Matrescence: Unraveling the Myths and Realities of Being a Mother

In this special bonus episode of the For the Love Podcast, Jen sits down with her literary hero — beloved author and teacher, Anne Lamott, whose candid, humorous writing has inspired millions to embrace their imperfect selves. Anne and Jen explore the hard-won wisdom distilled across Anne's 45-year career and 20 books - from finding radical self-love after a lifetime of shame, to surrendering to life's ordinary miracles during periods of existential crisis. With refreshing irreverence, Anne shares her lessons on unearthing your deepest, truest voice and faith that new paths are waiting, even when the way forward feels hopelessly obscured. Jen and Anne discuss The importance of radical self-love, letting go of shame, and being your own priority before trying to please or gain approval from others Having faith that there is a "shape" or path waiting for you, even if you can't see it yet, by surrendering and doing the work of self-examination The wisdom that comes with age in realizing how little you know The way small, mundane acts can be profound expressions of love and service to buoy you during dark periods For anyone who has ever felt cracked by life's circumstances, Anne's perspective provides a roadmap back to wholeness. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “[I've been] giving myself deeper and deeper permission to use my own voice and to stop trying to get people to like or respect me or to think I'm more educated than I am--which I'm not at all educated--and to just get kind of cleaner in my own being so that I could write the deepest I could go in my own truest voice and just get that day's work done one day at a time. It's like nautilus for the soul. To keep writing your truth with your own weird, quirky, way of expressing yourself and being affirmed that people seem to like it and to keep going.” - Anne Lamott "What love manifests is making more mistakes. Knowing as a writer, that a pile of papers and notes and index cards is a fertile field, and you don't need to know what you're going to do with them. They know what you're going to do with them. The material knows what you're going to do with it, and it's going to get back to you as it trusts more and more that you're a reliable narrator." - Anne Lamott “We do some deep dive into the obstacles to radical self-love and to just surrendering to the path of goodness or God or the holiness. The first thing God says to Moses is 'take off your shoes. Feel the earth beneath your feet. This is holy ground.' And that is what God has for you, starting right now. Take off your shoes and wiggle your toes in the earth. Look up. Breathe in. And when you are restored from what you've been through, all this nautilus for your soul you've been doing, you're going to step forward into that shape.” - Anne Lamott Resources Mentioned in this Bonus Episode:  Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life - https://bit.ly/3K1JZGg Somehow: Thoughts on Love by Anne Lamott - https://bit.ly/3ytWzeK The American Way of Death by Jessica Mitford - https://bit.ly/3JZCP5s Hard Laughter: A Novel by Anne Lamott - https://bit.ly/4bFcO7b Five Rules of Being a Grown-Up (Article by CJ Green) - https://bit.ly/4bXbmxl 8 Best Anne Lamott Books -https://bit.ly/3yoWbyj Guest Links: Twitter - https://twitter.com/annelamott/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/AnneLamott/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/annelamott/ Penguin Random House - https://sites.prh.com/annelamott Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy.  Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jen Hatmaker revisits one of the most impactful and downloaded episodes from her "For the Love" podcast's 7-year history. In this powerful encore, she has a candid conversation with acclaimed writer and speaker Jonathan Merritt who publicly comes out as gay for the first time during their interview. Jen and Jonathan reflect on their intertwined journeys - she as an ally leaving the evangelical world, he as a prominent faith voice reckoning with his sexuality. Brace yourself for an emotional, insightful look at the joy and pain of Jonathan's coming out experience. This is one powerhouse episode you won't want to miss again (or for the first time!). * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I had a choice. I could either leave the idea of being loved in that way and loving in that way behind and to get belonging and acceptance, or I could choose to be rejected by the people that I was given as a family and a faith community and I could go off on my own way and try to find love. And that's a tough decision.” – Jonathan Merritt  “I'd grown up hearing this, ‘we hate the sin, we love the sinner.’ And yet, everywhere I looked was all this sin-hate. And there was no marking of loving these people.” – Jonathan Merritt “The number one reason that someone changes their views on homosexuality or same-sex marriage is how they answer the question, ‘Do you have a close family member or friend who is gay?’” – Jonathan Merritt “I live in an Episcopal seminary. You feel hundreds of years of prayers that have been prayed here by good people. People who joined the Civil Rights Movement. And people who were marching after the Stonewall Riots. And people who did it because they loved Jesus and not in spite of that fact.” – Jonathan Merritt "American evangelicalism is predicated on the existence of an enemy to fight, and that keeps people coming to church. It's the need to be against, right? And people revel in that, that's the selling point." – Jonathan Merritt Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Love is the Game Changer of Our Faith: Bishop Michael Curry - https://bit.ly/3BQ2FUl How to Create a Politics of Love: Lisa Sharon Harper - https://bit.ly/3IdV3gW Jen Hatmaker: Trump, Black Lives Matter, Gay