Episode 492: #398 - Selling Lighting Without Rebates

Our old friend Mark Jewell joins us to talk about selling in the lighting industry—especially as rebates begin to dry up. A lot of people are worried about what the end of rebate programs will mean for project sales. Mark says we shouldn’t be. Michael and Greg aren’t so sure. In this episode, Mark talks us down off the “rebate ledge” with some sensible math. Rebates are great, but they’re not the only reason to upgrade. With real-world examples, he explains how energy savings, increased building value, and improved worker performance—think efficiency, accuracy, and morale—can still make a strong business case for retrofits. And if you manage a mall, you’ll want to hear Mark’s take on why it TOTALLY makes sense to upgrade your parking lot lighting—rebates or not.Mark is an award-winning trainer and Wall Street Journal best-selling author with 30 years’ experience in energy and efficiency. Over those three decades, Mark Jewell has taught more than 15,000 energy professionals and influenced efficiency decisions in more than three billion square feet of North American real estate. Earlier in his career, Mark helped the US EPA deploy both the ENERGY STAR® Buildings Program for Commercial Real Estate and the Portfolio Manager® benchmarking tool.Prior to founding Selling Energy, Mark Jewell served as founder and President of a consulting firm that identified energy-saving improvements, provided financial analyses to justify said improvements, and supported utilities and customers in the creation and implementation of efficiency programs. Mark received his B.S. in Economics from The Wharton School of Finance and Commerce at the University of Pennsylvania.

For this episode, we hoped to welcome Brian Bastien of Product Care Recycling to discuss Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) Programs and their impact on the lighting industry. The President of NAILD reached out—non-profit to non-profit—to open a conversation about how these programs support sustainability and what they mean for lighting distributors.  Surprisingly, every expert we invited declined the opportunity to join us. That’s a first for us, as the lighting industry has always been generous with its time. Mr. Bastien was the only one to formally respond, mailing a letter to the President of NAILD stating that his schedule was completely full—now and in the future—due to the demands of EPR.  We certainly understand that time is valuable, especially when overseeing such a critical initiative. That said, lighting distributors are a key stakeholder group, and Get a Grip on Lighting is proud to serve as the official podcast of NAILD—North America’s only trade association dedicated exclusively to lighting distributors. Given that the industry contributes significant funding to Product Care Recycling, we believe it would be beneficial to have an open discussion about the role and value of EPR in lighting.  So, while this episode won’t feature Mr. Bastien, we’re still diving into the topic. Our goal is simple: to better understand EPR, its benefits, and its challenges. We sincerely hope to have the opportunity to speak with Mr. Bastien—or another representative from Product Care Recycling—at some point in the future.  We think a 30–45 minute conversation would go a long way in helping everyone gain clarity on this important issue.

Jason knows so much about lighting that he wrote 2 books on the subject (see below). Jason chats with Michael and Greg about his books, wasteful lighting fixtures, the circular economy, and wired and wireless controls. And for pete's sake, don’t go with flat panels if there are better choices. Jason Livingston LC, IES, IALD is the principal of Studio T+L, a lighting design and theatre planning firm in Brooklyn, NY.  His lighting design portfolio ranges from offices to churches and from theatres to experiential environments.  In addition to his design work, Mr. Livingston is the co-chair of the IES Color Committee and is on the faculty of New York School of Interior Design and New York University.  He is also the author of Designing with Light: The Art Science and Practice of Architectural Lighting Design, 2nd Ed. and Fundamentals of Energy Efficient Lighting and Controls.  Mr. Livingston is a frequent speaker on lighting design and color related topics, especially color rendering and ANSI/IES TM-30. Connect with Jason:https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-livingston-3267271a/www.studio-tl.comBlog associated with my two books:  www.designinglight.com Jason's books:Fundamentals of Energy Efficient Lighting and Controlshttps://amzn.to/41kD7xdhttps://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fundamentals-of-energy-efficient-lighting-and-controls-jason-livingston/1146628605?ean=9788770042369https://www.routledge.com/Fundamentals-of-Energy-Efficient-Lighting-and-Controls/Livingston/p/book/9788770042369?srsltid=AfmBOoqN7XXqHd4NokPQ2j0INufQ4eF6y5qiBypSOM8_D-E5Dv3drFCc Designing with Light: The Art, Science, and Practice of Architectural Lighting Design 2nd Editionhttps://a.co/d/al45bg7https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/designing-with-light-jason-livingston/1118231097?ean=9781119807780https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Designing+with+Light:+The+Art,+Science,+and+Practice+of+Architectural+Lighting+Design,+2nd+Edition-p-9781119807797

You’ve seen Dr. Motta on Restoring Darkness (https://restoringdarkness.com/episode/120-blue-light-leds-are-an-immune-suppressor-proven-to-cause-cancer-dr-mario-motta) now he’s on Get a Grip on Lighting to tell you about the hazards of blue-rich LED’s. No matter how some might push back, the evidence is irrefutable: blue light LED’s suppress melatonin which can lead to cancer. When Dr. Motta’s and the American Medical Association’s report was released in 2016, the Lighting Deep State was “not polite” in their rebuttal. But it seems they have come around in recent years. Dr. Motta had been in practice at North Shore Medical Center in Salem, Massachusetts, since 1983, recently retiring in 2022. He is a graduate of Boston College, with a BS in physics and biology, and of Tufts Medical School. He is board certified in Internal medicine and Cardiology, and is a fellow of the American College of Cardiology, and of the American Society of Nuclear Cardiology. He is an associate professor of medicine at Tufts University School of Medicine. Dr. Motta has long been active in organized medicine, both in the American Medical Association (AMA) and in the Massachusetts Medical Society (MMS), holding a number of posts through the years. He is a past President of the MMS. He was elected and served 8 years on the AMA council of Science and Public Health, and then was elected to the Board of Trustees of the AMA in 2018, recently completing his term. In May of 2023 at its annual meeting, the MMS awarded Dr Motta its highest honor, the “Award for Distinguished Service.” Dr Motta also has a lifelong interest in astronomy, and has hand built a number of telescopes and observatories through the years to do astronomical research, including his entirely homemade 32 inch F6 relay telescope located in Gloucester, MA. He has been awarded several national awards in astronomy, including the Las Cumbras award from the Astronomical Society of the Pacific in 2003, and also the Walter Scott Houston award from the northeast section of the Astronomical League, and in 2017 the Henry Olcott Award from the American Association of Variable star Observers (AAVSO). He has served as a president of the ATM’s of Boston, and has served as a council member of the AAVSO, and is a past president as well. He has also served on the Board of the IDA. He has worked on light pollution issues, and published several white papers on LP as a member of the AMA council of science and public health. He served on a UN committee (COPUOS) representing the AMA on light pollution for a worldwide effort to control LP and satellite proliferation. Finally, several years ago the International Astronomical Union awarded Dr Motta an asteroid in part for his work on light pollution as well as amateur research, asteroid 133537MarioMotta. Connect with Dr. Motta: www.mariomottamd.com Connect with The Soft Lights Foundation: www.softlights.org

Put your preconceptions and biases aside, Mark baker is going to point the finger a little in this episode. LED’s can be harmful to humans - Mark being one of them - and the industry needs to recognize this, step up, and address the problem. Admittedly, as Michael says, the lighting industry got steamrolled by the LED revolution, but now it’s time to get back up on our feet and to be a part of the solution.Mark Baker is the President of The Soft Light Foundation, a non-profit organization that advocates for the protection of people and the environment from the harms of visible radiation emitted by products that use Light Emitting Diodes. Mark is the primary author of a primer on the differences between a curved surface emitter and a flat surface emitter.  His co-authors include subject matter experts in the fields of physics, engineering, medicine, and light pollution.

Jeffrey brings a lot of experience to his position as Divisional Vice President in the NEMRA Lighting Division. This division was formed recently when AAILA, the American Association of Independent Lighting Agencies, was integrated into NEMRA. Michael points out that in the past, he has seen lighting nonprofits absorbed into electrical associations where they have become very secondary. Jeffrey points out that NEMRA’s goal is to strengthen that division. So everybody wins. Jeff Bristol is the Divisional Vice President of the newly formed NEMRA Lighting Division, bringing over 30 years of experience in sales, marketing, and executive leadership within the lighting and controls industry. Before joining NEMRA, he served as Senior Vice President of Sales and Marketing for MaxLite, where he developed and executed strategies across multiple business units and managed a network of over 40 agents. His career also includes leadership roles at Panasonic/Universal Lighting Technologies, Philips Lighting, Osram Sylvania, and Westinghouse Lighting. Throughout his career, Jeff has built strong partnerships across the agent landscape, including with NEMRA agents, C&I Lighting agents, and Specification Lighting Agents, fostering seamless networks to drive business growth. In his role at NEMRA, Jeff focuses on supporting members, advancing industry standards, and fostering collaboration between manufacturers and representatives. His leadership aims to strengthen the division's mission and provide representatives with the tools and resources needed to thrive in an evolving lighting industry. Connect with Jeffrey: www.nemra.org/benefits-and-resources/nemra-lighting linkedin.com/showcase/nemra-lighting-division linkedin.com/in/jeffreybristol Sponsor: Keystone www.keystonetech.com 

Hey distributors. Are you selling emergency lighting? If not, this episode with Heather McCune might change your mind. Barron has seen ROI of under a year with their Exitronix Guardian G3 on all their retrofit jobs. This system reduces maintenance, labor hours, and interruptions to building power during testing. It can even self-test and back up the data so you’ll have proof of testing for those surprise safety inspections. Heather McCune is a dynamic and experienced leader in the lighting industry. With twenty years of expertise, she brings knowledge and creativity to her role as Vice President, Sales Operations at Barron Lighting Group. Her dedication and commitment are evident as she works closely with the Marketing, Brand and Engineering teams to ensure success in today's sales landscape. As Vice President, Sales Operations, Heather oversees sales productivity and effectiveness for Barron. This includes strategic planning, reporting, quota setting, management, sales process optimization, and training programs. She also plays a vital role in recruiting top talent. Heather's leadership and strong partnerships have led to Barron's continued sales success. Heather has shaped Barron Lighting Group into a company known for integrity, innovation, and quality products. With her drive and track record, it's no wonder she excels as Vice President, Sales Operations at a leading lighting company. 

Jason wants it all - now. But he also says, be careful what you wish for. In this competitive environment, don’t just take any job. Jason is competitive and doesn’t like to lose but, as he says, you don’t want to win a race to the bottom. Then the only way you’re going to make money is if all the stars align and nothing goes wrong on the project. So despite the title, there are some things you don’t want. Over the last 19 years Jason has been a leader in providing turn-key retrofits amounting to millions of dollars’ worth of energy saving that have also garnered millions in incentive money for clients across Ontario. Jason has also provided educational seminars for George Brown College, ACMO RCM training, Tradeshow seminars etc. Jason has been a Trailblazer in the multi-residential energy retrofit market being one of the first to introduce Occupancy sensor technology in parking garages over 17 years ago.

As of this recording, the US has backed off on tariffs, for now. But they still loom as a possibility sometime in the future. Michael gives his perspective from the viewpoint of Canada, while Greg and Spencer look at it from a “what’s best for America” standpoint. Can’t we all just get along? Spencer Miles first appeared on Get a Grip On Lighting way back in 2017 on episode #4. He is the President of Pacific Lamp and Supply Company where he has worked for 24 years of Pacific Lamp’s over 100 years of business. Spencer served as NAILD’s President in 2019. 

You’ve heard him on Monday mornings. You’ve seen his work quarterly. We pull back the curtain on Scott Wachter to take a look behind the scenes at his work on the Lighting Industry News Brief, Today’s Lighting Distributor, and The Darkness News Update (on RestoringDarkness.com). Beyond his work as the best-informed person in the lighting industry, he’s part of the content management team; keeping the social feeds up to date, co-authoring Today’s Lighting Distributor, developing courses for LS Evolve, the recent revamp of LS-2, and developing the new DS-1 course. Other notable things about Scott: Has never sold a lamp or fixture. Wrote his senior thesis on the value of apologies in situations of bad moral luck. His recent, unrelated podcast The Recap from Mercury was the Number 1 on the Apple Podcasts Animation Charts in Brazil (top 20 in Japan). He once entered a stand-up comedy contest as it was running because the other comics were so bad, improvising a winning 5-minute set. He once got in a fistfight with a bouncer at the bar he worked at. Scott was once threatened with a lawsuit over cupcake recipes. He makes the best gin gimlet you have ever had. No one drinks gin gimlets. His favorite color is blue. He has the nicest hair in NAILD. He should probably get a new headshot; this one is 11 years old.