewelry artist, Costa Reis teaches jewelry history at Ar.Co, writes about jewelry, and curates exhibitions. She also serves as artistic director of the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and as a board member of Art Jewelry Forum. Additional Resources: Marta’s Website Marta’s Instagram   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: How does jewelry symbolize power, and where do jewelry and politics intersect? That’s the central question that Marta Costa Reis and her fellow curators, artists and speakers will explore at this year’s Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. Marta joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why this year’s theme is so timely; how Portugal’s turbulent political history influences jewelry today; and how to plan your trip to make the most of the biennial. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, we're going to be talking about the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. I am talking with Marta Costa Reis, who is going to tell us all about it. Welcome back.   Sharon: Are you a maker?   Marta: I am a maker.   Sharon: Have you been developing jewelry that's linked to power?   Marta: Actually, not so much. My themes are a bit more, maybe spiritual is the word. I don't know. I'm interested in themes that revolve around time and our connection to time and what is behind us. It's quite different, but this was already the theme of the first biennial. We have to move on and have different themes. Of course, I couldn't do work myself for this biennial. I don't have the time or the mindset to be making at this time. I'm fully focused on the biennial.   Sharon: I was noticing you have several curators. How did you choose the curators of different seminars and exhibits? How did you choose them?   Marta: I can speak, for instance, about the main show that is called Madrugada, daybreak. The main title. I wanted someone that was not a Portuguese person so we don't stay too closed in our own bubble. I wanted someone from another country but who could understand what happened here. Mònica Gaspar is Spanish. Besides being an amazing intellectual and teacher and writer and very knowledgeable about jewelry and design, being Spanish, they had a similar process as ours. They also had a very long dictatorship, and at almost the same time as we did, they became a democracy. So, she could understand more or less the same events. That was important, to have someone with that experience of changing from the dictatorship into a democracy.    We spoke last year Schmuck in Munich about it, and she was interested, but she has a lot of work, so it took a little while to convince her. It's because we are a team and we can share the work that were able to do it and Mònica is able to do it. Patrícia Domingues is the other curator. She's Portuguese, but she's younger than we are.   Sharon: Who is that?   Marta: Patrícia Domingues. She recently had a show in Brooklyn. I can write it down for you later, maybe afterwards.   Sharon: Okay. Patrícia. How do you spell the last name?   Marta: Domingues, D-O-M-I-N-G-U-E-S. I think I got it right. I know how to spell it, but sometimes saying it in English is more difficult. She has been living abroad for a quite a long time, but she's Portuguese, so she has a perspective that is both an insider but also an outsider. I wanted that very much, someone that is not closed here in our little bubble. She's she recently finished a Ph.D. She's younger. She's very much in contact with everything that is being reflected about jewelry in the world right now.    I think they are amazing curators, and they bring a lot to the biennial and to the show. I am there as well not only because I enjoy it, but I wanted to help out with the work, sending the invitations and keeping track of everything so that everything goes smoothly. We are a very small organization, and we do a lot of it ourselves on a voluntary basis. We have to take different jobs in this process. But I'm happy they joined us, and I'm very happy to be working with them on this show.   Sharon: Are you the main curator? Is there a main curator who chose the other ones?   Marta: Yes, that is me. I am the main curator for the whole biennial. Then there is a team and we discuss. We basically invited Mònica and Patrícia and they agreed. The other shows, for instance, the tiara show is curated by Catarina Silva, who is also the head of the jewelry department at ARCO. I'm also taking care of, it's called Jewels for Democracy. That's the show that I mentioned about the women being honored. There's a lot of people involved, but it's quite smooth.   Sharon: Somebody has to keep everything moving and coordinate. How are you promoting the show in Portugal and in general? Anything?   Marta: We will start promoting now. We have the two shows in April. We did the launch last November for the whole biennial. We try to be active on Instagram. Not so much on Facebook, but mainly on Instagram. We will start a more intense campaign. We have a professional communications person that will take care of this. We will start a more intense communication campaign very soon. We have it in two parts, so we are focusing on April. Then we'll have the other show in May, and then it's the end of June. It will be in different parts.    We will also announce the masterclasses very soon. I haven't mentioned the masterclasses yet. That's what I was forgetting. There will be two masterclasses, one with Lin Cheung and one with Manuel Vilhena from the 22nd to 26th of June. We'll open the registrations very, very soon. This week we'll open the registration. You'll start seeing more about it, and we will promote it in different venues. I did an interview for SMCK Magazine, the European magazine about jewelry. It just came out in their last issue. I did it in October or at the end of September, but it just came out. So, we're doing a number of things, but it will become more intense at the end of this month, in February. We will reinforce the communication and the advertising.    Sharon: How long are the shows in the biennial? Does it go through the summer, or is there an ending point or beginning point?   Marta: The main thing is that in the last week of June, everything will be open. The shows in the Royal Treasure Museum, the shows at the Design Museum, the colloquium, the schools, the masterclasses, the students, the galleries. Everything will be open in that last week of June. That will be the right moment to come to Lisbon. That's when we are concentrating everything. On the 30th of June, the two shows at the Royal Treasure Museum will close, but the show at MUDE, the Design Museum, will continue until the end of September, so it will go through the summer.   Sharon: Why do you call it a masterclass? Who's teaching it and what are they teaching?   Marta: It's Lin Cheung. She's from the UK. Manuel Vilhena is a quite well-known Portuguese artist and amazing teacher as well. It's five days. I'm not sure how to differentiate between a workshop and a masterclass, which I guess is a workshop with the masters, and they are masters. They are some of the top teachers I know. I did a small course with Manuel Vilhena a few years ago. Not yet with Lin, but I know they are amazing teachers. I'm sure everyone who comes will enjoy it.    Last biennial, we also had masterclasses, one with Caroline Broadhead and the other with Christoph Zellweger. They are very interesting moments of sharing and learning and deepening your understanding of your own work, not just for students but for artists in every moment of their careers. It's super interesting to be able to have these few days to stop and look at what you do, what you want to do next with very good teachers like they are. This can be a very special moment. For a long time, I did as many workshops and masterclasses as I could, and it was so great.   Sharon: The people who teach the classes, do they vet the people coming, or can anybody who wants to come into the class and take it?   Marta: There is a small vetting process, but basically you send a CV and your motivation, not even a letter, but a few words of why you want to do these classes. That will be the vetting process. But it's pretty much open to everyone in every stage of their education or career.   Sharon: The exhibits and going to galleries, are there charges? Are they free? What is the story with that?   Marta: To visit the galleries, some of the venues will be free. The museums have tickets, but most of the venues that are not museums are free.   Sharon: MUDE is the design museum that just opened.   Marta: Yes. It opened a while ago, but it was under renovation for a long time. It's the only museum in Portugal that has a contemporary jewelry collection. They have been building a collection, and hopefully it will grow. They also have lots of fashion and all kinds of product and graphic design. It's a very interesting collection, very interesting building. They haven't opened yet. We will be one of the first shows. The first temporary show after the renovation will be this one.    Sharon: Wow.    Marta: Yeah, it's exciting.   Sharon: Do you think there'll be a triennial?   Marta: Hopefully we'll do the next one. I have a few ideas. I cannot say yet, but yes. I like to start thinking about the next one while still doing this one. If the team wants to, if we get the support we need, for sure there will be another one.   Sharon: Now for somebody who wants—I started thinking of myself and other people, but members of the audience, if there somebody who wants to come alone, who wants to come to Portugal alone to see the exhibit, where do they stay? You said the end of June is the best time to come.   Marta: The last week of June, yes.   Sharon: Okay, and they stay at a hotel?   Marta: Lisbon is a wonderful, very safe and, I think, easy to navigate town. We don't have a special hotel to recommend, but you can reach out to us and we can help give some suggestions. Stay in a hotel, you will get your program, tell us you are coming. We will try as much as possible to help you out. If you want to organize a group, we can help organize the group as well. But it's easy. Uber goes everywhere, taxis go everywhere, you have the subway, you have buses, you can walk, bike. There are all kinds of ways to travel in town. It's not very big. We're not always able to do it, but many of the events, the venues, will be quite close. There will be a few groups in different locations, but you can visit a lot of things by foot that will be very close by. I think it will be very easy to come even if you're alone.   Sharon: Okay. As long as I have you, tell us about the market for art jewelry in Portugal. Has it grown? Do people care about it?   Marta: I think like almost everywhere else, it's a specialist market that certain people enjoy a lot. Actually, it's not very known by everyone. Most people, when you say jewelry, think about more traditional, more commercial jewelry. Like everywhere, there's a way to go, I think. But there is a group of interested people. There's certainly very interesting artists.    We've had contemporary jewelry, art jewelry being done and presented in shows here since the 60s. We've had a school, the specialized school in Lisbon, since the 70s. We have two galleries. One of them just turned 25. The other I think even more, maybe 30. So, we have had the market for a long time. Now, of course, it's a little bit slow, but I think that happened everywhere with the recent crisis. But it exists, and it's been here for over 40 years, 50 years now. Like everywhere else, it's a continuous work, but people love it. Many people love it. I think it will never stop being interesting and important to a number of us.   Sharon: Okay. Go ahead, if there's anything else you wanted to say.   Marta: About the market, that's basically it. It's an issue, and also what we wanted to promote. That's why we did the biennial, to help people see there's a lot more jewelry than the ones they're used to in the traditional way. That's part of the reason we're doing this, not just for ourselves or the ones who already know what jewelry content actually is all about, but for the ones who don't and might be interested in knowing. Getting the beautiful works that are done out there and reaching out to more people, that's it.   Sharon: Okay. I'm trying to read my handwriting here. I was reading your information last night again, but let's see. The cost, the people and most of the stuff is in English as well as Portuguese.   Marta: Yes, everything will be translated. The colloquium will be in English. Everyone will speak English at the colloquium, and in the museums you will have English. Everything will be translated. Our website is translated. Our Instagram, not all is translated, but because it translates automatically, it's not even an issue anymore, I think. But yes, usually you will always have Portuguese and English, except the colloquium that will be fully in English. It will be quite easy for everyone. English is indeed the common language for almost everything, so we just assume. In Portugal everyone speaks English more or less.   Sharon: Do they learn it in school?   Marta: Yes, yes. In school, movies. The movies are not dubbed. They are in the original English, so we are used to listening to English from when we are very young. It becomes a very common language.   Sharon: That's interesting. We'll have the Instagram and the website listed when we post this.   Marta: Okay, great. Going back, if people want to travel to Lisbon, if they by chance come before June, they will still have very interesting things to see besides the program of the biennial. There are the galleries that will have shows in Lisbon. There's Galeria Reverso and Galeria Tereza Seabra. They both will have shows as they usually have. In April and May, if you visit Portugal, come, because there will be jewelry to be seen. If you plan to come for the biennial, June is a very exciting month. The city is beautiful. It's when there are flowers, there's green, there's the sun. People are just happy in June, everywhere I guess.   Sharon: How is the weather then? Is it hot?   Marta: No, it's warm. June is still quite good. End of July, August is maybe a bit too much, but June usually is still quite good. I won't say the number because I would say it in Celsius so it doesn't mean anything, and I don't know how to say it in Fahrenheit. I won't say a number for the temperature, but it's really nice. The best thing is that the evenings are warm. That's the best, when in the evening it's still warm and it's nice outside. That's June.   Sharon: Are there a lot of people in the streets still when it's warm outside and warm in the evenings? I know you don't live in the center.   Marta: Yes, people will go out. As I said, in June you have traditional parties. The patron saint of Lisbon, his day is in June. From there, you have many, many parties. People go outside, they will eat outside. There will be concerts outside, there will be movies outside, everything will be outside and it will be very nice.   Sharon: I hope that we can all go. I have here the official name is the Second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial, right?   Marta: Exactly.   Sharon: What is the theme once more again?   Marta: The theme is political jewelry and jewelry of power.   Sharon: Okay. And PIN is involved with this also? PIN is the art jewelry—   Marta: PIN is the Portuguese Contemporary Jewelry Association, and it's the organizer of the biennial.    Sharon: Reading through this information I was ready to book my flight. It looks wonderful.   Marta: Yes. I'm happy you come. But surely, if people want to come, reach out to us. If you write to us through Instagram, the website, it will be easy to reach out to us, and we will help in any way. If you want to come, we can help make it happen in the easiest way possible for you. We're happy to have you and everyone who wants to come.   Sharon: Well, thank you very much for telling us about it.   Marta: Thank you for having me and helping us tell our story.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you’ll learn in this episode: What to expect at the second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and tips for attending. How Portugal’s 48-year authoritarian regime and the Carnation Revolution continue to influence Portuguese artists and jewelers today. Why jewelry is so closely linked to power and politics. How artists can use masterclasses and workshops to refocus their work. How Marta is working to promote Portugal’s art jewelry scene.   About Marta Costa Reis Marta Costa Reis started studying jewelry in 2004, as a hobby, in parallel with other professional activities. She dedicated herself fully to this work in 2014. Costa Reis completed the jewelry course at Ar.Co – Centro de Arte e Comunicacção Visual, in Lisbon, and the Advanced Visual Arts Course at the same school, in addition to workshops with renowned teachers including Iris Eichenberg, Ruudt Peters, Lisa Walker, and Eija Mustonen, among others. In addition to being a jewelry artist, Costa Reis teaches jewelry history at Ar.Co, writes about jewelry, and curates exhibitions. She also serves as artistic director of the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and as a board member of Art Jewelry Forum. Additional Resources: Marta’s Website Marta’s Instagram   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: How does jewelry symbolize power, and where do jewelry and politics intersect? That’s the central question that Marta Costa Reis and her fellow curators, artists and speakers will explore at this year’s Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. Marta joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why this year’s theme is so timely; how Portugal’s turbulent political history influences jewelry today; and how to plan your trip to make the most of the biennial. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, we're going to be talking about the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. I am talking with Marta Costa Reis, who is going to tell us all about it. I met Marta about eight to 5 years ago at the first biennial in Lisbon, Portugal. One of the goals was to gather together examples and information about the history of modern Portugal and the jewelry that's associated with it. When we think of Portuguese jewelry, we don't automatically think of art jewelry. But it has a history of more than several decades about the work that's been going on and art jewelry in general. The second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial is coming up this summer in Lisbon. The last one was held in Lisbon, too. Marta Costa Rice is going to be telling us about this biennial and what to expect this summer in Lisbon. There will be a lot going on in many venues. There is the exhibition at MUDE, which is a very well-known Portuguese design museum. There's an international symposium with people coming from all over the world to discuss the theme of the exhibition, which I'll let Marta tell you about. A lot is taking place at many of the galleries. One of the key exhibits is taking place at the Royal Treasure Museum. But I don't want to steal Marta's spotlight. Today, she'll tell us all about the second Contemporary Jewelry Biennial in Portugal. Marta, welcome to the program. Marta: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me and for this very nice introduction. So, where should I start? I don't even know. There's so much to tell. I'm currently organizing the second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. I do it as a new chairwoman of PIN, which is a Portuguese contemporary jewelry association. Sharon: PIN, P-I-N? Marta: PIN, yes. PIN has existed now for 20 years. It will be 20 years this September. It was created to organize quite a big event. At the time, Cristina Filipe was one of the founders and was the chairwoman for a very long time. Of course, you know her by the Susan Beach Grant. She received the first Susan Beech Grant for Mid-Career Artists, and that allowed us to publish a book which came from Cristina's Ph.D. about Portuguese jewelry, contemporary jewelry in Portugal. That time, when the book was published, that's when she had traveled to Portugal and we met. We had this challenge for ourselves, saying that if we managed to do a good program to present interesting shows, good visits, we could be able to do a biennial. That's its inspiration, this trip, how all this came to happen. Of course, the timing for the first biennial—we called it the AJF trip. It was like year zero, the pilot episode. The first biennial happened in the middle of the pandemic, so we were never sure that we really would be able to make it happen because there was still a lot of restrictions. But luckily it happened in September 2021, when people were able to travel a little bit. Then we managed to have a huge number of artists and collectors and interesting people. The theme was about the pandemic. It was jewelry of protection and connecting contemporary objects, contemporary jewelry of protection in the 21st century with very old relics and sacred objects that were shown together in an exhibition in a museum here in Lisbon. Of course, we did call it the biennial to force ourselves to do the second one. Sharon: I wanted to ask, what does biennial mean, literally? Marta: It's supposed to be every two years. That that's what it means. It's supposed to happen every two years. Of course, it's a little bit more than two years now. It's two years and a half between the first one and the second one. But because we have this idea to always have as a theme for the biennial something that is happening in the world at the moment. The first one was the pandemic. Now in Portugal 2024, we will have this very important event, which is the 50th anniversary of our revolution when we became a democratic country. I don't know if people are aware that we had an authoritarian regime for 48 years, and it happened in 1974. It was a very smooth revolution. Let's just say that, because it happened without almost any gun being shot. Of course, it took a little while. The Democratic constitution was approved a bit later, but that is the fundamental moment when we became a democratic country or started to become a democratic country. It happened 50 years ago now, so it's really a whole new generation, a whole new world, and we want to celebrate that. Jewelry, of course, has a lot to do with power or representations of power. There is also in contemporary jewelry a lot of political work. Many artists do work that is political or can be read in a political way. We wanted to consider those issues, jewelry of power and political jewelry. That's basically the idea of how it came about. Sharon: Why is it called the Carnation Revolution? Marta: That's an amazing story, actually. It happened because literally a woman that had some red carnations in her hands started to put carnations, the flowers, in the guns of the soldiers. Some of the most famous images of the revolution are soldiers with the flowers in their guns. It represents a lot of things, namely that the guns were not being shot. They were holding flowers. It happened by accident. It's suggested that this lady, apparently one of the soldiers asked her for a cigarette. She said she didn't have cigarettes, but she had a flower, and she put the flower in his gun. And then people started to replicate the gesture. Until today, the red carnation--there were also white carnations, but basically the red carnation is still very much a symbol of that movement, that revolution, and it took the name. For us, thinking about that, the gesture she had is also very much a gesture of adornment, the gesture of adorning that gun with the flower. So, we wanted to pick up on that and what it could mean. Sharon: How is jewelry linked to power? Marta: You have that example, for instance, in the Royal Treasure Museum that you mentioned, which shows the jewelry of the national treasure, jewels that belonged to the state—well, to the crown, basically. Some of them were private jewelry worn by kings and queens. Some of them are more royal estate jewelry. Basically, it's that representation of the power that it can show and the time when diamonds and precious stones and even precious metals were not used by everyone. It showed how powerful a person was, how important or how close to the eye of power. It's the idea of a crown or a tiara, of a whole set of diamonds, but also all the objects that you can put on your body, like the jeweled swords and things like that. Jewelry indeed has a lot to say about power, how you show yourself as a person of power or representing a situation of power, being a king or queen or someone with a very high responsibility. That connection always existed. This museum is brand new. It will be two years ago in June. This jewelry was not accessible. It was not shown for a very long time. It was only in a temporary exhibition, so it's an excellent opportunity to see these pieces that are absolutely incredible. Although many were lost and sold, they're still a very nice collection. Sharon: So, a biennial can be anything, theoretically. Every 10 years, it could be trucks. It could be jewelry, but it could be a biennial about anything, right? Marta: We tried to connect it to things that are ongoing in the world at the moment. For 2024, our main motivation with this event was that we knew it would happen in Portugal. There will be a lot of other moments of celebration of democracy, basically. That that's what the celebration is all about. But if you look at the world at large, it's also very topical, this issue and the themes. It's something that people can relate to at the present moment, not just Portuguese. That's what we thought could be interesting, to see how our jewelers, our artists, are connecting to the world at the present and what they have to say about it through their work, through jewelry. Sharon: How did you get involved in it? Marta: I don't know. It's probably a personality trait. I like to get involved in things. I like this tendency to be of service to something larger than myself. I became involved first with PIN because in my previous professional life, I used to—I was not a lawyer, but I studied law, so I worked with law. I started to be involved with PIN about some situations that were happening with laws that were changing that affected jewelry. So, I started to cooperate with them on that issue. Then I was very much involved in AJF's first visit to Lisbon, and then in the organization of the first biennial. Sharon: AJF means—I want everybody to understand that AJF means Art Jewelry Forum. Marta: Art Jewelry Forum, yes. So, I was the person helping in Portugal. There were others, but I was one of them.  I got very much involved in the first biennial and then Cristina wanted to leave and not do the second one. She was very tired and wanted to move on to something else. I said, "Okay, but we did this biennial. We need to try to do the second one." That's what happened. And I said, "Okay, I'll try to take over and do the second biennial." That's what happened. That's my mission at the moment at this organization, the Portuguese Association for Contemporary Jewelry, to do the second biennial, and from then on let's see how many more we can do. Sharon: I noticed that she wasn't on the list of speakers. Are you giving any kind of prize or a grant like Cristina received 10 years ago to do her book? Marta: No. The program is two exhibitions in the Royal Treasure Museum. One of the exhibitions will be contemporary jewelers doing work to honor a woman of their choice that had a role in the democratic transition, so a woman that was especially hurt by the dictatorship or was especially involved in the democracy. Many of them are artists because we also had censorship and artists could not be free in their work. Many of the women the jewelers chose to honor are artists. A few of them even had to leave Portugal and move to other countries to be able to do their work. But not only do we have anonymous women, we have some politicians. We had one of the first women prime ministers in Europe, so she will be honored as well. There are a few other women that people felt needed some recognition or wanted to give them their recognition. In 1974, when the revolution happened, many of the actors were men because it was done by military men, and all the politicians were men. A few women started showing up afterwards. But before the end of our dictatorship, women had no representation at all in the public space. They were mostly shown as accessories. Good woman, good wife, good cook, but that's all. Only after 1974 did women start to have their own representation as professionals in other things besides being wives. We couldn't even travel to other countries without the husband's permission or have bank accounts or things like that. When I was born, that was still the reality in my country. It's not 200 years ago. It's very, very close to us. That's also why it's important to show those who have not lived through that that an authoritarian regime is a terrible thing. So, we are honoring these women. We have another show of contemporary tiaras by a contemporary artist that will be shown next to the crown jewels. That will be an interesting contrast. These two shows will open in April. So, from April to the end of June, you can see contemporary jewelry in the Royal Treasure Museum, which will also be a first. It's a very endearing project, and there have been great, great partners. Then in May, a show by the contemporary artist Teresa Milheiro will open as well. It's sort of an anthological show, but not only. She always had political themes in her work, so that's one of the reasons why she was chosen to do this solo. Then in the last week of June, between 24th and 30th of June, there will be an immensity of shows. The big show at MUDE that is curated by myself, Mònica Gaspar and Patrícia Domingues is an international collective show with artists from many different parts of the world. Not all parts of the world, because in many countries you still don't have a lot of contemporary jewelry. But we're doing our best to have it as broad as possible. There will be what we call parallel events, which are shows organized by artists, collectives and students that are doing shows at the same time in Lisbon. There's the colloquium with international speakers from many parts of the world. The colloquium will be in English. It will also be accessible online for anyone who wants to stay at home and still be able to accompany that. It will also be about political jewelry and politics and politics of jewelry and power. This will still be the main themes. There will be a show with schools from different countries, a meeting of the students and then an exhibition. The educational part is very present. I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of things or there are things I didn't say yet. There will be what you call a jewelry room with galleries from different countries. Galleries are still, and hopefully will be for a long time, a very important part of the jewelry world, so we want them to be present as well and show their artists and their choices. The last week of June will be absolutely filled with contemporary jewelry in Lisbon. Plus it's an amazing month. It's the best month in Lisbon. There are parties on the streets. It's the best. Sharon: Do the galleries choose what to show that's linked to this theme? What is the official theme? Marta: There is a title, which is Madrugada. That means daybreak. This title is inspired by a very beautiful poem by a Portuguese poet, Sophia de Mello Breyner. It's very short, but basically it says this is a new dawn after a very long, dark night. It's a poem about the revolution. She loosely calls it a new dawn. This is the theme. We asked the galleries to bring work that is connected to theme, to political jewelry, and we also asked them to present a Portuguese artist. Some of them already have Portuguese artists in their midst, in their group of selected artists, and some don't. What we want is for galleries to have a look at the national, Portuguese artists, and make their choice. That way, our Portuguese artists get more representation or more presence and maybe a little more representation in other countries. Sharon: You mentioned the educational piece of the shows and symposia. What do you have planned, and what are the topics? Are they in English? Marta: They are in English. The symposium is in English. I can give you some examples. We will have, for instance, and this could be interesting for you, the artist Cindi Strauss will speak about themes from the book she published recently on American jewelry in the 60s and 70s and the counterculture. She will be there. We will also have a Brazilian researcher called Dionea Rocha Watt, and she will speak about jewelry of power, like the jewelry that Imelda Marcos owns, or the jewelry from the recent scandal with the former Brazilian President Bolsonaro, who sold some jewelry he received, and other representations and connections between jewelry and power. But we will also have, for instance, Rosa Maria Mota, who will speak about traditional Portuguese jewelry. It was used by popular woman from the countryside that bought as much gold jewelry as possible as a way to preserve their finances and their power. It's the connection between traditional gold jewelry and women power. Things like that. It's always around politics and policy and power and jewelry. Hopefully it will be very interesting. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

\   Transcript: Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That’s exactly why Gina D’Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here. What you’ll learn in this episode: What questions to ask appraisers and auction houses before selling your jewelry. What education and networking opportunities an aspiring appraiser should seek out. Why an appraisal includes multiple values, and why those values will change depending on the reason for the appraisal. What the process of selling jewelry with an auction house is like, and why you might choose an auction house over selling online or to a store. What a qualified appraiser will look for while inspecting a piece of jewelry.   About Gina D'Onofrio With work in the retail, auction and manufacturing sectors of the jewelry industry since 1989, Gina D'Onofrio's experience encompasses jewelry design and production, appraisals, buying and selling of contemporary, antique and period jewelry, sales and management. Gina operates an independent gemological laboratory, appraisal service and consulting firm and has been catering to private individuals, banks, trusts, non-profit organizations, insurance companies, legal firms and the jewelry trade in the greater Los Angeles area. Gina received her Master Gemologist Appraiser® designation, upon completion of appraisal studies, written and practical examinations and peer appraisal report review with the American Society of Appraisers. In addition, she was awarded the Certified Master Appraiser designation with the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers. In 2013 Gina received Los Angeles Magazine's coveted "Best in LA" award for her Jewelry Appraisal Services. She conducts presentations and entertaining speeches about appraisal and jewelry related topics to private and corporate groups in Los Angeles and throughout the USA.   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Email   Transcript: Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That’s exactly why Gina D’Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    Today, I am glad to welcome back Gina D'Onofrio, an appraiser who just returned from being an independent appraiser. She returned to the auction house Heritage as co-director of jewelry. She was also on the podcast in the very beginning, and it's good to have her on again. Welcome back.   If you become a certain kind of appraiser, let's say real estate or antique jewelry or I'll call it regular jewelry, how do you continue your education in those areas? What do you do if you're a real estate appraiser and you want to be an expert, or an antique expert? What would you do to continue education in that area?   Gina: You mentioned real estate. So, you mean you're appraising houses and all of a sudden you want to appraise antique jewelry?   Sharon: No, if you're in a particular area, is what I mean. You work in jewelry. What do you do to further your education besides going to the conferences, handling the jewelry? Are there other things you can do to further your education in those areas? In that area, I should say.   Gina: If you're working in jewelry, you're basically filling all the educational holes that you might have. When you say you work in jewelry, if you work for a contemporary jeweler, then you need to have more exposure to vintage jewelry. If it's vice versa, maybe you're working with antique and estate jewelry and you're not as exposed to what present day Tiffany and Company and Cartier and Van Cleef & Arpels are doing, then you have to self-educate and gain more exposure to that kind of jewelry. As a jewelry appraiser, anything can cross your desk. Quite often, I might receive a collection that belongs to somebody, and she may have something that she bought last week and she may have something that her great-grandmother owned and she has inherited. You need to be able to recognize and evaluate and appraise both pieces. So, you do need a very well-rounded education.   Sharon: You raised the point of Cartier and David Webb and the high-end pieces that designers make, but not everything you see is going to be that. As you said, there's the piece that the grandmother passes down. Heritage, I presume, isn't all Cartier. What do you do then? What do you do if a piece comes across your desk and it's not a Cartier or it's not a David Webb? Do you look at a David Webb as the benchmark and then go from there?   Gina: No, you don't, because a piece that has no stamp or signature doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a fine piece. That's where having an understanding of jewelry manufacturing is critical. You do need to gain an education on how a piece of jewelry is made. GIA is teaching a class called jewelry forensics. In that class, they teach appraisers and other members of the industry how to look at a piece and recognize how it was fabricated. Was it made entirely by hand? Was it made by carving a wax and casting it? Was it made via CAD/CAM design and 3D printing? Was made by using a die struck method? These are all different methods of producing a piece of jewelry, and as an appraiser you need to have an education in that so when you're holding that piece of jewelry in your hand, A) you recognize how it was made, and B) you recognize the quality of the workmanship. That plays into the value of the piece.    For example, you might have a piece of jewelry, and you recognize that it was made entirely by hand. A great deal of time and effort has gone into making it, and the workmanship is excellent. Flawless, in fact. That is going to inform you as to what it would cost to replace that piece if your client wants to insure it for another piece that has been made entirely by hand.    Or, you might look at a piece that is mass produced using CAD/CAM and 3D printing, but it's a piece that's not finished very well. It's poorly made, and the setting work is very poor, too. In fact, some of the stones are a little bit loose because they weren't set properly, or perhaps they're not straight in the piece. That's going to tell you that it's a mass-produced piece. If it's not signed, you're going to be looking at other mass-produced pieces of the same type of lower quality in order to determine what it would cost to replace that piece. Understanding production is really important.   Sharon: Can you be an appraiser without having this background of manufacturing and that sort of thing? Could you be an appraiser?   Gina: You can. I'm really sad to say that there is no licensing of jewelry appraisers. There is no regulation, no government regulation. We self-regulate. That's why if you want to become a professional appraiser and you want to be the best appraiser you can be, you should join an organization that gives you excellent education and network with other very experienced appraisers who can help guide you in the right direction to get the education that you need.    Unfortunately, anybody can appraise jewelry and nobody can stop you. As a consumer, it's best to look for an appraiser that has reached the highest level they can possibly attain within an appraisal organization that requires their members to requalify every five years. The International Society of Appraisers has a requalification program. So does the American Society of Appraisers. They do require their members to requalify every five years. Then you have the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers that have different strata of membership, different tiers of membership, so look for an appraiser within that organization that has successfully completed the Certified Master Appraiser program, the CMA, and at the very least is a certified appraiser. Someone who has sat for the exams.   Sharon: What is requalification? Is that a test on paper or a computer, or is it just that you came to class?   Gina: It varies. It depends on which organization. I failed to mention the American Gem Society, I apologize. They also have an Independent Gemologist Appraiser program. For requalification, you have to attend a minimum amount of education every year. You have to prove you have done that. There is also an exam you have to take as well.   Sharon: You answered one of the questions I had, which is what you would ask somebody you want to be an appraiser for you. What would you ask them to know if they're good or not? What should I ask? What would somebody in the public ask if they're looking for an appraiser?   Gina: Yes. Everything that I just told you. Make sure that they have reached the highest designation they can within those appraisal organizations.   Sharon: I took some antique jewelry to an appraiser not knowing that they did all kinds of jewelry, but they weren't an expert in antiques. Was there any way to suss that out in advance?   Gina: That's a great question, Sharon. That's tricky. As I mentioned earlier, I feel that it's difficult to get a formal education in jewelry history today, so you are getting it piecemeal from wherever you can, which is why I developed my courses. There is no way to look at an appraiser and have them prove to you that they are a specialist in antique and period jewelry. Unfortunately, that's something that comes by way of reputation. You may have to ask, "How did you become proficient?" You may have to just ask them to explain that to you. It's a tricky one. As a consumer, I'm not quite sure how that could be proven.   Sharon: What would you suggest the public ask if you want to know if an appraiser is credentialed, a credible appraiser?   Gina: You ask them what level of certification, what designation, they have achieved within their appraisal organization. Are they a member of the ASA, the NAJA, the ISA, the AGS? If they are a member—you could be a member and not attain any education. You could be a candidate member, or you could just simply be a member. Ask them, "What education have you completed with these organizations? Are you designated? What is your designation? What is your experience with antique and period jewelry? Are you proficient with that type of jewelry?" Just outright ask them to show you what their education and designation is.    Most appraisers who have achieved this level of education and designation have spent a great deal of time attaining it and are proud of what they've achieved, and they usually put up on their website for everybody to see. But if they haven't done that, you can ask them for their professional profiles so you can read through what they've achieved, and you can even check it. You can call those appraisal organizations to see if the information you've been provided is true and accurate.   Sharon: I'm thinking about something you said earlier. If somebody says to me, "I don't have a formal education in this, but I've handled a million and one pieces in this era, and I can tell right away if it's fake or not and who made it," what do you say to that?   Gina: That's quite possible. Absolutely. Then that makes them a connoisseur and a specialist in antique and period jewelry. But are they an appraiser? Do they have an education in appraisal report writing? Can they write that appraisal report for you? That's the other part. That's the other side of the coin. That's the other thing they have to have to be an appraiser. Otherwise, they're an expert in that period of jewelry, but they're not necessarily an appraiser.   Sharon: That's interesting. When I thought about being an appraiser myself, it was the report writing that scared me off. That's very detailed and very scientific in a way. Very precise.   Gina: Yes, and that education is something that you can study.   Sharon: Okay. I think I'll pass.   Gina: You almost looked like you were considering it, Sharon.   Sharon: No, I think I've heard too much about the classes for the report writing and how they're pretty onerous, in a in a good way.   Gina: They're fascinating. I highly recommend it. Anyone out there who is writing appraisal reports and doesn't have a foundation in appraisal report writing from one of the major organizations, I really suggest that you go out and get that education. You'll be amazed at what you'll learn. It's going to make you even better at what you do.   Sharon: Why would you say it makes you better at what you do?   Gina: This education is written by appraisers, not just one appraiser, but collaborative groups of appraisers who have been immersed in that profession for many, many years. They have learned the best approaches and the pitfalls. They have studied the government requirements. They may have had a lot of experience in appraising for litigation, and this collective information has been formally put into a course. It's only going to help you as an appraiser. It's going to help you avoid ending up in court or possibly being disqualified as an appraiser for the IRS because you did not follow the proper procedures. If you know what pitfalls to avoid and how to arrive at a more informed opinion of value, it's only going to make your appraisal a better product for the person that's using it.   Sharon: That makes a lot of sense. I keep going back to Antiques Roadshow. They talk about the auction value and the retail value and the insurance value. It drives me crazy because you see the glassy-eyed look in somebody's eyes. I want to say, "Didn't you hear what they said?"   Gina: As an appraiser and as a specialist for an auction house, this is the biggest problem. This is the biggest obstacle for a private individual, understanding that there is not just one value. There are multiple values for the same piece of jewelry. It just depends on the market. It depends on whether it's the auction market, whether it is the liquidation market, or whether it is the retail market or whether it is the antique and estate jewelry market. Is it being sold as a brand-new piece? Is it being sold as a pre-owned piece in a retail scenario? Is it a custom-made designer piece? The same piece of jewelry could have various values depending on what you need that information for.   Sharon: I wonder, you talked about this handmade piece. Is there a replacement? Yes, there's an insurance value, but could you find a replacement somewhere in the market?   Gina: That's a great question. You know what? Appraisal organizations, we all have forums, email chat groups where we ask each other questions and use the collaborative brain trust of your peers to help you solve a problem, and a problem came up today. There was a photograph of a bracelet that was posted by a professional appraiser. This appraiser recognized the designer. The designer and the manufacturer—they are one in the same—was a French designer called Georges Lenfant. He was a manufacturer of chains, particularly beautifully constructed chains and bracelets, and he manufactured for all the major jewelry houses, Van Cleef & Arpels, Cartier, goodness me, so many of them. He was very active in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s. He had his own trademark that he would put inside a piece, but he didn't sign it. The piece was often signed with the jewelry house, Cartier, and then it had the Georges Lenfant stamp inside the piece. He was a French maker.  I tell you all of this to explain that today, when pieces of jewelry come to market made by this particular maker, there is an extra layer of interest and value because these pieces are so beautifully made. This appraiser posted a piece of jewelry by this maker. This is one of those pieces that wasn't signed by a major jewelry house, but the appraiser was very good and was able to recognize that it was the Georges Lenfant trademark and posed the question, "Can anybody tell me where I can find examples of this piece so I can arrive at an opinion of replacement value?" It was a 1970s bracelet made by this French maker. Where would you replace a 1970s piece made by this maker? It would be with somebody who typically sells vintage jewelry, high-end vintage jewelry. That should have been the answer to this question.    Unfortunately, one of the answers provided was, "Contact the manufacturer and ask them what they would charge you to make it today." It's not being made today, not that particular piece. It's a vintage piece by a collectible maker. I guess that's a very long example to your question. You need to determine, is this a piece that's typically being made today, or is this a vintage piece that has collectible value? Do you recognize who the maker is? Is there a stamp inside there? Is there some way you can look this up? If you can't look it up, who do you go to? How do you find out? You need to know to ask all these questions. All this happens by networking with your peers, by attending appraisal conferences, by self-educating, and by handling a lot of this jewelry.   Sharon: Do you have a favorite period that you like to appraise, or a favorite stone that you are more partial to?   Gina: Oh, boy. Gosh. Well, my focus is 20th century jewelry. I have no favorites. I love all periods of jewelry, but because I am very much immersed these days in jewelry from 1930 to 2000, which I feel is an area of education that is not being covered enough, I tend to focus on 20th century jewelry and preferably the latter half.   Sharon: I can understand. How do you bring the jewelry in, and what do you do with it once you have it?   Gina: A typical day as a consignment director at Heritage Auctions. Well, that varies from day to day, but if you're talking about the consignment process, I could be going to visit with a client. It could be in his or her home. I could be looking at the jewelry and studying the jewelry and learning about the history behind the piece from the owner. Based on that information and based on the collection, I could be coming up with estimate ranges of what the piece of jewelry may sell for at auction. At that point, the owner of the jewelry may consign it to the auction house, at which point I take the jewelry with me and it goes through the auction process.    It gets shipped to headquarters, where it is professionally photographed. If there are any repairs that need to be done, it's done at that point. If lab reports need to be obtained, they are submitted to the labs for grading reports or gem origin identification reports. Then they go through the cataloging process, where the pieces are tested, gemstones are measured, and weight estimates are provided and entered into the system. Then all this information is compiled into the digital online catalog. If it's a signature sale, it also goes into the printed catalog and it goes to print. Those catalogs are distributed to all the bidders.    Then the marketing begins. Biographies are written and researched. Anything that will assist in helping to provide more information to a potential bidder is entered. Then the publicity begins and the public previews begin. The pieces are shipped and sent off to our major satellite offices where they are set up in jewelry showcases, and they are available for public preview. Sometimes special events are planned around these previews, and the planning behind those special events takes place as well. Once all of that is complete, then the pieces are offered up on auction day. When the pieces have successfully sold at auction, then they are packaged up again, money is collected, and the pieces are shipped to the new owners.   Sharon: Do you ever have repeat clients or repeat people who call you and say, "Gina, I have something I want to show you," because you've developed a relationship?   Gina: Yes, definitely. I have regular consignors and I have regular buyers, and sometimes they are one in the same. There are people that are constantly refining their jewelry collections, so sometimes they'll sell a piece that they no longer need, but they're also collecting pieces that are more to their evolving tastes. We have collectors. Then we also have repeat consignors. I have many clients who have accumulated lovely jewelry collections over the years, and they're very slowly thinning the collection or letting each piece go once they're ready to sell it.   Sharon: Is that because they're aging out, let's say, or they get tired of a piece?   Gina: It could be either. If you're a collector and you're refining your collection, then yes, you're refining it and you're selling pieces that no longer fit in with your style that is evolving. If you're downsizing, you could be downsizing everything in your life, including your home, your clothes and your jewelry collection. Sometimes lifestyle. Especially today, lifestyles change. We no longer wear the jewelry we used to wear, and it's just sitting around. Maybe it's time to sell those pieces to put it into something else. Maybe you want to start a college fund for your child, and that jewelry you're no longer wearing anymore is going to go into that fund. There are all kinds of reasons why people sell their jewelry. Sometimes it's a divorce settlement. Sometimes it's by court order. We've had many sales that have been by court order. The government wants to collect their taxes and it's a liquidation. Jewelry is going up for sale because it's by court order.   Sharon: It's certainly true that lifestyles change very fast and what you wore. I think, "Well, you're a middle-aged woman now. Am I going to wear what I wore when I was 20?" It's very different.   Gina, thank you very much for being here. I learned a lot. It was great to talk with you and I hope you will come back soon.   Gina: Thank you so much, Sharon. It was such a pleasure to talk to you as well.   We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.    

What you’ll learn in this episode: What questions to ask appraisers and auction houses before selling your jewelry. What education and networking opportunities an aspiring appraiser should seek out. Why an appraisal includes multiple values, and why those values will change depending on the reason for the appraisal. What the process of selling jewelry with an auction house is like, and why you might choose an auction house over selling online or to a store. What a qualified appraiser will look for while inspecting a piece of jewelry.   About Gina D'Onofrio With work in the retail, auction and manufacturing sectors of the jewelry industry since 1989, Gina D'Onofrio's experience encompasses jewelry design and production, appraisals, buying and selling of contemporary, antique and period jewelry, sales and management. Gina operates an independent gemological laboratory, appraisal service and consulting firm and has been catering to private individuals, banks, trusts, non-profit organizations, insurance companies, legal firms and the jewelry trade in the greater Los Angeles area. Gina received her Master Gemologist Appraiser® designation, upon completion of appraisal studies, written and practical examinations and peer appraisal report review with the American Society of Appraisers. In addition, she was awarded the Certified Master Appraiser designation with the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers. In 2013 Gina received Los Angeles Magazine's coveted "Best in LA" award for her Jewelry Appraisal Services. She conducts presentations and entertaining speeches about appraisal and jewelry related topics to private and corporate groups in Los Angeles and throughout the USA.   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Email   Transcript: Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That’s exactly why Gina D’Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here.   Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.   Today, I am glad to welcome back Gina D'Onofrio, an appraiser who just returned from being an independent appraiser. She returned to the auction house Heritage as co-director of jewelry. She was also on the podcast in the very beginning, and it's good to have her on again.  I got to know Gina when she was head of the western arm of the Association of Jewelry Historians, a volunteer position. I got to know her further when she was an independent appraiser. She recently returned to Heritage Auction House as co-director of the jewelry department. Why did she return to Heritage? That's one of the things she'll be sharing with us as she tells her story. Gina will also be describing why she chose to become an appraiser and what the job entails on a day-to-day basis. She'll tell us how she deals with the dual challenges of not only bringing in jewelry to appraise, but nurturing relationships that make clients keep coming back to her with jewelry. Gina, welcome to the podcast.   Gina: Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to be back, Sharon. Great to talk to you again.   Sharon: I'm so glad that you are on the show again. Now, my first question is if I describe to you a piece of jewelry and you've never held it or seen it or anything, but I tell you it's this many years old and it's these stones, if it has stones, can you tell me how much you think it would be worth?   Gina: Well, appraising a piece of jewelry that I can't actually see and evaluate and hold in my hand to determine the different value characteristics it might have, it would be flippant of me to give you a value. I think it would be unfair, because you may describe it to me based on your knowledge of the piece or based on what somebody has told you about the piece. If I hold it in my hand, I might see something totally different. I may have a different opinion.  For example, you may say that someone told you it was an Art Deco brooch, that it was 1920s, and it was a sapphire and diamond piece. If I had a chance to look at it, I might determine that the sapphire was laboratory grown rather than natural, because they were producing sapphires in a lab in the 1920s. You may not have that piece of information. You may have part of it, that it's a sapphire, but you may not have the rest. So, for me to arrive at a value based on your description, it's just incomplete. It wouldn't be fair.   Sharon: Could you tell if a sapphire was lab grown or if it was natural if you just looked at it without a loupe or without a microscope?   Gina: No, not without a loupe. Definitely not. Sometimes I can determine with a loupe, depending on the sapphire and the nature of the inclusions it may or may not have. But I would have to say that nine times out of 10, I need that microscope to separate the lab grown from the natural. In fact, I was doing a lot of that today. I have a collection of pieces from a dealer, and they need me to tell them if it's laboratory grown or natural. Most of the pieces they have provided to me are circa 1920 through to 1940, and about 70% of them are lab grown.   Sharon: That's interesting. One would think that they're mostly all the same. They're all lab grown or they're all natural, or most of them are one or the other.   Gina: Yes, one would think. In fact, one of the pieces had both in the one piece. It had square calibre cut sapphires in the piece, and some of them were natural and some of them were lab grown. They were selected not for the value of the sapphires. They were selected so that they were all uniform in color. At the time, I have no doubt that those lab-grown sapphires were much more expensive than they are today, just like I imagine lab-grown diamonds will be 20 years from now. Right now, they are falling rapidly in price. I imagine in the future we'll be looking at those lab-grown diamonds just like we're looking at lab-grown sapphires that were produced in the early 20th century.   Sharon: That's interesting. Like this dealer, if I have several pieces of jewelry that I want to sell or I want to auction off, should I make the rounds of auctioneers and see what the best deal is, or should I choose the one I like, the auctioneer that I jibe with the most?   Gina: That's an interesting question. There's a lot of depends there. It depends on the piece that you have. Some auction houses will only take a certain price point and above in order for them to bring your piece to a successful sale. So, already, your piece may or may not be suitable for some auction houses.    The second part of your question, I think, is very important because the market is going to do what it's going to do. If the auction house is one of the more reputable, top-tier auction houses—Heritage Auctions is definitely one of them. If they are going to be putting the proper marketing behind your piece, professional photography, if they have an international bidding audience, then after that, it's going to be important to know that you have a comfortable relationship with the representative of that auction house and that they are going to be your advocate, because it's not just the estimate. In fact, the estimate is probably the very least important thing about your piece if you were going to be selling it at auction.  What's more important is what are they going to do for you? Are they going to represent your piece properly? Do they have the right audience for your piece? How many photographs of the piece are going to be taken? Is it going to be up for a public preview? Is it a traveling preview that your piece is going to be placed in? There are many aspects to this that need to be discussed with you as the consignor. Then also, what fees are you going to be charged? There's a lot of ifs. I wish I could give you a more direct answer, but if you were going to me, for example, at Heritage Auctions, I'm going to be exploring all those options with you so that you can make an informed decision.   Sharon: On the Antiques Roadshow, they say very often, "In a well-marketed auction, this would be X-Y-Z price." To me, a well-marketed auction is one that has to advertise. I'd see ads. That's it. What would you consider a well-marketed auction piece or auction?   Gina: Well, Sharon, coming from you, I think that's an excellent question since you are a marketing extraordinaire. These days, marketing is very different, isn't it? We're looking at more the digital aspect of marketing, because so many of us are online now, just like you and I are right now. Being online for marketing is what type of social media presence do you have? What type of email marketing do you have? Also, what is your bidding audience for marketing? How are you able to reach them? Through email, or are you just relying on more conventional forms of auction marketing, be it print advertising or be it public previews? I think in this present market, it's good to have a balance of both. But I am finding that digital marketing is becoming more and more critical.   Sharon: I would believe that. I'm curious, what are the fees involved? Is it the buyer who pays the fees or the auction house that pays the fees to the buyer? I never understood that.   Gina: Again, it depends. As far as the consignor goes, if you have the Hope Diamond, then I imagine that the buyer will have no fees to pay. It is such a highly coveted piece that everybody would be very competitive to have that on the cover of their auction catalog. But in the auction world, with most auction houses, both the buyer and the seller are paying fees. This is how the auction house survives. The fees are going to vary depending on the consignment. How many pieces are you consigning? What is the value of the pieces that you're consigning? That is going to vary. On the buyer end, the fees are very much locked in. I have to tell you, I don't join Heritage Auctions again for another two weeks, so I don't have the most current buyer's fees. But I believe that it is around 25%, give or take, up until a certain amount. Above that, the buyer's premium starts to go down in price. It's tiered depending on the value of the piece, the hammer price of the piece that you are purchasing.   Sharon: Can you negotiate? Let's say you do have the Hope Diamond. What is negotiable? How many pieces you are putting in, but how much you're getting for each piece or reserved prices?   Gina: As a consignor?   Sharon: Yes.   Gina: Fees can be negotiable if you have something important. If it's a lot of work to sell a piece, and by that I mean if you have 100 pieces that are probably going to auction for $1,000 or less, then you will probably pay the full rate because it's a lot of work to sell all those individual pieces for the amount of money that the auction house will receive. It really depends on what you have. But if you have something very important with important provenance like the Hope Diamond, then that's definitely negotiable.    As far as reserves go, reserves are something that the specialist should really set for you. That is something they will suggest to you. You may or may not agree with them, but at the end of the day, once you arrive at an agreed reserve, then that goes into your contract. That is contractual.    Sharon: Can you explain to everybody to make sure we're all on the same page, what is the reserve, what's a consigner, and what's the opposite?   Gina: Yes, the language. The consignor is the person that owns the jewelry. They are the person that is loaning the jewelry to the auction house to give them the opportunity to sell it on behalf of the consignor. So, the consignor owns the piece.    The reserve is the absolute minimum that the piece will hammer for, and hammer means the final bid, the highest bid that someone will pay for at auction. That is the absolute minimum that it will go for at auction. That is the reserve. It is also the opening bid for Heritage Auctions. For example, let's say a piece has an auction estimate of $1,500 to $2,500, and I may suggest to you that the reserve for that piece should be $1,000. The opening bid, the minimum is $1,000, so the bidding begins at that amount. If nobody else bids on that piece except for one person who has bid the reserve, $1,000, that is the price it will hammer for. That is the final sale. Does that make sense?   Sharon: It makes sense. I was wondering how long somebody has to pull the piece back, as they say. If they have the feeling they won't like what the hammer price is, can they pull it back?   Gina: The reserve, that $1,000 for that piece is in their written contract. And in the written contract, they have agreed to allow the auction house to take it through to completion. By the time it is photographed, cataloged, shipped, insured, marketed, the auction house has invested a certain amount of money in that piece. So, if there is a contract, if there is an agreement for the auction house to try and sell this on behalf of the consignor, they have to be allowed to take it through to completion. That is why it is in the contract, because the auction house is investing money in the piece.   Sharon: That makes a lot of sense. Jumping subjects, in jewelry you can do a lot of different things. Why did you decide to become an appraiser? You could have done a lot of things with a GIA, a gemological degree. Why did you decide to become an appraiser?   Gina: That's a great question. For me, I didn't initially plan on becoming an appraiser. I worked in different areas of the jewelry industry. I got my Gemological Diploma. I graduated in 1992. I got my FGA. I worked in retail and then I worked in design. At the time, I was also doing appraisals in Australia. We call them valuations. I was a valuer, but that was something that I did part time. I did what was required at the time. Then I worked for an antiques dealer and was involved in buying and selling of antique and estate jewelry. Then I worked for a manufacturer assisting in the production of jewelry. I worked in different areas of the jewelry industry. Many years later I decided to open my own business, and that business was going to be doing custom design work because I was able to draw, do renderings and was very good with production. The other half of my business was going to be appraisals. I was doing both, and the business pretty much decided for me what I was going to do full time. After I was established, I realized that there was such a demand for an independent appraiser that I had to stop jewelry designing and just focus on the appraisal aspect of it.   Sharon: Why an independent appraiser? I would think that if you go to an auction house, I would like to think it's an independent appraisal. If the appraiser works for the auction house, whether or not they do, it would still be an independent appraisal. Is that true or not?   Gina: Well, to answer that question, we probably need to back up a little bit and define what an appraisal is. An appraisal is a researched opinion of value. In order for me to arrive at a researched opinion of value, I need to know what you, the client, want to do with the information. Are you purchasing insurance for your piece? If that's the case, we need to appraise your piece for what it would cost for you to walk into a store that typically sells that piece of jewelry. We research that market. We research all the stores that typically sell your jewelry. The most common price is what I would appraise it for.    If you are selling that exact same piece of jewelry, that ends up being a different value. So, I have to understand what you want to do with that information. If you, as a private individual, want to sell your piece of jewelry, your options are to sell it at auction, to sell it directly to a dealer or a store that sells pre-owned jewelry, or you could put it online on eBay or one of the online auction platforms yourself as a private individual. In all cases, there is a cost to selling that we have to factor in, and we also have to research what pieces like yours have recently sold at auction. We look at the most common price to arrive at an opinion of resale value. That value is going to be different to what you would pay for it in a retail store.   Sharon: You reminded me that earlier today I happened to be looking at an estate jewelry site and they said, "You can consign your jewelry with us." I thought that was interesting. I wonder, do they pay more for it? Where would we get the most for it? Is there a rule of thumb?   Gina: Well, again, it depends. What type of marketing, what type of audience do they have, what type of track record do they have? I really can't speak to the online vendor you're referring to because I don't know who it is. But basically, you want to sell your jewelry with the company or the platform that has the biggest audience and the best track record, and the ones that are going to do the most in the form of marketing for your piece. And then also you have to look at the cost of selling and take all that into consideration. Who is going to represent your piece in the best possible way?   Sharon: What was the process that you had to go through to become an appraiser once you decided that's what you wanted to do, plus the rendering and the custom design? What did you have to do?   Gina: For me, my skill set is a culmination of having worked in different areas of the industry. Everything that I had done up until the point where I started to appraise independently assisted me in being able to evaluate a piece. Aside from that, having a Gemological Diploma, having experience in different areas of the jewelry industry, having handled thousands and thousands of antique and period pieces of jewelry, having worked for a manufacturer and understanding the process of manufacturing jewelry, understanding the difference between a handmade piece versus a cast, mass produced piece. My past experience helped me with all of that. That's one side of appraisal education, hands-on experience.    The other side is understanding how to write an appraisal report and appraisal theory, which is some of what I was trying to describe to you earlier with some of the questions you posed. For example, understanding the difference between resale value, liquidation value, fair market value, writing an appraisal for the IRS, writing an appraisal as an expert witness for settling a dispute in court. This is all education that you can gain by attending classes with an appraisal organization. Reputable appraisal organizations have what we call principles of value. They teach classes on writing appraisal reports for different reasons. You also need to have a solid foundation in jewelry history. Unfortunately, there's no one path to gaining education in jewelry history. It's something that you acquire through various appraisal conferences and appraisal organizations. It is ongoing. I myself found that there was a serious need for education in jewelry history, so I have developed my own courses and I have been teaching them. I've been teaching 20th century jewelry history to various organizations and also in shorter form for jewelry seminars. This is something that a jewelry appraiser really needs a solid foundation in.   The other part of being an independent jewelry appraiser is not just knowing jewelry history, jewelry theory, jewelry appraisal report writing and jewelry manufacturing, but they also need to understand who all the major jewelry designers are. They need to self-educate by going to those jewelry houses. Cartier, Tiffany and Company, David Webb, Chopard, all the major jewelry designers. Learn who they all are. Learn what is typical of their design. Start handling more and more pieces from these major jewelry designers at auction previews. Attend as many auction previews as you can. Attend as many conferences as you can, as many jewelry shows as you can. The more exposure that an appraiser has, the better an appraiser they will become.   Sharon: So, there's no license or something you can get that teaches you all this, like how to write the reports and the history and whatever else there is involved, which is a lot.   Gina: Yes, it's a lot. It's ongoing. I've been doing this for 35 years now. I'm still learning. I teach it and I'm still learning, and that's why I love it. It's never ending. You can learn the theory of appraisal report writing with an appraisal organization such as the ASA, the American Society of Appraisers, or the NAJA, National Association of Jewelry Appraisers or the ISA. I'm mentioning them all because I'm not showing favoritism for one over another. They all have their strengths. I'm a member of all three, but they all have education they can provide for appraisers.   Then there are organizations like the Accredited Gemologists Association, which I believe is a must because they provide education for the cutting edge of gemology, the latest treatments and techniques that you need to learn. They have conferences twice a year and also online education. Then you should join the American Society of Jewelry Historians so that you can network with other people who are trying to self-educate on jewelry history and become privy to some of the education that they provide.   There are also two major antique jewelry shows that you can attend in the US. One of them is the Miami Antiques Show that is in January, and the other one is the Jewelry Antique Show in Las Vegas at the end of May, early June. I attend the one in Las Vegas every single year. I attend as many jewelry previews as I can and visit many estate jewelry retailers, too. The more that you handle, the more that you inspect, the better you are going to be as an appraiser.   Sharon: What do you look for when you're inspecting and handling these pieces? What do you look for?   Gina: You're training your eye. I'm training my eye. I'm becoming a connoisseur. You can see behind me there are a lot of books there. I do read a lot of books on jewelry design, jewelry designers and jewelry history. Then I go out and look at jewelry from those particular designers, and I look for consistency in how a piece is being made. I look at how that piece has been found. I look at consistency in the design.    For example, if I am looking at pieces of jewelry by an American designer, David Webb, David Webb was very active in the 60s and 70s. He died, I believe, in the late 70s, but his jewelry designs are still being made today from his catalog of designs. He was a very active designer with an enormous collection of renderings. His pieces are still being made, and there's a consistency to how he liked to design his jewelry. His jewelry designs were always very big and bold. They were colorful, or they were very black and white chromatic. He had a way of signing his jewelry. He had certain influences that informed how he designed that jewelry. There was a consistency in all of that.    David Webb always liked to work in yellow gold and platinum. You don't typically see jewelry by David Webb that is white gold and platinum or white gold and yellow gold. It's platinum and yellow gold. That was his choice of metals. So, if you see something that's white gold and yellow gold, already, that's a red flag. But you wouldn't know to look for that unless you're handling a lot of pieces by that particular designer. Cartier, for example, their jewelry was manufactured in Paris, but also some of the jewelry is manufactured in the US. They sign their jewelry in a particular way. They have certain collections that they designed over the decades. Until you start handling more and more pieces by that jewelry house, you would not know how to recognize it unless you're reading the books and cross-referencing. Sharon, I am giving you very long answers to these questions. I hope that it's helping.   Sharon: No, it's interesting. It's making me think of other questions. For instance, you talked about the replicas from David Webb. They're still doing things from the catalog. Would that be worth as much as an original David Webb, as when he was alive, if you had a replica?   Gina: Well, when you say replica, you mean a newer David Webb piece versus an older David Webb piece, right? Because a replica means somebody who is not David Webb has replicated it, has copied it, and that's a different thing. I'm just clarifying for the audience.    Sharon: No, please.  Gina: We're talking about a newer David Webb piece made from the back catalog. I guess it depends on the piece. There are collectors of David Webb jewelry who like to think that they're buying an earlier piece of David Webb jewelry when David Webb was active. But newer David Webb jewelry is still collectible and still very desirable.   Sharon: That's interesting.   We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

What you’ll learn in this episode: How Saudia is preserving her mom Cara Croninger’s legacy Why Cara Croninger’s resin and plastic jewelry was—and still is—groundbreaking How Cara Croninger refined her jewelry making process, and why she didn’t want her pieces to be perfect What it was like to grow up in an artistic family in the heyday of New York’s art jewelry scene How Saudia’s mom and dad influenced her music career today   About Saudia Young Saudia Young is a New York City-born actress/singer and storyteller in theater and film. Born on the Lower East Side and brought up between Tribeca and LA, Young explores the notion of home, love, justice, and identity through her art.   The recently repatriated artist lived in Berlin, Germany, for a long chapter of performing, writing, and producing. The Ameripolitan Awards 2023 Female Rockabilly Singer nominee released her 7" single ‘Noir Rockabilly Blues,’ produced by Lars Vegas-DE and featuring 'The Wobble' on the A and Iggy Pop’s 'Lust for Life' on the B side, in 2017, followed up by her 12” debut ‘Unlovable’ in 2018. The LP was recorded live at Berlin, Germany’s legendary Lightning Recorders.   Young founded a Dark Kabarett and a Rockabilly Noir Blues band in Berlin, co-created the Lost Cabaret and the Schwarze Liste Kabarett theater projects and wrote and produced the award-winning short film The Gallery. While in Berlin, she was cast in the lead voice-over role of Oskar in School for Vampires (the English version of the Hahn Film cartoon series).   Young co-wrote and performed the solo show Sneaker Revolution and is currently writing a theater/film piece about her actor father, Otis Young, and sculptor/designer mom Cara Croninger. Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Saudia's Website Saudia's Instagram Saudia's Youtube   Transcript:   To jewelry lovers, Cara Croninger was a groundbreaking artist whose work was shown at iconic galleries Artwear and Sculpture to Wear. To musician and actress Saudia Young, she was just mom. Today, Saudia is working to preserve her mother’s legacy and secure her place in art jewelry history. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Cara made her pioneering resin jewelry; how Cara’s work evolved with the times; and why Saudia thinks of her mom every time she performs. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.   Today, we’re speaking to my guest, Saudia Young, who is located in Philadelphia. She has an interesting background. Her mother was a very well-known jeweler, and her father was an actor. She was born in New York and grew up between New York and Los Angeles. Welcome back.   Were you aware she was doing this? Were you aware that she went to different galleries, that she didn’t have a sales rep when you were growing up? Were you aware of this?   Saudia: Yeah, of course. There was one point in the 90s where she had a showroom. Tony Goldman and Janet Goldman had a showroom called Fragments, and she was in the showroom for some years. She had different reps throughout her life. Ten Thousand Things was a store. They still exist, and they have incredibly beautiful work. For a while in the Meatpacking District, they had a nice cadre of artists, and my mom was one of the artists. They also did wholesale for her. So, they represented her work to other people.   Sharon: I have a few pieces, just a smattering, but do you have a lot of her work? Do you have an archive of her work?   Saudia: Oh, yeah. That’s part of what I’ve been dealing with. My sister and I have our own personal collections. Throughout the years, my mom collected the best pieces of each group and gave us our personal collections. Then I have basically all the work she left behind when she passed away. I’ve been trying to organize that. There was a big section of it shown at the Aspen Art Museum two years ago for about a year. Jonathan Burger had a show called The Store. My mom’s jewelry and sculptures were in one show. That was really exciting, to have both together. Actually, 14 small sculptures sold during that show and, fingers crossed, about seven pieces will be donated to an institution. I’m not going to say which one. That takes a long time.   Right now, there are pieces that are actively being sold. Lisa Berman—not a family member, just the same last name—from Sculpture to Wear sold some of my mom’s work at her first gallery. She also helped sell some pieces when I came out and was trying to figure out what to do and how to secure the legacy, meaning literally a storage space to hold everything. It's a big responsibility.   Sharon: You’re referring to Lisa Berman.   Saudia: Yeah, who is not your blood relation but of the same name. Obviously, she introduced us and was part of the first interview. She’s consulted with me. She’s another one of the angels. There’s a whole host of people who are still in awe of my mom’s work and in support and cheerleading. It includes Robert Lee Morris.   I’m still trying to figure out what to do with the work to secure the legacy. It is being sold at Studio Hop in Providence, Rhode Island. That’s introducing the work to some people who have not seen it before. It's introducing it to a new audience, which is really nice. Jussara Lee, who used to sell it in Manhattan and is now in Connecticut, has been selling it. Other than that, I have an Artwork Archive website for her so people can see the work. I’m not selling it from that website, but there is a section of it that’s still being sold. Then there’s a section I’m holding in case I can get it accepted into an institution.   Sharon: I remember a few years ago, I fell in love with a bracelet and I didn’t end up getting it. I think it was the first time I ever heard of her, and I thought it was so neat.   Saudia: Yeah, it sold a lot of work. They stopped selling after she passed away. They also had a hard time. Everybody is just recovering now from Covid. A lot of people had a very hard time in the past few years. Some stores closed and sales went down. There were several stores who were carrying her work who have closed since Covid.   Sharon: What did you do to make it through Covid and to have money come in?   Saudia: I cried. I don’t know. I did whatever I could. I was going back and forth between Germany and here. There was a grant in Germany—actually, it wasn’t a grant; it was a loan—but there was a Covid loan they were giving to artists in Germany. Here, I went on unemployment for a while and then I went off it, whatever I could. We all did what we could to survive.   Sharon: That’s very true. I know there were different things we had to do. I agree with you that people are just coming out of it now.   Saudia: And now we have two wars, so it’s like, “Great, thank you.” Can’t catch a break.   Sharon: Which is worse? I don’t know. I guess if you’re in the field over there, it’s worse.   Saudia: Yeah.   Sharon: A lot worse. How does it feel to have a mother who’s mentioned by people you don’t know? You say you’re the daughter and all of a sudden, they say, “Oh, I love your mom,” or “I love her jewelry.”   Saudia: What do you mean? How does it feel?   Sharon: Yeah. If I said, “Oh, I have a really neat bracelet,” and the person says, “I’ve not heard of that person,” how does it feel?   Saudia: First of all, a young man—he’s probably my age. It’s so funny I still think of myself as a teenager. Timothy Reukauf is a stylist. He’s another angel who introduced me to the manager and owner of Screaming Mimis Vintage clothing and jewelry store in New York. When I brought the work, because they brought the work to a vintage show, and they’re showing the work and trying to sell it, she was so enthusiastic and happy and excited. It was nice because it’s an extension of my mom, and I miss my mom. I feel like it’s that, as opposed to anything ego-based. It’s more emotional—now you’re going to get me emotional. But it’s nice to know because I really miss her, and when I hear people loving her work, it’s heartening. It’s heart filling.   Sharon: That’s a good word, heart-filling. I’ve heard different things. It’s Croninger with a hard g. I’ve heard that as Croninger with a soft g. Which one is it?   Saudia: Oh lord, that’s a good one. It’s Cara Croninger with a hard g, but people have called her Croninger with a soft g. People have called her Cara. She’s even called herself Cara, but it’s Cara Lee. Her Michigan name was Cara Lee Croninger, but it depends on who you are. Are you Dutch? Are you German? Are you from New Jersey?   Sharon: Did she support your career as an artist?   Saudia: Do you mean my dreaming? Yeah, she supported me being a dreaming, silly person, definitely. She put me in dance school. She always thought I should be a painter, actually. She’d say, “You should be a painter,” because I had a natural ability to draw and to work with my hands. After being a child laborer with her, I could make things. But all jokes aside, she was very supportive of me being an artist or whatever it was that I wanted to be, political activist or artist. My sister was an architect. She was very supportive of that. She was beloved by a lot of the young artists who were around Dumbo, our friends, our extended family. She was a positive influence, a positive auntie, elder, second mom, to a lot of people.   Sharon: It sounds like it.   Saudia: Yeah. I shared her as a mom figure with a lot of people.   Sharon: Tell us more about your singing. Do you think of her when you sing?   Saudia: Yeah, I think of her with whatever I do, for sure. There’s one song—I think you wrote it down on the question list—It Don’t Mean a Thing (If It Ain’t Got that Swing), doo wop, doo wop, doo wop, doo wop. I think it was Louis Armstrong. She was working on some kind of saying or branding because she was really into the earrings having a nice swing. She coined it when I was helping her make them. The holes had to be big enough so the lyre could be comfortable enough so the earrings could swing. She incorporated that into some of her branding.   But yeah, I listened to a lot of music growing up. She was very into Judy Collins and Kurt Weill, a wild range. She dated one of the Clancy Brothers—they were very into folk music in the 60s—and my dad and her were into soul and Otis Redding and Taj Mahal and Bonnie Raitt. I’m wandering, but yes.   Sharon: What years was she most popular? It seems like she had a real high.   Saudia: I think the 80s. The minute she started doing the resin stuff, she went into Sculpture to Wear, which was a very prestigious gallery. I’d say the early 70s through the 80s. Then Artwear closed and she was on her own. She did really well in the 90s as well. She was pretty prolific, but I think the 80s were the time when there were tons and tons of fashion articles and fashion shoots with all the supermodels of that time.   Sharon: Talk about wandering, because I’m looking at my list of questions. Tell us how you were involved in making her jewelry. You told us a little bit, but did you ever cut the hearts?   Saudia: The hearts were made in molds. She created molds and poured, and then we would open the rubber molds. I would help sand. I would help drill holes. I can drill a hole. I would help with polishing. Like I said, I would help with finishing work and stringing cords on the hearts. Trying to influence her businesswise, she was not having it.   Sharon: Would she say, “That color doesn’t look better in the green. It looks better in the purple,” or something that?   Saudia: No, not really because once something is poured, it’s a done deal. That would be like, after you’ve made 500 brownies, saying, “I wish we had blueberry muffins.” It’s too late now.   Sharon: She could say, “Well, you can have it then, and I’ll try and sell the purple one,” or something.   Saudia: No, the work was too labor-intensive. Once things were made, you really needed to get them out there. They were like donuts in a way. You need to get them out so they don’t go stale. Keep the energy, keep them moving. The only thing she was conflicted about was pricing. There was a point in jewelry where everything—remember when the Y necklaces came out? Everything was really tiny. There was a point where it was trendy to have really tiny jewelry, and that freaked her out because her work was so big and sculptural. She would get freaked out about that kind of stuff. The editors loved her work because it was big and you could see it. It went incredibly with beautiful clothes like Issey Miyake and these avant garde designers. The tiny stuff, you can’t see it in an editorial. It’s so funny; you’ll have a cover article and it’ll be like, “Earrings by whomever,” and I’m like, “Where are they? What earrings?”   Sharon: That’s interesting. Miyake or Yohji Yamamoto, they’re high-end, but they’ve become very—they’re not that valued anymore.   Saudia: Now they’re mainstream, yeah.   Sharon: Do you think your mother’s jewelry would be considered avant garde today?   Saudia: Yeah, it still is in a way because of the designs and the fact that it was really handmade. She was making her own work. Maybe Lisa would call that studio jewelry. She was in her studio making it herself. She did have a short relationship with a company in Japan where they were making work that would only be sold there. It was fine, but you could really see the difference and feel the difference. It wasn’t Cara. It wasn’t special, unfortunately. We’re grateful that they did it, that she had that relationship and that we could go to Japan and travel there. That was awesome.   So, I think she was avant garde as an artist. I don’t agree that Yohji is no longer avant garde. His designs are so beautiful. He’s really focused on craftsmanship, having amazing makers creating his work. In a way that is avant garde, as opposed to crap being made. You know what I mean?   Sharon: You’re right, 100%.   Saudia: In a factory.   Sharon: I can’t think of another one, but there are a lot of designers whose work you can’t afford—I’m talking about clothing—who have developed their own less expensive lines.   Saudia: Yeah. I remember when they would call it the junior line, and it would be for the younger kids. It would be lighter and cheaper and faster and funnier and all that. Now there are lots of layers of that, but you have these throwaway clothes being made by companies like H&M and so forth.   Sharon: Do you think she would fit in, like she’d make a smaller version of something that she made large?   Saudia: She did do some smaller things when she was working with the Japanese company. That led her into making some tiny silver hearts and medium-size silver. Then she had to do her big pieces. She could not let go of her love affair with big, sculptural pieces. I think she was conflicted about the McDonaldizing of fashion and accessories. Of course, she wanted to put food on the table, but she was really conscious of the environment. Even though she was working in plastics, she was very conscious of workers and workers’ rights. Where does something come from? How is it made, and what’s the impact of it being made?   Sharon: It sounds like she carried that through the 80s, into the 90s, into today.   Saudia: Definitely. She definitely had something to do with me being political, her and my father. She was very righteous.   Sharon: I know you do cabaret and rockabilly. What else do you do? What do you sing?   Saudia: My main focus is mental health. It’s a really hard time right now, I feel, but I think it’s actually a good time to continue to do the rockabilly, but to circle back to the dark cabaret I was doing before the rockabilly. So, I’m working on that. I’m working with a few musicians here in Philly, and I have some shows with musicians in other parts of the country. For Thanksgiving, I’m going to be in Illinois with Patrick Jones and 3 On The Tree. It’s a band. We’re going to do a rockabilly Thanksgiving tour. Then in March, I’ll be in California, in Orange County.   Sharon: Doing what?   Saudia: Doing rockabilly with The Hi-Jivers and Abby Girl. In Orange County, we’re going to do just a rockabilly R&B show. Then in April, I’ll be with Viva Las Vegas again, which is a rockabilly weekend. I’ll do an R&B show and rockabilly. In between, I’m just trying to stay sane, make a living, take care of my mom’s work, tell her story. I’m supposedly writing a story about my mom and my dad, sort of a solo show. I don’t know if it’s a solo show or a documentary, but it’s about their relationship as an interracial couple in the 60s and an interracial artist couple.   Sharon: That’ll be very interesting   Saudia: They were both known as being difficult people, but most artists are in a way. It takes a lot of energy to do that work, so you can ruffle a lot of feathers. So, that’s what I’m doing.   Sharon: I hope I’ll get to meet you then. Thank you so much. This was very interesting.   Saudia: Thank you so much. Sharon: Thank you. Well will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey. She would always think about, “What am I going to pour?” It might be a ruby red, which was really popular and beautiful. One of the most popular pours, I think I said in the last interview, was the black and white, where she would have black and white and it would come out in a striped formation. Then she would pour into her different molds, the bangles, the C cuffs, the earrings.   Just as important as the colors were the processes. For the slice earrings, she would pour the layers so it would be striped into a block like a loaf of bread, a small, little, long brownie. Then she would slice it on a bandsaw and you would get to see the stripes. Part of her process was the actual cutting, carving, sanding to get the shapes, and then making the decision whether she was going to have them polished or matte without polish.   Sharon: A mask?   Saudia: Matte, sorry. What the finish would be. If she had faceted bangles or hearts or whatever, she was very aware of not making anything perfect. She used the fact that it had scratches to show the layers of work and to show that it’s made by a human. It wasn’t something that needed to be absolutely perfect. She was very into wabi sabi, the Japanese art of the imperfect. She loved wavy shapes and asymmetry in her designs.   Sharon: Who did the selling for the first years, when you were getting it off the ground?   Saudia: I was a kid, so I wasn’t going to get it off the ground. I was just eating the food she was putting in the refrigerator. When she first started with the leatherwork, she was just going around to different boutiques in the Village or whatever and selling them, either having them buy it straight out or on consignment. I think one of the worker’s galleries was the original Sculpture to Wear. That was near where MAD Museum is right now. I’m forgetting the name of the hotel. That was one of her galleries. I’m sure there were other stores I don’t know about.   That was in 1971 or something like that. That was very close to when she started working in plastic. She got taken in and accepted really quickly. At that time, Robert Lee Morris was also selling at Sculpture to Wear. He was a wunderkind. He was opening up his own gallery, Artwear, and brought my mother into that gallery. During that time, that also gave the artists recognition and amplified their voices. They were able to have their work in stores in Boston and in California because of being in Artwear.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.    

What you’ll learn in this episode: How Saudia is preserving her mom Cara Croninger’s legacy Why Cara Croninger’s resin and plastic jewelry was—and still is—groundbreaking How Cara Croninger refined her jewelry making process, and why she didn’t want her pieces to be perfect What it was like to grow up in an artistic family in the heyday of New York’s art jewelry scene How Saudia’s mom and dad influenced her music career today   About Saudia Young Saudia Young is a New York City-born actress/singer and storyteller in theater and film. Born on the Lower East Side and brought up between Tribeca and LA, Young explores the notion of home, love, justice, and identity through her art.   The recently repatriated artist lived in Berlin, Germany, for a long chapter of performing, writing, and producing. The Ameripolitan Awards 2023 Female Rockabilly Singer nominee released her 7" single ‘Noir Rockabilly Blues,’ produced by Lars Vegas-DE and featuring 'The Wobble' on the A and Iggy Pop’s 'Lust for Life' on the B side, in 2017, followed up by her 12” debut ‘Unlovable’ in 2018. The LP was recorded live at Berlin, Germany’s legendary Lightning Recorders.   Young founded a Dark Kabarett and a Rockabilly Noir Blues band in Berlin, co-created the Lost Cabaret and the Schwarze Liste Kabarett theater projects and wrote and produced the award-winning short film The Gallery. While in Berlin, she was cast in the lead voice-over role of Oskar in School for Vampires (the English version of the Hahn Film cartoon series).   Young co-wrote and performed the solo show Sneaker Revolution and is currently writing a theater/film piece about her actor father, Otis Young, and sculptor/designer mom Cara Croninger. Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Saudia's Website Saudia's Instagram Saudia's Youtube   Transcript:   To jewelry lovers, Cara Croninger was a groundbreaking artist whose work was shown at iconic galleries Artwear and Sculpture to Wear. To musician and actress Saudia Young, she was just mom. Today, Saudia is working to preserve her mother’s legacy and secure her place in art jewelry history. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Cara made her pioneering resin jewelry; how Cara’s work evolved with the times; and why Saudia thinks of her mom every time she performs. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.   Today, we’re speaking to my guest, Saudia Young, who is located in Philadelphia. She has an interesting background. Her mother was a very well-known jeweler, and her father was an actor. She was born in New York and grew up between New York and Los Angeles. She is New York material. You will be surprised to hear that she developed a career as an actress, a writer and a singer. She’s described as having a whisky voice, and I think that’s true, a caramel whisky voice. She was a nominee in 2023.   Saudia: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really glad to come on to your show for the second time. It was the Ameripolitan Music Awards. I was simply nominated for female rockabilly singer. There are lots of different categories and full bands. Jane Rose won for the rockabilly female singer that year. They’re moving on, but it was very exciting to come after 15 years in Germany to participate in that. I’ve met a lot of awesome people because of that.   Sharon: I know you’ve lived in several places, but I didn’t know for 15 years, you say, in Berlin?   Saudia: Yes.   Sharon: Wow! Now you’re in Philadelphia this evening.   Saudia: Yes.   Sharon: Is that your home?   Saudia: It is for now. It’s where my sister lives. I have a sister from my mother and my father. He had other children, so that’s why I clarify that. I’m spending some time with my sister. I’ve been back and forth in the States since my mom passed in 2019. I’m honestly trying to figure out where I’m going to live. It’s not clear because of Covid and my mom passing, but it’s been a lot.   Sharon: 15 years being in one place.   Saudia: Yeah, so I’m here for now. I feel like I can’t commit to saying this is my home. It’s like, “Let’s see what it brings. Let’s see what happens.” It’s great to hang out with my sister. I’m close to my mom’s work, which is stored now in Hackensack, New Jersey. I moved it from New York. My mom’s work has had more of a tour than I have.   Sharon: Cara Croninger is your mom’s name. Even though she passed—I’m very sorry to hear that—she’s still very well-known. She has an exhibit in the Smithsonian?   Saudia: No, it’s simply her papers, photographs, articles, fashion editorials. As you know, she bridged fashion and art. She was in both worlds. She had a toe or a foot or whatever in both worlds, so she has been accepted into the Archives of American Art at the Smithsonian. That means they have letters, her correspondence to other artists and gallerists and whomever, any type of reviews, sketches, all her boxes of papers and some photographs. It’s an honor. It was sad to let that go, but it’s also awesome because that means it’s helping to secure her legacy.   It will eventually be uploaded digitally so people will be able to look at it. You can go into the archives and look up different artists and see their papers. For example, one of my favorite things were letters from Floriana Frassetto, who founded Mummenschanz and was one of her best friends. She always wrote these beautiful letters to her. She would call her Cara Mia. She was Swiss-Italian. So, it’s just that, showing the ephemeral items in her life.   Sharon: You’ve been on this program before. You were among our first guests—   Saudia: Yeah.   Sharon: If you want to listen to it, it’s on TheJewelryJourney.com. We’re so glad to have you back again.   Saudia: Thank you.   Sharon: Tell me why your mom’s jewelry was different. What was the breakthrough? Why are they keeping her papers?   Saudia: I think because of that bridge. She wasn’t craft. She came as a sculptor. Her jewelry was made of acrylic and polyester resin, although she did work in other materials like metals. She started off painting, but the work was always very sculptural and almost avant garde. It went from very organic and indigenous and African influenced to futuristic. It was solidly in the art world, but also solidly in the fashion world when she was with Robert Lee Morris’ gallery, Artwear, and before that, Sculpture to Wear.   Artwear blew up and it was very, very popular in the press and in fashion magazines. All the top models were wearing it. People like Iman would come to the gallery openings. It was part of that whole exciting time in the 80s in New York, seeping a little bit into the 90s, but mostly in the 80s. It was in the late 70s and throughout the 80s that they had their heyday. There were other artists in this gallery that are now working and very well-known, like Ted Muehling, Robert Lee Morris himself. Carol Motty, may she rest in peace, was a very, very good friend of my mom. She worked in silicone.   Sharon: I’m sorry. I don’t know her.   Saudia: Carol Motty. She did wild, neon-colored, awesome pieces in silicone rubber. She was unique in that it literally was a bridge of art and fashion. That’s what she built. I think that was her significance. In terms of the materials, the pieces cost anywhere from $40 to $4,000 or more. She raised the level of this material, which is plastic resin and acrylic, polyester resin, to a very high level. It would get the same price that silver and gold and gemstone jewels would get because of the beauty, the workmanship, that she put into it. The work is known for having this sensual beauty. A lot of the pieces have a wonderful weight. They have a talisman magic to them. People often will collect the pieces. You even collected some pieces.   Sharon: Yeah, I did. I love them.   Saudia: It’s kind of magic. She herself as a person was a beautiful, down-to-earth, but funny and effervescent person. People loved meeting her. They loved collecting the work.   Sharon: What was the role you and your sister played?   Saudia: We were her daughters. We did help make work. There were points where we learned how to do the finishing work. We never did the pouring, creating the pigments or the molds, but we could help with finishing. We’d be her child laborers and work on the sanding machine or polishing or drilling holes or what have you. We were able to do finishing work. Because we grew up with it, we understood the shapes and her style, but even growing up with it, there was always some kind of tension. She would say, “That’s your style. That’s not mine.” It wasn’t easy because it was so organic and very unique. That made it hard for her to have people work for her.   Sharon: When you would attend these parties or an opening night at the galleries, did you know who the celebrities of the day were? Were you aware?   Saudia: Yeah, I was in my early 20s or so. At one point, my sister and I both worked at Artwear. We were both looking forward to working with Robert. That was always really fun. Even the artists were celebrities to us because they were so talented and vivacious and positive. I knew a lot of the models, the supermodels, Pat Cleveland and whomever, but since my dad was an actor, I grew up already having certain people in my life. I was trained for that to be not that big of a deal because I just grew up in that.   When my parents met, they were in the Village in the 60s. James Baldwin was a good friend of my dad, and he was allegedly my godfather. It was a smaller world in a way. Definitely, the 60s and even the 80s feel like a more innocent time than now for some reason. I met different celebrities just on my own, and you felt like they were New Yorkers. I knew Jean-Michel Basquiat and I was like, “He’s just a kid.” I had no clue.   Sharon: Wow! So, this wasn’t a new milieu to you. You knew the big names—I would call them big names—who would come over for dinner. They were around you.   Saudia: Yeah, but it wasn’t—now we’re going back even before Artwear. It was normal to me. I didn’t notice it. It was just part of being a kid in New York, a kid of artists. You know what I mean?   Sharon: But your mother was making this jewelry that I would call groundbreaking. Today we look at it and go, “Oh, it’s a piece of plastic,” but it was groundbreaking then.   Saudia: Yeah, it was definitely groundbreaking. I think it still is because there are few people who can work in it, like Patricia von Musulin, who’s an amazing artist who works with acrylics. There are some people who can work with it. There’s Alexis Bittar, who borrowed a lot of designs from my mom. There are people who can work with it and it’s beautiful, but often you see stuff that’s mass produced overseas. It doesn’t have a good feeling; it just feels cheap. Her work still has this magic weight to it. But as I said, as kids, we didn’t know. It was just, “My mom’s an artist. She’s working at her studio making her stuff.”   Sharon: Was her studio a separate place or was it where you lived?   Saudia: She had many different studios. She had a shared space in Gowanus in Brooklyn, a huge foundry that had 80-foot ceilings that she shared with approximately five other artists. Now, I’m jumping back and forth with timelines. I’m not great with timelines. She had a studio in Dumbo, Brooklyn, at 68 Jay, which was a 2,000-square-foot, awesome studio that she lived in illegally. Our formative years when we were little were on the Lower East Side, but we lived in Tribeca when it was still very industrial. We first started off on Washington Street in an apartment. I think it was a three-bedroom apartment that I recently got to visit again, which was amazing.   She cordoned off a little section of that Astor studio, and then what happened? O.K., when we were at Washington Street, she was able to be one of the resident artists in the Clocktower, which was a studio project where Alanna Heiss was organizing unusual spaces for artists to either create their work or show their work. My mom was one of several artists who were in the Clocktower. That’s where she actually met the artist who showed her how to work with plastics. I don’t know what his name was.   Sharon: So, she wasn’t working with plastic until she met these people?   Saudia: Yeah. She started off painting and doing leatherwork, painting on leather, sewing leather bags, fringe work, Japanese-style obi belts. That’s what she started doing first in terms of accessories and crafts.   Sharon: Did your friends know she was a big name, let’s say?   Saudia: No, we were all pretty clueless. A lot of our friends were kids of painters. We related to them as workers, like this is what they did for their work. My mom was the lady who made great bread. She made homemade bread, and she made great chicken. People would come over and eat. She was a very social person. We had extended family members, but I don’t think my friends thought of her as that famous, not really.   Sharon: I was going to ask you why she wouldn’t let you pour, but that made her work. That’s her name.   Saudia: I didn’t have any desire to pour. As a teenagers, at 18? No desire. I was off doing my own thing. I had my own ways of expressing and my own life. That was her thing.   Sharon: What colors did she like? I’ve seen some pieces, but I know she had a whole range.   Saudia: She worked in an amazing array of colors. She loved vibrant primary colors. She also worked in colors that were more organic, that were reminiscent of ivory or amber. She would do pours. I think we spoke about this. She would do a pour about once a year. It was always a big deal for her to get the emotional wherewithal to do a pour. Also, I think she was aware of the toxicity. She only wanted to pour during the summer, when the windows could be open and the heat would help the plastic pour faster.