Marriage & More - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3IhrUS0 Christian Rock Star Comes Out as Gay in Letter to the World - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3siB9Ms Eugene Peterson on Changing His Mind About Same-Sex Issues and Marriage - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3LXWlyX Leading Evangelical Ethicist is now Pro-LGBT (David Gushee) - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3LVOTUV A Faith of Our Own: Following Jesus Beyond the Culture Wars - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3Vvj8J6 Dr. Michael Lindsay - Sociologist & Author - https://www.taylor.edu/about/president-profile James Martin - Jesuit Priest - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmartinsj/ My Guncle and Me by Jonathan Merritt - https://www.amazon.com/My-Guncle-Me-Jonathan-Merritt/dp/0762485612 Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com  Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jonathan_merritt/  Twitter - https://twitter.com/JonathanMerritt Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy.  Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jen and award-winning author, Kelly Barnhill, discuss the powerful themes and inspirations behind her genre-defying book "When Women Were Dragons." Sparked by her outrage during the Kavanaugh hearings, Barnhill created a bold metaphor where women transform into dragons to escape societal oppression. In this conversation, she delves into her controversial ending that ultimately represents the multitude of paths to female empowerment. Barnhill also examines the dangerous historical pattern of silencing trauma and marginalized voices, from the 1918 flu to violent racial tensions. Jen and Kelly discuss: “When Women Were Dragons’" exploration of women transforming into dragons as a metaphor for rebelling against oppression and societal constraints. The ending and how it represents there are multiple valid paths for women's empowerment - some transformative, others finding power in conventional roles. Highlights about the historical pattern of silencing traumatic events and oppression of marginalized groups. Portrayals of womanhood as expansive and defying rigid societal definitions of what a woman is or can be. Novel Summary: "When Women Were Dragons" by Kelly Barnhill is a feminist fantasy novel that explores themes of female empowerment, societal repression, and transformation. Set in an alternate 1950s America, the story revolves around a mysterious event known as the "Mass Dragoning of 1955," where a significant number of women across the country inexplicably turn into dragons and fly away, leaving behind their human lives. The protagonist, Alex Green, navigates life in the aftermath of this event. She grows up in a society that tries to suppress and erase the memory of the dragonings, facing the stigma and secrecy surrounding the topic. Alex's journey involves uncovering family secrets, particularly those related to her aunt Marla, who was one of the women who transformed. As Alex learns more about her aunt's life and the circumstances of the dragonings, she begins to understand the broader implications of the event and its connection to women's liberation and agency. * * * Guest’s Links: Kelly’s Website - https://kellybarnhill.wordpress.com/ Kelly’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/insufferable_blabbermouth/ Kelly’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/kellybarnhill Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Girl Who Drank the Moon by Kelly Barnhill - https://bit.ly/3Vd01m3 The Book of Dragons: An Anthology - https://bit.ly/4bO3ldN Kavanaugh Hearing - https://supreme.justia.com/justices/brett-m-kavanaugh/ 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic - https://bit.ly/3ysjfvX The Book of Love: A Novel by Kelly Link - https://bit.ly/4btgQzN Nettle & Bone - https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250824776/nettlebone Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/  Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/  Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy.  Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week’s top episode from the archives is our number one most listened to episode. In a profoundly moving encore episode, Jen Hatmaker shares the story of interviewing her daughter, Sydney, as Sydney shared her emotional coming out story. This raw conversation follows Sydney as she vulnerably shares her journey of accepting herself as gay while still holding onto her faith–and we’re very excited to share this again during Pride Month as part of our Queer Futures series. Jen reintroduces the episode reflecting on what’s changed since this conversation and how it’s affected her community. Three years later, this episode remains an incredible force, sparking deep discussions around LGBTQ+ issues and Christianity in our community. Jen recalls the immense reach and impact this episode evoked - from mending broken family relationships to causing church leaders to reevaluate their approach. As Jen reflects on Sydney’s growth, it’s a beautiful reminder that embracing authenticity allows people to flourish. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I was just scared, and alone. And I wanted to have it all. I wanted to have my family, and God, and my future. And I didn't think I'd be able to have it all.” -Sydney Hatmaker “It doesn't matter how loving you are, or what emphasis on Scripture you come with. That's not enough if you're not fully accepting them as children of God.” -Sydney Hatmaker “Your allyship can't be about you, and it can't be performative, and it has to be for everybody. And it has to be about love.” -Sydney Hatmaker Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy.  Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this emotionally charged last episode in our For the Love of the Matriarchy series, Jen shares an intimate and profound conversation with Christine Blasey Ford, who came into the public eye when she testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee on September 27th, 2018, while it was considering the nomination of Judge Brett Kavanaugh to the United States Supreme Court; describing an alleged sexual assault by the Supreme Court nominee that took place at a high school party in the 80s. Christine, with brave vulnerability, opens up about her harrowing experience in the aftermath of her testimony and the tsunami of public scrutiny she faced. Through her story, we're reminded of the incredible power of women when we come together, support one another, and find our collective voice against injustices. This episode is not just a dialogue; it's a clarion call to all women to connect, share, and empower each other in a world that often seeks to silence us. Christine shares with Jen: the moment she heard that Brett Kavanaugh was on a short list of Supreme Court justice nominees and the immediate reaction that she needed those in power to know the truth the emotional toll the aftermath of the experience took on Christine and her family, and the safety measures they had to employ because of constant death threats why she decided to write a book, One Way Back, to tell the story now, citing what she learned through the experience and what she knows now about the many other women in history who have also spoken their truth about sexual harassment and assault the incredible amount of support she received from women and sexual assault survivors in the form of letters, which carried her through some of the most difficult moments Jen and Christine's conversation underscores a crucial message: when women connect, we're not just powerful together; we're unstoppable. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “It took many years to feel that I was ready to say something and to break the silence. I had been silent for so long. I was feeling a little bit guilty even, for having so much focus and learning about the contributions of so many other women in so many different venues who have spoken up against sexual harassment and sexual assault. And I just thought, 'Wow, I need to share all the things that I didn't know beforehand. Maybe I could share them and maybe it will help someone.'" - Christine Blasey Ford “The system can often work in ways that make [women] feel divided and makes us feel negatively towards each other. But when we actually connect, we're really powerful together.” - Christine Blasey Ford Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Christine’s Senate Judiciary Committee Testimony - https://bit.ly/3UzlYeof  One Way Back: A Memoir by Christine Blasey Ford - https://bit.ly/4dHlk7C Washington Post Article featuring Christine Blasey Ford - https://bit.ly/4bjFNh3 Guest’s Links: Christine’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/christine_talkinout/ Christine’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/fordchristine66 Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy.  Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we’re diving into the profound biological, psychological and social shifts experienced when becoming a mother - a process known as "matrescence.” Jen sits down with science journalist, Lucy Jones, who experienced a seismic identity shift that arose after the birth of her first child.   Lucy and Jen unpack groundbreaking neuroscience research and they expose the deep-rooted myths and unrealistic expectations surrounding modern motherhood. From the minimizing of postpartum struggles to the pressure of "natural birthing" ideals, Lucy reveals how these systemic fictions can breed shame, isolation and maternal mental health crises. Jen and Lucy discuss: The concept of "matrescence" - the biological, psychological and social transition to becoming a mother that renders profound identity changes How modern cultural myths and idealized notions of motherhood as blissful and "natural" can be deeply alienating and contribute to maternal mental health issues The systemic lack of scientific research and societal rituals to prepare and support women through the seismic transformation of matrescence The need to construct new narratives, share vulnerable experiences, and build community care around the modern realities of the matrescence * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “[Matrescence] is a very simple concept that means the process of becoming a mother. The word is a little bit like 'adolescence'. It was coined by the late American anthropologist Dana Rafael in the 70's. She also coined the word 'doula'. She first wrote about it in an essay collection published in 1974 where she talks about how, in most societies and cultures across the world, people have always had a sense that a mother is born when a baby is born. But she also describes your identity, your social relationships, your roles, your everyday life, your mind, your psychology, and your emotions." - Lucy Jones Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Matrescence by Lucy Jones - https://bit.ly/4dDYI83 Foxes Unearthed by Lucy Jones - https://bit.ly/44E9Uxp Losing Eden by Lucy Jones - https://bit.ly/4byVO2k Dana Rafael (an American Anthropologist) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Raphael  “The Birth of a Mother” (A New York Times Article by Alexandra Sacks) - https://bit.ly/4bow0WK 2017 NIH Article on Pregnancy Leading to Changes in the Brain - https://bit.ly/3UAGiMK Of Woman Born by Adrienne Rich - https://wwnorton.com/books/Of-Woman-Born/ Andrea O’Reilly - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_O'Reilly Guest’s Links: Lucy’s Website: https://lucyfjones.com/ Lucy’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/lucyjones Lucy’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lucyfjones/ Lucy’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lucyjonesbooks/ Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy.  Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode of the Matriarchy series, we explore how deeply ingrained patriarchal narratives can create a policing effect on the behavior of women.  Author, Elise Loehnen, discusses her book "On Our Best Behavior" which examines how concepts like the seven deadly sins have historically been used to restrict women's behavior and police their adherence to an idealized form of "goodness." Loehnen unpacks the insidious ways women are culturally conditioned from a young age to suppress normal human drives like anger, ambition, and sexuality. And how disrupting rigid gender stereotypes is important when raising the next generation in order to build a more compassionate world.  Jen and Elise discuss: How women are culturally conditioned and expected to embody "goodness" while men are oriented toward power  How concepts like the "seven deadly sins" have historically been used as a patriarchal "punch card" to police women's behavior Why raising boys to have an emotional inner life nurtures positive identity development The current era of politics that calls for women to challenge the patriarchal system while also having compassionate dialogue to build a new, care-centered world where everyone can flourish * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Women are trained for goodness and men are trained for power.” - Elise Loehnen “The worst thing for a woman is reputational harm--just the assigning of her badness. Bad mother. Toxic coworker. Toxic boss. Unkind. She says the wrong thing. And it's sort of impossible to defend yourself against that. We have zero tolerance, and it's very scary.” - Elise Loehnen "We need a culture where the men are like, 'I would like to be more like women. I need to be caring. I want to be nurturing and creative. And yes, I can be strong and I can be masculine, but I also need this underdeveloped muscle.'" - Elise Loehnen Resources Mentioned in This Episode: On Our Best Behavior by Elise Loehnen - https://bit.ly/44tz41D Goop - https://goop.com For the Love of Being Seen and Heard ft. Lori Gottlieb - https://bit.ly/4b8YT9C Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb - https://bit.ly/3JO7FOn Evagrius Ponticus (Fourth Century Christian Monk) - https://bit.ly/4b7zEV5 Pope Gregory on the 7 Deadly Sins - https://bit.ly/3y1J1XK Harvey Weinstein Abuse Cases - https://bit.ly/4b5ktM5 Carol Gilligan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Gilligan In a Different Voice by Carol Gilligan - https://bit.ly/3JQ9IBh   Human Voice by Carol Gilligan - https://bit.ly/3UQ1Rcn Andrew Tate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Tate Order, Disorder, Reorder (An idea Developed by Richard Rohr) - https://bit.ly/44xzHqK For the Love of The Enneagram ft. Richard Rohr - https://bit.ly/3QzzZaW Loretta Ross - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loretta_Ross Guest’s Links: Elise’s Website - https://www.eliseloehnen.com/ Elise’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/eliseloehnen/ Elise’s Twitter - https://www.twitter.com/eloehnen Elise’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/EliseLoehnen/ Elise’s LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/elise-loehnen-b867523/ Pulling the Thread (Elise’s Stubstack Blog) - https://eliseloehnen.substack.com/ Pulling the Thread (Elise’s Podcast) - https://www.eliseloehnen.com/episodes Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy.  Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jen and Isabel Allende discuss her novel, Violeta, and why Allende makes her bold choices in characters, events, and settings. Allende shares her fascinating personal background - born in Peru, living as a refugee, and eventually immigrating to the U.S. where she began her writing career. Allende explains how Violeta's story was inspired by her own mother's life and letters, which Allende has meticulously preserved over decades. The author discusses how Violeta's complicated romantic relationships and experiences of political upheaval mirror Allende's own life. Particularly compelling moments include: Allende's description and showing of the extensive archive of her mother's letters The author's insights on the challenges women writers face, having to work harder than men to achieve respect Allende's personal experiences with family tragedy that informed the novel The author's delight in crafting the "villain" character of Julián, as well as the beloved nanny character based on Allende's own housekeeper Overall, you’ll hear a dynamic conversation between Jen and Isabel on life, love, and loss.  Novel Summary: The novel follows the life of Violeta, who is born in 1920 in the aftermath of World War I and the onset of Spanish flu pandemic. The story traces Violeta's tumultuous life as she navigates historic events, including the Great Depression forcing her family into poverty and a relocation to a remote part of their South American homeland. Structured through a series of letters Violeta writes to her grandson, the narrative portrays her resilience, passion, and humor against the backdrop of major 20th century historical events and upheavals, including women's rights struggles. The story arcs through Violeta's experiences of love, heartbreak, and the ebb and flow of wealth, set against the sweeping historical context of an unnamed South American country. * * * Guest’s Links: Isabel’s Website - https://www.isabelallende.com/en  Isabel’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/allendeisabel/  Isabel’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/isabellallende Isabel’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/isabelallende/  Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode: List of Isabel’s Books - https://www.isabelallende.com/en/books  Violeta by Isabel Allende - ​​https://www.isabelallende.com/en/book/violeta  James by Percival Everett - https://www.amazon.com/James-Novel-Percival-Everett/dp/0385550367  Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/  Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/  Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For this special bonus episode, Jen talks with WNBA star, Brittney Griner, who shares her powerful story of resilience after she was wrongfully detained in Russian prisons for nearly a year. Brittney provides a heartbreaking firsthand account of the inhumane conditions she endured, from the lack of legal rights and translators to cruel psychological tactics by guards. She opens up about the pivotal role her faith played in giving her mental strength to survive. Brittney also discusses the ongoing trauma she has faced since returning home, and the renewed sense of motivation to use her voice and platform to advocate for other detainees abroad still seeking freedom.  Jen and Brittney discuss: Griner's harrowing account of being imprisoned in Russia and how she’s fighting to get more US prisoners home The pivotal role her faith and reading the Bible played in giving her strength to survive mentally and emotionally. Her candid discussion of the ongoing trauma she's working through since returning to the U.S. Her optimism about the WNBA's rising popularity to force meaningful change in addressing the glaring pay gap with men's basketball. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "My biggest fear was the fear of being forgotten." - Brittney Griner "We feel like we're in control a lot in our everyday lives. But being over there, I was in a place where I needed help. I couldn't control anything. It was out of my hands. I had to rely on something, or I would have gone crazy...I would have Bible study on Sundays and I think that's what got me through, honestly." - Brittney Griner "We need everybody to buy into [the WNBA]. We need to challenge companies to stop just checking a box and saying, 'Oh, we fight for equality. We had a month. We had some shirts.' That's a step. But we need you to put dollars down to make a difference." - Brittney Griner Resources Mentioned in this Bonus Episode:  Caitlin Clark - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitlin_Clark “It Gets Better Project” - https://bit.ly/4al2EaZ Coming Home by Brittney Griner - https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Home-Brittney-Griner/dp/0593801342 Guest Link: Website - https://wearebg.org/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/brittneyyevettegriner Twitter - https://twitter.com/brittneygriner Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/BrittneyGriner Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Continuing In our For the Love of The Matriarchy series, Jen talks with powerful women who are taking innovative approaches to their work, their relationships, and their joy. Bozoma Saint John is a trailblazing marketing executive whose career has taken her to the heights of companies like Pepsi, Apple, Uber and Netflix. But her path to becoming a "badass" has been one marked by profound loss and upheaval.  From the loss of her first child and her husband's battle with cancer, to being told she's "too much" by those closest to her, Bozoma opens up about summoning resilience from life's lowest lows. She discusses redefining what true strength looks like, embracing authenticity even when it ruffles the status quo, and pioneering a collaborative model of single parenthood that makes space for her daughter's voice. Jen and Bozoma discuss: Embracing authenticity even when it ruffles the status quo and offends those in power Redefining strength not as impenetrable toughness, but as the pliability in experiencing brokenness yet still rising again The complexities of reconciling life's tragedies with its gifts and holding space for gratitude amid loss Pioneering a collaborative, trust-based model of single parenthood that makes space for her daughter's voice and needs For anyone craving inspiration to honor their scars while uncompromisingly claiming their power, this is a master class. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Privilege is a reliable enemy of equality. And it is sometimes insidious the lengths we’ll go to protect it because we're still benefiting [from it].” - Bozoma Saint John "You don't have to have had the same losses I've had or suffered the same way I suffered to prove that you are worthy of the scars that you bear. You have them and it's okay." - Bozoma Saint John “My parenting has changed because I need to make space for [my daughter] to be honest with me about what she needs so that I can be the mother that she needs; not necessarily the mother that I think is needed.” - Bozoma Saint John "The most amazing thing about being human is how incredibly tied we are to each other. And it is a beautiful thing that even through our pain, we are still tied together as human beings." - Bozoma Saint John Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Bozoma’s Marketing Hall of Fame Induction: https://marketinghalloffame.org/inductees-leading-marketers/bozoma-saint-john-2022-marketing-inductee/ 2021 Most Influential CMO: https://www.forbes.com/connect/event/2021-wmi-cmos/ Ambassador to the African Diaspora and Special Envoy to the President of Ghana: https://bit.ly/4bhmVig. Guest’s Links: Bozoma’s Website: https://www.bozomasaintjohn.com/ Bozoma’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SaintBoz Bozoma’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/badassboz Bozoma’s Instagram: http://instagram.com/badassboz Bozoma’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bozoma-saint-john-0305441/ Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy.  Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices